Utopia Talk / Politics / Flashback: Europeans laughing at Trump

Rugian Member	Sun Mar 09 10:06:55 Trump at the UN, 2018: "Reliance on a single foreign supplier can leave nations vulnerable to extortion and intimidation and that is why we congratulate European states such as Poland for leading construction of a Baltic pipeline so that nations are not dependent on Russia to meet their energy needs. Germany will become totally dependent on Russian energy if it does not immediately change course. Here in the Western hemisphere, we are committed to maintaining our independence from the encroachment of expansionist foreign powers." German delegation: *visibly laughing at Trump* http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FfJv9QYrlwg
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 09 10:13:45 This is European intransigence in a nutshell. Multiple US administrations (Obama, Trump I, Biden) have warned Europe that they are spending too little on defense, that they're in violation of their NATO treaty requirements, that their short-term thinking is leading them to sign deals with their enemies, that they need to have a major paradigm shift on how to protect themselves in a 21st century multipolar world and accept that the responsibility for defending Europe should fall more to Europe. In response, European bureaucrats laughed us off, called us backwards, mocked our lack of spending on social programmes compared to themselves (hmm, I wonder if the money was being spent on something else?), and generally treated us with smug indifference. In comes Trump II, who finally holds Europe to task, tells them to get their shit in order, and backs up his threats with teeth. Voila, Europe is finally committed to spending more on its own defense. Sometimes, the best way to help a friend is with tough love. This is what Trump is using, tough love. When Europe has metaphorically sobered up and started a new life in which it is able to survive on its own two feet, they will thank us for getting them on the right path.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 09 12:02:20 ” Reliance on a single foreign supplier can leave nations vulnerable to extortion and intimidation” Every nation that is reliable on the USA know this very well.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 09 12:32:38 *dependent on the USA
Forwyn Member	Sun Mar 09 12:44:22 Seb: This is an unprecedented betrayal! We have been stabbed in the back!
Sam Adams Member	Sun Mar 09 13:26:09 http://x.com/Tendar/status/1898713552346546332 the us has been warning the sebs about this for generations even.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 15:30:53 "In response, European bureaucrats laughed us off, called us backwards, mocked our lack of spending on social programmes compared to themselves (hmm, I wonder if the money was being spent on something else?), and generally treated us with smug indifference." [Citation needed] Opposition to Russia's oil pipeline within Europe was large. Explain how it's necessary to force Ukraine to surrender to Russia because Germany was greedy....
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 15:43:13 "they will thank us for getting them on the right path" Correction. Once Europe no longer needs the US for defence, and has embraced the US model of debt fueled growth for the Euro, it will have no need to recognise US intellectual property or accept access of US firms to sell services in Europe, and will do to US firms exactly what China did.
Forwyn Member	Sun Mar 09 16:18:27 I love that Seb pretends that friendly consumerism is completely one-sided. How many domestic US firms has the USG allowed European conglomerates to absorb?
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 17:22:36 Forwyn: *Shrug* ok then. Sure. What's your point? That it would be super mean for the EU to de-globalise, on-shore services, ignore US copyright? I'm sure it will feel that way to you; but this is the obvious move given "US tough love" so why do you think it won't do it?
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 17:31:22 The important point was "friendly" - implicit in that is your trade partner won't repeatedly rip up agreements because in style sectors you have an advantage and raise protective tarrifs, and won't suddenly disable sold goods and service contracts in the middle of a crisis. That totally outweighs any benefit of trade based on comparative advantage. And if as partner does that *once*, just once, it can happen again. So, I say again, how can Europe trust the US? And if it can't trust the US, why would it honour IP? Why would it provide access to European markets? If we can't trust your financial systems, why rely on US capital market and US dollar for trade? Why lend to the US?
Seb Member	Sun Mar 09 17:35:28 You are right, the system was win-win, but benefited the US far more. But the system is now dead, because you tried to turn it into an extractive system more like that which the British Empire ran. Theres no coming back from it.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Mar 09 17:58:37 Lol sebs gone off the deep end. TDS is really hitting him bad this term. Like youve always been a far left nutcase but this deranged ranting: rip up all the rules and treat the us worse than china is just hilariously detatched from reality.
Seb Member	Mon Mar 10 02:27:51 Sam: The US ripped up all the rules: 1. Unilaterally sabotaged wto dispute resolution mechanisms 2. Unilateral breaking of trade deals and imposition of tarrifs 3. Demand to change internal tax policies that are trade neutral 4. Open demand to use trade policy to forcibly move economic activity 5. Pulling support for sold military gear in breach of contracts to coerce foreign policy and support for allies. 6. Intervening with US based companies to prevent them from honouring contacts, again to coerce foreign policy and prevent us supporting allies. You aren't following rules. The first four make it impossible to deal with Trump admin because they make a deal, then immediately break it again. The second two mean we can't rely on any US based critical service, no matter the Administration. So... what rule book? Trump torched it. Why would the rest of the world keep following it?
Seb Member	Mon Mar 10 02:58:21 The American right have memed themselves into insanity. "If we call it 'Trump derangement syndrome' perhaps they won't notice!". You've normalised idiotic behaviour by your leaders to the point you can't even recognise a rational response to it anymore.
williamthebastard Member	Mon Mar 10 03:17:17 At this point, the worse Trump gets, the more he strengthens liberal democracy. His bullying has backfired. Each time he spouts off about annexing Canada or Greenland etc., the more it shocks the democracies of the world into fully accepting the new reality that the US now in earnest belongs to the Russian, North Korean gang. The EUR 800 billion EU arms race is really about arming ourselves against the US. Of course, Trump is only the TV celebrity figurehead for the Sam Adamses and it would take at least a generation for the US to become halfway decent again, which even more reinforces the understanding that there's no point anymore in waiting for the next election in the US and hoping someone half sane gets elected. All this is making France the unofficial leader of the free world, which includes the EU states, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Canada, the Baltic states etc.
Seb Member	Mon Mar 10 04:09:26 http://bsk...bsky.social/post/3ljz6crb7pk2k More polling data: just under half of UK population see the US as an ally. My views are not particularly outside UK mainstream. Sam, has it occurred to you that you are suffering from the real TDS? You have all the most Atlantacist pro-us politicians across Europe talking about ditching US relationships in defense, trade and finance and pursuing independence like the most rabid Gaulists. The public polls show attitudes to the US more akin to how China and Russia are perceived than other Western countries. You have a string of former (often recently former) British military figures of the most senior ranks - ones that have trenchantly opposed European military integration and a long history working with Americans and championing buying American saying we urgently need to form integrated defense structures with Europe, ditch the US, and ditch US kit. These are the people most likely *not* to freak out at a minor policy spat. What do you think they might know about that US which can't be discussed openly?
williamthebastard Member	Mon Mar 10 04:22:18 Its harder to convince a fascist not to believe in fascism than it is to convince a liberal democrat to not believe in liberal democracy. This is because fascism is a war ideology, fundamentally based on selecting an enemy to gang up in a group against, with all the group-think that demands. Liberal democracy doesnt need a victim, but a bully cant be a bully without a victim.
murder Member	Mon Mar 10 08:15:58 "rip up all the rules and treat the us worse than china is just hilariously detatched from reality." Why is that detached from reality? Just because the US believes that it's in our interest to contain China doesn't mean that it's in Europe's interest. China challenging US dominance is exactly the kind of thing they would naturally encourage. That's the game we've chosen to play. -
Seb Member	Mon Mar 10 09:37:14 "China challenging US dominance is exactly the kind of thing they would naturally encourage." Pretty much. We want cheap shit, they want export markets, we need to borrow, they need somewhere to invest surplus, we both want the US marginalised given the chaos and naked attempts to exploit its position. We disagree about a bunch of stuff, but those disagreements can maybe be managed.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 10 11:20:18 "China is a better partner than the US" "I dont have tds" Lmao. Yes seb, trump is a retard. Now you want to burn everything to ground and ally with china because of that retard. Which is more retarded?
jergul large member	Mon Mar 10 13:07:48 Sammy, your political system is retarded. Your president has way to much unchecked power in dealings abroad. Created to deal with absolute monarchs in their time, you elect an absolute president that is checked every four years for all things outside of US jurisdiction. Trump is a natural conclusion of that. The next guy will be no different. So, yah, its reset and pivot time. Seb China will not invest significantly if Russia's sovereign fund is not handed back.
Seb Member	Mon Mar 10 13:34:54 Sam: Yes. China is stable. The US isn't. You can't partner with a country that will rip up drama every two years. It's values are shit, but at least you have a basis. Jergul: Well, they haven't been confiscated yet! Though there's nothing stopping assets being held elsewhere.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 10 19:13:43 Lol, like i said peak tds. Trump is in charge so lets become a vassal of china instead. Lol good luck.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 07:32:49 We aren't and never will be a vassal of China. Today, the chiefs if staff for the entire free world is meeting - the US isn't there.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 08:17:30 "the rest of you are all mad" yells Sam Adams at the crowd of Europeans and assorted citizens of the rest of the free world. "you are all deranged! Deranged!" He screams, but already he is receding into the distance towards the cliff, born away by crowd of drooling MAGAs. Faintly, his last words can just be heard "You stupid libtards! Kamela would have been worse!", but his voice is soon drowned out by the wet thuds and cracks eminating from the cliff edge as the van of the maga crowd meet their final destination.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 11 09:47:29 Lol. Good one. That was your first non retarded post in about 13 years. Congrats.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 11 09:54:05 Anyway its not that trump doesnt suck... its that your reaction is even suckier... especially compared with your own past of sucky political decisions. Like you should be used to bad politics by now.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 11 10:01:15 ^ correct. It's fine to call out Trump's dumber moves, but Seb's overreaction is 10x worse. Boo hoo, he told Europe that he wants to bring the Ukraine war to an end...so in Seb's mind that means severing all ties with the US and throwing in with the Chinese communists? Wtf?
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 10:39:53 Sam: It really isn't. It's not even particularly controversial. It's mainstream opinion in the rest of the world. Check polls etc. It's not Trump per-se. It's that a majority of you guys think someone like Trump and his policies are a good idea, and that there's no effective checks and balances on what he can do on stuff that matters to us, including blatant treachery and undermining our defence by pulling live services we've paid for from commercial entities. This means there's absolutely no basis for conducting state-to-state business with any certainty or reliability, and scant for commercial trade either. You can be the best goddamned roofer in the world, but if you want payment up front but there's only a 10% chance you turn up, and you have a habit of demanding extra payment if it looks like there's a storm coming before you can get someone else in ... you ain't getting the job.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 10:50:35 Rugian: I can't work out if you are genuinely stupid, or just so much of a partisan hack that you seriously believe if you keep misrepresenting stuff we will magically agree with you. Trump doesn't "want peace", he is trying to force a Ukrainian surrender on worse terms than Ukraine could have obtained, and on terms that are hugely detrimental to European security, and the leverage he is using undermines the credibility of the US as ally:cutting off intelligence, attempts to force allies sharing their own intelligence, cutting off support for paid and delivered systems, cutting off delivery of systems paid for and attempting to extort Ukraine to surrender its natural resources. This is a country that fought for the US in Afghanistan and which you made security guarantees to including a promise not to militarily or economically coerce to surrender nuclear weapons. Not only are you breaching the obligation to take a stance against Russian aggression, you are breaking it in and of itself. Fuck, hell no, we aren't going to trust the US after that. Are you fucking mad?
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 10:53:45 So put it this way, my view is mainstream. All the most Atlantacist politicians in Europe - like myself - have all pivoted. You can see it in their statements, in the polls, in the decisions being made. So, when the rest of the world is all agreed, maybe you are the ones suffering from TDS: namely you've convinced yourself this is normal acceptable behaviour rather than the kind of stuff you expect from a senile soviet premier up to his eyeballs in vodka and on the warpath.
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 11 10:54:11 "entire free world" Go back to jailing people for insulting rapists, Seb. Free world. LMAO
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 10:59:58 One really good thing though, all the populist parties that hitched themselves to Trump are getting hit in the polls in Europe. It's like how Brexit killed the idea of leaving the EU in every other EU country.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 11:01:03 Forwyn: Says the guy from a country where the president just announced he has disappeared someone without any due process.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Mar 11 11:07:53 "One really good thing though, all the populist parties that hitched themselves to Trump are getting hit in the polls in Europe." Its doing exactly that in the free world. Trump is now saying he'll double the tariffs on Canadian electricity and other products, which is great news. It convinces the free world even more that the USA is completely impossible to deal with on a friendly basis anymore. Utterly convinces them since they see all the Sam Adams/Rugians completely behind him. And hwne he's dead and buried, there will still be a generation of them acting the same way. The thing is, for Trump, since he see the USA as his personal possession, he takes all this personally. For Canada to answer back is a personal insult to him, and he has to show he's much, much bigger and tougher than them. And since rising costs dont impact him in the slightest, and US subjects should be proud to give their lives for him, he'll just go on an insane personal revenge crusade against Canada.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Mar 11 11:12:55 He'll motivate this insanity to himself and his adulating closest sphere by saying that if he backs down, the rest of the world will see him as weak, so he has to punish canada until they fold. Which is just going to cause utter havoc for the USA and Canada while making all the democracies of the world cut off all important ties with the batshit loony Maga country.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 11 14:20:41 "It's that a majority of you guys think someone like Trump and his policies are a good idea" Wrong. A majority of us think trump and his policies is less bad than kamala. And after abandoning israel and a host of other idiocy from you and the far left, you cant fault us for that(though having a republican better than trump sure would have been nice). "where the president just announced he has disappeared someone without any due process." Lol no. Is this that retarded palestinian who posted all over social media cheering for oct 7, a clear and obvious violation of his visa that says you cant support terrorism? And is simply being deported?
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 11 14:30:00 Remember when Seb said he would have deported that Afghan in Germany? lol.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 14:30:57 Sam: Firstly, everyone outside the US think that assessment is completely nuts. Secondly, it doesn't fucking matter, if your system can turn up Donald Trump twice, and there's no institutional checks and balances to stop a president just blowing everything up, it does not matter what caused you to decide that was least bad. It just means the US is a basket case and not a country worth dealing with.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 14:30:57 Sam: Firstly, everyone outside the US think that assessment is completely nuts. Secondly, it doesn't fucking matter, if your system can turn up Donald Trump twice, and there's no institutional checks and balances to stop a president just blowing everything up, it does not matter what caused you to decide that was least bad. It just means the US is a basket case and not a country worth dealing with.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 14:30:57 Sam: Firstly, everyone outside the US think that assessment is completely nuts. Secondly, it doesn't fucking matter, if your system can turn up Donald Trump twice, and there's no institutional checks and balances to stop a president just blowing everything up, it does not matter what caused you to decide that was least bad. It just means the US is a basket case and not a country worth dealing with.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 14:33:19 Further, this babbling nonsense about abandoning Israel, which absolutely did not happen - again, this may work internally for you guys to convince yourself why Trump was a sensible choice. To the rest of the world it just highlights that the US is completely insane and incapable - and I mean literally incapable - of striking any meaningful deal or any meaningful relationship because its electorate are barking mad and living in an actual fantasy world with no regard to objective facts.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 14:40:46 Forwyn: ". Is this that retarded palestinian who posted all over social media cheering for oct 7, a clear and obvious violation of his visa that says you cant support terrorism?" He's not on a visa as I understand it, he has full residency; and hasn't met the threshold for supporting terrorism. In any case, due process is still required. You can't just snatch people up and disappear them. If there are actual grounds for deportation then that should be transparent, open to challenge. I can't believe I have to argue the idea that there should be rule of law rather than executive fiat. And indeed this absence of rule of law and executive whim which changes on a 4 year basis makes the US uniquely poorly suited for international relations. You can deal with Xi - he's there for a long time and represents a stable set of interests of an oligarchy behind him. You can deal with MBS, he's an autocrat, but he's staying in place for life. You can't deal with Putin, he'll rip everything up the moment it suits him. You can't deal with the US: the leader changes every for years, and the dominant faction doesn't believe in abiding by deals, and it's completely out of touch with reality and just believes random shit that's objectively false.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 11 16:24:01 "Further, this babbling nonsense about abandoning Israel, which absolutely did not happen" Says seb 3 posts after being caught in yet another antisemitic lie. Amazing.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 11 16:34:44 And the mainstreaming of this kind of self indulgence is why nobody takes the US seriously.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 11 17:31:51 Seb is taken very seriously. From crying that the world is ending due to global warming, to believing hamas propaganda, to thinking blacks dont have an elevated crime, that genes are fake, etc etc. Very serious indeed lol.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Mar 11 17:32:13 The US is a greater threat to the free world than China at this point. The two main threats to the free world are Russia and the USA. China is hovering in the background, but for the time being theyre a lot less belligerent than Russia/USA, and theyre also not denying climate science, which, according to science is the most dangerous threat of all.
williamthebastard Member	Tue Mar 11 17:39:11 Both the US and Russia are attacking their peaceful neighbours. China remains a passive potential threat to their neighbours for the time being. Both the US and Russia continue to plunder and reduce their middle classes while China continues to expand it. China's trajectory so far is a better one.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 12 01:47:43 Sam: There you go again - anything that challenges your prejudice, rather than engage in, you dismiss with lies. And then you try to pretend that Trump is nothing to do with you personally, because you are "smart", rather than Trump being the very expression of your own incompetent, childish approach to the world.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 12 09:59:51 Seb Member Tue Mar 11 11:01:03 Forwyn: "the president just announced he has disappeared someone" And you are complaining about lies?
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 12 10:04:39 "Its not lies when i lie" -very serious person representing very serious country.
Paramount Member	Wed Mar 12 10:35:17 ” Both the US and Russia are attacking their peaceful neighbours.” Ukraine isn’t peaceful. There was a bloody coup. They stripped the rights of their own citizens in eastern Ukraine, told them to leave the country and then the Ukrainian army started to attack and shell their own citizens.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 12 11:52:29 Sam: What do you call it when the president takes to his personal social media platform, announces that he's personally intervened to get an individual seized and taken to an unknown location in defiance of the legally required due process, and his officers are refusing Habeas Corpus writs?
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 12 11:59:13 Yes seb, in order for your propaganda to sound better you had to lie about a simple deportation case and turn it into "getting dissappeared". This is how you help trump get elected. When you are dishonest and incompetent yourself... the dishonesty and incompetence of the other side no longer counts against them at the voting booth either.
williamthebastard Member	Wed Mar 12 14:02:21 "syense is comunizm" - Oddams
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 12 14:03:37 Go talk to your therapist wtb. You are babbling on UP again.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 12 14:10:55 Sammy A politically motivated detention, arrest and imprisonment is pretty clearly something to frown at. Even foreigners have first ammendment rights inside of the US. The fellow was engaged in a protected activity when arrested.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 12 14:41:03 Nah, it very clearly says migrants cannot support terror groups(like hamas) or they will get their authorization canceled. He blatantly did so and is now being deported. "detention, arrest and imprisonment" Lol.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 12 17:57:49 Sam: It's not simple for the reasons above. What he was doing doesn't meet the definition of "supporting terror groups" in US law. If it did, Rugian would be in jail, given comments he once made about the IRA. Green cards can be revoked for that reason but requires court hearings, not the whim of that president (unlike a visa). And habeas corpus still applies. So I stand by my point: there's at least three major issues here: 1. Selective application of law: the president is picking specific individuals to enforce on. 2. Lack of judicial basis: the charge doesn't meet the definition of the crime, which is material support, not verbal support, and it's not even clear from what I've seen that he's even met that threshold: saying Israel should kill and starve civilians isn't equivalent to supporting Hamas. 3. Lack of transparency: habeas corpus exists precisely because if the king can just grab someone and hold them in secret without access to the judiciary indefinitely they cannot assert their rights and that's just tyranny. So yes, so far, What's happened here is exactly like what the South American dictatorships did when "disappearing" people. Accuse them of vague unspecified crimes, abducted them without due process or clear legal basis, spirited them away to undisclosed locations and refused to allow them access to the law or courts or provide any accountability for the actions. The thing is Sam, if they can do it for immigrants, they can do it for citizens.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 13 05:01:30 The sheer level of discourse around various European countries developing nukes (used to be unthinkable) is somewhat concerning. There's going to be a point, I think, where Russia and the US realise that the main point of NATO was to prevent an integrated Europe (a continent with a deep history of violent militarism and military industrial capacity and strong opinions on how the world should work) from building a huge military of its own.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Mar 13 07:28:32 "Selective application of law" Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha Coming from a two tier brit leftist! Amazing. "which is material support, not verbal support" The specific line simply says support. "spirited them away to undisclosed locations and refused to allow them access to the law or courts or provide any accountability for the actions." Ya not a single one of those is happening. "the main point of NATO was to prevent an integrated Europe from building a huge military of its own." Lolwut. Insanity. You really actually have tds.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Mar 13 07:31:11 US every year since ive been alive: hey euros you should build up your army. Sebs: nah we are pussies lazy and cheap. Sebs in 2025: you didnt let us build an army!!!!!
Seb Member	Thu Mar 13 11:06:03 Sam: Only the two tier thing is bullshit, and you just don't even have rule of law at all. "The specific line simply says support." There's a whole set of jurisprudence on what that means. And nobody has even presented evidence that he has done that. "Lolwut. Insanity." What do you think "keep the Germans down" means? "hey euros you should build up your army." No, actually, very specifically: you should buy American kit, but not develop independently c&c, logistics etc. The US repeatedly intervened on the point. The US wants European troops buying US kit under US command. That's been the issue ": nah we are pussies lazy and cheap." Lol. No. That's hilarious. I've been pro military expenditure and intervention all along.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Mar 13 14:46:27 "The US wants European troops buying US kit under US command." Duh. We wanted you to buy more of it. Building more of your own was acceptable but obviously less preferable to giving us money. As for command, also duh. You dont let your kid fill out your mortgage do you? "I've been pro military expenditure and intervention all along." Lol. Amazing. The outright lies. Whats next... are you going to say you have always suspected global warming was overhyped? That you have always thought unlimited muslum and african migration was a problem? We have 25 years of data on you being a dove. Trump is elected a second time and now you are a total warhawk? Like i said... clear case of TDS
Seb Member	Thu Mar 13 16:49:05 Portugal just cancelled it's F-35 purchase citing unreliability of the US.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 13 17:01:57 "You dont let your kid fill out your mortgage do you" So that's the point: Europe was reluctant to spend big on what the US wanted - expensive force protection and expeditionary forces to fight American wars under American command. The US did, as you accept, intervene to discourage Europe investing in C&C, ISTAR, logistics airlift etc. Only that means we can't easily fight Russia without US backing, because we'd be reliant on airpower while lacking the C&C ISTAR and refuelling. Hence the "stab in the back", and hence what will happen now: divestment from US equipment, huge expenditure on Europe based military industrial complex, development of C&C, logistics, ISTAR and refuelling. And obviously we won't want to duplicate Rammstein etc, we will want to kick the US armed forces out and use those bases ourselves. The result will be horrendous for US military exports due to loss of Euro market but also European competitors in the rest of the world; loss of force protection info Africa and the middle East, and direct competition from a well governed, open, rule of law based block with lower debt, higher political stability and a competing global reserve currency. What genius this trump is. Probably wouldn't have happened under Kamela. "The outright lies" Lol. Ok Sam. Americans have gotten so used to believing what their party leaders tell them they can't really remember objective reality. The big mistake in 1984 was to believe you'd need to coerce the population to double think. "We have 25 years of data on you being a dove" Yeah, so Doveish. I was Pro Afghanistan and said we needed to occupy Afghanistan hard or the Taliban would come back. I was Pro Iraq (and said we needed a heavy occupation there, back when Dumbsfeld thought you'd be greeted with flowers). I was for intervention in Syria. I was for intervention on the ground in Libya. I was for intervention in the Balkans. I'm still an avid supporter or RTP and Blair's Chicago speech on liberal interventionism. Oh and I was a big supporter of the EU building parallel logistics and ISTAR capabilities in case the US shafted us (though opposed as actual EU army). If you think that's 25 years of being a Dove you've not been paying attention. Maybe one day, I'll be arguing for military intervention to free the oppressed people of the US!
Seb Member	Thu Mar 13 17:05:16 On Russia, I was arguing we should have confronted them on Chechnya back in the day. I warned after Georgia they would eventually attack the Baltics and we should be more forceful than just cancelling orders. Dove my arse.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Mar 13 18:37:50 "huge expenditure on Europe based military industrial complex, development of C&C, logistics, ISTAR and refuelling." Lol. You talk alot but no one believes you will actually do this.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Mar 13 18:41:45 Youve been soft and lazy for too long. Your boys wont fight for you... youve called them racist and evil and tried to replace them for the last 30 years. You would rather spend that money on welfare and other handouts and wind turbines.
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 13 21:33:38 Lol Sociopath Sam once again showing he's exactly like Trump and every dumb drunken Russian who gets his head blown off in the fields of Ukraine. Us Russians fight grizzly bear with bare hand! We no homisexy!
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 13 22:04:26 "If I were to hit a puppy on the freeway I wouldnt care! I could even back up and drive over it again, because Im a REAL MAN! If I had to choose between shooting my mother or me, I would shoot her in a second because Im TOUGH! I even eat burgers MEDIUM RARE!" - Sociopath Sam being a real man
williamthebastard Member	Thu Mar 13 22:22:12 I read an interview with a Ukranian soldier who said most of the tough guy american volunteers quickly bought a ticket back home once they realized they werent fighting a much smaller army with hardly any weapons, which is what they were used to.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 14 05:48:47 "The Japanese can't fly because of their slitty eyes", "China can't be a competitor because communism makes them all into drones"
Seb Member	Fri Mar 14 05:51:08 "Your boys wont fight" Someone's not been paying any attention to how modern warfare works.
williamthebastard Member	Fri Mar 14 07:42:33 So the Russian army is employing neonazis to "educate" school children and their motto is "Sadist and proud of it". How long for Maga which consists of exactly the same kind of supremacist uberpatriots as the drunken russian uber-machoists to openly normalize and laud the benefits of sadism?
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 14 08:29:23 Seb, the japs and chinese had/have morale. They were taught to believe in their country and cause. You teach your kids to hate themselves and their civilization.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 14 09:50:21 Sam: At the time you and your ilk said they didn't. We have morale, an there's a lot of hatred of Russians and Americans which amounts to the same thing. "You teach your kids to hate themselves and their civilization." I mean sure, you can make things up like a good little brainwashed cult member. Meanwhile German factory goes brrrrr.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 14 10:56:01 German factory? Why not UK factory? Even in your propaganda and your lies you cant quite delude yourself enough to make it look like the UK is capable of doing anything. Rofl.
Forwyn Member	Fri Mar 14 10:56:43 > brainwashed cult member > there's a lot of hatred of Russians and Americans lol
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 14 11:12:09 German factory go *fart noise* because german energy production is *poop noise*.
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