Utopia Talk / Politics / Iran

jergul Member	Thu Jun 25 23:00:25 Iran is actually a fascist technocracy with the trappings of democracy anchored to a judeo-christian-islamic moral codex encoded in its constitutional framework. Tribal Islam is the greatest threat to the current system. If middleclass wannabes ever reach a point of being mildly threatening, then the central powers will have to stop dragging tribal forces into the modern era and instead have them as allies of convenience for period. Rabble in the street now serve the interests of tribal hardliners and no one else. The timing sucks. Give it a decade before you go for your coloured revolution.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Thu Jun 25 23:05:16 you still need a perceived common enemy, though. what if the US keeps electing presidents that know how to STFU, and Israel starts being humane? or if Persians focus more on their Persian-ness and less on their Muslim-ness and stop giving a fuck about Arabs.
jergul Member	Thu Jun 25 23:08:54 Whahabists are always good - along with a war on drugs.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 23:11:12 jergul doesn't have any actual arguments, he just has a list of a few soundbytes that he spams over and over again. How many times now has he recycled that term, "fascist technocracy with the trappings of democracy?" What a worthless Euro.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Thu Jun 25 23:11:59 so, how do the older traditional Iranians establish a sense of trust, understanding, and cooperation with the neo-hippies of my generation in Iran? shutting down Yahoo Instant Messenger and censoring the blogosphere...?
jergul Member	Thu Jun 25 23:12:40 Ruggy An endless number of times - which is why it somehow suprises me when nimi forgot the fascist part of my description of Iran.
jergul Member	Thu Jun 25 23:14:32 No one gives a fuck about neo-hippy's ep, its still all about defeating tribal islam.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Thu Jun 25 23:17:17 "No one gives a fuck about neo-hippy's ep" i was attempting to describe young Iranians in general, not a specific subset of them. to their elders, that is indeed how they must appear.
jergul Member	Thu Jun 25 23:20:15 their elders are trying to get them secular educations in order to undermine tribal islam ep. The ipods will just have to wait.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Thu Jun 25 23:22:04 "their elders are trying to get them secular educations in order to undermine tribal islam ep." and more power to those elders doing that. clarify why you think it would be better to wait a decade, if you will.
roland Member	Fri Jun 26 00:54:54 What makes them a technocracy?
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 03:02:01 Jergul makes them a technocracy. He has never actually been to Iran to see for himself that there is no actual trace of a technocracy. People are put into positions based on military records and Islamic jurisprudence and faith. When you land in Iran with the wife and kids jergul make sure to notice that the low level customs agent is educated and understands english fully well, while his boss is an angry looking bearded man whose main merit is intimidation, he is of course dumb as a rock. This kind of structure permeates the entire Iranian society. But lets entertain your high thought about Iran. Can you give a reference? You keep mentioning tribalism and a threat from Taleban style Islam. Are you for real? You think a couple of stoning a year makes the basis for a movement that threatens the central government? Eh? Do you understand that even with the "change" in the penal code stoning is and will be a legal form of punishment? Nothing your taleban movement is doing is against the laws and regulations of the Islamic republic. They are most certainly not at odds with the central government.
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 03:29:23 You know I think Jergul is thinking about a guy called Mohammad-Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi. What Jergul forgets is that Yazdi FAILED to fill the Assembly of experts with his acolytes. He won't be the next SL in Iran and whatever influence he has within the basiji and Revolutionary guard is easily crushed either within the Pasdaran organization or if his influence is stronger via the army which is much stronger than either or both combined. Though in all honesty there are enough pragmatic people within the Pasdaran to stop it at that level.
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 03:40:58 "their elders are trying to get them secular educations in order to undermine tribal islam ep." Everyone knows that, Facebook, MSN, SMS service and the Internet are the main tools of the tribal Islamists. If anything you say jergul was even remotely true (which it isn't) and these tribalists were the biggest threat to the Islamic republic they would have clamped down on it and crushed it a long time ago. You have a burden of proof here to show what makes these tribalists any different from The Tudeh party, MEK, Kurds, Sunnis, Azaris and now most recently the reformist movement. All of these groups have attempted to revolt and some of them using terror attacks and armed resistance. Some of them even infiltrated the government in the hundreds and achieved key positions (Tudeh) they were all rounded up and executed.
nhill Member	Fri Jun 26 03:52:26 hook line sinker
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 04:21:19 He insist that he is serious.
Asgard Member	Fri Jun 26 05:56:34 He doesn't insist he is serious, he insists that he knows everything. In fact, there is absolutely nothing Jergul is not at least as knowledgeable as PhD on the matter. He is a man of many talents.
Harof Member	Fri Jun 26 06:06:01 "Can you give a reference?" What sort of blasphemy is this?!
Aeros Member	Fri Jun 26 06:58:01 " judeo-christian" No. No its not. Judaism and Christianity may be the progenitors of Islam, but they have very little in common with it.
Rugian Member	Fri Jun 26 07:18:01 Aeros, minus points for not knowing jack shit about Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
Muslim Member	Fri Jun 26 07:25:13 "Judaism and Christianity may be the progenitors of Islam, but they have very little in common with it." rofl Typical christian. Judaism and Islam are identical in their concepts of God, christianity is the odd one out (with the greek-pagan invention of a triune godhead).
nhill Member	Fri Jun 26 07:54:18 Yur gonna get redundant real fast Rugian. This Aeros kid doesn't know jack shit about anything, ever.
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 10:19:02 Tribal islam is the interpretation of the judea-christian-muslim faith that brings you stonings for holding hands in parks and what have you. Iran is a technocracy simply due to its focus on technological and industrial development. If nimi gets his way, then Iran will become the tribal sectarian hell hole you see in Afghanistan, pakistan and Iraq these days. What will of course happen if the pinko liberals become as much as a minor threat to the current system is that the powers that be will side with the hardliners and take a decade step backwards. Why don't you go to Iran and fight for what you believe in Nimi? Maybe a few cracks on the head will teach you some sense?
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 11:24:51 Blah blah blah, so far you are presenting nothing to back up your opinions. I keep giving examples historic and present. It's your ball, but spamming the same thing over and over about technocracy and tribal Islam is getting you no where. No references, AKA Link?
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 11:26:45 >>Why don't you go to Iran and fight for what you believe in Nimi?<< Ridiculous jergul I don't have to fight every fight in the world because I think it is just. Why don't you go to Iran and help the pasdaran? I bet killing some pinko liberals will get the juices flowing eh?
rolAND Member	Fri Jun 26 11:34:50 "Iran is a technocracy simply due to its focus on technological and industrial development. " Incorrect, you got the definition of technocracy all wrong, no wonder it doesnt make any sense. ~cracy in general refers to who holds the power in a particular community. Technocracy: a form of government in which scientists and technical experts are in control http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=technocracy A society ruled by the technical elite http://www.osixs.org/Definitions.aspx The rule or administration of government by a group or class of technical experts. http://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/SARC/E-Democracy/Final_Report/Glossary.htm
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Fri Jun 26 11:41:48 so africa wuld b an niggacracy?
President Bush Member	Fri Jun 26 11:49:19 Roland is correct.
swordtail Member	Fri Jun 26 11:50:48 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e84_1245113446
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:23:46 Nimi I don't have to. When you think about it, then you refer to parts of the background picture (jergul is prolly thinking this or that). Roland etc, yepp. Not going to bore you with details on the educational backgrounds of Iran's legislators. Most of whom hold doctorates in scientific fields. The current prez of course holds a doctorate in engineering. We have hashed our way through these things years ago. Am giving you the readers digest version now, simply because I have noted most peoples memories suck, explaining things fully is a waste of time.
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Jun 26 12:26:49 " The current prez of course holds a doctorate in engineering." GWB was the first MBA president..I don't know if feel comfortable calling him a technocrat. In fact, I know I don't.
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:34:20 CR Woot. MBAs are more degrees in sycophansy.
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Jun 26 12:34:21 "Not going to bore you with details on the educational backgrounds of Iran's legislators" Out of curiousity, what would you call Russia, since most of the administration big shots have KGB and other security services background. A police state? I mean, professional background is at least as important as educational background.
President Bush Member	Fri Jun 26 12:41:20 Iran is quite clearly guided more in accordance with religious ideology than technocratic ideology.
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:41:43 The term is managed democracy. Which I think provides all the nuances of what Russia actually has as a political system. Inferring strong centralized control with the symbolic trappings of democratic proceedings. The judicial branch in Russia sucks. Which is the actual huge problem with their system.
roland Member	Fri Jun 26 12:43:31 Do bore me, jergul. The fact that the president has a PhD does not imply it is a technocracy, the power to pick the president rested on the Supreme Leader and the clerics, and the president aren't chosen because they are the most prominent figure in science or engineering. They are chosen because of their loyalty to the clerics. This is contradictory to what a technocracy is.
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:45:43 Bush Really? How come then its post secondary secular institutions outnumber religions ones by 5 to 1? If you review the fundamental plans for development (they have the equivalent of 5 year plans) then you will see where the emphasis lies. The constitution is of course a judeo-christian-islam moralistic thingy. Same as we have - thats why we can toss millions into jails and permanently end their lives as enfranchized citizens. Its the moralism stupid.
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Jun 26 12:46:29 "The term is managed democracy. Which I think provides all the nuances of what Russia actually has as a political system. Inferring strong centralized control with the symbolic trappings of democratic proceedings. " So, unlike with Iran, Russia's leaders background is irrelevant when trying to come up with a name for their system?
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:49:14 Roland - uhm, no. The constitution determines who can be president, the supreme court interpretes the wording of the constitution. Same system as you have in the US. The SC being an independent branch. Main difference really is that the chain of command ends with the SC direction instead of indirectly like in the US (where a soldier swears to uphold the constitution - meaning in essense that if the SC ruled that the chain of command was issuing unlawful orders, then the soldier would be duty bound to instead obey the interpretations of the SC).
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 12:49:48 CR A Police State is fine.
CrownRoyal Member	Fri Jun 26 12:53:44 "A Police State is fine." Aha! I rule! And rock.
roland Member	Fri Jun 26 12:56:31 "The constitution determines who can be president," The candidates for the presidency are screened by the guardian council, which they can disqualify any person based on their opinion on the candidate. This is completely different with us.
roland Member	Fri Jun 26 13:09:19 Nonetheless, the main point is the political system does not empathise on picking the most technical people to run the country, the people are picked based on other characteristics, say Islamic values, or closeness to the clerics, etc... So this is not a technocracy.
jergul Member	Fri Jun 26 13:46:46 So? Try running for presidency or even voting in the US with a criminal record. The Iranian constitution has similar criteria based on the same kind of moralism. The SC of course being the ultimate arbitrator on who can vote or become a presidential candidate. They - like you - are a constitutional republic. Actually, we should ask nimi to find out what % of Iran's legislature lack doctorate degrees. Something in the region of 30% or so?
Borthas Member	Fri Jun 26 13:57:32 Or try running for the presidency in the US if you're not born there even though you are a citizen or if you're younger than 35 years old.
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 14:12:52 >>Roland - uhm, no. The constitution determines who can be president, the supreme court interpretes the wording of the constitution.<< I think this sums up how warped Jerguls mind is regarding this issue. He actually thinks that the constitution in Iran dictates anything of relevance. He believes these things because he simply does not know any better and besides the pie charts, graphs and numbers there exists nothing else. Just read his last post, he thinks that because some percentage of the population hold PhDs that this makes Iran anything other than what it is. Seriously Jergul you seem very interested in my motherland, I advise you sincerely to take a trip there and see it for yourself. See how much of what you think you know makes it out in one piece when you return home.
roland Member	Fri Jun 26 14:22:40 "Try running for presidency or even voting in the US with a criminal record." Criminal record does not disqualify you, George Bush himself got a criminal record for DUI. I dont see any point talking about the US, it is not a technocracy either. "Actually, we should ask nimi to find out what % of Iran's legislature lack doctorate degrees. " Not the point, the qualification for office is not based on their technical skills, which quantify whether the country is a technocracy or otherwise.
Asgard Member	Fri Jun 26 14:24:46 "Roland etc, yepp. Not going to bore you with details on the educational backgrounds of Iran's legislators. Most of whom hold doctorates in scientific fields" Half of those are faked titles anyway.
swordtail Member	Fri Jun 26 14:26:35 "Half of those are faked titles anyway." not the mossad ones i hope.
Nimatzo Member	Fri Jun 26 14:31:52 After 100+ posts Jergul has failed to produce anything that shows this "threat from tribalism". I am still waiting and I don't expect to see this materialize either.
Asgard Member	Fri Jun 26 14:43:13 "not the mossad ones i hope." 'course not!
HOer Member	Fri Jun 26 14:46:00 So basically, the only ones in the Iranian govt with degrees are the mossad?
jergul Member	Sat Jun 27 01:30:08 Nimi If tribal islam is an unfamiliar concept to you, then I suggest you read up on it. You may want to view it in terms of rural versus urban culture if you like. Or just travel to eastern Iran and see for yourself. Roland, the screening process favours doctorate degrees ahead of many other things. A degree in scientific fields make you an ideal candidate for constitutional review. Its a pretty neat country. You know how the unite homosexuality with Islam? Physical gender is irrelevant, its the gender the person feels he has that counts and it is the duty of science to correct things medically if the physical body does not match that of the soul. Hence making Iran a sex change capital on its own right. Never mind totally misunderstanding what homosexuality is...focus rather on the role science is supposed to play. Anyways, have missed the news. Enough middle class wannabe heads cracked yet? Nimi, the push for democracy is fine, but the timing is completely wrong. Give it a decade.
roland Member	Sat Jun 27 01:49:09 "Roland, the screening process favours doctorate degrees ahead of many other things. A degree in scientific fields make you an ideal candidate for constitutional review. " Lol, link? They are openly disqualifying candidates because of their political believes, such as the reformists are cast aside in the presidential or parliamentary election. This is not something that would happen in a technocracy. Hence, it indicates something else is more important than the technical background of the candidates. And therefore, once again affirmed Iran is not a technocracy. And to be fair, there are probably no countries out there which is a technocracy either.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Sat Jun 27 02:06:56 its an teroristcracie wear u gota b an terorist 2 b in powar
nhill Member	Sat Jun 27 03:33:00 a terorist*
jergul Member	Sat Jun 27 07:41:31 Roland Link? Why most of the legislators do have graduate degrees at least. Demonstrating that the screening process favours them and that Iran is indeed a technocracy. Hence indicating that exactly what I claimed. Iran is a fascist technocracy. Amusing by the way that you dont dispute the fascist part - which would actually be harder to support that the technocracy bit.
Nekran Member	Sat Jun 27 07:51:37 A whole lot of countries are technocracies if all it takes is graduate degrees for most legislators... that's just plain stupid.
jergul Member	Sat Jun 27 07:52:25 Shia Islam does have a leadership understanding not unlike the Aristotelian one you know. It gives a wider moralist basis than the fundamentalist Christian view predominant in leadership selection in the US. Suitability to legislate and rule includes having the knowledge and wisdom to do so. It is not enough to be "born again" and master semi-literacy like you are obviously thinking by force of habit.
jergul Member	Sat Jun 27 07:57:46 Nekran, don't blame me for the level of discussion in this forum. Roland is using technocracy in an autistic literal sense, so that form the basis for the discussion. Policy direction in addition to leadership qualities are of course an important part of a technocracy.
Nimatzo Member	Sat Jun 27 11:38:29 >>If tribal islam is an unfamiliar concept to you, then I suggest you read up on it.<< It is unkown to everyone else in the world apart from you Jergul, that is as a threat to the Islamic republic. I will translate this as you don't actually have any source for this claim. I mean seriously if this is so apparent that SOMEONE other than a guy living in the mountains in Norway should have heard about it? >>Or just travel to eastern Iran and see for yourself.<< Have you been to eastern Iran? Or to Iran at all? The strongest tribe or clan in eastern Iran is the SurenPhalev clan and they are zoroastrians. Do you have anything that is actually true? Where do you get this information? >>homosexuality with Islam? Physical gender is irrelevant, its the gender the person feels he has that counts and it is the duty of science to correct things medically if the physical body does not match that of the soul. Hence making Iran a sex change capital on its own right. Never mind totally misunderstanding what homosexuality is...focus rather on the role science is supposed to play.<< Jergul thinks it is a "minor" detail if you mix up transsexual and homosexual. Anything goes if he can make Iran look better. it pains me to say it jergul, but I have lost an incredible amount of respect for you during the course of this subject. Not so much for the position you take, but how irrationally you have defended it. Though that will always be the case when your goal is irrational and the position you take untenable. There are a number of ways to detect bullshit and one of them is to see how the errors spread, if the errors are random then we can trust the data, but if all the errors point one way then you have to seriously question the agenda of the person. You are completely full of shit jergul. You have no basis for anything you say, you have yet to back up even the simplest of your claims with any source other than you own mouth, nothing you say adds up with the real world, full of shit and it reeks with with anti-american agenda. I am done with this, good day.
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Jun 27 12:48:55 This thread should only be remembered as one where the elegant Canadian defeated the arrogant norweg, and for not much else. Yes, yes.
MurdeR Member	Sat Jun 27 13:18:48 "I think this sums up how warped Jerguls mind is regarding this issue. He actually thinks that the constitution in Iran dictates anything of relevance." Nimatzo: No he doesn't. Again, every position he takes regarding Russia, Iran, Syria, N.Korea ... is nothing more than an a broadside on the US, and the wording of his arguments are chosen specifically to equate the worst behavior of those regimes to common practice in the US. And then, because he can't help himself, he goes one step further and argues that those regimes are in fact more righteous and just and more democratic than we are. Wash, rinse, repeat.
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Jun 27 13:27:11 You are not even gonna mention the elegant canadian, Murder?
HOer Member	Sat Jun 27 13:28:30 I once knew an elegant canadian. Very elegant, he was.
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Jun 27 13:29:32 He might have pretended to be elegant. Most people aren't.
HOer Member	Sat Jun 27 13:30:22 Oh, this one was. Quite elegant.
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Jun 27 13:31:50 Was he standing next to an arrogant Norweg? Cause that might have given him a fake aura of elegance.
Madc0w Member	Sat Jun 27 20:44:53 "This thread should only be remembered as one where the elegant Canadian defeated the arrogant norweg" Congratulations on your victory. How are you going to celebrate?
JNH Member	Sat Jun 27 21:14:58 "Why most of the legislators do have graduate degrees at least. Demonstrating that the screening process favours them and that Iran is indeed a technocracy." Preferring educated people does not make a technocracy. I don't know about Iranian culture, but assuming that at certain social level you are expected to have a degree, it wouldn't surprise me that the political elite does have degrees. It is not so rare in other countries, either.
CrownRoyal Member	Sat Jun 27 23:29:18 "Congratulations on your victory. How are you going to celebrate?" This is a very legitimate question. How many of us had defeated jergul? I mean, to the point where he concedes? I must think now.
JNH Member	Sun Jun 28 00:57:32 Well, we have an ongoing bet with jergul. If the average price of Brent crude goes over $80 this year, I will be mailing a bottle of Scotch whisky to jergul. On the other hand if it does not, I will be celebrating my victory with a bottle of Scotch. It is always more fun when you put your money where your mouth is. :)
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 02:56:39 JNH Its a pretty easy case to make. Under the shah, literacy and higher education sucked. Under the current fascist technocracy an Aristotelian approach to society is followed. Giving both the broad focus and the specific leadership selection based on technical credentials and development. Consider the simple fact that secular post secondary educations outnumber religious ones by 4 or 5 to one (based on enrolment). Incidentally, access to higher education is based on merit, so women have outnumbered men since 2000. I remembered it as 75 :-) Murder Its actually more a broadside against constitutional republics of any type. The walkdown to 12.5% of the nominal global economy by 2020 renders specific nations a lot less interesting than the case was in 2001. CR 3
roland Member	Sun Jun 28 03:39:29 "Its a pretty easy case to make. Under the shah, literacy and higher education sucked. " How ironic that the shah is the one who begin to modernise the country with western education, building universities, and schools and allowing girls to go to school. So that jergul claim credit for the Islamic republic for having more educated people in government post. But this is a flawed argument, because the education level are rising across the board, so there is little surprise you can find more ministers in the modern government who would have higher education level than the during the shah's era. This does not represent the current government are choosen for their merit, or on technical abilities. You can dodge all you want, but no matter how smart some people are, if the clerics does not like their politics, they will not be able to stand in an election for parliament or for president. Thus, they are not a technocracy. "Why most of the legislators do have graduate degrees at least. Demonstrating that the screening process favours them and that Iran is indeed a technocracy." Why NONE of the legislators can express their view against the clerics, without being disqualified, or arrested?
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 10:28:56 Roland I made the case that it is their focal priority. People are constitutionally bound to meet the Aristotelian ideal that leaders should be technocrats (using today's terminology). Legislators are bound to uphold the constitution Roland. Or to change it through the proper process. Nice use of hot rod capitalization by the way. It makes your argument seem extremely powerful. Iran is a fascist-technocracy with the trapping of democracy on a judeo-christian-islamic moralistic base. Feel free to disagree. You wold do better claiming it is not fascist. Why not start there? Then you can move on to argue its lacks an inherent Abramic moralist codex and is not really a constitutional republic. Which are also points easier to argue than disputing the Aristotelian ideal at the basis for leadership selection.
JNH Member	Sun Jun 28 11:08:01 jergul, "Consider the simple fact that secular post secondary educations outnumber religious ones by 4 or 5 to one (based on enrolment). Incidentally, access to higher education is based on merit, so women have outnumbered men since 2000." That just means they are not stupid by putting emphasis on religious education, but we are discussing system of government here which you claim to be a "technocracy". I'm pretty sure your supposed technocracy ends immediately when it comes in conflict with Islam. Consider a wannabe-legislator that publicly announces that the universe was not created by Allah, but is a result of natural processes.
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 11:37:46 JNH The Aristotelian perspective an inherent part of the republic's interpretation of its constitutional basis. The technocratic element in that sense is Islam. Consider a wannabe legislator saying the same in the US. These nations are not social democracies JNH, we would be wise to remember that.
JNH Member	Sun Jun 28 12:38:00 "Consider a wannabe legislator saying the same in the US." I believe in Iran they are screened by a religious government body, can you point me to similar body in the US..? Reading the constitutions, it is pretty obvious that the US Constitution draws its authority from demos as opposed to theos in Iranian Constitution.
redblooded Member	Sun Jun 28 13:18:45 Why is Iran a supposed dictatorial, totalitarian country tolerating this kind of behaviour anyway? Why did they allow those protests and riots and now even considering a recount of some sorts. Why are the the US and other countries allied with countries like Saudi Arabia and many other dictatorships who hold no elections at all, or Turkey, Pakistan, Egypt where the military decides which parties can run and steps in if the government steps out of line. If democracy is so important, why did the US support Israel to stage a coup when the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas? Obama says he does not want to meddle with Iran's internal affairs? Then why is he still maintaining the US policy of embargo and boycott on Iran. Funding anti-Iranian regime broadcasts and weapon shipments to anti-Iranian terrorist movements. How much has and is the US spending to effect a regime change in Iran? It still is not clearcut that the majority of the Iranian people have not voted for Ahmadinejad. Most data indicate that Ahmadinejad enjoys the support of the majority of the Iranians since he is spending a lot of money on the poor and religeous and that only a minority of the educated and well-off are against him. It is dangerous to start a revolution when the plebs are not with you. And if they don't want to get decimated, they should quit when they still don't have the support of the plebs and military by this time. The US and other countries should better take care in what they say and how they react and act. There is not that much more trustworthiness and credibility they can afford to loose.
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 13:20:17 You are speaking of the pre-amble? In the US system its pretty obvious a lot of safeguards were put into place to avoid demos. The electorate for example - who are under no obligation to vote in any particular manner. You seem to forget that the US constitution was originally written with an extremely limited view on who the demos where. The Iranian constitutions is of the people and for the people in the same way the US one is. And was indeed subject to referendum - as are all modifications to the fundamental document. The Abramic moralism implicit to constitutional republics of which we speak is self evident in both documents - as is the influence of Aristotle interpreted on one side by Agustine and rationalism (in the age of reason sense), while on the other you have the profound influence classically thinkers have on the shia-muslim system. Iran is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination. Which is one of the huge mistakes people make when trying to figure out whats going on. A fascist-technocracy is not exactly a huge compliment you know.
JNH Member	Sun Jun 28 14:47:26 "Iran is not a theocracy by any stretch of the imagination. Which is one of the huge mistakes people make when trying to figure out whats going on." Still, religion has more influence than scientific merit, which means Iran is not a technocracy either. I believe Ahmadinejads platform to power stems from promises to fight corruption of religious leaders in rural areas.
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 15:01:44 JNH That is the general trend in central government. Defeating tribal Islam and drawing the districts kicking and screaming into the modern era. Technological development is the focal point of the State at all levels JNH, they sacrifice sheep at the alter of AutoCad to put it that way. A fascist-technocracy is the best label you are going to find.
Harof Member	Sun Jun 28 17:33:56 "A fascist-technocracy is the best label you are going to find" Communist-Patriarchy sounds so much more fitting.
jergul Member	Sun Jun 28 22:03:18 For the Jewish state perhaps Harof, but that was not the topic at hand.
JNH Member	Sun Jun 28 22:35:03 "That is the general trend in central government. Defeating tribal Islam and drawing the districts kicking and screaming into the modern era." Again, government's goals or aspirations do not define the system of government or "-cracy". Government's style of governance does. A military dictatorship intending to give up power after free elections is still a military dictatorship. Iran's system of government is heavily influenced by religion which means it can not be a technocracy.
jergul Member	Mon Jun 29 00:52:30 Nah. Its fundamental document is heavily influenced by Abramic moralism as is the case most places, but the style of government is as I defined. A fascist-technocracy with the trappings of democracy. The equivalent of the SC keeps the moralistic aspect anchored like SCs do everywhere. But you can disagree if you like, its just a tag. I don't mind people getting Iran wrong.
Harof Member	Mon Jun 29 01:05:52 "For the Jewish state perhaps Harof, but that was not the topic at hand. " Israel is obviously a monarchy. Just look at all the hints. Nice dodge though, you obviously can't counter such an accurate description of the Islamic state.
roland Member	Mon Jun 29 01:17:22 "Consider a wannabe legislator saying the same in the US. These nations are not social democracies JNH, we would be wise to remember that. " The US is not a technocracy neither, even the our government has strong focus on education and technological development, and most if not all legislators in the country have tertiary equivalent or higher education level. Funny you keep bringing the US up to counter "Iran is not a technocracy".
Nimatzo Member	Mon Jun 29 05:59:30 You guys are making it way too complicated. You play Jerguls game and actually debate him point by point when he has no leg to stand on. Keep asking him for sources for his claims. He keeps coming up short. GG
jergul Member	Mon Jun 29 11:16:52 Anyway, the heads were cracked and things are back to normal. Thank goodness. Nimi, a fascist-technocracy on a constitutional basis and with the trappings of democracy is not a nice thing. But its a hell of a lot better than Iraqified Tribal Islam. You keep on wishing for the most evil of things on your countrymen.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Jun 29 12:06:52 >>Anyway, the heads were cracked and things are back to normal. Thank goodness.<< Yea it's all over, besides that protest yesterday and the day before that and Rafsanjanis speech where he diplomatically reaffirms his stance. >is not a nice thing.<< I am quite sure that this figment of imagination isn't a nice thing. I am however sorry to say that it is just that, a figment of your imagination. You were asked to provide some evidence for this supposed threat of tribalism in the last thread. You failed and I went as far as to search for Iranian internal security assessments and found security memos of the revolutionary guard pointing out a year ago that the biggest threat was internal and that the biggest threats to the republic were...what jergul? Reformist movements, femenist movements, the growing "immoral" and restless young population and so on and so forth. This bogus threat that you have made up or totally misinterpret is akin to me saying that the biggest threat to Norwegian monarchy are bengal tigers and then when you laugh I point you to a zoo in Oslo. Stupid ain't it? Your understanding of Iranian culture is 0 and naturally you make mistakes when you assess the situation based on the poor information you have. What is worse is that you insist that you are right without anything to back up the claims. >>You keep on wishing for the most evil of things on your countrymen.<< According to you, but then again by now I think it is pretty clear to everyone but you that you know jack shit about Iran. For that reason your opinion regarding what is good and bad is not worth the air it takes to announce.
Nimatzo Member	Mon Jun 29 12:10:23 >>Anyway, the heads were cracked and things are back to normal. Thank goodness.<< lol I just realized. This is jergul running with his hands on his ears, eyes closed screaming LALALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU LALALALALAL.
Asshole UPer Member	Mon Jun 29 14:54:35 Rofl? ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! v
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