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Utopia Talk / Movie Talk / The Walking Dead (Cont. 10)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 10 22:46:08
show night! [spoiler talk]

...once again i'm annoyed :p

why didn't Maggie's group scatter into the woods at the first sign of trouble

why didn't Rick stay & shoot Negan through the window

why are the power shifts so dramatic?... have to assume it's going to go the other way next episode

why are both sides working so hard to keep their enemies alive?

are we going to learn what Eugene did? and unless Dwight sold out the lookouts, not sure how they can explain the loss of them (& not sure why you'd tell Dwight about them anyway)
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Dec 12 14:19:05
Previous Thread:
http://www...hread=78846&time=1512534162734

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@S8E08: "How It's Gotta Be"

Aww :'( .. poor [character hidden for spoiler purposes since this comment is still pretty close to the top of the thread]. I thought that he must have been bitten during that fight when he was helping transport the new guy, but that scene ended with him being relieved, so they hid that pretty well... it explains why he was willing to die via Negan, and he probably *was* being honest during that wall conversation even though he knew that his plan was going forward... That ending scene was sad :'( .. and I'm sure his note to Rick will be emotional too.
..And more chiaroscuro in that ending tunnel scene; it looked like a Rembrandt painting. Not sure if they had any specific reference in mind, but Judith's outline sort of seemed like the little girl from "The Night Watch" ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/The_Nightwatch_by_Rembrandt.jpg ).

Good job to Enid for firing without looking :| .. not out of character or anything, but it was still a stupid move. Our post-apocalyptic hellscape survivors need better training! ;p

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"why didn't Maggie's group scatter into the woods at the first sign of trouble"

Yeah that was dumb. That was supposed to be an "element of surprise" situation where they were so caught off guard by the Saviors having escaped that they didn't know what to do, but for that to make sense the Saviors should have swarmed from both sides of the road, not just from behind them. When Jesus handed over his weapon I was like, "Really?? No fight here?" Still, I guess it can be justified because it may also have been some more regression from feeling hopeless at a big tide change moment (a repeat of their first meeting with Negan in the woods). Maggie was the one who should have given orders to attack, but she froze, maybe because she was reminded of how powerless she felt watching Glenn die. She's still trying to rise above that trauma... so I'd sort of give it to the show writers on that one. Maggie needs to be the type of person who won't freeze anymore, but she's not there yet. Killing that Savior (re-living her trauma and taking control of it) means that she will get there.

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"why didn't Rick stay & shoot Negan through the window"

True! Negan only had Lucille, so Rick could have fired off a few rounds there. It would have been a risk running out of ammo and being left unarmed though.. hmm..

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"why are both sides working so hard to keep their enemies alive?"

It makes sense from a punishment perspective! The whole thing they've driven in here has been the idea of traumatizing people into obeying by offering public spectacles of brutal punishment. Negan even had that speech about killing "the right people at the right time." It's about theatrics and visibility, not just killing enemies. They can't just kill the King or Rick and be done with him, they need to kill him in front of his people so that they shatter his image (make him just meat and kill any exulted idea of him).

Pretty sure I mentioned this before, but I think these writers have been sampling directly from Foucault's "Discipline/Surveil and Punish" — lots of emphasis on making examples of just a few deaths in order to control the masses. And on the other side, Rick wants to kill Negan himself but maybe only to overcome the spectacle trauma that Negan gave him (Rick refusing to be controlled by brutality). Maggie sort of understood that to overcome Negan's hold that she'd have to execute Negan peeps, but she probably made it too quick by simply shooting that prisoner (maybe not brutal enough?), though that death was at least surprising enough for the remaining prisoners that they may fall in line. It seems like the only way out of Negan's control is by making people unafraid of brutality and horror (e.g., Rick's speech on top of that car about how they're trying to build a better world than Negan's 'control via trauma' one). That was starting to appear with the Kingdom peeps refusing to cooperate and also with that Savior Lieutenant being reluctant in his duties (again). The Kingdom peeps hate the executioner more than they fear the punishment, so the public spectacle has already started losing its power.

Aside about that Kingdom scene: I get that they're showing that Muslim woman ("Nabila") to really push how diverse post-apocalyptic survivors can be (they keep focusing on her in the Kingdom scenes — not just in this episode either), and whatever, that hasn't broken the story at all.. but.. I take issue with her being so fat ;D .. cardio is a key survivor ingredient, and I doubt that she has it. It was also pretty unbelievable that she was able to punch a Savior in the chest and disarm him. She doesn't look like a fat but strong person, just a fat person. Tara's weight was already an issue, but Nabila is pushing it to the limits. Maybe outside the protection of the Kingdom walls she'll finally get run down by zombies ;p .. and apparently Alanna Masterson (Tara) has defended herself against "body shaming", but I'm not talking about IRL shaming of celebrities and public figures for being fat. Like sure, I understand that many people get fat when having children. What I'm saying is that within the show physics those fat people shouldn't somehow be given capabilities beyond their body types. Anyways..

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"are we going to learn what Eugene did?"

You mean to get the Saviors the upper hand? They revealed that he manufactured a bunch of bullets so that the Saviors could go full-auto on the zombies (that was his scene last episode where he was listening to gunfire while crying because he knew the consequences for Rick's group), and we also know that he led the rest of the zombies away with an air horn contraption (another RC plane?), so I'm not sure how much else there is to know.

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"unless Dwight sold out the lookouts, not sure how they can explain the loss of them (& not sure why you'd tell Dwight about them anyway"

You mean the lookouts from the first episode of the season? Dwight would simply know about them because he's involved with security.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Dec 12 15:28:02
i may have misunderstood some of Eugene's part... he said he needed his machines so i assumed he would be doing the bullet making -after- they got rid of the zombies, also i don't recall air horns at all (but my memory is bad & i'm not always paying attention :)

by 'lookouts': it sounded like they had been monitoring the saviour building from all sides (Rick radio'd to north,south,east,west for reports, and no one there) and no one reported them escaping their situation

i think Maggie killed the guy to stuff him in the box as warning to the invaders coming (rather than to get those people in line necessarily)

as to the preservation of life... trying to keep everyone around isn't working :p i'm a bit concerned about Rick deciding to make nice w/ Negan or something to honor Coral... there needs to be mass death!
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Dec 12 19:33:14
Negan *has* been showing that he's got a soft side, so some kind of alliance wouldn't be totally out of the question. I would prefer the mass death too, though :(

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"also i don't recall air horns at all"
Oh that was during one of the scenes where Maggie was talking to that Negan lieutenant. Loud music starts playing in the distance, and he talks about how Saviors have been leading the herd away. I thought the phrase "air horns" was used, but I might have to re-watch the episode for that :D

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"i think Maggie killed the guy to stuff him in the box as warning to the invaders coming (rather than to get those people in line necessarily)"
Same difference! ;) .. either way she's using execution as an example/warning.

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"by 'lookouts': it sounded like they had been monitoring the saviour building from all sides (Rick radio'd to north,south,east,west for reports, and no one there) and no one reported them escaping their situation"

Oh yeah! That was weird. You'd think there would be some info on that... I guess they figure that once the Saviors finished killing the walkers that they were able to unload on the lookouts with no problem. I think Morgan was one of the lookouts, and he was pictured maybe about to help the King, so at least he got away..
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Dec 12 19:41:12
yeah I recall the music playing or something, but seems like they need something to explain how it worked specifically... and how it foiled the surveillance

they certainly had a lot of faith in the lookouts given how easily their own home bases fell
The Children
Member
Mon Dec 25 13:46:23
when is last episode so i can finally watch this shit again
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