Utopia Talk / Politics / Ukraine and Jerguls love for Russia

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 24 08:48:17 I served my country according to its expectations of me. This is even worse than someone referencing decades old degrees and publishing record. But congruent with your behavior on Ukraine. Oh look I said/did this thing back then. And it makes up for everything afterwards! But not even tyat good, you were forced by law. You may as well say racist stuff and tell us you had a black adopted friend in high school. “The US is the premier global player. There are many interesting reflections to be made about what it does and does not do.” Yeah, but the devil is in the details and you are the portal to hell on this issue. “Are they truly living in the best of all possible worlds?” I am not an idealist. So this question doesn’t mean anything to me. I think many things are better in American than Norway and Sweden. Significant things that prepares them better for the unknown challenges that no doubt awaits us all. “Lets put it another way. What country do you think the 20 last shows or movies I have watched are from? Or the last 20 books I have read for that matter.” I watch American movies therefor something something. Did you read me above called it with the black friend? Come on man! You have a degree in being Russian! You are more Russian than the average Russian! You are asking me to forget 20 years of posts based on some really ridiculous stuff, only after being called out. That is congruent with a rusbot doing damage control after his cover is blown :-) I have known about your degree for years Jergul. And you know I have. Always found it funny, because you have always been Russophilic. Then again I am 99% sure that you mentioned this on UP many many years ago. I just thought it was unfair that you were being painted out as some two bit rusbot, when reality is that you are more educated about Russia, than most Russians.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 09:04:02 Knowing of something does not mean approving of something or even liking it very much. Fair enough that I get Russians of my generation or older 7 times of 10. Does that mean I think they are worthy of imitation and I think we should all be like them? Absolutely not. The problem is as always the tribal tint of your glasses and your primitive us-them, good-evil dichotomies. Russia has reformulated its diplomatic position. No ceasefire or frozen conflict without a final peace settlement. Recognition of crimeadonbas+ right to self-determination as expressed by referenda. Enshrined Ukrainian neutrality in constitution and with international guarantees. Nothing new really, but clearer than it has been.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 09:14:45 I may have taken a class in european (not russian) history, therefore something, something and may once had known about as much Russian as the average 4 year old native speaker therefore something something. I am far more immersed in American culture and have magnitudes better language skills in English. So use the same "analytical" tool and conclude that I am an Americaphile. Your confirmation bias is just stunningly blatant. You have decided something, therefore it is. It is highly amusing :).
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 09:36:14 I truly get where you are coming from. I remember being infuriated by your "ingratitude" when you formulated a critique of nordic social democracy. A lapse. I eventually remembered that as a Swede, you have every right to think anyway you want to, that critique is often good, that it takes at least 3 generations to integrate, and even if we disagree, it is ok to disagree. "Ok to disagree" may be your single greatest challenge. If fuels your thoughts on eleborate liberal conspiracies, and channels you into us-them, good-evil dichotomies. You are against abortion. Ok. Lets agree to disagree on that. Can you accept that without thinking me evil and hellbent on exterminating my racial line? Maybe you can, but that would be after one hell of an internal struggle.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 24 10:50:24 "So use the same "analytical" tool and conclude that I am an Americaphile." You turn on the TV/Netflix and this is somehow equal to the effort and dedication to getting a degree. Totes mcgoats. Not getting it, is a choice, though some of it obviously exceeds your "analytical" abilities. "Ok to disagree" It is depressing that you still don't understand the issue, despite me pointing them out to you over the course of 20 years. It's not your opinions, I know people with your opinions IRL (good friends), I have had face to face conversations with women about about abortion who have you opinions, at work. I thought I explained this for you in the DMs. It's not your tribe, not your opinions, not your hair or gut (lol), it's you. Being a know nothing know it all asshole effects "our social and physical world" and the people in it and how they interact with you. Crazy how different your tone and substance is in DMs. You are preforming in public and with that comes maintaining integrity of the ego above all else, that is a good summary of the problem. Notice I am saying the exact same things to you in DMs as in threads, treating you just the same, regardless of who is reading. You are still stuck on that fishing boat with those guys, perhaps even earlier in high school, trying to be the cool kid. That is sad, because you are grandpa age. I had no ideas those many years ago, when I said you are the Nordic Hot Rod, that it was prophecy. I was only kidding Jergul. Use your agency, make a different choice tomorrow. Peace out. My N-word, without the hard R.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 11:08:26 Nimi Wow. Seriously. Are you ok?
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 11:16:29 Anyways: "Russia has reformulated its diplomatic position. No ceasefire or frozen conflict without a final peace settlement. Recognition of crimeadonbas+ right to self-determination as expressed by referenda. Enshrined Ukrainian neutrality in constitution and with international guarantees. Nothing new really, but clearer than it has been". Ukraine still has its 10 point plan as far as I know. Restoration of 92 borders, reparations, ironclad security guarantees. Russian perpetrators of war crimes brought to justice. Status quo is ongoing attritional warfare.
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 24 12:04:37 Nim Maybe disputes over private conversations should be settled privately. Just saying.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 24 12:53:25 There is no dispute over private conversations.
jergul large member	Sun Sep 24 17:32:44 Ultimately though, there may have been a lot of huffha about nothing. I am fine with Ukraine not seeking talks. Legitimacy is still a relative thing even if neither side is waging a just war according to academic criteria. Russia's war is still less legitimate than Ukraine's. I still think Ukraine should lift martial law where possible and should hold elections. But these too are non-binary. Ukraine will not magically lose all legitimacy under martial law, nor will it lose all legitimacy by not holding elections. Neglecting both will simply continue to erode legitimacy overtime from a incredibly high baseline set back in febuary/march 2022. However, slowly degrading legitimacy does explain why international support is slowly falling. Not the only reason. And you could term it differently, but the fact remains that fewer people see heavily supporting Ukraine as a moral imperative. We can let it play out some more. But like I warned, Russia is fine with the way the war is going. It thinks current fighting is bringing it closer to achieving a semblance of its goals. Russia could be wrong, but I am pretty sure I have nailed how it is thinking.
jergul large member	Mon Sep 25 08:20:58 One of the more negative aspects of diminishing support is how support is distributed. Fair enough that almost half the US population want to give some form of aid to Ukraine, but for registered GOP voters, the number is 30% for, 70 against. This helps poloraize politics as it is in GOP politician's interests to solicite the support of the bulk of their votermass. Not only to win primaries, but also for support in general elections. This is not the case only in the US. It is also true in Slovakia, Hungary and Serbia to name a few. Conversely, the UK and Canada are likely immune to those effects. Canada due to characteristics of its demography and one of the largest Ukrainian diasporas in the world.
TheChildren Member	Tue Sep 26 10:14:04 how come all westies silent about da canada and nazi salutes...
murder Member	Tue Sep 26 10:58:20 He is risen! :o) ------------------ Russian Black Sea commander shown after Ukraine said it killed him The commander of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet appeared at a meeting in footage released by the country’s Defense Ministry on Tuesday, leading Ukraine to say it was "clarifying" whether he was dead or alive — a day after claiming to have killed him in a missile strike. The video and photos appeared to show Viktor Sokolov, one of Moscow's most senior naval officers, taking part in a video conference of military leaders that was led by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu. NBC News has not verified when or where the footage was recorded. It comes after Ukraine’s special operations forces said Monday that the commander of the fleet was among 34 officers killed in an attack in the occupied Crimean city of Sevastopol on Friday. After the Russian Defense Ministry released the footage Tuesday, Kyiv said it was "clarifying the information." "As is known, 34 officers were killed as a result of a missile attack on the headquarters of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation. Available sources claim that the commander of the Russian Black Sea Fleet was among the dead. Many still have not been identified due to the disparity of body fragments," the special operations forces said in a post on Telegram. "Since the Russians were urgently forced to publish an answer with an apparently alive Sokolov, our units are clarifying the information. This is happening within the procedure for collecting data on the results of the operation,” the post added. The footage released Tuesday clearly shows Sokolov's face appearing by webcam alongside other senior military figures. At one point in the video, Tuesday's date — "26. 09. 2023" — is visible. His name badge reads "V.N. Sokolov" and a Cyrillic abbreviation for the Black Sea Fleet appears on his screen. State media outlets also reported Sokolov's virtual attendance at the meeting, though they did not say exactly when the meeting took place. Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov declined twice to answer questions about Sokolov in his daily briefing with foreign journalists, instead directing questions to the Defense Ministry. Kyiv did not provide evidence for the claim that it had killed the fleet's commander, which would make Sokolov one of the most high-profile losses among Russia’s military top brass since the war began. Sokolov has led the fleet since August last year, the result of a major reshuffle after the sinking of its Moskva flagship. He rose through a series of posts in the Pacific and Northern fleets, serving as deputy commander in the latter, according to Russian state media. From 2020 he headed a prestigious military academy before taking command of the Black Sea Fleet. Sevastopol’s port is the main base of the fleet, which has been used to launch attacks deep into Ukraine. Kyiv has been waging its own campaign of strikes against Russian targets, increasingly hitting the annexed Crimean Peninsula. Shortly after Friday’s missile strike there, Moscow said that one of its service members was killed and that its defenses intercepted five missiles. It later updated to say that the serviceman was missing. During the meeting released Tuesday, Shoigu gave an update on Russia’s invasion and the creation of eight new military training centers to fast-track new recruits into the armed forces. He also said that Kyiv’s counteroffensive on the battlefield was failing. “The Ukrainian armed forces are suffering serious losses along the entire front line,” Shoigu said. Russia’s bombardment of key infrastructure continued, with strikes on ports and agricultural centers late Monday, Ukraine said. http://www...aine-killed-sokolov-rcna117336
jergul large member	Tue Sep 26 11:07:08 That? The house speaker knew who he invited and did an amazing whitewash of the guy's collaboration with Nazi Germany. He should resign his seat in parliament. The rest? Well, what is the upside of not applauding some old geezer that had just been given a very uplifting description of his service in the waffen-ss? You would never have known he served in German uniform. Of course they clapped. I would have clapped in their shoes. The Canadian Government should appologize to the entire world individually. Canadian soldiers died fighting the waffen-ss. And to Zelenskij. He knows that there is a nazi image problem. Tricking him into air fist pumping someone complicit in the holocaust was simply not nice.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 11:52:19 But Nazis are the good guys now.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 12:03:56 ” Russian Black Sea commander shown after Ukraine said it killed him ” So, Ukraine has been lying again? I’m shocked.
murder Member	Tue Sep 26 12:11:39 "But Nazis are the good guys now." If the Nazis are being invaded and having their country carved up ... then yeah.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 12:17:27 So when the US and Russia invaded Germany and carved it up in two, then the Nazis were the good guys? :)
jergul large member	Tue Sep 26 12:22:21 Ouch. Touche
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 12:23:24 http://youtu.be/vezCq5KcC5c?si=P-Bt5XJntm_4JOJz You only need to watch the first minute. I agree with Jergul. The house speaker should resign and the Canadian government should apologize to the entire world individually.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 13:39:19 The most outrageous thing is that that clown Trudeau, in an interview, first apologized and then blamed all this on ”Russian propaganda”.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 13:40:45 Like, what does Russia got to do with this? It wasn’t Russia who invited the SS Nazi to the Canadian parliament. It was the clown Trudeau himself.
murder Member	Tue Sep 26 14:21:36 "So when the US and Russia invaded Germany and carved it up in two, then the Nazis were the good guys?" It wasn't their country. We didn't carve up Germany, the Russians did. And the Germans became our allies.
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 26 14:28:32 "We didn't carve up Germany, the Russians did." Uh...who wants to tell him?
obaminated Member	Tue Sep 26 14:35:03 You know you've made some serious missteps in an argument when you are defending nazi germany.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 26 14:56:58 The speaker resigned, so now all that is left is a more comprehensive appology to everyone including Zelenskij.
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 26 15:23:34 In all seriousness, inviting the Nazi was a serious faux pas...but a resign-worthy offense? Seems like an extreme punishment for not doing your homework on a guest speaker.
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 26 15:25:54 Or no, the guy didn't even speak, he was just invited to attend a sitting. Not even having heard of Anthony Rota before, this seems like a shitty reason to force him out.
obaminated Member	Tue Sep 26 15:27:07 I dunno. I think my first question when being told my people were gonna invite a ww2 vet would be "which side did he fight on?"
jergul large member	Tue Sep 26 15:27:33 Ruggy Thing is, he did his homework. He knew exactly who the old guy was. The white-wash in the speech is spectacular. The government and parliament as a whole did not know and what were they supposed to do? Not applaud on the off-chance the fellow had a murky wartime past?
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 26 15:33:25 Jergul What makes you think he had knowledge of the dude's background?
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 15:47:45 When the speaker told everyone that the war veteran fought Soviet, a bell should have ringed. Who fought the Soviet during the WW2? The Nazis did.
jergul large member	Tue Sep 26 15:54:19 His speech. It directly referred to the old man fighting Russians during wwii.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 16:01:38 ”the guy didn't even speak, he was just invited to attend a sitting.” The SS Waffen Nazi was there to be presented as a hero.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 16:03:00 lol Trudeau should also resign.
Paramount Member	Tue Sep 26 16:12:40 Being an SS soldier, it means that he swore an oath to Adolf Hitler. Doesn’t it? And then Trudeau is applauding him. And Zelensky who is a jew was raising his fist in air, cheering him. Lol
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 26 16:49:12 It's a bold move to assume that a politician has any knowledge of history, but point taken.
jergul large member	Wed Sep 27 17:56:30 ""I would like to present unreserved apologies for what took place on Friday and to President Zelenskyy and the Ukrainian delegation for the position they were put in," says PM Justin Trudeau" Appology to Zelenskij Check. Now for the rest of the world (Poland perhaps).
jergul large member	Wed Sep 27 17:57:05 Speaker resigned (check) So 2 of 3 so far :)
murder Member	Wed Sep 27 19:15:40 "You know you've made some serious missteps in an argument when you are defending nazi germany." Germany = a nation Nazi = political party / cult ... sort of like the GOP
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 27 19:35:47 Yeah. Predictable. Murder fails to admit he fucked up and now he is equating the GOP with nazis.
Paramount Member	Thu Sep 28 01:11:18 Poland seeks extradiction of the Nazi hero that Trudeau applauded.
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 06:32:53 Maybe. It is not actually the ministry of education that is responsible for extraditions in Poland. But I am open to you talking about a different story. On that. Leave the old fuck alone. That would be scapegoating because of a political scandal.
Paramount Member	Thu Sep 28 10:03:39 Looks like Trudeau told the truth. It was Russian propaganda. http://x.c...?s=61&t=C7YI8upxCqhyhPMRv9y0zg
obaminated Member	Thu Sep 28 11:20:44 http://www...-fighting-against-Ukraine.html Lol. Imagine a universe where the United States resorts to pardoning convicted murderers so long as they agreed to fight in Iraq and Afghanistan. Imagine a universe where the United States had next to no shame and willingly let convicted murderers wear the countries flag in uniform.
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 11:41:11 A world were the US is under an oil embargo perhaps? Or an array of other sanctions crippling your imports? You would use nukes to stop that. No question.
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 11:45:10 But you could very easily come into a position where you either have to resort to conscription again, or defer prison time with a pardon at the end. Prigozin was clear that this was a choice. Either conscription or prisoners. Ukraine, of course, does both http://www...-combat-skills-to-fight-russia
obaminated Member	Thu Sep 28 11:52:38 Remember when jergul feigned to be an unbiased commentator and nim easily proved him wrong? Got em again boys. The guy gladly compares his own socialist democratic country to North Korea to favorably contrast with Russia and now can't bring himself to condemn putin for pardoning convicted murderers, instead he has to claim America would use nukes. Sad. Well not really. Pathetic is the more accurate term.
obaminated Member	Thu Sep 28 11:54:00 Anyways. Jergul you are right. You aren't a pro rus bot only spouting talking points for financial gain. You are a true believer who will say for free what other need to be paid to spew.
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 12:14:44 Nobody is unbiased. My position has been very clear. Russia is totally in the wrong. Ukraine cannot win by the goals it has set itself and is unlikely to win (be in a better longterm social, economic and military position overall) more barring a blackswan series of events. Given this, what can be done? NK has way more policy independence than Norway. What planet are you living on that cannot see that? So, Obam, what can be done?
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 12:16:49 Notice how my argument technique seldom relies on adhoms. You might want to learn something from that.
obaminated Member	Thu Sep 28 12:17:31 I think what the international community is currently doing, effectively starving Russia and giving Ukraine the weapons and funding needed to prevent russias conquest is the best option currently available. If you believe Russia is totally in the wrong and believe in international law I'm sure you agree that stopping Russia is the best and only option on the table.
obaminated Member	Thu Sep 28 12:19:30 I see no problem with addressing a specific point and then using a personal insult to highlight someone's hypocrisy/tunnel vision.
jergul large member	Thu Sep 28 12:27:13 Obam Stopping Russia is not on the table barring a series of black swan events. My position is that sanctions are unrelated to what should be done as those should remain in place regardless as punitive measures for the irreversable nature of the harm Russia has done. They are a constant, not an action. I also have no issue with continued support for Ukraine. Ukrainians themselves have to decide what price they are willing to pay. The only thing we decide is how much treasure we wish to spend helping them. I have no opinion on that, though think we should surge support to unsustainable levels once peace talks without a ceasefire are initiated in earnest. I think your only true issue is my perspective that I think Russia can sustain the conflict and think Ukraine can continue resistance too. In Ukraines case, at a hideous and disproportionate cost imo.
murder Member	Thu Sep 28 19:36:50 "Stopping Russia is not on the table barring a series of black swan events." Like Biden growing a nut.
LazyCommunist Member	Sat Sep 30 05:22:24 Musk is the man! http://pbs...wAABYPZ?format=jpg&name=medium
Paramount Member	Sat Sep 30 07:31:00 Is this typical for Abrams tanks or are Russian tanks better? http://twi...?s=61&t=C7YI8upxCqhyhPMRv9y0zg
jergul large member	Mon Oct 02 05:34:17 Russian tanks (all of them) are way better at that kind of stuff going forward. The main Russian limitation is reverse. Most have shit speed in R and R is kind of important.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Oct 02 05:53:24 It's typical for tanks that have rubber pads on the tracks to not rip up the roads. If you remove them or install steel cleats, it will work better on snow and ice.
jergul large member	Mon Oct 02 07:06:32 You would need to have a pretty sucky crew to use rubber cleats on a obstacle course. Para's link is almost certainly an Abrams in its regular tread configuration. Best practices would use flatbeds to transport tanks to very near their deployment positions. Specialized pads are quite uncommon (though winter padding is the seasonal norm for Russian arctic units and tanks in Nordic forces.
jergul large member	Mon Oct 02 07:08:27 In sum: it is easier to find flatbeds that fuck around with rubber cleats. Though they are used in peacetime excersizes to lower local community whining about short stretches of road having gravel beneath asphalt being crushed.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 03 06:02:52 Jergul: "Russia has Limited territorial ambitions" http://twi...?t=3hs26A0YlDONIZwWrUsCVA&s=19 http://www.newsweek.com/russia-recruitment-ad-soldiers-ukraine-real-estate-1828077 Russia posts recruiting advert for contract soldiers suggesting they will get free plots of land on odessa and discussing victory "all the way to Berlin"
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 06:20:15 Seb And 1980s US recruitment videos meant that you can indeed be the best that you can be by signing a form. Russia has undefined territorial ambitions that do not nessesarily follow Ukrainian administrative divisions. Territorial gains now mainly serve the purpose of keeping attritional warfare at suitable levels and inflicting permanent post conflicts costs on Ukraine. A minor, coincidental effect of Russia's main goal of assuring Ukraine will be unwilling to fight again for a generation. Using post wwi France as a yardstick (5% of total population were combat killed) suggests that threshold is at about 1 million Ukrainian combatants KIA. It hardly matters in any event because what we do or do not do is irrelevant to Russian plans. It has insulated itself from the impacts of any reasonable Wester actions and will plunder along killing Ukrainian soldiers until they are unwilling to be killed any longer. That is pretty much the sum of Russian warplans. A goal in itself. Institutionalized Ukrianian soldier unwillingness to fight is the only way for Russia to reach its security goals. Late 30s France would be the historical comparison.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 06:25:41 Ukraine probably has about 80k combat dead now (give or take whatever number you like. Because nobody knows) over say 18 months of war. So obviously, the plan is going to take a while to implement.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 03 07:33:07 There are other videos of this same event, which is a few years old btw, where the rubber pads are visible. The simple explanation is that the clip is probably part of a demonstration video, to show the effect of steel cleats on snow. Have not found the entire thing, but the crew can been seen working on the tracks in one of them. You gullible dumbasses you :-)
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 07:35:12 So the crew sucked. But did not suck enough to eventually realize they should take off the rubber cleats. Or charitably, were told to check out why rubber cleats are bad by failing an obstacle course.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 07:36:53 Your conclusion does not follow from your statement in any event :).
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 07:38:27 Guilable would be more along the lines of "Cleats are on tank doing a winter obstacle course. No way can that be incompetent because Nato is too good, so they must be testing something. See, they are working on the tracks later" :)
Seb Member	Tue Oct 03 08:00:38 jergul: "And 1980s US recruitment videos meant that you can indeed be the best that you can be by signing a form." This is rather different from implying you intend to seize Odessa and distribute it to the troops.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 03 08:04:12 Nope, exact same thing. Vague promises of personal growth are the same thing as land parcel allotments in conquered enemy territory.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 03 08:16:59 Sorry Rugian. I see my mistake now.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 08:24:18 It is exactly as relevant you silly people. Russia does not express its security goals through local recruitment videos produced in Simferopol. You think the war is about territory. Well, perhaps it is for Ukraine. It has clearly expressed its territorial ambitions (that include belgorod and regime change if we want to listen to what regional voices say). For Russia, the war is about killing Ukrainian combatants. But feel free to keep on getting it wrong. Why break a 20 year running streak?
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 08:27:12 Listen to what you are implying btw. Territorial ambitions is somehow worse than wanting to kill a million Ukrainian combatants?
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 08:42:36 I sort of get it btw. If indeed the main Russian ambition is to kill Ukrainian servicemembers for as long as it takes, then there is little we can do about that except watch the trainwreck play out. Better then to pretend that it is about something else and set your idea of the Russian goal so high that you can always maintain Russia is losing. It is important to feel good about ourselves after all. Yay team. We are winning. Sigh.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 09:04:46 https://press.armywarcollege.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3240&context=parameters TL:DR Concription is smert.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 09:05:09 http://pre...rticle=3240&context=parameters
murder Member	Tue Oct 03 12:36:28 If all the Ukrainians are killed, I propose that we give Ukraine to the Germans. They've long wanted to expand to the east.
murder Member	Tue Oct 03 12:36:57 They can call it East Germany.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 03 12:44:37 Not all. Just a million. Give or take. As for giving it to Germany. Ukraine remains its own deterrent. Sure you could take it, but then you would have it.
LazyCommunist Member	Tue Oct 03 23:06:58 Once we have reestablished the empire we can go full communism again. That's why all leftists should support expansionist Russia. http://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1709265619189735708 Russian appointed governor of occupied Zaporizhzia region Yevgeny Balitsky said that Russia should return the Baltic states under Russian control. Balitsky doesn't believe in diplomacy, only in Russian weapons.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 04 01:26:29 LC Russians do not really have a founding father fetish. Your american citizenship is shining through a bit :).
jergul large member	Thu Oct 05 05:27:16 Russia has finished setting up 9 reserve regiments. This matters as it completes the transition to a pseudo-mobilized military. Mobilization assumes a steady flow of conscript replacements that have been freshly trained in the MOS (military occupational specialty) they have been assigned. The problem in Ukraine is that there is no consistent flow of replacements as conscripts are under no obligation to sign contracts. Russia has resolved this with replacement regiments. Contracted soldiers are sent to replacement regiments to update MOS training before being sent to units requiring replacements and new contract soldiers taking their place in the replacement regiment giving permanent throughput. Another indication Russia is setting up to play a long game.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 05 11:30:13 So today russia blew up a funeral and a hospital, killing in the ballpark of 60 civilians. Animals.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 05 11:32:40 The good news is that we blasted assads military graduation and killed a whole bunch of putins cronies.
obaminated Member	Thu Oct 05 11:43:57 Um.. yeah.. Russia has to set up for a long game. Can you imagine the national humiliation for Russia to withdraw forces from Ukraine and admit its invasion was an utterly failure? That won't happen. Just like Ukraine surrendering won't happen because Ukraine already faced imminent defeat and refused to give in. Can Russias economy last a long war? Probably not. Can the west collectively prop up Ukraine for a long war? Undeniably yes. Russias only hope to win this war is to convince the West to stop funding Ukraine and that simply won't happen. The war will end with both Russia and Ukraine in ruins. The difference will be post war with Ukraine receiving aid from the world and Russias only income coming from its sanctioned oil which is already bringing in something like 30% less revenue this year than it did the year previous.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 05 12:33:44 Sammy Wanna bet it was a military memorial service at a cafe with social media announcements giving venue and time?
jergul large member	Thu Oct 05 12:34:59 Obam Russia is hoping 1 million dead Ukrainian combatants will defacto demilitarize Ukraine for a generation.
LazyCommunist Member	Fri Oct 06 10:45:00 It is what it is my friends, sometimes shit just happens, no need to get angry http://www...plane-crash-theory-2023-10-06/ MOSCOW, Oct 6 (Reuters) - Russian patriotic bloggers on Friday poured scorn on President Vladimir Putin's intimation that mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin's plane was blown up with hand grenades while those on board were high on cocaine and alcohol. The private Embraer jet on which Prigozhin was travelling to St Petersburg crashed north of Moscow killing all 10 people on board on Aug. 23, including Dmitry Utkin, co-founder of the mercenary Wagner group, four bodyguards and a crew of three. Putin said on Thursday fragments of hand grenades were found in the bodies of the dead and that investigators had ruled out any external impact on the plane such as a missile. However Putin said investigators had been wrong not to have carried out alcohol and drug blood tests, given that five kilograms of cocaine had been found by the Federal Security Service at Wagner premises in St Petersburg earlier this year. Wagner communications channels were silent, but some supporters and patriotic bloggers expressed disbelief. "So a short summary: the most combat-ready unit in the history of modern Russia was commanded by alcoholics and junkies who, being professional military men, did not know how to handle hand grenades?" said the Children of the Arbat pro-war Telegram channel. Prigozhin, who banned his men from using alcohol and drugs on pain of severe punishment, died two months after leading a brief mutiny against Russia's defence establishment that posed the biggest challenge to Putin's rule since the former KGB spy came to power in 1999. 'LAUGHABLE' EXPLANATION Western diplomats say Putin ordered the killing of Prigozhin after the humiliation of the mutiny. The Kremlin has dismissed that unsubstantiated allegation as a lie and said the official investigation has not yet been completed. "Two heroes of great Russia died in this plane crash, just in case someone forgot, and not druggies," said the Southern Front Telegram channel. "The version about a self-detonation is laughable and a farce." One Telegram channel which calls itself CHVK posted a sarcastic montage of Prigozhin's own voice saying: "Well of course, we sniffed a load of coke and then threw some grenades about on the plane." The Grey Zone Telegram channel, which has been unofficially associated with Wagner and has almost 600,000 subscribers, carried a post from a war blogger who said the cocaine that Putin referred to was in fact bundles of washing powder made to look like drugs which state TV had falsely described. The FSB later returned the bundles of washing powder to Wagner, the post said. Vladimir Pastukhov, a political analyst, said he believed Putin did not expect people to believe the version of events he had hinted at, but was signalling that Prigozhin and his associates had been "executed by the book" for their mutiny. "The very choice of the method of execution is not accidental but deeply symbolic. The main victims of the mutiny were military pilots shot down by Wagner's air defence forces. And that is why Prigozhin himself did not just die, but became a 'downed pilot'," Pastukhov wrote on Telegram. "By putting forward a version of their deaths that is obviously absurd and demonstratively humiliating for the dead Wagnerites and which it is impossible to believe, Putin actually wants no one to believe it. (But) he needs society to understand the hint unambiguously: this is how everyone (who betrays us) will be dealt with."
murder Member	Fri Oct 06 10:48:59 "Russia is hoping 1 million dead Ukrainian combatants will defacto demilitarize Ukraine for a generation." How would 1 million dead Ukrainian combatants stop NATO from putting bases on Russia's border?
jergul large member	Fri Oct 06 11:08:54 Murder Why would nato bases on Russia's border (wherever that might be) matter at that point? I think the Russian goal is to literally pacify Ukraine for a generation and to opportunistically grab some more land eventually.
murder Member	Fri Oct 06 11:48:54 Because Russia is afraid of being invaded by NATO. It's the whole reason for their objection to NATO creeping eastward.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 06 12:22:27 Murder Afraid of having a nationalist Ukraine with territorial ambitions and a trigger on article 5. A pacifist Ukraine is about as big a deal as Finland (so not at all).
murder Member	Fri Oct 06 17:25:12 Oh Ukraine is the expansionist state?
jergul large member	Fri Oct 06 20:24:49 Don't be dense. Ukraine had (and has) ambitions of regaining donbas and Crimea.
obaminated Member	Fri Oct 06 20:33:24 Killing prigo after publicly reassuring him that all was forgiven was a mistake for putin. It showed he simply can't be trusted and it showed how weak he actually is. He had to make peace with some pissant mercenary leader and then stab him in the back rather than simply arrest and hold him on trial for treason.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 06 21:10:22 Obam Mutual trust levels were already at zero, so it hardly makes any difference. Your narrative is kind of contradictionary. The narrative I find credible is that intelligence assets in the Russian aero-space forces planted a bomb inside the aircraft. You see, there were some casualties in the coup attempt. Wagner shot down 4 aero-space forces aircraft. I do not think Putin signed off on it because I do not think he he has total control of the State apparatus. You seem to think Putin is weak (had to kill prigo) and yet so very strong - with full direct and personal control over all aspects of the Russian State. Omnipotent in fact. So, work a bit on your messaging for consistency reasons. The nudge, nudge, wink, wink stuff is just Putin playing to his base. Lots of Russians are happy prigo was killed.
obaminated Member	Fri Oct 06 21:31:36 No. I believe putin is weak because he had to kill priggo after making peace, rather than arresting him and holding him on trial. Stabbing someone in the back is not someone in a strong position has to do, especially when doing so completely destroys your credibility as it does here. No one has any reason to believe Putin. He will say whatever he has to say and go back on his word at the soonest opportunity.
jergul large member	Fri Oct 06 21:53:35 Obam "Prigozhin allegedly made personal efforts to establish contact with the presidential administration on the afternoon of 24 June 2023, including reaching out to Putin himself, who refused to speak with him. Final negotiations were reportedly conducted by Anton Vaino, the chief of staff, Nikolai Patrushev, the secretary of the Security Council, and Boris Gryzlov, the Russian ambassador to Belarus.[129] Belarusian president Alexander Lukashenko reportedly spoke with Prigozhin upon Putin's request,[130] acting as a mediator to broker a settlement. Charges were dropped and Wagner ceased its march on Moscow.[124] As part of the agreement, Prigozhin moved to Belarus and Wagner troops were slated to return to Ukraine, but those plans were cancelled in the wake of Wagner's refusal to sign military contracts.[131][132][133][134] Despite his charges being dropped, Prigozhin remained under investigation for treason" Wiki. I see no "making peace" Prigo was allowed to flee to Belarus (which he could do anyway seeing as he controlled a small army). What I mostly see is hubris. Prigo thought he was untouchable despite having numerous powerful enemies. The only thing those enemies needed to know is that there would be no repercussions for assasinating him. My best bet would be security connected to Russian aero-space forces because Wagner shot down 4 aircraft and killed more than 20 crew. Mutual trust levels are at zero regardless, so your point (if any) is moot. I think Russia has a plan to deal with that. What is your plan if Russia refuses to reach a ceasefire or peace agreement (it will not refuse to negotiate)? Just let the war continue as best Ukraine and Russia are able?
murder Member	Sat Oct 07 10:55:04 "Don't be dense. Ukraine had (and has) ambitions of regaining donbas and Crimea." Oh ... you mean their own territory.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 07 10:58:45 Well indeed. Ukraine's equivalent of UN mandated 1949 borders.
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