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Utopia Talk / Movie Talk / The Walking Dead (Cont. 10)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 10 22:46:08
show night! [spoiler talk]

...once again i'm annoyed :p

why didn't Maggie's group scatter into the woods at the first sign of trouble

why didn't Rick stay & shoot Negan through the window

why are the power shifts so dramatic?... have to assume it's going to go the other way next episode

why are both sides working so hard to keep their enemies alive?

are we going to learn what Eugene did? and unless Dwight sold out the lookouts, not sure how they can explain the loss of them (& not sure why you'd tell Dwight about them anyway)
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Dec 12 14:19:05
Previous Thread:
http://www...hread=78846&time=1512534162734

..
@S8E08: "How It's Gotta Be"

Aww :'( .. poor [character hidden for spoiler purposes since this comment is still pretty close to the top of the thread]. I thought that he must have been bitten during that fight when he was helping transport the new guy, but that scene ended with him being relieved, so they hid that pretty well... it explains why he was willing to die via Negan, and he probably *was* being honest during that wall conversation even though he knew that his plan was going forward... That ending scene was sad :'( .. and I'm sure his note to Rick will be emotional too.
..And more chiaroscuro in that ending tunnel scene; it looked like a Rembrandt painting. Not sure if they had any specific reference in mind, but Judith's outline sort of seemed like the little girl from "The Night Watch" ( http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/The_Nightwatch_by_Rembrandt.jpg ).

Good job to Enid for firing without looking :| .. not out of character or anything, but it was still a stupid move. Our post-apocalyptic hellscape survivors need better training! ;p

..
"why didn't Maggie's group scatter into the woods at the first sign of trouble"

Yeah that was dumb. That was supposed to be an "element of surprise" situation where they were so caught off guard by the Saviors having escaped that they didn't know what to do, but for that to make sense the Saviors should have swarmed from both sides of the road, not just from behind them. When Jesus handed over his weapon I was like, "Really?? No fight here?" Still, I guess it can be justified because it may also have been some more regression from feeling hopeless at a big tide change moment (a repeat of their first meeting with Negan in the woods). Maggie was the one who should have given orders to attack, but she froze, maybe because she was reminded of how powerless she felt watching Glenn die. She's still trying to rise above that trauma... so I'd sort of give it to the show writers on that one. Maggie needs to be the type of person who won't freeze anymore, but she's not there yet. Killing that Savior (re-living her trauma and taking control of it) means that she will get there.

..
"why didn't Rick stay & shoot Negan through the window"

True! Negan only had Lucille, so Rick could have fired off a few rounds there. It would have been a risk running out of ammo and being left unarmed though.. hmm..

..
"why are both sides working so hard to keep their enemies alive?"

It makes sense from a punishment perspective! The whole thing they've driven in here has been the idea of traumatizing people into obeying by offering public spectacles of brutal punishment. Negan even had that speech about killing "the right people at the right time." It's about theatrics and visibility, not just killing enemies. They can't just kill the King or Rick and be done with him, they need to kill him in front of his people so that they shatter his image (make him just meat and kill any exulted idea of him).

Pretty sure I mentioned this before, but I think these writers have been sampling directly from Foucault's "Discipline/Surveil and Punish" — lots of emphasis on making examples of just a few deaths in order to control the masses. And on the other side, Rick wants to kill Negan himself but maybe only to overcome the spectacle trauma that Negan gave him (Rick refusing to be controlled by brutality). Maggie sort of understood that to overcome Negan's hold that she'd have to execute Negan peeps, but she probably made it too quick by simply shooting that prisoner (maybe not brutal enough?), though that death was at least surprising enough for the remaining prisoners that they may fall in line. It seems like the only way out of Negan's control is by making people unafraid of brutality and horror (e.g., Rick's speech on top of that car about how they're trying to build a better world than Negan's 'control via trauma' one). That was starting to appear with the Kingdom peeps refusing to cooperate and also with that Savior Lieutenant being reluctant in his duties (again). The Kingdom peeps hate the executioner more than they fear the punishment, so the public spectacle has already started losing its power.

Aside about that Kingdom scene: I get that they're showing that Muslim woman ("Nabila") to really push how diverse post-apocalyptic survivors can be (they keep focusing on her in the Kingdom scenes — not just in this episode either), and whatever, that hasn't broken the story at all.. but.. I take issue with her being so fat ;D .. cardio is a key survivor ingredient, and I doubt that she has it. It was also pretty unbelievable that she was able to punch a Savior in the chest and disarm him. She doesn't look like a fat but strong person, just a fat person. Tara's weight was already an issue, but Nabila is pushing it to the limits. Maybe outside the protection of the Kingdom walls she'll finally get run down by zombies ;p .. and apparently Alanna Masterson (Tara) has defended herself against "body shaming", but I'm not talking about IRL shaming of celebrities and public figures for being fat. Like sure, I understand that many people get fat when having children. What I'm saying is that within the show physics those fat people shouldn't somehow be given capabilities beyond their body types. Anyways..

..
"are we going to learn what Eugene did?"

You mean to get the Saviors the upper hand? They revealed that he manufactured a bunch of bullets so that the Saviors could go full-auto on the zombies (that was his scene last episode where he was listening to gunfire while crying because he knew the consequences for Rick's group), and we also know that he led the rest of the zombies away with an air horn contraption (another RC plane?), so I'm not sure how much else there is to know.

..
"unless Dwight sold out the lookouts, not sure how they can explain the loss of them (& not sure why you'd tell Dwight about them anyway"

You mean the lookouts from the first episode of the season? Dwight would simply know about them because he's involved with security.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Dec 12 15:28:02
i may have misunderstood some of Eugene's part... he said he needed his machines so i assumed he would be doing the bullet making -after- they got rid of the zombies, also i don't recall air horns at all (but my memory is bad & i'm not always paying attention :)

by 'lookouts': it sounded like they had been monitoring the saviour building from all sides (Rick radio'd to north,south,east,west for reports, and no one there) and no one reported them escaping their situation

i think Maggie killed the guy to stuff him in the box as warning to the invaders coming (rather than to get those people in line necessarily)

as to the preservation of life... trying to keep everyone around isn't working :p i'm a bit concerned about Rick deciding to make nice w/ Negan or something to honor Coral... there needs to be mass death!
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Dec 12 19:33:14
Negan *has* been showing that he's got a soft side, so some kind of alliance wouldn't be totally out of the question. I would prefer the mass death too, though :(

..
"also i don't recall air horns at all"
Oh that was during one of the scenes where Maggie was talking to that Negan lieutenant. Loud music starts playing in the distance, and he talks about how Saviors have been leading the herd away. I thought the phrase "air horns" was used, but I might have to re-watch the episode for that :D

..
"i think Maggie killed the guy to stuff him in the box as warning to the invaders coming (rather than to get those people in line necessarily)"
Same difference! ;) .. either way she's using execution as an example/warning.

..
"by 'lookouts': it sounded like they had been monitoring the saviour building from all sides (Rick radio'd to north,south,east,west for reports, and no one there) and no one reported them escaping their situation"

Oh yeah! That was weird. You'd think there would be some info on that... I guess they figure that once the Saviors finished killing the walkers that they were able to unload on the lookouts with no problem. I think Morgan was one of the lookouts, and he was pictured maybe about to help the King, so at least he got away..
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Dec 12 19:41:12
yeah I recall the music playing or something, but seems like they need something to explain how it worked specifically... and how it foiled the surveillance

they certainly had a lot of faith in the lookouts given how easily their own home bases fell
The Children
Member
Mon Dec 25 13:46:23
when is last episode so i can finally watch this shit again
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Feb 25 22:35:08

***** new episode was tonight *****


SPOILER: carl slowly dies for 85 mins (not as entertaining as it sounds)... and Morgan executes his new signature move
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Feb 26 21:40:55
@S8E09: "Honor"

:'(
Much crying for this episode.. lots of emotional Carl scenes :'( .. a full hour for his death was a nice send-off too, like him soaking in his last living moments, making sure that the new guy wouldn't get blamed, passing the torch to Judith and.. to everyone, really. And more of that Renaissance-inspired cinematography in the church scene. Also jarring at first how they mixed his death scenes with Morgan's ultraviolence, but that of course started to smooth into their point about Morgan himself needing to see a future beyond all the killing. I wonder if Carl wrote him a letter or if Morgan was too distant.. looks like there will be more Carl via all of his messages. Enid's will probably be sad :(
Always morbid to compose your own death will, but it's one of the realest of the reals for moments: crushing illusions.

A nice sort of twist that the visions of the future were Carl's (or originated with him anyways), though the editing in the previous episodes now just means that he successfully passed on those visions to Rick.. and the reveal of Rick being shot as the explanation for the red-eyed foreshadowing/flash-forward scenes might mean that Negan won't get to be part of that utopia after all ;p (assuming that Rick tried to meet with Negan to stop the conflict, was shot (maybe even by Negan himself? Negan usually prefers hand weapons, so maybe not), and if Rick recovers then peeps will have to start dying again ;p

So now I'm just interested in the pacing! Like it would be cool if Rick were shot next episode (or the episode after, since I think they're going to Enid and Aaron's story next episode) so that there would be time left in the season for fallout, but maybe instead it'll be the season finale and he'll be recovered by season 9...

Good episode, I thought! Glad it's back in season :D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Feb 27 21:31:21
i fast-forwarded through Carl :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 06 00:38:11
"i fast-forwarded through Carl :p"

But he wrote you a letter! ;D

..
@@S8E10: "The Lost and the Plunderers"

Poor Michonne, trying to keep Carl's memory alive :(

Loving Simon's impatience and deterioration :D

Poor Jadin :( .. good rapid development for her there. She started using personal pronouns again and everything :) ... Looked like "Another Brick In The Wall" Pink Floyd reference too (all of her people walking into a meat grinder). The simple metaphor was probably just that her peeps' decision to follow her meant that they were just bricks in her plan, and her plan just got them all killed; their willingness to have their behavior codified (like Floyd's brainwashed students) meant dying by that same system/behavior. Becoming walkers and marching into the grinder just made that reality more clear and depressing, as metaphors do.. and for her on a personal level she got to see that metaphor first hand — a big summation of her leadership failures for her to reflect upon before taking vengeance. And the gore splashing on her painting was nice too.. like she was "painting" her own version of utopia with the lives of others.

Nice speech by Negan at the end. That reflects well off of the grinder walk too, since Rick's leadership really has gotten a lot of people killed. It's a pretty convincing argument except that people may live unsafely under Rick, but of course there's less fear and work-slavery with him than there is with Negan. Ending the episode like that could at least mean that Rick will mull things over and consider peace after all. Looks like he was wearing a grey shirt in that talk scene, and the flash-forward where he's been shot had him wearing a blue shirt, so it may be an episode or two before they discuss peace plans?
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 06 00:40:22
"like she was "painting" her own version of utopia with the lives of others."
(her attempted utopia becoming a dystopia or just becoming macabre when it was brought back to reality. The gore splashing and her using personal pronouns both being her facing that reality)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 06 22:38:38
i was disgusted by another 'you gotta give us all your weapons again'... 'okie dokie'

luckily Simon broke w/ Negan's plans and mixed it up... was starting to feel like i was in a repeating hell :p

and i too was confused as to why trash woman spoke English fine now

i hope Rick keeps it real... Negan's speech was ok except the part where he says keeping everyone safe is why he had to kill Rick's friends or something, didn't quite flow
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 06 23:16:46
i mean i guess we're supposed to assume the speech thing was some coping mechanism or something... but perhaps the actress just forgot
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Mar 12 15:59:14
"i was disgusted by another 'you gotta give us all your weapons again'... 'okie dokie'"

That did at least make sense for the junkyard peeps. They're total push-overs, so it wasn't a surprise that they'd surrender even while fully armed.

..
"i mean i guess we're supposed to assume the speech thing was some coping mechanism or something... but perhaps the actress just forgot"

I think that would fall squarely on the writers as a decision to have her character finally drop pretenses — doubtful that the actress would have just winged it there and that the director allowed a mistake to be filmed that way. Jadin thought that she'd made a new society that would be immune to the world, but she just found out otherwise.

..
@S8E11: "Dead or Alive or"

lol. All of Gabriel's annoying religious tones were worth it when the doctor got shot in front of him :D

Enid's reaction to Carl.. :'(

And yay! Time for some chemical warfare ;D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Mar 12 22:36:14
i was mostly joking about trash woman's speech, but yeah, it'd be the writers who forgot :p

Gabriel missed opportunities to mockingly tell the doc he should've had more faith (bear trap, dying)

i assume they aren't going to claim getting guts on you turns you since they wipe that stuff on themselves all the time... what are you guessing Negan is planning?
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 13 04:30:59
Yeah while the doc screamed in pain in the bear trap they should have shown Gabriel putting his hand on the doctor's head in a priestly way and saying something like, "God is all around us" or "God has shown you the path" XD

"what are you guessing Negan is planning?"
Since it sounds like Negan wants to infect peeps as a weapon, and Eugene suggested that they use trébuchets while the Saviors get their ammo replenished.. maybe spike balls covered in zombie gore will be launched over the Hilltop walls? Or maybe they wrap zombie heads in barb wire and launch *those*?? :D :D
That might be it for real. Have zombie heads trying to bite people while they roll around. Barb wire giving people little cuts and infecting them. Should be a fun siege :D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 13 11:35:05
i dunno seems like these mechanisms need more clearly defined :p ... i don't recall people worrying about sores or scratches when smearing themselves in stuff

& everyone's infected already so it's inside already... biting has been required so far, right? (to trigger early)

i suppose we can wait to see what they actually do :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 13 15:07:30
"i don't recall people worrying about sores or scratches when smearing themselves in stuff ... biting has been required so far, right?"

I don't remember if anyone at all has turned from just being scratched by a zombie's hands, but that might be why Negan was getting total coverage on his bat: he rubbed it on the zombie's chest and teeth, so some of that gore would have to do some zombie-fication to a living person (he was making that gore in effect the same thing as a bite). But his bat leads to why I think they'll need to use barb wire on their projectiles.. with the bite-to-turn situation they can't just get people covered in zombie blood, they'll probably need something that will break the skin too. So zombie blood + barbed projectiles = infected Hilltoppers ;D

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 20 00:04:27
-- new episode talk --

i'm still discontent over this blood-dipped weapon thing :p ...i demand more caution used by Depp in the other show now

seems they are working on changing the villain from Negan to the mustache guy so i guess that means Negan may become part of the team as Coral wanted... which would be weird so hopefully not...
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 20 00:11:42

...also, hopefully that's the last Rick/Negan combat w/ both escaping... a lot of weird behavior in that exchange, but at least the flaming bat & zombies was nice :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 20 03:51:52
@S9E12: "The Key"

"...i demand more caution used by Depp in the other show now"

I guess Depp didn't have any large open wounds :p

..
"seems they are working on changing the villain from Negan to the mustache guy"

I was surprised that Simon (mustache guy) survived this episode, so you may be right about him becoming something much bigger. Like I thought he'd get called out by an arriving Negan right in the middle of his speech.. definitely unexpected for me that Jadin somehow managed to be at the right place and abduct Negan, which stopped Simon's bashing for the moment. And Dwight was caught off guard by Simon's language switch (the "move on" thing turning out to be "[wipe them out and] move on" — that truck ride with Dwight and Simon was really enjoyable, btw.. Dwight not knowing the subtext of Simon having just killed all the trash peeps.. and Simon evolving into this belligerent killer ready to stand up to Negan).

..But I wonder if Simon will last even without Negan around. Dwight seemed to realize that he was personally responsible for making the Hilltop's situation even worse by replacing Negan with Simon, so Dwight killing Simon before the battle could make sense... but Simon already gave an agreeable order to the rest of the Saviors, so killing Simon might make no sense for Dwight (the attack would still happen).. in which case Simon lives longer.. except that the attack can't be successful because the Hilltop can't just get wiped out right now... that would be easy to write away if the Saviors return to base for a weapons switch, but it looks like they'll just continue to hilltop without interruption.. shit.. no idea! Next episode should be fun :D

That lady who wanted records and food was immediately annoying, and I hope that she dies really fucking soon. Her little side-kicks were also annoying, and I hope they die even sooner. Not sure who they think they're fooling with the intentionally deepened voices and the dumb sunglasses.

Also, Katelyn Nacon (Enid) really flopped in that scene with Michonne and Maggie in the Hilltop house.. terrible acting, yet they gave her a long take (long takes usually get reserved for better actors, which is why Emma Stone was poison to 2014's "Birdman"). Her steps forward, her breath before lines.. just bad. They were trying to communicate that Enid was getting aggressive enough with her want to kill/rob the new lady that Michonne felt that it was necessary to disarm Enid, but Nacon just couldn't get that scene to work. Really disappointing because after Carl her character had the most reason to be passionate right now.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 20 03:53:58
"...also, hopefully that's the last Rick/Negan combat w/ both escaping..."

Oh yeah! Totes :D .. especially because Negan once again made a window exit ;D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Mar 20 17:50:58
will be quite hard to explain Jadin finding Negan, not sure if they'll try :p Rick did make a lot of noise w/ his wild shooting and then there was the burning car... but still coming across an uneaten yet unconscious Negan is a stretch... especially since Rick couldn't even find him when talking to him :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Mar 20 20:28:36
It looks like she must have surprised Negan when he jumped out of the window and was trying to get to ground level, so she'd have to be watching them and waiting.. but yeah.. don't think they'll show what happened.. they may have made Negan too strong so they had to just hand wave to put him in a captivity situation :/
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Mar 26 22:10:28

-- new episode talk --

my complaining: seems like the zombies made a curious bee-line from the hospital area to the town hall or whatever that was... also one falling down a flight of stairs seems like it would have awoken people... and why must we have a new annoying kid right after losing the other one

and i sense you're not on board w/ my weapon-dipping complaints :p... but what about (what i think is a thing) that people who stabby stab others frequently cut themselves (or at least i know i've seen that on more than one crime type show)... so this phenomenon should have been known imo from all the zombie stabbing
Cherub Cow
Member
Wed Mar 28 01:22:23
@S9E13: "Do Not Send Us Astray"

@[lights getting knocked out moment] and Simon walking out in the open with his peeps:
Are you kidding? D: .. *spacing* people!
..not a particularly well-directed fight. Simon explained his thinking with his "they've run *before*" line, but you still can't line up your people without cover and just approach a defensive position... the only positive there was that the Saviors didn't get completely wiped out for being so stupid.

"seems like the zombies made a curious bee-line from the hospital area to the town hall"
I'd forgive them because it may have just been editing (so it seemed like a direct route) and also because after the attack it looked like everyone alive was huddled together in the house (as opposed to sleeping in the outdoor tents and such), so the walkers were probably attracted by people snoring and doing their sleep coughs ;)
..doesn't explain the bad sentries, though! An alarm should have been sounded well before people started screaming, but it looked like only one guard was on duty (though that guard *was* someone who had been infected)

"also one falling down a flight of stairs seems like it would have awoken people.."
+1
That should have been the moment when everyone woke up.. and if not at that moment then certainly when multiple walkers were walking in snarling.. very strange that a lot of the show crew probably looked at that scene while they were making it yet no one thought that was inconsistent? What?

"and why must we have a new annoying kid right after losing the other one"
+1
..and not even a good actor. Just an annoying idiot. Maybe he'll be Sophia-ed soon to make up for it ;p ... I expected that the really nice Savior/prisoner would say that *he* killed annoying kid's brother so that only he would die rather than the kid executing people for answers, but they avoided that altogether

..
"people who stabby stab others frequently cut themselves"

That could be explained with the depth of the cuts. Deeper cuts (like those caused by the Saviors trying to kill peeps) would mean a higher risk of infection, but cuts on the hands from stabbing walkers and slipping onto one's own blade might be a lower risk of infection. I don't think the show would go realistic enough for people to be cutting themselves though. If they did, maybe only Carol would be safe since she's had a trench knife for so long :D

..
Bummer about Tara! The obvious setup was that Dwight would kill Simon there (and luckily they didn't do that), but I was hoping that Simon would kill Tara and that Dwight would fail at stopping Simon — exposing his duplicity in the process — and have to stay at Hilltop. Instead it looks like they'll explain his actions there by him missing another shot (his target being Simon and the bow kicking like it did when he accidentally killed Tara's GF). Tara seems worried about infection, but it also seems apparent that Dwight would not have infected his arrows, so she'd be safe.. and she would have turned already anyways, so she should know that...

I liked that ending ("the cost" [camera switches to larger graveyard than before]) :D .. super depressing :D :D ..

..Looking at Morgan's "You know what it is"/"*you* were supposed to" hallucinations/conscience moments... From the story so far it's probably that Morgan feels like *he* has to be the one doing all the dirty work so that others won't become as twisted and haunted as himself, and he feels like he's failed annoying kid by that kid killing the Savior and starting himself on a road of Morgan-becoming.. but how long will annoying kid last anyways? ;D
Cherub Cow
Member
Wed Mar 28 01:35:49
Actually.. at my "Instead it looks like they'll explain his actions there by him missing another shot" ..they could also have it be that Simon aimed to only wound Tara slightly.. but that's a terrible idea on his part unless he's an amazing shot.. so I hope they don't go that route.

Also: kind of stupid that they introduced some pro-doctor with whom the new doctor could interact. That's thin writing, since it's basically just an excuse to give new doctor a development scene that could get him past his timid demeanor; they've been desperate for doctors, yet they materialized one just for that scene, having her die almost immediately..
Cherub Cow
Member
Wed Mar 28 01:42:44
..sorry to Seb-spam with multi-posts. Last one, I promise ;D
Looking again at the Simon/Tara/Dwight scene.. it looks like Dwight was aiming directly at Tara (not at Simon), so I guess they'll say that Dwight was trying to wound her so that Simon couldn't kill/infect her with the axe. Maybe he thought it was too risky to kill Simon in front of the other Saviors? hmm..
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Mar 28 10:51:21
yeah, my assessment was Dwight wounding her to alert her to Simon coming but also be convincing to Simon that he wasn't just trying to alert her or something

and yeah, i forgot to add to my complaining how ineffective these guns are :p the whole group packed together in an open field fired on from an elevated position... and seemed like most ran away ok :p

maybe Morgan will assume the hallucinations mean he has to kill the kid :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Fri Mar 30 19:16:54
"maybe Morgan will assume the hallucinations mean he has to kill the kid :p"

That would be a fun outcome :D
..I actually haven't really thought much about where Morgan is going. He's clearly struggling with his old insane self and his more controlled self, but I wonder if that means that he'll just do something suicidal and crazy (like start killing Saviors even after a pact is reached with Negan), or if, yeah, he'll kill the kid or some other Hilltop/Kingdom character...

..
"and yeah, i forgot to add to my complaining how ineffective these guns are :p the whole group packed together in an open field fired on from an elevated position... and seemed like most ran away ok :p "

That wasn't too consistent on writing aim either! It's okay that they've shown that only a few people on the show can aim effectively at distances greater than maybe 50 feet (e.g., Abraham, Rick, and Sasha), but close-up like that with multiple shooters... there should have been heavy casualties for sure. I wonder if they lost show writers on this episode or something..
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Apr 02 18:48:03
@S8E14: "Still Gotta Mean Something"

(btw, just realized that I labeled episodes 11 and 12 "S9" not season 8.. oops :p )

"Because my son was there".. good line :) .. and Rick looking in the mirror like Carl wouldn't approve :p

Lots of good treatment of trying to satisfy blood rage vs. trying to heal.. Rick really loving the "killing spree" stage of grieving.. and also a good flip to see him deliver his same "my word" line, but where he was sincere before (in S8E03) he obviously didn't care this time. Time for Rick to go back on Carl's road now that Rick has gone down his own road a little and has seen how it makes him look. Nice dramatic irony in him reading Carl's letter knowing that Carl's method gets Rick shot in the chest ;D

Time for Dwight and Simon's comeuppance! :D
Negan's mystery pickup would have to have been Negan's "Laura" soldier (had to look up her name) who escaped Dwight's double cross ambush. So should be fun to see how Negan arranges his surprise party for Dwight, Simon, and Simon's kill crew. More burning? More bashing? Burnings for some, bashings for others? ;D Negan is all about theatrical execution, so this next one should be really good :D
..maybe they'll do a "Last of the Mohicans"/"Game of Thrones: [Mance Rayder burning]" where Daryl will see Dwight being tortured to death and will intervene by speeding Dwight's death with a kill shot... so Daryl will get to kill Dwight after all, but it will hurt him to do so. Probably that decision (or others like it) will also stop their plan to kill Eugene for the moment. So many options :D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 03 22:16:26
Morgan & Rick saved the series, stay on that path! :p

with that weird music, i held some hope Morgan was going to kill the kid at their reunion :p

i agree the person picked up was probably the Dwight escapee

not sure why trash lady was living in trash when apparently she has helicopter people connections
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Apr 09 16:28:12
@S8E15: "Worth"

Eugene throwing up was fun :D ... like a horned lizard shooting blood out of its eye to escape or something ;p
They made it seem like he just went fully Negan now that he knows that the Hilltop would treat him worse than Negan has, and of course he ran back to redouble his efforts.. but Eugene is so duplicitous and his actor (Josh McDermitt) so noncommittal to the role that it could equally be a scheme to make Negan lose the battle via malfunctioning ammunition. Getting Gabriel involved again would facilitate the ammo failures, but personally I think it would be shallow writing if Negan doesn't test samples of the ammunition for function before going on an operation like this — i.e., "Inspect what you expect"

Difficult to care about Aaron's work with the Amazons, but it looks like the Amazons will show up in time to help (so Rick's group walks into the ambush, then the Amazon's flank). If Eugene *does* decide to sabotage samples of the ammo (maybe even calculating how much he can slip by to hurt the Saviors while still passing quality checks?), then the firearm-less Amazons could be pretty effective. After a few fatal backfires in the Savior weapons, the Saviors would lose confidence in the ammo and be forced to go hand-to-hand..

The last pieces coming together on Rick's gun shot wound! Rick fully vulnerable but Negan fully in war mode. Guess Rick should have read Carl's letter sooner; Rick already screwed up the possibility of peace with that basement fight, so Negan heard Carl's letter too late and is over the teen emotion thing. Glad that they squashed that "let's all listen to this deep teen" trope before it got too Wesley Crusher in the show ;p

Kind of cool how Negan flushed out Simon's kill crew. Even if the reality of just hiding behind a dumpster seems ordinary, it was clever to recruit Dwight before letting Dwight know that his game was over too :)
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Apr 09 16:32:20
"not sure why trash lady was living in trash when apparently she has helicopter people connections"

Maybe she's a Trustafarian :D .. so she had a wealthy backer who could save her at any time, but she chose to pretend to be this communist ideal in a self-sustaining and minimalist trash heap. Her nicely-arranged living space makes it seem that way. She knows how to live well and organized but has just been wearing that trash person mask. Then daddy shows up in his helo (Mercedes) and she doesn't rush out in time to get saved ;p
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Apr 10 22:18:59
i think Eugene is full evil now... he went from Eugene the White to Eugene the Dark Greyish
(was wearing white before hiding in the ash)

Negan wanting to go full murder seemed odd to me, not clear to me what caused the change for him from just wiping out leaders or whatever
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Apr 11 01:25:32
...although i don't really recall his exchange with Rick that much :p

i mostly remember thinking why can't these two people find each other w/ the constant talking...
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Apr 15 21:47:02

== show night, Spoilery ==

note Eugene wearing black again thus proving me right!

that ending was terrible :p

some serious precision knife work by Rick knowing it would not be fatal... as usual, i'm w/ team Daryl (not clear to me why Jesus is on that team though)
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Apr 16 21:06:57
@S8E16: "Wrath"

"that ending was terrible :p"

Yeah :/ .. I hate a happy ending. And when the Saviors' weapons failed on the first volley, I was very disappointed :/ :/ — it's back to "inspect what you expect".. Negan (obviously) shouldn't have just fired one handgun and then trusted that Eugene had turned full Savior.. he still should have verified randomly-selected ammo samples. Statistics, Negan! Statistics!! ;p

..
"(not clear to me why Jesus is on that team though)"

Very unclear to me too. Seems Jesus would 100% be Team Rick because it's the peaceful, "let live" route, but he was nodding and smiling at Maggie's "bide our time" plan... just makes me wonder: have I somehow forgotten lots of "must kill Negan no matter the cost" Jesus dialogue or something? Why was he even in the room? Hmm...

I think the only positive of the episode for me was on the hillside when Maggie was super pissed at Rick for making the call to save Negan. That brought up all the trauma of Glenn's death again. So I'm on board too! Team Maggie/Daryl gives me hope for next season.

So yeah.. a pretty bad episode for me. Saviors didn't even get to kill Eugene for his betrayal. I can only hope that the writers have been fattening up the cast for a slaughter. All of those moments where Negan decided not to bash someone's head in may come back next season as Maggie begins killing all the people that she doesn't like, probably starting with Negan's former lieutenants (mainly just Laura, I guess).

Also, that new doctor, "Siddiq" (Avi Nash), is a horrible actor. I thought maybe he just needed to warm up to the show, but he's still doing his awkward "I'm saying deep stuff too artificially/self-consciously" thing.. so he's on my "hope they kill [this character]" list.

Bleh. Maybe they did a bad episode for a finale so that
Fear the Walking Dead"'s premiere wouldn't have too much pressure to be any good...
...oh shit.. just Googled.. that was yesterday too?.... not sure if I'll watch it... maybe? :/
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Apr 16 22:19:00
yeah, they were back to back episodes

it will be kind of weird if it's Rick vs Maggie next season, seems like that would anger their audience :p
McKobb
Member
Wed Apr 18 23:34:12
Team Maggster!
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Oct 12 11:10:08

shows back on, episode 1 last sunday

**** SPOILER TALK ****

Ken!!!!!! not Ken!!!!!!! Noooo
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Oct 15 17:53:09
@S9E01: "A New Beginning"

Not KEN!!?!?!? KEN?!?!?!?!?!?! D: D: D:
Who's Ken? :\
;p
Ken's mom, Tammy, can suck a fuck! Maggie can't protect everyone. If you go on a mission, you might die. Blame yourself for not going in his place, ***Tammy*** ;p

Pretty neat episode dialogue. Maggie's line was cool: "It'll be dark soon. It's time to put the children to bed." Foreboding — good start to a season :)


..
@S9E02: "The Bridge"

[Tammy]: "I've got no one else. I've got no place else to be."
Good point, Tammy. Seems like you're a moocher in the post-apocalypse. Maybe die or go help at the bridge? ;)

@Aaron amputation:
Wow I love Civil War surgery D: :D D: :D D: :D
Hershel's CGI amputation might have increased the FX budget a little, precipitating his death, so I wonder how long Aaron will live now that they have to do rendering and prosthetics every episode ;)

[Negan]: "You're not saving the world, Rick. You're just getting it ready for me."
So fucking cool.

@ending: splinter group forming? That seems to make sense, but it was mentioned that some of the missing Saviors had families and children, so being part of a splinter group doesn't seem like it would be voluntary for them... hmm.. maybe joining the group despite having family just shows that they really want Negan in charge again? Families suffering and an overthrow is the only hhh-way?

..
Glad the show is back! I knew it would be back in October (seems their usual time), but I lost track of when the exact start was.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Oct 19 02:06:57
could be vampires or werewolves :p they need some new enemy for the season
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Oct 22 22:49:23
episode 3
----------

not to seem racist or anything but that guy on the carriage w/ Maggie looked a lot like Glenn :p

this version of Glenn:
http://vig.../images/5/5d/Glenn_rhee_s7.png

go amazons!... Daryl & a bunch of women is all you need
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Oct 23 01:38:45
Carriage Glenn seemed more rugged, but definite similarities with the haircut and facial hair.. hmm.. Maggie has a fetish? ;)

Yeah; Maggie, Daryl, and the Amazons just started the next war, so that's fun. That Amazon's explanation was pretty childish: basically just "I learned it from watching *you*!"... makes sense, though... Two big leaders at odds were bound to create supporters behind themselves, so now Maggie has the Amazons and Rick is left herding cats with the Saviors. It's interesting that Rick is talking about "honoring" the dead whereas Daryl is talking about acting/raging/revenging on behalf of the dead. Rick will have to adapt again... not sure Maggie will make it :(

Nice touch with them putting the planks of Carl and Judith's hand prints on the wall.

Good mystery with Trash Lady's "A" and "B" stuff. Sounds like "B" means a person who can keep secrets (she knocks out the priest when she finds out that he can't keep her secret), but would an "A" be someone who *can't* keep secrets or someone even *better* at keeping secrets? Hmm... I'm sure they left hints by referencing some of the previous fights with the trash peeps, but I can't imagine what these helicopter peeps want besides doctors, fighters, or just random novelty people who entertain them because they helo peeps have been so well-fed anyways.. next time, on WD! ;)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Oct 23 11:50:49
simply female vs male was my first thought... but that's probably not right (her 'i thought you were a B (man)' kinda messes it up unless taken just as an insult :p)

i read someone's post that suggested A='leader' vs B='follower'... but i don't see his actions as suggesting he's not a follower, he's just loyal to a different leader... so that doesn't make that much sense to me either

could be a selfish vs group-oriented person perhaps... or guts vs gutless might make sense for a trafficker preference... i dunno... but i'll probably have something to complain about whatever it is! :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Oct 29 21:51:20
Selfish/Independent ("B") vs. group-oriented ("A") would make sense... someone willing to throw others under the bus or leave everything behind would be a "B", whereas "A"s stick around with attachments. Gabriel couldn't break chains from his old group and go with her, so he's a typical "A"-type,. whereas she wanted to burn bridges and head out so as not to be bound by her past. That fits with the Michonne&Negan talks of episode 5. Looks like no answer yet... wouldn't expect her back until the mid-season finale or later..

..
@S9E04: "The Obliged"

If Rick makes it, he should probably execute that horse for desertion. ;p

After that "I'd die for you" talk, hopefully it won't be Daryl saving Rick at a cost to his own life :(

The two herds, Tybalt and Cordelia, have merged for Episode 5: "Mega-Herd"! Would have to guess that those herds will be going straight to the bridge camp. Maybe the Saviors will work with Carol to fight or divert the herd so that their bridge won't be destroyed by the herd weight? (Sort of like the work put into the bridge had already brought them together without them realizing it.) Alternatively, the herds collapsing the bridge will just cut the groups off and let them prepare for their next war, which Maggie may enable if she accidentally frees Negan instead of killing him. And if Maggie kills Michonne in the process? D:

Michonne and Negan's conversation was a bit dry at first, but it made me think of Crichton's "The Lost World" treatment of safe group behavior vs. a "chaotic edge". People like Michonne and Negan are necessary at the (chaotic) edge of civilization, being brutal and violent and unattached, and when group culture ("safe" behavior) fails, that puts them in power. In peace this can make the violent/chaotic feel useless or marginalized, which is making Michonne struggle for relevance with her government self-education... but it's difficult for her to forget the feel of direct action.

Not too sure about that hanging man scene that Michonne saw. It had a post-slavery era lynching look to it, but the show hasn't really gone into Michonne's take on that political history. That would move its meaning to her personal history with having chained her friends as zombies when she was wild and out in the woods.. (back to chaotic)... but both the lynch metaphor and the memory of being wild might work together.. like she hates how much the chaos makes sense to her still, but she knows it marginalized her and pushed her away from the possibility of love and life :(

In short: chaotic and unattached ("B") versus well-behaved and together ("A") all getting worked out in multiple show metaphors ;D

Keep forgetting to mention the new opening credits: going to animation was a big change from previous seasons. Kind of neat visuals of green growing through the death.. sort of a beginning of the end for the show; once they have government, life, and can defeat mega-herds, the show is pretty much drawing to an end. :'(
10th season last season?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Oct 30 01:03:58
i fast-forward through the opening credits, i'll have to watch next time :p

A & B seems to make no sense at all given that eyeball is her 'A' package but she was about to turn him into a zombie... how would it matter what his personality was to the helicopter trafficker guy if he's a zombie :p

Michonne dying seems on the table since they gave her so much of the episode, always a danger sign :p

they gave away basically 2 spoilers in about half-a-second in the promo stuff for next week before i managed to shut it off :p i don't know why they do that & won't comment on it :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Nov 05 14:51:30
Those promos can be dangerous! :p When I'm not patient enough to wait until Monday when iTunes releases the episode, I watch via TVmuse.eu, and those always include the next-episode preview at the end... they give *way* too much info, so I try to turn the episode off right at the credits.

..
"how would it matter what his personality was to the helicopter trafficker guy if he's a zombie :p"

With all the talk about "another trick", I'm wondering if she was going to have him bitten only so he'd turn after being picked up? :/ Zero clue at this point..

..
@S9E05: "What Comes After"

@opener: Wow! *Rick* saved Rick. That is bad!-ass! :D

Most of the episode I was like, "Shit. Shit. Shit. They're killing Rick." Major show actors re-visiting for guest spots, re-created season 1&2 settings, lots of closure dialogue, lots of dialogue about how we live on through culture (but how individuals still fucking **die**), Maggie making a decision that shows that she understands that Rick's plan with Negan has been working (Rick's culture already living on via Maggie/others, thus his life ready to end), then leading up to a major sacrifice moment where Rick gets to go out helping everyone... fuuuuuck D: D: D: ... god mode off!?!? ;p

Very emotional main ending with Michonne being held back and Daryl walking away... I guess Maggie's talk with Michonne about the trials of single motherhood can't be held over Michonne for the time being ;p ..

Rick washing up was a little bitter-sweet; it would have been a big move for the show to kill him (so maybe a negative that they didn't go through with it), but keeping him alive makes it interesting.

By the team-player ("A") and anarchist ("B") model, it makes sense that trash lady would call Rick an "A" since he'd be the prototypical "A". Maybe the "A"/"B" stuff is their idea of cultural eugenics? Like they're building a perfect anarchist society by air-lifting all the "B" material they can find into a safe zone? If so — and if this narrows in on the show's major closure arcs — maybe this group that still has helos this far into the outbreak was also the group that released the virus in the first place.. their way to filter humans into this super-survivor anarchist/"B" group... Maybe the garbage lady was sponsored by the "B" leader in her landfill, and her group (like other such sponsored locations) was supposed to be trained to reclaim the wild, but unfortunately for the "B" ethos, lots of "A"s like Rick survived..

All said, still it looks like there will be no answers there until the mid-season finale...
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Nov 05 22:32:40
i am annoyed as usual :p

she called Rick a 'B' right?... so i have no idea (w/ eyeball being an 'A' that she thought was a 'B'... yet possibly required zombification for some reason)... helicopter people had been taking both A's & B's or he wouldn't have asked if she was bringing an A or B before

i also don't understand the sadness... why did they assume he was dead when apparently he was fine :p... not entirely sure why he would go into the river, as he was beyond the bridge


one of the stupid things they revealed in the preview last week within seconds of the cliff-hanger was showing wounded Rick riding the horse...

i managed to duck the promo this time
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 06 01:31:41
"she called Rick a 'B' right?"

Shit, nevermind. For some reason I thought she said Rick was an "A", but she did say, "B"... so it's probably not team-player/anarchist.. and yeah, they were ready to accept an "A", so they do take both, and so a eugenics thing probably isn't happening... hmm... back to being clueless on this one :D

..
"why did they assume he was dead when apparently he was fine :p..."

That at least made sense! He was bleeding and looking super weak, and then when the explosion happened they lost sight of him. Plus the river was raging so they had no way to get to him even if he'd survived the blast... makes sense for them to have figured he'd died.

..
"not entirely sure why he would go into the river, as he was beyond the bridge"

Yeah, that was weird. It seems like if anything he'd have been knocked away from the explosion, putting him further onto the remaining part of the bridge ... Looking back, before shooting he was still on the bridge but standing on the concrete part about 20 feet past the wooden repair section. When they show the overhead view of the exploded bridge, the spot where he was standing is broken and on fire.. so falling in makes sense.

I do wish they'd shown less blood on him when trash lady spotted him. The cold water would help keep him alive for the med-evac, but it would have washed away some of the blood and kept him from bleeding more. Looks like the set dressers and/or makeup peeps went a little blood happy and just dropped a full pint on the sand next to him ;p
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Nov 07 13:35:31
we may never know the A & B thing

the show may now be the Adventures of Judith Grimes... maybe a kids show :p
Cherub Cow
Member
Thu Nov 08 00:33:34
Oh I forgot to say how stupid that was: it was fucking stupid :D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Nov 11 21:50:52
--new episode talk--

Lots of hair growth, except for Negan.

Michonne seemed a bit full of herself :p.

Carol is da best.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Nov 12 22:03:49
@S9E06: "Who Are You Now?"

D:
Nice development at the end: looks like the walkers can communicate with each other and have some kind of intelligence now. That explains their decision to make a u-turn back to the tower.. they don't just react but can plan and decide...
Making the move to intelligent zombies can be dangerous... it kind of defeats the purpose of zombies in the first place. "Land of the Dead" (2005) was pretty bad for that reason.. but that movie went semi-comical whereas the serious tone of Walking Dead may be better-equipped to deal with the subject... it can turn up the threat again (I was definitely worried for them when the zombies started talking)

Carol was the definite best of the episode! :D
I kind of wish she could have explained that option to the boy, though. Like a simple couple of lines like, "Just because you know what's right and wrong and need to fight for what's right, doesn't mean you fight that instant. Pick your battles. Turn the odds in your favor." I kind of like their theme of children having to learn these lessons all over again while the experienced still linger to try to teach them. Judith and the boy don't know how dangerous their decisions can be for everyone. Being head-strong at the start of the apocalypse was a death sentence, but now it's (potentially just) a growing pain.

It's almost comical that everyone being added to the show has some kind of diversity background. And just like with the fat girl who was added likely because she could be a headscarf survivor (as opposed to a cardio survivor), I wonder how possible it would be for a deaf person to survive, even with her "guardian angel". The writers can't just say, "Oh, this person survived too" — the main cast had to fight for it and survive situations which tested their potential weaknesses. People who survived despite being soft because they had lucky advantages still had those advantages taken away and were also tested, like the Alexandria peeps who were mostly killed. That's a major point of these total war post-apocalypse situations: survival after all of society's protections removed.
Anyways, they also added Dan Fogler from "Balls of Fury" (2007), which made him a little difficult to take seriously at first ;D

..
The time jump was significant for a regular episode (not even a mid-season finale). Not sure that the Judith actress can hack it, but Carl was annoying, so they had to bring more annoying shit on board ;D
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 13 00:29:54
yeah the diversity is kinda sledgehammery

I'll give them credit for time passage things like the vines on that vehicle Michonne looted and the phasing out of motorized transport.

Not sure still having hordes makes sense... seems like there'd be all sorts of reasons they wouldn't sustain but maybe that would mess up the show premise :p

Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Nov 19 22:33:17
@@S9E07: "Stradivarius"

Cool opening! More of the zombie voices and Rosita freaking out was cool. Sounds like the walkers have been preparing for a big attack, and they don't want anyone to know. That must be what the deaf lady saw out in the woods: a walker spying on them. (Or someone else entirely?) Lots of mystery-building happening...

Dan Fogler's monologue on neanderthals was a little ambiguous... like, would the neanderthals in this case just be violent survivors out in the wild who need to learn to trust again, or was this a hint from the show-writers that the walkers (as neanderthals) will eventually be pulled back into the fold? Movies like "Patient Zero" (2018) might be revealing that zombie-genre writers have been rolling around ideas of zombies as cultural animals that could be integrated under the right conditions... part of a political conditioning that's being released into pop culture... but Walking Dead would have to do a lot of work to make that possible. The "Patient Zero" zombies weren't the decaying type, whereas the Walking Dead ones have been, so there's not much room for campfire songs with the zombies ;p

Anyways.. kind of a transition episode.. not too much of note... looks like just setup for the mid-season finale next week.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 20 22:16:56
I didn't read much into Dan's comments, but you could argue the living people would be the neanderthals (smarter, better tools) so the zombies just need to develop music...

Michonne continues to annoy me :p

The zombies attack, and the group under her watch is all 'hey, we need our weapons so we don't die!!'
Michonne quietly wanders off with no answer or instructions

I'd be quite enraged
McKobb
Member
Wed Nov 21 00:15:24
I like dog. Dog is good.

Good dog!
Cherub Cow
Member
Thu Nov 22 14:28:57
Dog has been a good addition to the show ;D
"Good dog!" [Not good boy/girl, just "good dog!" as per Daryl] ;p

Oh!! I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier after you [tw] mentioned that it didn't make sense that trash lady was selecting people by personality only to turn them into walkers (i.e., why turn them?):
So now we know that the walkers can talk.. but where did that come from? Selection! Trash lady has been selecting people with certain traits *and* turning them into walkers in order to create an army of walkers that can do basic planning and stuff. Probably it's an army being used by the living person to which trash lady talks as opposed to some walker army that just happened to become self-aware... so... with Rick taken.. he probably really is dead, and the writers won't be reversing all of his death episode stuff with his eventual return.. but he'll be the *undead* leader of this new walker army D: ... so Alexandria/Hilltop/Kingdom's next big threat will be a walker hoard **controlled by walker-Rick** D: D:

(and backed by trash lady's contact, but that's not the exciting part) :p
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Nov 23 12:13:28
i suppose it's possible

they do need some kind of explanation for what the helicopter people are/were up to
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Nov 23 18:26:32
you could #twd your theory on twitter to get more potential credit if right :p
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Nov 25 22:52:27

=== Show Night / spoilery ===

we don't know what caused the tension for Michonne & Hilltop right?

a bit of a Scooby Doo ending... not sure this storyline makes sense, but we'll see how it play out...
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Mon Nov 26 16:44:45
jeebus
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Nov 26 16:48:38
@@S9E08: "Evolution"

There goes my theory about selected zombies :'(
Pretty cool, though! A group of peeps going the extra mile for blending in with the herd :D
So this probably doesn't have much to do with Rick?.. Maybe it's another "wolves" sort of group.

Very cool atmospheres in the episode with all of the fog, darkness, and lightning.

Kind of lame that Hilltop has a drunk tank. Not lame for the writing but lame for Hilltop :p

Poor messiah :( ... but at least he taught Aaron the cool stuff (fighting), and we'll be spared the not cool stuff (random idealism) ;p

..
"we don't know what caused the tension for Michonne & Hilltop right?"

I don't think so. It doesn't make much sense to me given where they were last seen together (Rick's explosion and the bridge stuff). That must have just been because of the time apart and showing how the groups have become suspicious of one another... but Tara should have at least been excited to see a familiar face. The core group should all be happy about that stuff, even if not the supporting characters..

..
I was hoping for more from the mid-season finale (some Rick info), but the ending was still a good moment.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Nov 26 18:41:04
there still could be some intelligence change

it's not clear how simply wearing a mask would let them steer the herd... like why would the normal ones ignore the firecrackers/dog-barking just because the imposters do

McKobb
Member
Tue Nov 27 01:37:05
I'm guessing living symbiotically with the heard produced insights into how to drive them, behaviorally speaking.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 27 01:45:38
Yeah... like maybe they know just how much noise to make to get the herd's attention. When those disguised peeps were talking, it was super slow and growly, which probably doesn't alert the herd (as opposed to Sam from Alexandria calling for mom and getting eaten despite being covered in walker goo). Did the latest season of FWD do more herd-walking stuff? .. I might watch it now that WD will be gone for a bit..
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 27 11:22:01
i didn't keep up w/ FWD
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