Utopia Talk / Politics / Idris Elba - Not black enough

Nimatzo rank	Wed Apr 14 20:52:18 2021 BBC diversity chief* says Idris Elba's TV detective Luther 'isn't black enough to be real' because 'he doesn't have any black friends and doesn't eat any Caribbean food' Can you imagine if someone said that about, Tom Cruise's character, not white enough, he has no white friends and does not eat potatoes in his latest movie. Because only white people are allowed to do whatever they want, befriend whomever they want, eat whatever they want and still be white. That my friends, is white privilege. The privileged to be whom ever you are, without ceasing to be "real". Because the rest of us are fucking animals in a zoo, who have to behave and eat a certain way to remain "authentic" for the amusement and approval of white people. Dance monkey! Prepare a kebab monkey! Act black monkey! You want colonial era racism, this is it. Where Europeans went around the world and brought all kinds of animals and people back, normally in chains and cages, dressed in authentic tribal outfits. This shit here is the legacy of that benevolent form of racism. *AKA I know nothing, I have achieved even less, and created nothing, but I am an "expert".
Seb rank	Wed Apr 14 21:36:21 2021 Nim, Idris Elba is black. The point was that Luther, as a character, is written as a white character and is only "black" in so far as the character that plays him is black. In so far as the character Luther is black, he is pretty odd and unrealistic compared to Afro Caribbean Brits. This is not a hard concept. I'm reminded of a director I worked with who once talked about Shell's diversity policy. They'd hire anyone with any skin colour, provided they talked, acted and thought exactly like a white, Anglo Dutch male in their 50s.
Sam Adams rank	Wed Apr 14 21:41:27 2021 Sebs like "you have to think diverse thoughts now". Lol what a fucking racist tard.
Y2A rank	Wed Apr 14 21:57:53 2021 the problem with people like nim is that they actually believe that these sentiments are wide spread and base their entire politics around it. the BBC diversity chief (which I just googled as Miranda Wayland) isn't known to anyone while Idris Elba is freaking Stringer "Go on then muh fu..." Bell.
Seb rank	Wed Apr 14 21:59:46 2021 Sam: Given that the standard answer as to why diversity is a good thing from a corporate perspective is precisely around diversity of thought, yes, that's the goal. I get you are more comfortable when everyone agrees with you, as we can see by your frankly hysterical reaction to anything contrary to your prejudices.
Forwyn rank	Wed Apr 14 22:00:00 2021 "In so far as the character Luther is black, he is pretty odd and unrealistic compared to Afro Caribbean Brits." Has it been stated that Luther is Caribbean? If so, are we gatekeeping cultures even within skin colors? If not, are we erroneously assuming any black Brit must be from the Caribbean?
Seb rank	Wed Apr 14 22:03:06 2021 Y2A: Yeah but the point about diverse casting isn't just about opportunities for actors, it's also about appeal to diverse audiences. If none of your characters in your dramas actually reflect the reality of your audience, and as a result your audience drift away thinking your programming is unrealistic in that sense, you have a problem. It doesn't really bare this much focus.
Seb rank	Wed Apr 14 22:06:24 2021 Forwyn: Ok, but the point the guy was making isn't "Oh my god, Luther is racist", that point he was making is that writing a character like Luther and casting Idris Elba is all well and good but doesn't actually do much to create diverse programming, where diverse programming ensures that your audience sees people of their backgrounds reflected in the programming.
Sam Adams rank	Wed Apr 14 22:09:16 2021 "Given that the standard answer as to why diversity is a good thing from a corporate perspective is precisely around diversity of thought" The woke crusade looking to mandate "thought diversity". Except for any opinion that disagrees of course.
chuck rank	Wed Apr 14 22:19:32 2021 Yikes. I wonder if the diversity chief would have found it problematic if the character was written to be <ethnicity> enough, but the people who had written the character thusly were white. Wouldn't that make it appropriation?
Forwyn rank	Wed Apr 14 22:34:54 2021 "diverse programming ensures that your audience sees people of their backgrounds reflected in the programming." And it seems a bit contrived, based on a stereotype. http://en....nited_Kingdom#Country_of_birth The first Caribbean nation is #22, passing up South Africa, Nigeria, and Zimbabwe.
Nimatzo rank	Wed Apr 14 23:45:34 2021 "the problem with people like nim is that they actually believe that these sentiments are wide spread and base their entire politics around it." The problem with people like you is that people like me have to qualify that the fucking BBC is an important institute with meaningful impact on news and culture. And I can show you dozens of these institutes with these sentiments and you will keep saying stuff like "the problem with people like so and so, is that they think these ideas are widespread". What does it mean that the BBC has spent 100 million pounds, which is like 5000 billion dollars or something, on making diversity part of every conversation? Are these ideas wide spread? Do they have huge impact while having guaranteed income? Yea, they will send the police to your home if you don't pay TV license fees. Are you aware Brits and Swedes and many Europeans, have money forcibly taken from them under threat of violence, specifically to finance their own brain washing? Distasteful if you ask me, at least have the decency to have the secret police do it covertly. I am paying for it, I think I deserve better.
Nimatzo rank	Wed Apr 14 23:49:33 2021 And what is this "my entire politics"? I keep hearing people say this, "he is obsessed with this or that". None of my foreign politics is based on this, my financial policies, science and education, no one is a bigger supporter of science and education than me. My platform has exceptional width, tremendous width and depth and I think we will prove that 2024.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 00:09:48 2021 Seb "he is pretty odd and unrealistic compared to Afro Caribbean Brits" He may not fit your stereotype of an Afro Carribean Brit, I grant you. "that point he was making is that writing a character like Luther and casting Idris Elba is all well and good but doesn't actually do much to create diverse programming, where diverse programming ensures that your audience sees people of their backgrounds reflected in the programming." Diverse from whose eyes? If minority voice are important, like gay voice and trans voice are important in a cis gendered heteronormativ frame, that why are the "odd" Caribbean voice not important within the "regular" Caribbean community? That is the point, diversity is dictated by the white hetro majority. Diversitet is for their sake, not anyone else. It isn't a real commitment to diversity, if you ask me. But no one ever asks me :(
Habebe rank	Thu Apr 15 01:15:25 2021 Nim, http://youtu.be/t28ZB1t6gg8 I felt it was appropriate.
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 01:20:39 2021 Chuck: Yeah, this is a difficult balancing act. Easy to veer from charicature to meaningless tokenism. That doesn't make it invalid to point out merely casting black actors doesn't necessarily achieve representation from an audience perspective. Forwyn: Country of birth Vs ethnicity. If the expectation that from first generation you assimilate entirely? Cf. Hilarious American Irish or American Scots. Nim: The writer explicitly stated that the character was written with a view that he was white, and only became black in so far as the actor who portrays him is black. There is no thought to what it would actually mean for that characters to be black. So this is the flip side of people who complain about e.g. gender reversed casts of Shakespeare plays - it is tokenistic and rings hollow etc etc The argument is simple enough - does Luther work as a means to allow many black BBC license fee payers to see themselves represented in BBC dramas? Not really. Yes he's played by a black man, but the character doesn't reflect their lives etc. any more than ax drama about rich private school London professionals is reprsentative of the lives of poor, working class Liverpudlians, even if the actor playing the part is in fact someone who grew up poor, working class in Liverpool. If you take race out of the the issue, its a bland and simple point; and it's insane to get this worked up about it. And yes, absolutely, there's a fine line between representation and prejudiced charicature. That's one in the reasons you would tend to get someone who knows what it's like to be a poor, urban, working class Northern kid to write the drama and not rely on the stereotyped imagination of a rich, public school educated person. This is such a yawn fest. Can't you find something actually controversial to get worked up about?
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 01:22:45 2021 BBC: "hey guys, tokenistic casting isn't enough if we want to be representative in a way that our audience accepts reflects their own lives." Nim: "FUCKERS! DID YOU NOT CONSIDER THERE MIGHT BE SOME PEOPLE WHO LUTHER DOES ACCURATELY REPRESENT?! FUCKING RACIST FUCKERS!!!!"
Forwyn rank	Thu Apr 15 01:56:13 2021 Yeah, it's pretty racist to say that a black casting isn't "black enough" because he doesn't reflect a specific subculture.
chuck rank	Thu Apr 15 02:30:49 2021 Seb: What if it isn't a difficult balancing act, but actually a Sisyphean boulder? There will always be new edicts and initiatives. It's hard to imagine a "diversity chief" stepping back, looking proudly at what they've wrought and saying "we did it!" Has this mythical difficult balance ever been achieved, or is it just another thing in life to be nagged about?
Habebe rank	Thu Apr 15 03:07:47 2021 With streaming services and YT everyone can have their niche shows. If such a market exists for it, what is stopping them from making a really black, carribean Brit? There are shows for every sect, no matter how small.
kargen rank	Thu Apr 15 06:31:53 2021 "John is intuitive and instinctive but not always with the support of objective reasoning. His problem-solving prowess and particularly high capabilities in passion without evidence often allow him to overwhelm suspects, and even his fellow officers. Perhaps the most powerful attribute is his tenacity and almost obsessive commitment to work - a commitment that costs him dearly. With the physique of a military veteran, Luther is physically intimidating and robust. His strength is of especial benefit, and he displays sufficient skills in hand-to-hand combat, although he rarely engages in combat with other people" The beauty of that description is race doesn't matter. Throwing something arbitrary in just to make sure everybody knows the character is black would be more racist than just assuming his race is incidental to the character that he is.
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 10:22:32 2021 Forwyn: You are getting the focus wrong. The point being made was not that it is wrong that Luther isn't written as a black charchter, merely that it isn't sufficient for representation. This is the same arguments that have been made about regional accents, class, the nations of the UK etc. And if you replaced "black" with any of those, this would be utterly uncontroversial. Chuck: Well, a lot of focus has been given to other demographics in this way without much controversy: class, regional accents, the UK nations etc. Habebe: BBC is a state run service and the entire point is that "nation should speak unto nation" without exclusively catering to the mores of the richest. Kargen: Yup, and that's great. But it's also not representative. The point is that there is room for both.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 12:02:13 2021 "There is no thought to what it would actually mean for that characters to be black." Because you have a stunted idea of what "black" is and what it should be. You claim you champion minorities, but remain willfully ignorant on the "uncle tom" and "house nigger" stereotypes that exists within every minority communities. Look Rutherford, this lion doesn't roar, the good people of London pay good money to come and see lions that roar. Psst, You are the guy talking to Rutherford. "tokenistic casting" Jesus Christ, you will never understand how disgusting these idea are. Hey look guys, we expect black people to be a certain way, so just casting someone with black skin, that otherwise does not behave like the stereotypical black person will not be accepted by the audience of one of our most popular shows. "There is no thought to what it would actually mean for that characters to be black." Not type casting black actors, is apparently a bad thing, I understand. This show is too progressive for your brand of racism, we all have improvements to make.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 12:09:16 2021 Nim: "FUCKERS! DID YOU NOT CONSIDER THERE MIGHT BE SOME PEOPLE WHO LUTHER DOES ACCURATELY REPRESENT?! FUCKING RACIST FUCKERS!!!!" Uhm...no. Rather, stop being offended by character who break norms. Which, is one of the pillars of diversity. But every time that happens, legions of racists come out of the woods to tell them they are not "authentic" or "believable". These diversity people are selected on the basis of their understanding of the MAJORITY culture, that happens to be a minority in a foreign land. It is amazing you are so blind to these things. Do you know how many times my "authenticity" has been questions by immigrants and Swedes? Even well meaning people trying to tell me, I should be proud of my culture/history. I am like, bitch, what do you know about my pride and understanding of my heritage? Who the fuck are you to tell me who I am and what to value? How about you treat me like an individual, instead of looking for a representative examples of some exotic specie of monkey?
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 12:17:22 2021 "but the character doesn't reflect their lives etc." He reflects "their" lives, like gay characters reflect the lives of people in a majority heterosexual society. Is it really that hard to grasp, that your idea of "diversity" is completely from the eyes of the white majority culture and based on a first order analysis? Represent gays, because gays are a minority, represent blacks because they are a minority, black person behaves like white, SYNTAX ERROR.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 12:41:38 2021 "The point is that there is room for both." Which is why it is commented as "not authentic". Nothing makes me feel more invited into a room than being told I am "odd".
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 12:42:37 2021 Nim: Replace Black with "working class liverpudlian". It's perfectly possible to have black people playing characters like Luther and still think that in addition, there needs to be more characters that represent authentic lives of particular demographics. The point that is being made isn't that Luther needs to be re written to have more stereotypical characteristics, it's simply that having Luther played by Idris Elba doesn't automatically make the character representative.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 12:49:10 2021 "working class liverpudlian" Working class from a specific city, is far more narrowed down and specific than "black", which includes everyone from Ta-Nehisi Coates to Thomas Sowell. Is a working class boy who goes to university and makes a class journey, friends upper class people and eats upper class food, "not authentic"? You only confirm my assertions about you. "It's perfectly possible to have black people playing characters like Luther and still think that in addition, there needs to be more characters that represent authentic lives of particular demographics." It isn't perfectly possible when people like you think it is "odd" and "not authentic" whenever anyone strays from the white majority idea of diversity.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 13:02:27 2021 This view of diversity has the same structural problem as categorizing species, before the theory of evolution. Everything was viewed and cataloged as a static snapshot, everything is constant and unchanging nothing evolves. At least with diversity we do not suffer from the disadvantage of only living a fraction of evolutionary timescale, we can actually witness the evolution of a person from one to another in a lifetime or less.
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 13:12:18 2021 Nim: "Working class from a specific city, is far more narrowed down and specific than "black"" Exactly. "anyone strays from the white majority idea of diversity." Or indeed, arguing that your entire ethnicity and culture is represented by someone conforming to the white majority default but with black skin. The clue is in the name of the term, diversity.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 13:37:51 2021 seb "Exactly." What, exactly? "arguing that your entire ethnicity and culture is represented by someone conforming to the white majority default but with black skin." Who argues this? Do you argue that your identity and culture is captured with the depiction of a gay character? Is it odd that there are gay characters on TV? What the fuck is the "white majority default"? Me and my wife am currently watching a Swedish series on Netflix called "Snabba Cash", it depicts "authentic immigrants" in the so called "no go zones", without exception people like you would find them all "authentic". Now, I, do not identify with these people, the way they talk, the way the walk, or the way they live, but I know they are a fair depiction of reality. But I also have a wider frame of reference that a Netflix series. I grew up in these areas, I know the diversity within the community, I know people like Luther. They are "authentic" individuals.
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 14:39:02 2021 Nim: "What, exactly?" That peoples identities are far more nuanced than simply black - hence when try say (as they do) that they want to see more people "like them" portrayed in dramas, simply casting a guy with black skin, of who grew up in Liverpool, isn't sufficient. Your point is that there are a diversity of ethnic groups and no one "authentic" presentation. Which means you agree with the original point that the diversity chief made: pointing at Luther and saying "look, we did diversity" isn't sufficient. Incidentally you've somehow decided I've created this authenticity thing as a means to define you to a stereotype. I'd gently point out I'm paraphrasing the complainants and critiques of various community bodies; and in any case you once used to argue that stereotypes were valid.
chuck rank	Thu Apr 15 14:53:17 2021 I'll never understand defending this. 1. TV - especially mindless procedurals, reality TV, and so on - is detrimental to viewers. The more they consume, they worse off they will be for it by almost any reasonable utility metric you could put forward. 2. Recognizing that TV is not some hall of virtue to be enshrined in, the idea of "everybody deserves to see their own authentic selves represented in TV serials" becomes as ridiculous a thing to say as "everybody deserves to see their own authentic selves represented in cigarette advertisements." I'm curious seb, since you point out that the BBC goes to lengths to handle representation in terms of regions and accents and that there's never a fuss about that, do you recall the diversity chief putting out any press releases about the lack of people from the Norf? You point to the hubbub here with the implication that the people who find it silly are the ones hunting for mountains among the molehills, but have you considered perhaps that this is an issue because someone at BBC made it one? "Black actor's character not black enough" looks an awful lot like clickbaity bomb throwing... Perhaps Luther's lack of authenticism towards this particular demographic will inspire them to tune out and with their new found spare time they will make their lives a little bit better instead of sitting around waiting for TV executives to harangue TV writers into capturing their true essence.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 15:43:53 2021 Seb "That peoples identities are far more nuanced than simply black - hence when try say (as they do) that they want to see more people "like them" portrayed in dramas, simply casting a guy with black skin, of who grew up in Liverpool, isn't sufficient." I don't see the problem with this. Do you? I just explained to you that I an enjoying a TV series with people we would consider "authentic" Swedish "ghetto" immigrants. You are the one who think it is odd when TV characters stray from the norms of your accepted stereotypes. And btw where is the opinion poll on what black brits think about Luther and how it represents them? Sounds like a lot of assertions out the bum there buddy :) "Your point is that there are a diversity of ethnic groups and no one "authentic" presentation" My outlook is far more individualistic than the norm. I try my best to not put people in boxes, and I expect them to return the favor. Is there a majority representation of blacks in britain, certainly. Is Luther that? No. I fail to see the problem, everything on TV isn't meant to please everyone every day. Which is what makes the BBC's "diversity part of every conversational" fucking mental and tyrannical.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 16:05:11 2021 "and in any case you once used to argue that stereotypes were valid." Yes stereotypes are valid, like 50% or the time, 50% of the time they are not. This is the literature. And that isn't useless information, it just isn't all that useful either. "Incidentally you've somehow decided I've created this authenticity thing as a means to define you to a stereotype." I don't think you created anything to do me anything. I think you support these things from a well meaning place, but ultimate one of ignorance. I do not blame you, but being married to a minority, actually puts you at a disadvantage, because you will always feel you have to defer to the love of your life's experience, since you have none of your own on the matter. You can not call the bullshit of minorities as it relates to their experience as minorities. You could, but your sensibilities are mild mannered and perhaps too decent. I want to mention these things, before it sounds like I am throwing you into a shredder. I am not, you are a good person, but flawed like the rest of us and as far as flaws goes, there are far worse ones to have.
Seb rank	Thu Apr 15 17:02:56 2021 Chuck: ", do you recall the diversity chief putting out any press releases about the lack of people from the Norf?" Yes. It was interminable column inches throughout the 90s and early 2000s. Too much period drama catering to the upper middle class frequenters of opera, followed by a wave of gritty Northern dramas to counter balance. Is representation silly or not? I can buy the idea that as a public sector broadcaster, the beeb needs to stay relevant. I can also buy that people are more likely to watch things they see themselves in. You only need to look at the US preference to remake films and TV series with American actors (even when the original is in English) and how commercial made for global streaming need to "americanise" aspects of their setting (there was a comedy recently, sex education, set in a British school which they actually set up like an American high school to be more appealing to international audience). I just don't think it's that big a deal. Nim: "You are the one who think it is odd when TV characters stray from the norms of your accepted stereotypes." I think you have contrived quite hard to form this opinion - and while I admire your heroic struggle to overcome the actuality of what I have written; much as a man who had chosen to conquer Everest without oxygen bottles, I am afraid it is an endeavour now best observed from a distance.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 18:04:19 2021 Seb Did I now? ”In so far as the character Luther is black, he is pretty odd and unrealistic compared to Afro Caribbean Brits.” You don’t even have the courtesy to say the average Afro Carribbean Brit, but you claim all of them. Let me be frank (you can still be seb), but most minorities, do not want a single part of their identity to be ”part of every conversation”. Because most ”minorities” do not believe this is the most interesting or important thing about them (or anything) in every room and conversation. Some of these people are even stereotypically gay, immigrant etc. It is, INSANE to make _any_ topic part of every conversation ”without negotiation”. Even as far as mindless virtue signaling on the part of the BBC, this is extreme.
Forwyn rank	Thu Apr 15 19:38:02 2021 "merely that it isn't sufficient for representation. This is the same arguments that have been made about regional accents, class, the nations of the UK etc." And instead of saying that he didn't represent a specific subculture, with intentional scenes added to represent Caribbean food, and the brooding Luther out to brunch with his black Jamaican friends with proper accents having mimosas, she said he isn't black enough.
seb rank	Thu Apr 15 20:06:32 2021 Nim: You are reading things that are not there in a desperate quest to take offense. forwyn: Luther's writer has explicitly stated he wasn't written as black. Luther is a charachter who could be any race, that is played by a black man, but doesn’t work as representative of the black british community.
Nimatzo rank	Thu Apr 15 21:19:54 2021 Seb Not the least, not by you. I already said explicitly, I think you are a good person. I don’t find your opinions offensive and certainly not that you are trying to offend me. I think you are wrong and I disagree with you. But in another life seb, I was a comedian/satirist. Like did anyone see my Trump impression in this thread? I thought it was pretty good :)
kargen rank	Thu Apr 15 21:56:28 2021 "Yup, and that's great. But it's also not representative." Representative of what? A stereotype formed by you and others? "The point is that there is room for both." So you want the character to be schizophrenic. Maybe instead another show can have a character that fits your perceived stereotype so you can then claim blaxploitation.
jergul rank	Thu Apr 15 23:40:22 2021 Lift up you heads a bit. Representative and local content broadcasting is important. The idea behind a state channel definitely should not be mono culture.
Forwyn rank	Fri Apr 16 01:56:27 2021 "Luther is a charachter who could be any race, that is played by a black man, but doesn’t work as representative of the black british community." So yeah, if played by a black actor, we need the additions of food and brunch scenes. Because the only black Brits are from the Caribbean. lol
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 02:02:23 2021 He should be be criminal and rap.
obaminated rank	Fri Apr 16 04:44:04 2021 The left is eating itself.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 10:10:46 2021 Jergul "The idea behind a state channel definitely should not be mono culture." It really shouldn't, but it seems people have different opinions about what constitutes the mono culture of their lives. Someone like the diversity chief of BBC and an assimilated afro carribean like Luther, will have wildly differing opinions about it. The principle problem IMO is the idea that there is this discussion, that needs to be, "part of every conversation without negotiation" and I contrast that with seb saying "it isn't a big deal". I don't know enough post modern math, to solve this equation.
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 10:19:30 2021 Nothing says quality television like a diversity Czar...
jergul rank	Fri Apr 16 10:27:00 2021 Nimi The BBC is pretty much solely responsible for standarizing UK (Queen's) English as the acceptable norm for use in polite society. It does have quite the historic debt. I could list many examples relating to for example Wales and Scotland.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 10:55:49 2021 Kargen: By various groups commissioning about the lack of their representation. "So you want the character to be schizophrenic." Er, no. Why would that be required? Or do you think Luther should be the only black lead in any drama?
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 10:59:31 2021 Forwyn: "So yeah, if played by a black actor, we need the additions of food and brunch scenes. Because the only black Brits are from the Caribbean. lol" Wow, just ... the lack of basic reading comprehension. The argument is simply that casting black man does not make the drama representative. It does not mean that all drama must be representative, all roles written with a particular demography in mind and cast as such. It just literally means "hey, we need to write some stories with characters that our audience identify with". I have absolutely no idea why you are creating these absurd, extremist straw men arguments.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 11:01:50 2021 Nim: "Someone like the diversity chief of BBC and an assimilated afro carribean like Luther, will have wildly differing opinions about it." Only if the assimilated afro Caribbean is arguing that somehow, that a portrayal of an Afro Caribbean character who isn't so thoroughly assimilated is somehow wrong.
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 11:07:05 2021 " Er, no. Why would that be required? Or do you think Luther should be the only black lead in any drama?" 4% of ypur programing should have black leads. Split evenly between male and female. If it's to.be representative of the population.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 11:08:22 2021 Right, you guys do understand that this was *not* a call for Luther to be re written with more Caribbean food; it was to highlight the difference between embracing colour blind casting (we cast a black actor into a role that was written for the cultural norm) versus diversity in representation of the various ethnic grooups in the stories the drama tells. Trainspotting wouldn't be a story about drug use in Scotland if it was set in Oxford University and the kids were all middle class ex Eton baronetts and snorting coke. Even if you cast the entire lot with ex junkie Scottish actors. This isn't rocket science folks.
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 11:13:03 2021 You need more old white women on tv.
jergul rank	Fri Apr 16 11:44:08 2021 Its ultimately just about everyone being able to see themselves on screen occassionally. Monoculture is not a gloal for anyone. HBO and Netflix both have local content provisions in Norway for example.
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 12:07:26 2021 Monoculture clearly is a goal for some. But others want to over represent groups to be all woke because of white guilt.To each their own. It makes for shitty films like the last SW trilogy.
jergul rank	Fri Apr 16 12:10:06 2021 Monoculture is the goal for whom exactly?
Habebe rank	Fri Apr 16 12:10:21 2021 Its one thing to encourage diversity. Its another to enshrine it by force.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 12:21:20 2021 Seb Are you arguing that, a portrayal of an Afro Caribbean character who is thoroughly assimilated is somehow wrong? If not, then why would anyone need to argue the opposite? One very basic definition of racism is the regression to stereotypes. ”Trainspotting wouldn't be a story about drug use in Scotland if it was set in Oxford University” Luther is a story about a cop, who happens to be black. Not a stereotypical black guy who also is a cop. His race was never important for the character, it was on that basis Elba accepted the role. Every character does not have to conform to stereotypes, I know you agree, then what is the problem? Jergul ”Everyone” would include assimilated black cops, who do not stick to the rule book, like Luther :) But ultimately ”the self” is more than skin color and ethnicity for the vast majority of people. It isn’t this constant variable that we lumber around like a cumbersome backpack to unpack and discuss in every room and conversation. This is actually difficult to understand, it is like rocket science. Only a small fraction of any group hold their ethnicity as the center piece of their identity. Generally these people are quite racist. The fact that they are now minorities in another country, is incidental to their racism.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 12:24:39 2021 ”Not a stereotypical black guy who also is a cop.” Haha I just remembered, this show was already made by Martin Lawrence, and then 3 (?) Bad boy movies with him and Will Smith about stereotypical black cops. Nostalgia just hit me, Martin and Fresh Prince, I grew up on those shows :,)
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 16:21:21 2021 Nim: "Are you arguing that, a portrayal of an Afro Caribbean character who is thoroughly assimilated is somehow wrong?" *Deep sigh* No. No I'm not. Nor was the diversity chief.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 16:28:25 2021 Nim: "Every character does not have to conform to stereotypes, I know you agree, then what is the problem?" I literally explained that point in the preceding paragraph. You are reading the remarks as a criticism of Luther, rather than as an explanation as to why Luther isn't necessarily helping achieve representation. That is all.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 16:39:52 2021 I will use her exact words to lead you there,: ”unreal”, ”not believable”, ”not black enough”. Which, from her view as she has problematized it, she thinks is a problem since it doesn’t represent nor aligns with her mission. AKA wrong. Don’t be like this ok? Don’t answer the set up question and not the salient question, why does anyone else have to argue the opposite? Because we both seem to agree, neither stereotype, nor leaving the stereotype is a problem. So why is this a problem? I will tell you what I think. The problem is that this is exactly what the BBC is spending 100 million pounds on to make sure race is part of every conversation without negotiation. Among other things it includes problematizing shows like Luther who do not conform to stereotypical black characters. I doubt they understand the scope of their commitment and all the unintended conversations and outcomes that comes with it. Because the content of this thread could have been predicted when the casting was done.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 16:41:14 2021 Seb I understand the problem perfectly. I called it INSANE, many posts ago.
Seb rank	Fri Apr 16 19:20:59 2021 Nim: Highlighting the deficiencies of Luther in terms of representation is not the same thing as advocating that Luther itself is bad because it isn't representational. It's called juxtaposition.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 20:31:52 2021 Absolutely, let’s call it ”juxtaposition”, they way you call ”stereotype”, ”authentic”. Let the words create reality.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Apr 16 20:34:12 2021 Let’s do that, but let us not pretend, this is the desires outcome of the BBC chief and what she would have rather seen, because she told us what she would have rather seen.
jergul rank	Sat Apr 17 01:14:31 2021 Its not something she would rather see instead of Luther, its something she would rather see on tv period.
jergul rank	Sat Apr 17 01:15:26 2021 Luther is like critisising Schindler for not doing enough for Jews. Well, yah, perhaps. But there are better targets.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 12:00:36 2021 Which brings us back to the 100 million pound project to problematize, well, this and virtually everything relating to diversity. Blind to the opportunity costs, bad will and other unintended consequence when we hold non negotiable obsessions like this. Intuitively we should know, those are costs, comparable in magnitude to the thing we are trying to combat with diversity programs. These costs are not acrued among the white majority culture only, but also among people in the same minority groups. People who have their ethnic heritage as one dynamic part if their identity, or not at all. You tell me, is your ethnic heritage part of, and an equally large part of, every conversation? Seems like a huge and extreme commitment, generally undertaken by people who are, I have no better word, racist. You can take racist people from another culture and transplant them as minorities in another culture. It can give rise to these strange but systematic effects nested within each other, but the components are all well known.
Seb rank	Sun Apr 18 19:43:54 2021 Nim, isn't problemetising diversity exactly what you are doing here?
jergul rank	Sun Apr 18 20:09:45 2021 Nimi The BBC is not a neutral force. Untempered it will drift society towards monoculture. The 100 million pounds worth of diverse and regional programming is the temper.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 20:18:28 2021 In that light, the primary drivers of diversity are not a neutral force. Temper the temper.
jergul rank	Sun Apr 18 20:22:50 2021 Nimi Diversity is a good thing. Its why you had to learn Swedish instead of just pining away knowing mere English and Farsi.
Seb rank	Sun Apr 18 20:35:17 2021 Nimatzo: There's no neutral force. Put it this way, for the same reason we have Welsh programming (the Welsh will eventually stop wanting to pay the license fee if the BBC produces content they think careers only to Londoners).
Seb rank	Sun Apr 18 20:38:43 2021 I think the biggest problem Nim may have with this is he thinks there's a single host culture to integrate with. The UK has never been a single nation, and there's huge variation even within the four main nations. Catering to various immigrant communities is an extension of that. The problem in the UK is the very large English community which (despite being divided into various sub communities) sea itself as the natural default and other communities as being deviant or subversive. And this is why the Union is in danger.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 20:57:02 2021 Jergul Yes diversity is a good thing, but you skirt the motte and bailey with that generic statement, dozen of posts in about the devil in the details of diversity. Yes diversity is a good thing, I find Luther diverse relative to the stereotypical depictions of black people that I have seen nu entire life. Also! The reason the monoculture reference isn’t having an effect, is because ”mono” was not the salient descriptor in my abstraction of wahabism, it was the ”hostile to any foreign influence and innovation from within”. I will remove ”mono” from it and it will still describe wahanism perfectly. We can not say that about British culture, in fact in many ways the openness and liberal attitudes of Britain, makes it the exact opposite of a culture hostile to all foreign influence and innovation within.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 21:00:10 2021 ”I think the biggest problem Nim may have with this is he thinks there's a single host culture to integrate with.” Deal with the problems I have unpacked and stop making up ones that don’t exist. This thread started with the diversity chief of the BBC having problems with a character that doesn’t conform to stereotype. In PC speach ”not authentic”.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 21:10:29 2021 Dear Seb The fact that your culture is a hodgepodge of everything from the world - you stole word and ideas as well as tangible stuff - is well known. But this Luther show is a very specific thing to have problems with. What is the intention, that all black characters be stereotype? Of course not, but then someone needs to qualify why this, now. And I have already answered that, someone has a job problematizing things that are not problems, otherwise they don’t have a job.
Seb rank	Sun Apr 18 21:30:16 2021 Nim: "your culture is a hodgepodge of everything from the world" Way to confuse two entirely different things. The fact we have adopted all sorts of things wouldn't preclude us being homogenous. I'm talking about there being multiple English (North, South, Cornish), Scottish (Highlands, Lowlands, Islands), Welsh, Irish (Protestant, Catholic) identities that are far from homogeneous and demand representation. So when you talk about an "assimilated" character like Luther, we are generally talking about someone written as a middle class Londoner - itself a major bugbear of many of the above groups as overrepresented by the London based BBC. The BBCs mission was for "Nation to speak unto Nation", not "act as a cultural homogenising force to educate everyone in How to Be British (by which we mean adopt the cultural mores of middle class residents of London and the South East). Anyway, there we go. Like I said, in context, the diversity chief wasn't making a general criticism of Luther. She was making the point that Luther wasn't representative. Something the writer agrees with. You are problemetising this, insisting that the intent was to say all black characters must be stereotypical. But that wasn't ever the argument she was making. Hence, you are problemetising a very simple and long standing issue. The UK is multicultural. It has always been multicultural. Because it is a union of already diverse nations.
Nimatzo rank	Sun Apr 18 22:48:31 2021 sigh..seb "There's no neutral force." I'm gonna take this and wrap it up for my part. 1. I don't believe in neutral forces in media, in fact that is by and large the reason I am against the existence of entities like the BBC and Swedish SVT. Specifically the way they are financed. I think we should abolish tax funded news media, yesterday. 2. The only one who seems to think anyone is neutral, are those who think the diversity chief is merely "juxtaposing" things and stuff and not that she thinks this development (the most popular black character on TV isn't "authentically" black) is bad for her intended mission, AKA wrong. The conversation died when you refused to grant even the most basic truth. The final nail, is this dirty semantic game, where we change words, but keep the same meaning. Like when "stereotype" becomes "authentic" and pretend like we were not railing against stereotyping people. Hilarious.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 00:02:42 2021 Nim: 1) How does that follow, exactly? Also, again, your typical muddled thinking: there not being a neutral position didn't mean you can't have a broadcaster offering a range of positions or providing news from an objective factual position. 2) Ah,I see, there no neutral position but only one objectively correct position, yours? "this dirty semantic game, where we change words, but keep the same meaning" As opposed to your bait and switch where you change the meaning of the same word; but object to nuance! And you've spent good knows how many pages on the past arguing that stereotypes are often based on fact, citing authoritative sources! It seems you have a very flexible position that can encompass all sorts of contradictions. Fundamentally you are tilting at windmills here. They might be giants, or you might have an overactive imagination.
Wrath of Orion rank	Mon Apr 19 00:23:01 2021 What does Idris Elba think of this?
kargen rank	Mon Apr 19 00:54:20 2021 Maybe more important is what do the viewers think.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 08:46:08 2021 WoO: He said something cryptic that can be read either way. Smart chap. Kargen: Which viewers? Also because it's publically funded, the question is also what the people who aren't viewing but would be viewing otherwise might think.
TJ rank	Mon Apr 19 16:37:22 2021 “We must not pull ourselves backwards, only push ourselves forwards.” That was not a cryptic response, it was from the the spirit of a pioneer for progress. It couldn't have been more explicit responding to the criticism with precise and tactful language. Bravo for him.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Apr 19 16:42:38 2021 In a few years I will create a thread and tell you, I told you so as this current paradigm of ”diversity” unravels. Extremist positions are not sustainable. who aren't viewing but would be viewing otherwise might think.”
Nimatzo rank	Mon Apr 19 16:51:35 2021 ”who aren't viewing but would be viewing otherwise might think.” They are watching youtube and netflix and dozens of other streaming services. It is game over, the BBC just refuses to understand it. These bloated public service institutes are where the music industry was 20 years ago. Music has never been as democratic, representative, vibrant and diverse (creatively) as it is today. To get there however, the old music industry had to die.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 17:42:29 2021 TJ: Who is pulling is backwards? The BBC diversity chief, or the hostile media reaction he was asked to respond to?
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 17:44:05 2021 Nim: Your view on what is actually being proposed is much more extreme than what is proposed. Assuming you haven't gone deeper down the rabbit hole, I expect you will be living in the world advocated by these people and explaining how you were right all along because the strawmen never materialised.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 17:48:45 2021 Nim: "They are watching youtube and netflix and dozens of other streaming services." The large number of Netflix programs that are actually BBC productions tells a more nuanced story. And nobody goes to Netflix for news and political commentary, and their nature documentaries are straight off the BBC. Public sector broadcasters have a role. Netflix data driven commissioning model tends to produce derivative products. But for PSBs to continue to fulfill the function of filing the gaps in the market, it needs to also cater to the full breadth of the society it services.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Apr 19 18:55:24 2021 Seb ”Your view” Is more difficult for you to parse, than if we were to ask you to create a commercial fusion reactor, you have actually made some progress on the latter. ”And nobody goes to Netflix for news and political commentary” Did you also read ”youtube”? Trivial example, but that is talking to you in a nutshell. You read half, understand half of that and answer half of that.
TJ rank	Mon Apr 19 18:58:01 2021 Seb: Seems that he reacted to all the links in the chain of events. I understood it to be a complete response. Rainbows and melting glaciers.
Rugian rank	Mon Apr 19 19:07:02 2021 This is going to be one of those things where five years from now everybody will just accept that black characters can't have white friends, and if you disagree then you're a complete bigot who should be socially ostracized.
Rugian rank	Mon Apr 19 19:08:37 2021 The point has been made, but it shouldn't be weird that a black character would hang around white people in a series being filmed in a country that's 85% white.
Nimatzo rank	Mon Apr 19 19:22:25 2021 Which is the real oddity, that you can move to Sweden or Britain live, work and die here, and not befriend a single Brit or Swede. Gotta keep it real and stay true to your roots.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 21:31:30 2021 Nim: Sigh. People don't to you tube to get their news and political commentary either, not in significant numbers compared to the BBC broadcast or website.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 21:32:07 2021 My failure to exhaustively list every streaming service clearly invalidates everything.
Seb rank	Mon Apr 19 21:32:47 2021 Nim: Look at Rugians comment. See what I mean?
Nimatzo rank	Mon Apr 19 21:33:25 2021 Ok boomer.
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