Utopia Talk / Politics / Gaza: quid ut timerent meriti essent

Rugian Member	Tue Oct 24 07:38:24 "The gates [of Gaza] were closed and every preparation had been made to repel an assault; the townsmen were quite conscious of the punishment they deserved, and any formal declaration of war was, therefore, unnecessary. Scipio made this the subject of his address to his soldiers. "The [Gazans]," he said, "by closing their gates have shown how well they deserve the punishment which they fear...The time has come for you to avenge the atrocious massacre of your fellow-soldiers and the treachery meditated against yourselves had you been carried there in your flight. You will make it clear for all time by this awful example that no one must ever consider an [Israeli] citizen or an [Israeli] soldier a fit subject for ill-treatment, whatever his condition may be."" Part 1 of 2... Link to previous: http://uto...hread=92264&time=1698138097515
murder Member	Tue Oct 24 07:45:38 "For Israel, it boils down to either managing a nuisance problem or facing true threats. Again, from a realist perspective." jergul: Leave it to you to refer to the massacre of 1400 people as a nuisance, and choosing to live with the neighbor who vows to eliminate the rest of you a "realist perspective".
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 07:56:03 Nim: What is the impediment of the Suni Shia split to the scenario where a displaced Gazan population in Sinsi hosting Hamas creates a twin security threat to Egypt? Hamas has no problem working with Iran. Hamas has no impediment working with the insurgents already in Sinai. Iran, through Hamas, and Hamas's relationship to the Sinai rebels (if they don't outright absorb them over time) will have a stick to hold over Egypt and a proxy that can strike at Suez, Gulf Aqaba, and Israel, as well as further insurgency against the Egyptian govt if the Egyptian govt gets in the way. I put it to you that there is no problem. Iran doesn't need to directly deal with the Sinai rebel groups. It just needs to continue to work with Hamas. And whatever Israel does, enough Hamas folks will survive to rebuild it in exile because nobody is going to be adequately policing the refugee camps. Refugee camps are often some of the most insecure places in the world, always under policed, and often home to organised criminal and terrorist groups as a result. Rugian: They already *have* land, Gaza and the West Bank. The issue isn't the land, the issue is Israel wants to take that land, and that is presently the root cause of the problem. There's no basis for Europe "taking" the Palestinians. They don't want to live here, they don't want to integrate to our culture. They want a viable state in their own land. If we are going to solve this problem by population transfers to Europe, which I stress - no, we aren't - it would bebetter we move the Israelis there. Better chance of cultural integration. Many Israelis are choosing to come here anyway. And while Hamas may want to genocide Israel, that's no basis for Israel to annex the territory the way it has. It would have stronger grounds to justify all of this war in the aid of security by creating a buffer zone if it didn't actively subsidise putting Israeli civilians into close proximity of the Palestinians in the West Bank. It's obviously a colonial policy; and I don't see why we should be underwriting a colonial policy or creating a geopolitical threat to Europe in Egypt just so Israel can have the west bank and Gaza to itself. I'm all for destroying Hamas, but that can only be achieved in a two state or one state solution. The latter means an end to Israel, so Israel better figure out how to do the former, or live with the status quo, which means boots on the ground occupation. UK policy is a two state solution is the only route to peace and security. Support for Hamas being eliminated is in line with that. Population transfers is not in like with that, contrary to our values in principle, and in this case is a threat to the UK. So we should not support that, we should oppose it and encourage Israel to destroy Hamas without engaging in ethic cleansing. No blank cheques, especially not from the UK when Israel is led by a man who only a few years ago publicly celebrated terrorist attacks by the Stern Gang on the UK.
Rugian Member	Tue Oct 24 07:58:01 I've been thinking lately about how different the left's reaction to this has been compared to ISIS. With ISIS there was zero ambiguity. When those Sunni extremists began the unspeakable butchery of their "enemies," the West did not equivocate or call for restraint. ISIS was an evil that needed to be wiped out, end of story. But here we are now, with another Sunni extremist group butchering innocent people, and all of a sudden we're getting both-sides waffling from the left. I wonder what variable caused that change in behavior? Is it the fact that this time the victims were Jews? Hmm. And yes, the Gazans at large are responsible, they're the ones that voted in Hamas in the first place. They have enabled evil and deserve punishment.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 08:00:09 Murder Nimi has already said that killing 1400 people "aint doing shit". My argument is that such things do not represent an escalation, but remain in the sphere of nuisance attacks Israel and Iran engage in covertly or through entirely predictable effects of sponsoring unruly proxies. I suppose you could compare it to Shabra and Shatila if you like. All cases were the result of Israeli unresponsiveness. The two first fully investigated. The failings that allowed the hamas operation to succeed beyond any reasonable expectation yet to be internalized in Israel. But same barrel of fish. For the record, the Israeli tally on killed Palestinians is now more than 3 times the number of dead Hamas caused. Nuisance is jutapoxed against actual existential dangers to the State of Israel. Some can emerge. Depends entirely on how well Israel handles its ongoing operation. The realist perspective is an attempt to view the world as it is. It tries to remove moralistic prisms. In this case, genocide is neither good or bad, but has to be gauged against utility. Will Israel be under more or less existential threats if it performs genocide on the Gazan population? I think chances are high that existential threats over the medium term increase dramatically as a conscequence of genocide. So Israel should probably not do that.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 08:00:12 Murder: Re moving them to the west bank of the Nile - again the last thing anyone in Europe wants is Egypt being an ungoverned space. If Israel tries to fight a war with Egypt, Europe is going to make it very difficult for Israel and will try to prop up the Egyptian regime. Meanwhile, it's detente with the Arab states will break down completely. That isn't going to help it at all.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 08:01:29 Rugian: "When those Sunni extremists began the unspeakable butchery of their "enemies," the West did not equivocate or call for restraint. ISIS was an evil that needed to be wiped out, end of story." We didn't say the solution to ISIS was to depopulate Syria and Iraq either. We recognised the distinction between civil populations and terror groups - which is what we are doing here. Rather it is you that is out of line with historical precedent.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 08:02:56 Ruggy The Palestinian people are the primary victims of Hamas. Israel has a duty as an occupier to provide security to Gazans.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:03:07 Seb I already addressed those questions. If you have follow up questions or find anything unclear that you want me to address, I suggest you quote the specifics and ask your good faith question, I am not going address your strawmen.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:06:14 "Seb Member Tue Oct 24 08:00:12 Murder: Re moving them to the west bank of the Nile - again the last thing anyone in Europe wants is Egypt being an ungoverned space." You are so easily baited... then you start confusing who said what and think obaminated, rugian and Nimatzo are all saying the same thing. But who am I to tell you how to waste your afternoon shit break. I am reminded that at some point you took The Children seriously and tried to explain things for him.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 08:11:23 Rugian "they're the ones that voted in Hamas in the first place. " Less than 20% and possibly as low as 7% of those alive now voted for Hamas. Over half are children. Arguing it's ok to murder 6 year olds now because they are responsible for Hamas getting power 15 years ago shows you are no different than Hamas, justifying murdering six year old Israelis for ethnic cleansing in the 1940s. Hell even Hamas has the decency to realise how wrong it is and lie about it rather than try to defend it.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 08:13:11 Nim: No you haven't. You've just issued with deranged dribble where you first say "losing Hamas" would be bad for Iran and repeated back the original premise that actually Hamas would be able to work well with the Sinai groups. You have vaguely suggested it would be politically bad for Iran to be seen to work with the Sinai rebels, but I've pointed out that they wouldn't be. They'd be working with Hamas which they have been doing for decades with no problem.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 08:15:47 Nim: "You are so easily baited... then you start confusing who said what and think obaminated, rugian and Nimatzo are all saying the same thing." You see where I said in my post "Murder:' I'm responding to: "murder Member Tue Oct 24 07:32:49 "Egypt can't currently control Sinai and will be less able to do so when there's a huge refugee population there." Then maybe move the Gazans to the west bank ... of the Nile." Which one of us is confused about who is saying what again? Still microdosing?
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 08:23:12 He is definitely still microdosing. The moodswings are a dead givaway :).
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:26:27 Seb You see how combativly autistic you are? You are trying to create an argument, because you don't understand murder is perhaps the biggest producer of insanity fueled troll bait on this forum. How much time did you waste explaining to murder that nuclear war is bad in the Ukraine threads? I'm sorry I didn't provide you with an exhaustive list of posters who are troll baiting you into writing walls of drivel arguing for or against the absurd. I should have known.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:32:15 Seb "Still microdosing?" I could be high as a kite and I would still run laps around you. You have trouble reading and comprehending at a degree where you can sift of the drivel and obvious troll bait and respond to the salient points. Failing these basic things of analyzing text you create an army of strawmen to make up for your incompetence. It's not a hallmark of intelligence when you make these posts responding to each and every post that people have made in the hours you were away from the forum. It always give me a chuckle: Seb vs the internet et. al. But really, who am I to tell you how to waste your life.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 08:36:00 Thank you for the compliments Nimi! Imitation is the highest form etc. You truly do follow my every word. Quite literally. Don't get your own material. Mine is much better, even in diluted form :).
murder Member	Tue Oct 24 08:45:35 "Less than 20% and possibly as low as 7% of those alive now voted for Hamas. Over half are children." Even less spend any energy on removing Hamas from power.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:46:39 All these things you are taking credit for, are things I have said to you in past conversation. You are really growing into the demented uncle of the forums.. Heart breaking.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 08:48:18 In the next episode of Jergul's dementia, he will claim he invented the color purple, the turn signal and the phrase "didn't I tell you"
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 08:54:26 You see? Your own material sucks. You had some of your own stuff with seb too ("ahaha, I was not being a moron. I was just trolling you lol pwnd") Just stick with imitation. It works way better :).
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 24 09:03:18 jergul You need to use more smiley face, so everyone can clearly see and understand you are not at all triggered or raging, as you respond to every post I make and others make at me. Nobody should make fun of the melt down you are clearly having.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 09:29:33 "Less than 20% and possibly as low as 7% of those alive now voted for Hamas. Over half are children." Recent public opinion surveys say approximately 50% of gazans support hamas.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 09:33:22 I wonder what the survey for nagasaki and dresden would have been.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 10:23:51 Every day 100s of rockets ate fired from gaza at israeli civilians. You dont see seb crying "collective punishment!!" for them though. Wierd.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 10:29:35 Nim: 1. Complains I've confused him with murder. 2. Realises he's confused himself, changes claim to one that he thinks it's stupid to engage with Murder. Murder: "Even less spend any energy on removing Hamas from power" Hamas fought a war against its opposition in Gaza. There might be opportunity for an uprising against them again. There's the small issue of who is going to supply these rebels with weapons though. Sam: "Recent public opinion surveys say approximately 50% of gazans support hamas." Yes, and 99% of Iraqis supported Saddam Hussein. (50% of gazans = over 100% of adults.)
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 10:32:03 Sam: "You dont see seb crying "collective punishment!!" for them though." Err, yes you do. I've repeatedly said Hamas needs to be destroyed. Why do you think that is? Because I don't like groups with names beginning with H? No, because of they are brutal terrorists who have set themselves the goal of ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 11:07:25 Holy shit a reasonable post from seb! But then theres this bit of second grade dunce math: "(50% of gazans = over 100% of adults.)" Obviously that poll was refering to 50% of those polled, adults or young adults, like all political polls ever. Imagine living in 2023 and not knowing how polling works.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 11:19:20 Sam: "Obviously that poll was refering to 50% of those polled, adults or young adults, like all political polls ever." https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah "While the majority of Gazans (65%) did think it likely that there would be “a large military conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza” this year, a similar percentage (62%) supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel. Moreover, half (50%) agreed with the following proposal: “Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction, and instead accept a permanent two-state solution based on the 1967 borders.” Moreover, across the region, Hamas has lost popularity over time among many Arab publics. This decline in popularity may have been one of the motivating factors behind the group’s decision to attack. In fact, Gazan frustration with Hamas governance is clear; most Gazans expressed a preference for PA administration and security officials over Hamas—the majority of Gazans (70%) supported a proposal of the PA sending “officials and security officers to Gaza to take over the administration there, with Hamas giving up separate armed units,” including 47% who strongly agreed. Nor is this a new view—this proposal has had majority support in Gaza since first polled by The Washington Institute in 2014." So... you say this poll that a majority supports hamas - can you provide a source for that? Personally, I would take all the polls with a pinch of salt - if you understand how polling works (when it does work). Effective polling would mean having a good understanding of the demographic and political breakdown within the Gazan strip, having robust ways of conducting the poll by e.g. telphone etc. where you could validate that the people you were talking to fit the demographic criteria you wanted for a well weighted poll, and supported by moderation with focus groups to correct any imbalances in sampling. I mean, you can't even get into Gaza without getting permission from Israel, and it is administered by Hamas which aren't really tolerant of western experts. I think it is pretty obvious that polling in Gaza, particularly around support for Hamas is not credible either way. It looks to me like you are just cherry picking.
Allahuakbar Member	Tue Oct 24 11:20:16 This video will make you support Palestine http://twi...?t=La6ROzFLnRYnqIv3yZOZLg&s=19
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 11:22:28 I suspect you are quoting a poll from 2021 after the last mini war that showed a surge for generic support for Hamas *after* Israel had bombed the shit out of it. Rally round the flag effect. The long term trends in polling though seem to indicate that Hamas and its policy and actions towards Israel do not have support of the Gazan population. Not that this matters as Hamas has all the guns and money, and Netenyahu and Likud have historically worked to ensure that thinking that Hamas could be used to to split the Palestinian leadership. Talk about riding a tiger.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 11:40:11 Or perhaps you are taking the result from this poll which simply says: "What is you opinion of Hamas" which is in the round. So, you'd have 58% of Gazans saying (in July) that they have a positive opinion of Hamas, while at the same time 50% of Gazans saying that they think Hamas should stop calling for Israel's destruction and Normalise relationship with Israel, and 62% saying that Hamas has not improved their lives, 56% saying Hamas should focus on improvements to daily lives, not big resistance operations; 50% saying the PA should take over Gaza, and 62% wanting Hamas to maintain a cease fire. It is difficult to translate a 58% response of a 500 person survey conducted at arms length in July which ALSO shows even stronger support for continued ceasefire, preference for the secular PA, strong support for recognition of Israel as indicating some kind of endorsement for October 7th. Quite the opposite: it suggests that October 7th is diametrically the opposite of what most polled people in Gaza wanted and may well hugely negatively impact any positive opinions they might have on Hamas.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 11:42:38 I'm sure support for hamas does fluctuate by 10-20% of the adult population or so dwpending on what is going on. Bottom line... a small majority or a large minority of gazan adults support hamas at any given time.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 11:56:14 Sam: Has a favourable opinion isn't quite the same thing as support. I have a broadly favourable opinion towards the Green party. I do not support them. Equally the same data shows that a larger majority of the Gazan population: 1. opposes military action against Israel (let alone wanton terrorism) 2. supports peace 3. Would prefer the PA to be in charge You raised this "Gazan's support Hamas" to try and insinuate the population of Gaza endorses Hamas's terrorist attacks on Israel. That's simply not a claim that can be supported with this data.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 12:03:33 Remember, you were speaking in support of Rugian's point that sought to establish Gazas civilian populations responsibility for the attack because they voted for Hamas (by an overwhelming majority, no, most did not, half were not alive, 25% were not of voting age, and many more subsequently dead). You sought to negate that refutation by saying a majority support Hamas. It is clear that they do not support Hamas in this respect at all. They had a favourable opinion of Hamas BEFORE the attacks while also strongly opposing anything like the attacks, and displaying a preference for different government. Bottom line: 1. A majority of Gazans do not want Hamas in charge 2. The vast majority did not get a say about Hamas being in charge. 3. There was armed resistance against Hamas, but they were not provided with support at the time. 4. Holding the Gazan population responsible for the crimes as a justification for collective punishment is the same logic Hamas uses to justify attacks on Israeli civilians. It is the logic of terrorists.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 12:17:41 I agree that a sizeable chunk of gazas adult population are innocent... around 60%. This number is not nearly large enough to not consider hamas a state actor. Thus treat them the same as any dishonorable enemy. Dont target their civilians, but don't care if they get in the way. Israel with its roof knocking and allowing in of supplies is thus being more restrained and nicer than required by the rules of war. We were muuch less restrained to the Japanese and they fought with more honor than does hamas.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 12:26:00 http://x.com/BNONews/status/1716865383238438930?s=20 More of your migrants in action seb.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 12:32:16 Nimi I reserve my smileys for my "special" friend in this forum :). Sammy Half of Gaza's population are kids. Israel has a duty to protect them. Secondly, Israel is responsible for security in Gaza. It allowed Hamas to set up camp and take over. If a security breakdown in Gaza followed from Israeli lapses in security there, then that is on Israel. Basically, Israel knowingly allowed Hamas to take over Gaza and is now crying that that went sideways. Israel always was responsible for Gazan security and Gazans remain the primary victim of Hamas directly and indirectly (Israel is bombing them to kill hamas). So yah, Israel has to get rid of hamas and take its security responsibilities for Gazans seriously so that no similar organization rise from the ashes. Hamas is not a state actor. It is an terrorist organization operating in occupied territory. The only state actor is the occupying power Israel.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 12:49:15 Sam: "I agree that a sizeable chunk of gazas adult population are innocent... around 60%" How do you come to that figure? "This number is not nearly large enough to not consider hamas a state actor" Double negative here, but I parse this to mean "Hamas can be considered a state actor" - this sounds like having your cake and eating it. On the one hand, you don't recognise Gaza as a sovereign state when it comes to affording its population any protections, freedoms or rights; but on the other hand you want to - in some hand-wavey way - say that because Hamas is a state actor that there is a basis for attacking the civil population. But nothing that is being asked of Israel with respect to Gaza is in conflict with the idea of treating Gaza and its population as a state. The ask is for the normal rules of war to apply which includes: 1. requirement for proportionality and to minimise civilian casualties 2. Refrain from collective punishment and direct targeting of civilians etc. etc. 3. No population transfers, annexation of territory etc. "Thus treat them the same as any dishonorable enemy" You've entirely made this up though - there is no such thing as honorable and dishonorable enemies in terms of the rules of war. "and allowing in of supplies" Something Israel has only allowed under strong western pressure, after first decrying the entire population as animals and turning of power, water and food suppliers. "We were muuch less restrained to the Japanese and they fought with more honor than does hamas." Are you fucking kidding? Japan raped, executed children, enslaved, tortured and executed prisoners, conducted medical experiments on prisoners. And targeting of axis civilians was - AT THE TIME - always justified in terms of the direct material support to war industries. Even the choice of targets for the nuclear weapons required the target cities to have key military facilities to justify their targeting. It is highly revisionist to suggest that attacks on the civilian population were in some way punitive rather than considered a military justified necessity. Not to mention dishonouring the leaders of the Allies and the soldiers that fought fascism by suggesting they wantonly targeted civilians without need or cause. Hamas's military capabilities do not come from any effort of the civil population of Gaza so no such justification is possible: civilian casualties need to be proportional to military gains.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 16:18:27 "Japan raped, executed children, enslaved, tortured and executed prisoners, conducted medical experiments on prisoners." Indeed they did. So did hamas. At least the japanese had the dignity to try stand up fights however, didnt hide behind their civilians, and accepted defeat when beaten. If it makes you feel better i will call the japanese just marginally more honorable than hamas. "there is no such thing as honorable and dishonorable enemies in terms of the rules of war." Of course there is. You can sumarily execute all sorts of dishonorable enemies. Spies, sabatuers, etc. If they dont follow the rules of war, they dont need to be afforded the rules of war. This has been the standard under which western armies have fought forever. "Hamas's military capabilities do not come from any effort of the civil population of Gaza" No, but just as bad they are used as shields for said military capabilities. Its completely OK to put a jdam through a house full of palestinian lids to get to the hamas commander hiding in the basement.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 16:21:06 "Half of Gaza's population are kids. Israel has a duty to protect them." False. Israel merely should not target them if there is no military nearby.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 16:21:38 Good quote: Why did the Nazis try to conceal their crimes, while Hamas broadcast theirs? The Nazis knew the Western world would be aghast. Hamas knew the Arab and Muslim worlds would applaud.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 16:24:53 Sam: "You can sumarily execute all sorts of dishonorable enemies. Spies, sabatuers, etc" Those are enemy combatants. You are extending this concept to say that you think you can kill civilian non combatants because Hamas is dishonorable. There's no concept at all in the rules of war that would strip civilians of their rights and protections due to war crimes being committed by combatants. That's something you made up.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 16:25:43 "Its completely OK to put a jdam through a house full of palestinian lids to get to the hamas commander hiding in the basement." No, it's not.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 24 16:34:16 Sam: "Hamas knew the Arab and Muslim worlds would applaud." Hamas hasn't broadcast their crimes. Quite the opposite - their spokesman on Arab TV in Arabic strenuously denies they targeted children. The evidence to the contrary is private communications between militants Israel have intercepted and broadcast. Their spokesman is obviously lying, but so are you when you say Hamas is broadcasting their crimes because the Arab world will applaud. In fact they are strenuously denying their crimes and trying to pretend they acted only as "honourable" combatants because they know that the majority of the Arab world would absolutely turn against them if it believed they were acting like Daesh. They want to terrorise the Israelis with brutality, but get the kudos of honourable resistance fighters from the Arab Street. You are just once again trying to establish broad complicity of all Arabs and Muslims with Hamas. Much as Hamas wants to do that with Israelis. And this is of course very similar to Hamas: like them you are seeking to portray dishonourable conduct as honourable.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 16:35:09 Sammy Collateral damage happens during combat operations. That is indisputable. There are proportional criteria however. So there has to be a higher purpose to combat operations. Like say defeating Hamas desively and ensuring no successor organization can take its place. Israel's responsibilities rotate around its duties as an occupying power (Gaza is internationally recognized as occupied regardless of the wierd way Israel chose to occupy it). It is responsible for security in Gaza and failed miserably in that regard. So now it needs to clean up its mess though combat operations, then maintain security in Gaza. This is both a realist argument and a normative moral argument. Those two often overlap as moral arguments are "well that sucked, lets make sure it does not happen again. I guess we have to stop doing it so that others stop doing it too" is actually a realist argument too. What works, works. Occupying Gaza under martial law until a political settlement with reasonable Palestinians is the only thing that can work. Anything else is a rinse-repeat of things that do not work that Israel has tried before. I am not saying this has to happen now. Israel can rinse-repeat for the next 2000 years if it wants to. With predictable incidents occuring with regular intervals. But at some point, Israel should step up to its responsibilities as those are ultimately the only way out of the impasse that does not involve at least a limited Israeli diaspora to the West. What I think will happen is that Hamas will meek out 2 hostages every couple of days to delay combat operations until all sense of urgency is lost and the momentum for a ground invasion is lost. Then things will go back to the way they were. Most likely with almost all cross border activity passing through Egypt.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 17:04:31 "Hamas hasn't broadcast their crimes." You were obviously asleep on days 1 and 2. Or have short term memory problems. I know we are all getting older but i peg you at about 45... a little early for senility... "No, it's not." Lol. Of course it is. Just like it was ok to burn down an entire german city to get a ball bearing plant and 2 trains. Don't fuck with us. We'll nuke your cities and then make memes about it.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 17:05:34 "There are proportional criteria however." Indeed. And after what hamas did, those criteria are very relaxed.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 17:09:42 I will say your russian friends are fighting with a bit more honor than the palestinians are. Thus ukraine is not justified in doing to russian cities what israel is going to do to palestine.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 17:11:48 Vengance is not a proportional criteria. You really should pay attention to a realist perspective. Israel getting this wrong can worsen its security situation dramatically. Do you really want the Muslim world crowdfunding whatever Hamas or its successor is in some months time? Drones are not actually that expensive and components are easy to smuggle past customs that sympathise with you.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 17:14:58 Honour is also not a proportionate criteria. Proportionality is measured by results. A Sherman could crush 2000 babies to reach Hitler and it would totally be worth it if that ended to war.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 24 17:28:40 In this case, I realize 50k civilians might die if Israel invades and occupies Gaza. Worth it if Israel uses the opportunity to permanently protect Gazans from hamas or hamas type successors. Otherwise, the deaths are disproportionately meaningless and will make matters worse for Israel later.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 24 23:44:00 "Vengance is not a proportional criteria." Yes it is, in that punishment deters a potential actor from acting.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 25 00:40:56 Arguable in some cases, but not this case. Hamas or Hamas' successor will feed off the resentment vengance generated to continue as before.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 01:55:39 Sam: "You were obviously asleep on days 1 and 2. Or have short term memory problems. I know we are all getting older but i peg you at about 45... a little early for senility..." Ok, show me evidence of Hamas explicitly claiming to have killed civilians and children that they *published* themselves. Everything I've seen that Hamas has put out officially or through spokesman takes pains to (falsely, I'd point out) claim they only attacked military targets or people attacking them. "Just like it was ok to burn down an entire german city to get a ball bearing plant and 2 trains" Proportionality. A ball bearing plant is contributing directly and daily to industrial production of aircraft that is being used daily to attack the UK. There's an urgent need to destroy it to prevent further attacks. Destroying the plant saves lives, and the inaccuracy of bombs makes that hard to achieve in any other way. Much harder to claim that a single man cowering in a cellar poses an imminent threat to Israel and that only by bombing him there and then and killing a bunch of children can Israeli lives be saved. If you can reasonably make that claim, you are on solid grounds. But you can't just say "we've decided to kill him, so it doesn't matter how many civilians we kill to do so". "will say your russian friends are fighting with a bit more honor than the palestinians are" Not really. They massacre and torture civilians, rape women etc. Remember when the Russians bombed a theatre with 200 children clearly marked as such because they reckoned there might be Ukrainian soldiers inside, and everyone said it was a shocking warcrimes because it was? You've just said that is honourable conduct.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 02:50:50 Israel needs to decide whether Gaza is a sovereign state to defend against, an occupied territory to administer, or an apartheid ghetto/Bantustan. The pick and mix is a big contribution to the insecurity.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 05:35:30 Sam: "And after what hamas did, those criteria are very relaxed." No, proportionality is about weighing the risks to civilians in a specific action against the military advantage gained. It is not relative to the crimes of the other party. "No, but just as bad they are used as shields for said military capabilities." https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/israel-targeted-killings-case "What is the law regarding civilians serving as a ‘human shield’ for terrorists taking a direct part in the hostilities? Certainly, if they are doing so because they were forced to do so by terrorists, those innocent civilians are not to be seen as taking a direct part in the hostilities. They themselves are victims of terrorism." Note the source please. No, they civilians being used as human shields are not direct combatants and do not lose their protections.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 10:56:41 So apparently now confirmed the invasion delay is so the US can prepare for regional response.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 25 13:34:19 Seb Careful. Tass is also running with that take citing the Washington Journal. Regional response meaning rushing air defence assets with ballistic capability into theater.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 25 13:37:46 Wow, Biden's recent speech mirrors my thought about Gazans as victims, the need to provide security, get rid of hamas and go for a two state solution. The old status quo will no longer work. Not that I think the US will compel Israel to follow such a course. More that it is of interest that advisors see the same way out of the impasse that I do. We do I guess as Seb's views are not terribly different from mine.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 25 13:38:22 You can correct me on that if you like seb. I have more problems agreeing with you than disagreeing :D
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 25 14:15:24 http://ktl...suspect-shouts-free-palestine/ Muslim/leftist breaks into jewish families home, screams "black lives matter free palestine" and attacks them with a knife.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 25 14:23:16 "Ok, show me evidence of Hamas explicitly claiming to have killed civilians and children that they *published* themselves." Wilfully blind. Almost all videos from the terror attacks in the first few days came from hamas social media accounts.
Rugian Member	Wed Oct 25 14:40:36 Even if you grant Seb's premise that Hamas has been vigorously denying that they killed civilians and children, how the hell does that excuse the rest of the Muslim world? Arab media has access to Western news and Twitter. Information of the atrocities is widespread on those mediums. If they're ignoring that and just parroting Muslim talking points instead, then that only goes to prove that they are as anti-Semitic as Hamas is.
Rugian Member	Wed Oct 25 14:54:04 "Turkey's Erdogan says Hamas is not terrorist organisation, cancels trip to Israel By Tuvan Gumrukcu and Huseyin Hayatsever October 25, 202311:37 AM EDTUpdated 4 hours ago "Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, it is a liberation group, 'mujahideen' waging a battle to protect its lands and people," he told lawmakers from his ruling AK Party, using an Arabic word denoting those who fight for their faith. "The perpetrators of the massacre and the destruction taking place in Gaza are those providing unlimited support for Israel," Erdogan said. "Israel's attacks on Gaza, for both itself and those supporting them, amount to murder and mental illness." http://www...orist-organisation-2023-10-25/ These are the people that Seb et al side with.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 25 15:03:07 I would be careful touting that horn too loudly. Israel has killed more civilian and most likely has a worse civilian to militant ratio of those killed.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 15:07:02 Jergul: I think we are pretty much aligned in terms of the only viable long term strategy - path to getting there is up for grabs. Rugian: "How the hell does that excuse the rest of the Muslim world" Excuse them of what exactly? I'm simply pointing out that Sam's quote, which suggests that the majority of ARabs or Muslims revel and rejoice in Hamas's wanton violence against civilians. Rather the opposite: they would be disgusted by it, which is why Hamas lies about it, denies it, and why many Muslims and people in favour of Palestinian independence go into denial about it.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 15:07:54 Kind of like how America was big into denial about warcrimes and prisoner abuse being committed by its troops until photos of it emerged. No, it cannot be, we are the good guys, our cause is just...
Seb Member	Wed Oct 25 15:09:48 Rugian: Well, if we are just going to make shit up, just pretend I found some vile quote from Hitler extolling the murder of Jews and appended "these are the people Rugian supports".
murder Member	Wed Oct 25 17:21:42 It's long past time that the US quit supporting Turkey. Worst ally ever.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 25 23:53:25 "Kind of like how America was big into denial about warcrimes and prisoner abuse being committed by its troops until photos of it emerged." Oh those poor little iraqis got water on them. Waaaaaaa.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 25 23:53:54 "long past time that the US quit supporting Turkey." Correct.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 25 23:57:11 Anyways, back to news. Israel is starting thunder runs. At least 1 just completed. Seems like a logical step up, copying our stunningly rapid conquest of baghdad. Tank raids are badass. Vikings and mongols aint got shit.
Paramount Member	Thu Oct 26 03:38:25 In 2021 Israel suffered 1775 rock attacks, but the world says nothing. http://x.com/spiritofho/status/1716989367296884959
TheChildren Member	Thu Oct 26 05:28:36 da world of lies being xposed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idQbwsvtUo
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 05:43:46 The UN is basically justifying terrorism now: "A furious diplomatic spat between Israel and the United Nations has broken out, with Israeli officials calling for the resignation of Secretary General Antonio Guterres after he said Hamas’ October 7 attacks on the country “did not happen in a vacuum.” At a Security Council meeting, Guterres called for a humanitarian ceasefire on Tuesday amid the deepening crisis in Gaza, and told the Security Council that “clear violations of international humanitarian law” are being witnessed. He called Hamas’ October 7 murder and kidnap rampage “appalling,” and said “nothing can justify the deliberate killing, injuring and kidnapping of civilians, or the launching of rockets against civilian targets.” “It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum,” Guterres said. “The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation. They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished.” “But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people. Excellencies, even war has rules,” he added. His comments angered Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen, who was in the chamber as Guterres spoke. “In what world do you live?” said Cohen. “Definitely, this is not our world.” Writing on social media later, Cohen said that “after the October 7th massacre, there is no place for a balanced approach. Hamas must be erased off the face of the planet!” Israel’s ambassador to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, called on Guterres to resign, saying he had “expressed an understanding for terrorism and murder.” Then, on Wednesday, Erdan said his country will block visas for United Nations officials. It had already rejected an application by the UN Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, Martin Griffiths, Erdan told the Israeli Army Radio channel. “It’s time we teach them a lesson,” added Erdan." http://www...-guterres-gaza-intl/index.html
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 06:05:01 Seb "Excuse them of what exactly? I'm simply pointing out that Sam's quote, which suggests that the majority of ARabs or Muslims revel and rejoice in Hamas's wanton violence against civilians. Rather the opposite: they would be disgusted by it, which is why Hamas lies about it, denies it, and why many Muslims and people in favour of Palestinian independence go into denial about it." This is willful ignorance if so. Outside of Gaza, Hamas has zero control over what the Muslim world sees of this conflict. There is no reason that AL Jazeera for example could easily report on the families butchered, the desert partiers massacred, the wanton violence against civilians. According to you they are not doing that. If so, then they are explicitly complicit in anti-Semitism. "Seb Member Wed Oct 25 15:07:54 Kind of like how America was big into denial about warcrimes and prisoner abuse being committed by its troops until photos of it emerged." We *have* videos and photos of Hamas' crimes. This is not a valid excuse. "Well, if we are just going to make shit up, just pretend I found some vile quote from Hitler extolling the murder of Jews and appended "these are the people Rugian supports"." He is parroting the same anti-Semitic talking points that you are. Hamas was merely reacting to Israel's non-occupation of Gaza and all that.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 26 06:07:07 Ruggy The collective punishment of Palestinians cannot be justified by the Hamas attacks. Israel needs a better end-game plan to justify what is happening to Gazans. The first thing it needs to formulate is what it wants to do. Then it needs to formulate a strategy on how to do that. Then it needs to incorporate humanitarian measures to minimize the civilian toll on what it wants to do. Israel seems to indicate its endgoal is the permanent removal of Hamas and any Hamas' successors. The strategy is through re-establishing control on the ground. Mkay. How about doing that sector by sector, then establishing safe zones in cleared sectors so civilians have somewhere to evacuate to as the long term operation unfolds? Not really rocket science.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 26 06:08:42 Note that a blockade does not play a role. Complicating Hamas defensive efforts by starving Gazan civilians is counter productive.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 26 06:11:10 Seb's thought that Arab peace-keeper can eventually step in and uphold martial law rule in Gaza is valid for if and when serious negotiations with serious Palestinians are in process. The PA has to sign off on any peace keeping force if Israel is to hand off those duties and obligations to an outside force.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 06:30:49 Rugian: He did no such thing as your quote directly shows. Israel is simply trying to justify its colonial expropriation of the West Bank by terrorism from Hamas. "This is willful ignorance if so." Sam claims that Hamas broadcasts to the Arab world its crimes because the Arab world revels in it, all Arabs are terrorist loving would-be-genociders blah blah blah. Why then does Hamas go onto Arab TV, broadcast in Arabic, to an Arab audience and repeatedly deny it is killing Israeli civilians, or mistreating prisoners? It does so because actually no, murdering children is not wildly popular in the Arab world. I don't know what your point is about Al-Jaziera - it doesn't seem logically connected to the point under discussion. "We *have* videos and photos of Hamas' crimes. This is not a valid excuse." Yeah, and when we had videos of American crimes in Guantanamo, we still had people saying "it's a one off, it's not indicative of behaviour at Guantanamo, its staged". Hell, you still have Americans that read also sorts of bullshit into the WTC and we need not even talk of Qanon, or indeed your general inability to recognise Trump's various incompetence, wannabe autocracy and outright crimes. And that was before the era of deep fakes and generative AI. People will continue to disregard evidence in front of them - there will be a lot of Arabs that express support Hamas because they *want* it to be a noble organisation of freedom fighters that only ever kill Israeli soldiers and disregard evidence to the contrary. Again, this demonstrates the point: mascaraing children is sufficiently disgusting and unpopular that some people will simply and irrationally refuse to believe it is happening. "He is parroting the same anti-Semitic talking points that you are. Hamas was merely reacting to Israel's non-occupation of Gaza and all that." I have never said such a thing, which is precisely why I am saying if we can just make shit up, why not go straight to accusing each-other of being paedophiles? Hell why not replace Utopia with a GPT4 clone. If we are not going to be honest about each others position, there is no point. This isn't a political campaign where it makes sense to smear each other to influence voters. We've all been here quite long enough to know each other that such crude bullshit is pointless. It just makes you look like a delusional narcissist that thinks there's a crowd here to play to.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 06:40:59 jergul: "Seb's thought that Arab peace-keeper can eventually step in and uphold martial law rule in Gaza is valid for if and when serious negotiations with serious Palestinians are in process. The PA has to sign off on any peace keeping force if Israel is to hand off those duties and obligations to an outside force." I think it is the only way. We already know Israel can't manage occupation in the long term, that is why they withdrew in the first place. We also know from the poll where everyone cherry-picks the "favourable opinion of Hamas" stat that Gazans appear to prefer the PA as an administration. There's an effective strategy here for Israel, if it wants it. Or it can keep doing the same thing and expecting it have a different result.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 06:43:13 Yes, we are all aware of how wise Israel would be to accept an Arab army in Gaza, as 1948, 1967, and 1973 have all aptly shown. Are you people nuts?
jergul large member	Thu Oct 26 06:50:00 Ruggy Israel does not have to hand off occupation duties and obligations in an area under martial law to peace keepers if it does not want to. If fact, it would have to work quite hard at gaining PAs acceptance for such a thing, then getting Arab states to step up and replace the IDF in Gaza. In any event, the first step is regaining ground control of Gaza in a way that minimizes the civilian toll. I am not sure Israel wants to take that first step at this time. But anything else is counterproductive procrastination.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 06:51:06 "The collective punishment of Palestinians cannot be justified by the Hamas attacks." Given the length and breadth of support the Gazans have for Hamas and their barbarism, yes it absolutely can be justified. "Then it needs to incorporate humanitarian measures to minimize the civilian toll on what it wants to do." Thats one option for going about it. Another option would be the Sri Lankan strategy for putting down Tamil terrorists. You'll note that, unlike the useless prattling of the "humanitarian" West, that strategy was actually effective. This is war after all. You cannot civilize war.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 07:06:48 "jergul large member Thu Oct 26 06:08:42 Note that a blockade does not play a role. Complicating Hamas defensive efforts by starving Gazan civilians is counter productive. This is like saying that economic blockades of Germany in 1943 were counter-productive for convincing the German people to rise up against their Naxi oppressors. No. Just no.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 07:07:40 Jergul What in God's holy name makes you think that the PA is a force for peace in this conflict?
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 07:07:55 Rugian: "Given the length and breadth of support the Gazans have for Hamas and their barbarism, yes it absolutely can be justified." Firstly, no, the support Gazans have for Hamas as far as it relates to crimes against Israel, is low as we have already discussed. Secondly, the Law of Armed Combat, whether you treat this as an internal or external conflict, is completely clear on this point. Collective punishment has no basis in law. Thirdly, the idea that it is ok to kill, starve, main and torture civilians for the crimes of their govt or some other group is the very definition of terrorism. "This is war after all. You cannot civilize war." You can, we have a long history of doing it.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 07:12:29 Rugian: "This is like saying that economic blockades of Germany in 1943 were counter-productive for convincing the German people to rise up against their Naxi oppressors." They were. The purpose of the economic blockades of Germany were to starve it of the resources required to wage war. As has been repeatedly pointed out, Hamas isn't relying on the industry and economy of Gaza to wage war on Israel. If Hamas were relying on a general mobilisation of the population of Gaza, and near 100% of output was going towards war industries - then you might have a point. But it isn't true. A miniscule proportion of the Gazan population are directly or indirectly contributing to Hamas's military capabilities.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 07:34:47 Seb No context needs to be established for Hamas' actions. Murder is murder and nothing whatsoever about the whole Israel-Palestinian conflict has any relevance toeard that fact. His meaning was clear. Hamas may have gone too far in a few places, but Israel essentially brought this upon themselves. Fuck him. West Bank settlements are irrelevant for any discussion of Gaza. That said, those are permanent and are only going to increase in number for as long as the Palestinians refuse to unconditionally surrender and become true partners for peace. Your entire premise for calling the Islamic world civilized I'd that they are willfully ignoring the butchery of children, despite widespread and easily attainable evidence of that happening. Like, yikes dude. *That's* your argument here? And your thesis requires us to ignore the very inconvenient fact that Hamas very clearly *did* want their crimes to be known, as evidenced by the sheer amount of video they shot during the attack. These guys took Go Pros and rifle-mounted cameras with then. What do you think they did that for, to record the local architecture? Don't you dare speak to me about misinformation, Mr. Believes Russia Stole The 2016 Election And Trump Claimed That White Supremacists Were Very Good People. We shouldnt give a shit what Muslims choose to believe in the name of their medieval religion. If they do choose to believe garbage like that then that makes them our enemies and incompatible with Western values. Much as we may want to believe otherwise, Clash of Civilizations is still an aspect of humanity that we need to acknowledge. For God knows how many threads now you have done nothing but criticize Israel's response to seeing 1400 of its citizens butchered and claim that the only way forward is for Israel to effectively capitulate to Palestinian demands. Do I need to pull quotes to demonstrate this?
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 08:08:39 Rugian: "His meaning was clear. Hamas may have gone too far in a few places, but Israel essentially brought this upon themselves." No, that was not his meaning and it could not have been clearer. He is saying that Israel's illegal occupation and Hamas's crimes are two separate issues that both need to be addressed. Israel's angry reactions are because it wants to pretend that its illegal occupation and colonisation is justified by Hamas's terrorism.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 08:11:52 "West Bank settlements are irrelevant for any discussion of Gaza." No they aren't. Because both Gaza and the West Bank are a single entity even if split geographically. And the siege and ban on pumping water from aquifers in Gaza and prevention of fishing predate Hamas control of Gaza in any case, so trying to pretend that Israeli colonialism in Gaza ended in 2005 or is a response to Hamas control is also unfounded.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 08:14:32 "Your entire premise for calling the Islamic world civilized I'd that they are willfully ignoring the butchery of children, despite widespread and easily attainable evidence of that happening. Like, yikes dude. *That's* your argument here?" You really need to work on your comprehension.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 08:18:56 Seb Nimatzo really has a point that you are a chronic gaslighter and liar. The proof is in this very fucking thread.
jergul large member	Thu Oct 26 09:23:51 Ruggy Sadly, there are too many downside for Israel to follow your suggested path. It has to fight a civilized war if it wants to avoid a mini diaspora in the future. There are actually not many downsides to fighting in a civilized way. I may be biased. I would like to live in the world where I can go to a kubbitz for a few months and chill with mindnumbing labour. So I do hope Israel regains the moral authority it once had.
Seb Member	Thu Oct 26 09:47:31 Rugian: "Your entire premise for calling the Islamic world civilized I'd that they are willfully ignoring the butchery of children" This would only make sense if you thought I'd said the Islamic world was willfully ignoring butchery of children. I said no such thing. I said: 1. It's very clear that Hamas, at least, believes the Arab and Islamic world would be disgusted by its actions, which is why it denies to them that it has done so. 2. There will be some people in the Arab world that despite evidence presented will not believe that evidence is authentic. This is neither representative of either "the Islamic world" as you characterise it. Or even most of it. Nor is this "wilfully ignoring", it is disbelieving. Like how you inexplicably disbelieve that Russia engages in election manipulation. I'm not gaslighting, rather you are engaging in straw man arguments by pretending I have said something other than what I have said, or are genuinely so stupid you have misunderstood very clear text.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 26 09:50:37 "The purpose of the economic blockades of Germany were to starve it of the resources required to wage war." Lol thanks for confirming the blockade of gaza is proper.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 26 10:37:06 Et tu Rugium? It's an iron law of discourse called "Sebgul's law". As the discussion progresses the chance for lies, gas lighting and other forms of absurdities reaches 1.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 11:01:34 Seb Explain all of the Muslim protests then. Every single participant in those is actively siding with baby killers.
Rugian Member	Thu Oct 26 11:01:45 Jergul There's always Amish country.
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