Utopia Talk / Politics / "Stop the genocide!"

Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 12:24:17 Palestinian fatalities in the Gaza war by month 10/31/23 - 8,005 11/30/23 - 7,202 12/31/23 - 6,978 01/31/24 - 4,946 02/29/24 - 2,904 03/31/24 - 2,747 04/30/24 - 1,753 05/31/24 - 1,749 06/30/24 - 1,616 07/31/24 - 1,545 08/31/24 - 1,293 09/30/24 - 877 10/16/24 - 794 Source: The (Hamas-run) Gazan Ministry of Health, as (uncritically) quoted by the United Nations http://www...hot-gaza-strip-16-october-2024 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Israel was committing a genocide, wouldn't those numbers be going in the opposite direction? Oh, and these numbers are inclusive of Hamas terrorists and combatants. Civilians too, but the responsibility for most of those belongs to Hamas due to their policy of intentionally hiding behind non-combatants. Seems like Israel stopped the "genocide" all on their own. Don't expect UP's leftists to change their media-provided talking points at all though.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 13:32:22 "An appalling death rate of 800 a day in the Warsaw ghetto was reported"
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 14:26:33 http://www...S0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext Ruggy, out of curiousity. What percentage of Gaza's population has to die each month the reach your genocide threshold. Conversely, what percentage of Israel proper's population has to die each month to reach the same level? Let me guess...perhaps 9000:13? So...wow...that is a pretty small fraction of a percentage.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 14:37:52 When did the jews in Warsaw Ghetto launch an attack on Berlin, killing, raping and kidnapping innocent Jergulians? Hmm?
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 14:41:21 And nice try, by the way. Mentioning only one ghetto out of hundreds of ghettos, and not mentioning any death camp either.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:25:10 Asgard The final solution came on only as Germany was losing the war. Losing is inherently radicalizing. Germany had a plan for a Jewish homeland on Madagascar while things were looking good. An Israel actually losing a conflict would Shoah the shit out of way more than Gaza. Of that we can be certain. Its like your leaders (not only the current ones) have been reading up on Europe 1933-46. Took notes. And learned all the wrong lessons from the wrong people.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:26:46 And how is a homeland in Madagaskar so inherently different from what Israel ended up with? Assuming the same US funding of course.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:35:18 Learn some empathy. Nabka is trending towards Shoah in terms of absolute human suffering. A different timeline, sure. A bit more concentrated. The Warsaw ghetto did not last 75 years after all. But boiling the frog over decades does not change what Israel is doing to the Palestinian people.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 15:36:21 Gove your land back to the Sami and then ask your questions
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:38:24 And btw. Underplaying the Jewish resistance to the Nazi regime on all fronts and in occupied areas is a serious miscasting of Jewish history. Resistance did not begin with Zionism in case your schoolbooks are unclear on that part.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:38:48 I am sami Asgard.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 15:42:52 Well, wow, OK. So why are you not going bombing and killing and raping the evil occupying Germanic Norwegians? They are colonizers after all.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:48:33 The misplaced poetic justice of the Manhattan project delivered sacramental fire (another way of saying holocaust) unto Japan against significant moral trepidation on the part of the Alamo community. The weapons they knew they were designing were meant for use against a Germany highly suspected of committing genocide on the Jewish people. To name one pretty big act of resistance. The atomic bomb was a Jewish creation meant to smite Nazi Germany. So, yah. Victimize that.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 15:49:48 jergul large member Sat Oct 19 13:32:22 "An appalling death rate of 800 a day in the Warsaw ghetto was reported" I see that the concept of scale is lost on you. The Warsaw Ghetto housed an estimated 460,000 Jews. At 800 deaths per day, the ghetto would have been entirely eradicated within 1.6 years. Contrast that with the Gaza war. Let's say that Israel is killing ~1,000 Gazans per month, against a population of 2.1 million. That would mean it would take Israel 175 years to entirely eradicate the Gazan population. Get good at math jergul.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 15:51:36 As far as I can recall, the Sami arw scattered all over northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and Scandinavian Russia. You should team up, form a coalition, create a resistance and FIGHT for your country - even though you never really had a country, just like the Palestinians - and then when the Norwegians make you a reasonable offer that even the Americans and Russians both advise you to tale it, then you should reject it and asl for even more while bombing buses and restaurants full of evil Norweginists! And when they attack back, be sure you record it all on Tiktok for maximum sympathy. Solid plan am right?
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:52:15 Asgard To be serious? Social economic opportunities defused Sami radicalism along with recognition and special privileges to counter historical wrongs. Not entirely successful (the poorest areas of Norway remain sami communities), but enough. Same reason really for why Israel and Germany are buddies these days. Germany is doing what it can to correct a grave historical injustice.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 15:54:01 jergul large member Sat Oct 19 15:25:10 "Asgard The final solution came on only as Germany was losing the war. Losing is inherently radicalizing." Okay. Well, one, the Wannsee Conference took place in January 1942, well before Germany was clearly losing the war...and two, liquidation of the Jews was not a military exigency of any sort, the millions of prisoners they were housing were far and away all civilians. Other than that, just an A-one rock-solid knowledge of history jergul. Well done.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 15:55:33 jergul large member Sat Oct 19 15:38:24 And btw. Underplaying the Jewish resistance to the Nazi regime You did not just compare the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising to October 7. You did not just do that. Jesus. Clearly, de-nazification efforts were never fully extended into Norway.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 15:57:01 Hamas Lappland style is not a solution to historical wrongs. Though if you tried to enclave me and left my children with no opportunity, then all bets would be off. You should try the Scandinavia approach. Baby steps. Formalize your borders and give citizenship to minorities within those borders. That would be a good start.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:02:35 Ruggy Nope. The death toll is what triggered the uprising.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:05:08 The Gaza toll is comparable to the toll of ghetto liquidation was my point. But what is your genocide threshold? What percentage of a population has to die each much to reach it? Does it vary by population? I rather suspect that is the case, but feel free to elaborate.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:05:32 each month*
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:06:48 Also, Germany was fucked from 8th december 1941 and it knew it was fucked.
Asgard Member	Sat Oct 19 16:08:28 “ You should try the Scandinavia approach. Baby steps. Formalize your borders and give citizenship to minorities within those borders. That would be a good start. show deleted posts” Yeah, it’s called the 1948 UN partition plan. Question for you: Who accepted the plan, and who rejected it by declaring war together with an alliance of 6 other Arab countries?
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 16:08:52 jergul It's not even remotely comparable. The Warsaw Ghetto uprising took place in April 1943. The death rate of 800 per day was reported in May 1942. In the intervening year, the Germans had been shipping off Jews to death camps to be annhiliated. By contrast, at the very start of the Gazan War the Gazans were dying at a rate of 267 per day. A rate not sustained for very long, and reduced to less than 30 as of today. And we are talking about a significantly larger population base here. Bottom line, you don't understand math. Get good jergul.
Seb Member	Sat Oct 19 16:09:22 Jergul: The answer to your question is that the crime depends on intent, not death rate. And Israel's ruling party have been clear and open about their intent.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 16:11:37 jergul Hitler was enthusiastic about the Axis' chances in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. He even unilaterally declared war on the United States even though he had no obligation to do so. Damn man. I feel sorry for the state of the Norwegian education system if I have to be the one teaching you all of this.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:16:07 Ruggy According to the lancet formula, 267 times 12 have been dying each day. A small fraction in direct combat. The rest due to the collapse of everything. I doubt 60 were being shot a day by Germans in 1942, so the ratio would be scewed even more back then. Seb Intent is not the end-all. The intent of a secure Jewish homeland is not per se the genocide of Palestinians. Genocide is just the logical consequence of forming an exclusive ethnocentric state in an area the size of a postage stamp that was already inhabited.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:17:35 Ruggy He pre-emptively declared war on the US because he was a domestic political animal worried about popular sentiment and did not understand US politics well enough to know that perhaps direct conflict was still avoidable.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:18:07 Rest safe. You are teaching me nothing.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 16:27:40 Ruggy Maybe stop creating these typebait threads? They never end well. The problem with Israel is its desire to be an exclusive ethnocentric state. Too many people there do not share the ethniticity. The best outcome is ultimately to give up on the Zionist experiment and instead embrace multiculturalism. A one-state solution with significant home rule to various areas with specific ethnic compositions. Or a one-state solution. There is not enough space for a two-state solution you see. Both countries cannot be sovereign, secure and viable. The premise for that now is first deradicalisation of occupied areas outside of Israel's undefined borders. So a lengthy occupation along the line of post ww2 Germany. With a shitton of economic development in other words. But it all starts with boots on the ground in Gaza funded by the US for as long as it takes. There are alternatives. Those will not end well.
Rugian Member	Sat Oct 19 16:34:53 jergul Hitler and his generals dismissed the American threat because they were separated by an ocean. A stupid assumption, but then again a forgivable one considering how much stock Europeans have historically put into the "anything that happens across the Atlantic is irrelevant" mentality. ROFL at the Lancet. The same publication that not only published fake anti-US propaganda during the Iraq War, but that subsequently came out as an explicitly pro-Hamas organization in 2014. Good god. I know you Euros like to stick together, but to quote a British publication? As if it was actually credible? You're better than this jergul. I am sorry that you are not taking any lessons from me. My American education system taught me far more than yours ever did for you. The benefits of being raised in a superpower and all. Perhaps you will eventually come to respect us, peasant.
Dukhat Member	Sat Oct 19 16:45:51 One of the only good things Trump did was ban muslim immigration. Watching these fucking morons treat their women like shit and cry crocodile tears over some terrorists who have nothing to do with them other than be muslim makes me want to throw up.
jergul large member	Sat Oct 19 17:20:28 Ruggy Jesus Christ, Germans knew US entry into wwi was instrumental in Germany's defeat, but your theory is they memory holed that fact for wwii? Stop trying to prove you know nothing. Yes, facts have a anti-us bias. We know that.
Paramount Member	Mon Oct 21 13:08:58 Asgard, Have you not gone to Lebanon to defend yourself?
Forwyn Member	Mon Oct 21 13:20:28 "Nope. The death toll is what triggered the uprising." Lol no. Strategic opportunism is what triggered the uprising. The same sort that led to your Soviet heroes to park outside and wait for them all to die.
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