Utopia Talk / Politics / Europe bans tobbacco

habebe Member	Fri Apr 17 18:55:33 Now that I have your attention: 1. Not all of Europe has. (Sweden seems to embrace smokeless tobbacco) 2. While ciggarettes remain legal "snus" a less harmfull version apparently is "Foulds says Swedes' widespread use of snus has helped lower the adult male smoking rate there to among the lowest in Europe. Snus, though legal in Sweden, has been banned in most of Europe as cancer-causing and a gateway to smoking for young people. Cigarettes, however, are legal." http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-08-06-snus_N.htm
Hot Rod Member	Fri Apr 17 19:00:57 What's the matter, no will power? All you have to do is quit.
hahahaha Member	Fri Apr 17 19:09:08 Quitting smoking is easy. Quitting smoking without lashing out at your friends/coworkers during that initial withdrawal period, on the other hand, is a lot harder. Goddamn if I wasn't irritable for several weeks after I kicked the habit.
Real Fred Member	Fri Apr 17 19:24:09 I tried to quit smoking once and I killed 6 people. They deserved it though.
biggles Member	Fri Apr 17 19:28:38 I tried to quit killing people and ended up smoking. That really sucked.
Hot Rod Member	Fri Apr 17 19:30:44 I just quit and never looked back.
hahahaha Member	Fri Apr 17 19:41:34 ^why someone would lie about being a former smoker, I have no idea
nhill Member	Fri Apr 17 19:59:54 i quit cold turkey a year ago and haven't smoked since. was doing about 12 ciggies a day at the time
habebe Member	Fri Apr 17 20:18:45 I'm in the process of quitting, I tend to drink alot more beer, but less ciggarettes. When I started using amphetamines again was the easiest though, they helped me accomplish some other goals (schooling followed by getting in shape) and I just happen to not have the urge to smoke anymore, my doctor says that alot of people when properly medicated lose the urges to self-medicate through other means (smoking appaently is a rather common one)
Hot Rod Member	Fri Apr 17 21:13:59 nhill, good for you. Keep up the good work and remember. It's like being an alcoholic, you can't have just one. habebe, keep trying, don't give up. It took me 20 years before I finally made it. I was like Mark Twain. He said, "quitting smoking is the easiest thing in the world to do, I've done it hundreds of times." I had smoked for just about 50 years when I quit and I had a 3 pack a day habit. I had a little help with one of the programs at the time called 'Smoke Away' not sure if it is still around.
nhill Member	Fri Apr 17 21:47:54 ty Hot Rod
Nimatzo Member	Fri Apr 17 22:19:34 You understand that Snus is part of the Swedish master plan to subdue and control all you violent and barbaric races, right?
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 04:16:30 I don't wanna quit... and if they ban smoking in all the bars next year I'm definitely going to cry :(
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 04:17:37 No pain, no gain Nekran! You're lungs will thank you =)
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 04:20:49 Course, as a fan of personal liberty, I think all drugs should be legal in all forms. That includes nicotine. But I do enjoy that my state doesn't allow smoking in bars anymore. Well, the legislation isn't in effect in all towns but it has been in mine for a while. Even as a smoker it was much more pleasant to go to a bar without the clouds of smoke hanging around and the disgusting smell of cheap cigs.
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 04:47:22 I regularly go to a smoke-free bar (already has to be smoke-free if a certain % from their income comes from food)... but I also regularly like to go to a nice shady and smoky bar. I mean... I can't imagine what we call "the brown bars" without smoking... it's just not right. Bars weren't meant for being healthy in and there's plenty of smoke-free options around the city already anyways.
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 05:36:21 The thing here is that this city never had any smoke free bars, and neither did any of the other cities in this state that I'm aware over. You're lucky to have a happy medium to pick and choose, but over here it is all one way or all another way. As stated, I prefer it all non-smoking.
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 05:36:32 aware of*
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 05:46:45 Egoistically I prefer it all smoking... I do concede though that most smoking bans are for the better. But bars? A bridge too far! Bars aren't healthy places. You want to be in a healthy place? Don't go to a bar. I like to compare it with going to a discotheque and demanding that the music is set to a low enough decibel level not to have any chance to do any damage to your ears... it's just retarded. Don't like loud music? Don't go to a freaking discotheque!
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 05:50:34 I don't see why bars have to automatically be non-healthy, though. Sometimes I like to just go play pool or darts with my friends and not even drink or smoke. Usually I'll end up having one or two by the nights end from offerings of free drinks. (i tend to take as much free stuff as I can, even if i don't want it) I like having the option to be healthy AND unhealthy at a bar. Even if you can't smoke inside a bar, you can always just step out the door and have a ciggy. Here, anyways. Not sure about where you are from (Sweden, right?)
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 05:57:54 Belgium. Well to me smoking is an essential part of the bar-going experience. When I go to the non-smoking bar I frequent a lot, it's usually because of their delicious grilled ham & cheese sandwiches and a few glasses of wine. After that I go across the street to the smoking pub where they may or may not be showing a game of footie on the big screen. "I don't see why bars have to automatically be non-healthy, though. Sometimes I like to just go play pool or darts with my friends and not even drink or smoke." Well a bar has historically always been the place to go drink and smoke. It's not because you could theoretically be healthy in a bar that that takes away from the reason of its existence. Dartsbhoards and pooltables are all nice ornaments for bars with which customers can have some fun, but they aren't essential. The essential parts of a bar are alcohol and tobacco. Always have been, hope they always will be, but it's looking rather badly atm. You could go shoot pool or play darts in some sports-complex that is quite understandably smoke-free (though I very much disagree with the poor bowling alleys being grouped in with them). Bars are bars though... their reason for existence is to be a place where people can come relax and drug themselves up in the legal ways (which are far too few sadly).
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 06:04:38 Ah that may be the difference between us. I don't care much about time honoured traditions or what have you. I care about having as many options as possible. In a non-smoking bar, it is only non-smoking indoors, so you still have the option of smoking. You could still choose to drink/smoke, you'd just have to walk a few feet to do so. Which is probably a good thing, a little fresh air and exercise never hurt anyone, and I'd say smokers need it most of all. In a smoking bar though, you don't have the personal option of not smoking. You are smoking the second you step foot inside, albeit secondhandly. The best compromise (and the thing that would give you the most personal options) would be to have at least one non-smoking bar and at least one smoking bar in town... But that isn't possible where I live. :(
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 06:13:04 "You could go shoot pool or play darts in some sports-complex that is quite understandably smoke-free (though I very much disagree with the poor bowling alleys being grouped in with them)." Just to clarify, I don't have any other option but a bar for pool and darts. There aren't any sports complexes in the area. I don't live in the boondocks or anything (town is midsize, around 35,000). They just don't have any sort of sports complex.
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 06:26:23 It's not about tradition... it's about what they are there for. Do you really think I should be able to get a discotheque to play the music softly enough so I can't possibly have any damage to my hearing from it? A discotheque is there for loud music, a bar is there for getting drugged up in. It's not there to provide you a nice place to play a healthy match of darts in.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 06:30:49 I think any business should be allowed to clearly post at each public entrance to their establishment if they are a smoking establishment, especially bars and restaurants. Then if a person does not want to be in a smoking establishment, they should go elsewhere. If people would put as much effort into protecting the rights of all individuals as they put into finding ways to take away the rights of others for their personal convenience, this would be a better world.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 06:32:55 It should be the decision of the business owner whether they are smoke free or not.
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 06:51:40 "It's not about tradition... it's about what they are there for. Do you really think I should be able to get a discotheque to play the music softly enough so I can't possibly have any damage to my hearing from it? A discotheque is there for loud music, a bar is there for getting drugged up in. It's not there to provide you a nice place to play a healthy match of darts in." Who dictates what bars are there for? A bar (also called a pub or tavern) is a business that serves drinks, especially alcoholic beverages such as beer, liquor, and mixed drinks, for consumption on the premises.[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(establishment)
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 06:57:52 I think the business owner must definitely be able to make his place smoke-free obviously. I don't agree with leaving it completely up to them though... I see the purpose of health-regulations. I like our deal for restaurants: they can have a smoking section which can't exceed the non-smoking section in size or capacity and a smoking section must be completely sealed off from the non-smoking one. Small restaurants are forced to be non-smoking, but well it's a restaurant and it's about food. I understand that a lot of people really don't want to eat in smoke. Me myself I can smoke and eat at the same time, no problem, but most people can't and before the smoking-laws pretty much every restaurant allowed smoking, which was a bummer for a lot of people. I understand the need for a law here. And I'm pretty OK with our law... I usually only go to restaurants that have a smoking section. There's still plenty of places left for me to go. I also understand the want for smoke-free bars, but I think there's a whole lot less space for an agreement that is workable for everyone involving the law. Bars are too small to be split in 99% of the cases and you can't randomly force some to be smokefree. Bad luck, but we really can't take away one of the essential parts of all bars just to accomodate your want for a game of darts in a smoke-free environment. I'd say get a darts-board and invite your friends over.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 07:12:01 Nekran - I don't agree with leaving it completely up to them though... I see the purpose of health-regulations. What better health regulation is there. "THIS IS A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, STAY THE FUCK OUT." With such a warning it is 100% guaranteed that a patron will not have to breath 2nd hand smoke unless they decide to open the door and enter.
nhill Member	Sat Apr 18 07:23:08 "Bad luck, but we really can't take away one of the essential parts of all bars just to accomodate your want for a game of darts in a smoke-free environment. I'd say get a darts-board and invite your friends over." Well your say is moot because every establishment is smoke-free in this state by July and every establishment in my town adopted that about a year ago =)
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 07:33:06 Nekran, the point is some bar owners have their entire life savings wrapped up in their bar. It is their private property. Just as they have to make the decisions to order the types of beer their clientèle will drink or they will lose business, they have the right to decide what kinds of clientèle they wish to serve. If I wish to run a sports bar where folks can come to watch a game of big screen TV without having to breath the smoke of others then that is the clientèle I wish to serve. If I want a bar with a pool table, a mechanical bull and loud music, it is my bar, my investment and my decision. Ask yourself, will you continue to smoke in your home after you get married and have a baby or will you go outside to smoke for the next 18 to 20 years until your child moves out of the house? Some communities want to make it against the law to smoke in *your own home* if a child is present. Would you accept such an invasion of your privacy? Would you allow cameras to be installed in your home so the authorities could monitor you? Of course that is the extreme but, IMHO, even prohibiting smoking in all bars regardless of what the owner wants is extreme and it is way over the top.
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 08:12:33 I totally agree with that HR, but I think restaurants and bars are a different matter. I understand the need for some legislation. After all it is a democracy and a majority of the people were being constantly screwed over. Now there's a guarantee for options. And in fact we have some douchebag politician who wants to make it child-abuse to smoke in front of kids. I doubt he'll get it through, but that'd mean I've been abused all my life. Might get me some mitigation if I ever wind up in court some day lol Patently absurd though obviously... and in principle I do agree with you. But democratically speaking it was very understandable for a majority to push through some laws that would guarantee them smoke-free places to go. They are taking things way too far now though. And they're largely getting away with it too :(
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 08:44:59 Nekran - After all it is a democracy and a majority of the people were being constantly screwed over. How were they being screwed over? By entering an establishment where their opinions were *not* welcome? Where they wanted everyone in the bar to give up their pleasures for the sake of the non-smoker? What if the shoe were on the other foot and the majority were smokers and they passed a law stating that anyone who entered a pub or rode on a bus or had any interaction with the public in anyway were *required* to smoke? Nekran - Now there's a guarantee for options. Not for those who want to smoke in bars and restaurants, or even the bar owner who is a smoker. He now must leave his own property and go outside to smoke. Even after closing time in inclement weather because his establishment is required by law to be smoke free. These people have *ZERO* options, except to stay home or go outside to smoke. Not Fair. Nekran - But democratically speaking it was very understandable for a majority to push through some laws that would guarantee them smoke-free places to go. That is where you go astray. If someone works hard and risks their capital to open a bar it is their private property. Private Property is not, morally, subject to majority rules. There can be no rational justification for that. The majority in a democracy is nothing more than having the biggest gang. Your 'majority' has now made it impossible for a 'minority' smoker to go out to *ANY BAR* for a quiet, or rowdy, evening of drinks and smoking. The majority has run roughshod over the minority. As for restaurants, when I smoked one of my favorite times to light up was right after the meal as I was having a last cup of coffee. That was an important part of the meal for me. No one has that right anymore, regardless of what establishment they choose to frequent.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 08:58:46 Forget 'Majority Rules' for a minute. Let's talk about fairness. To be 'FAIR' for everyone all establishments open to the public should have three options. They should be allowed to decide what kind of establishment they want to be and they should be allowed to post a conspicuous sign at each of their public entrances. 1) THIS IS A SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT. 2) WE OFFER SMOKING AND NON-SMOKING SECTIONS FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE. 3) THIS IS A NON-SMOKING ESTABLISHMENT. NO SMOKING PLEASE. There you have a freedom of choice. In a rational society you have no right to walk into a smoking establishment and order everyone to extinguish their cigarettes because you don't like it. You do have the right, however, to go next door to the the bar/restaurant that prohibits smoking.
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 18 09:39:42 HR you keep going on about bars, about which I am in full agreement with you. The restaurants were another thing though... also I don't agree with a place being a private property rendering it exempt from the law that is decided by democratic rule. But I totally understand people being thoroughly annoyed by all the restaurants having been smoking places for years and years. There was no smoking-prohibited next door restaurant. I understand there are laws about health-standards for a restaurant... even if it is someone's private property. I agree with making part of this health-standard a guarantee for a smoke-free zone as much as I agree with the laws that don't allow all sorts of toxins in my food. I don't agree when it comes to bars though. We go there to consume poison to begin with, so it obviously needs less rigorous health-standards than a restaurant. Hence let the owners decide (because prohibiting smoking is obviously always an owner's option). Also the argument about forcing people to smoke is absurd... smokers not being able to smoke somewhere are not nearly harmed by that as much as non-smokers being forced to smoke. But I'l lsay it once more: I am in agreement with you when it comes to the bars. We just have different reasons for our beliefs.
Seb Member	Sat Apr 18 09:59:41 habebe: Actually, Snus is more harmful. Rather than giving you lung disease etc. it goes straight as mouth cancers and that thing where it eats into your palate.
Hot Rod Member	Sat Apr 18 12:53:20 Nekran - HR you keep going on about bars, about which I am in full agreement with you. I'm not talking about just bars and restaurants. I'm talking about any business be it a department store, bookstore, coffee shop, hardware store or any business. The owner or Board of Directors should be the ones to set policy. Nekran - Also the argument about forcing people to smoke is absurd... smokers not being able to smoke somewhere are not nearly harmed by that as much as non-smokers being forced to smoke. Of course it is but, IMHO, forcing everyone in one group to give up something for the sake of the larger group is just as absurd. Democracy should have nothing to do with how private property should be used. As I said earlier, "If people would put as much effort into protecting the rights of all individuals as they put into finding ways to take away the rights of others for their personal convenience, this would be a better world."
NeverWoods Member	Sat Apr 18 13:04:58 "Actually, Snus is more harmful. Rather than giving you lung disease etc. it goes straight as mouth cancers and that thing where it eats into your palate." Seb that is BS.
Seb Member	Sat Apr 18 13:28:25 Ah, I stand corrected. The risk of oral cancer is higher, cancer overall is lower. It's still not good for you.
NeverWoods Member	Sat Apr 18 13:38:19 "The risk of oral cancer is higher, cancer overall is lower." Do you have any links to a cancer case that is directly related to snus.(not snuff or chewing tobacco) " It's still not good for you." Neither is the air you are breathing.
Seb Member	Sat Apr 18 13:42:45 Neverwoods: Is there a difference between snus and snuff/chewing tobacco?
habebe Member	Sat Apr 18 16:41:34 Seb, Very little, I myself was curious because I kept getting coupons for Camel Snus (I smoked camel for years) The difference pretty much is that you don't need to keep spitting, so it is more convienent for say in office/bar use.
Nimatzo Member	Sat Apr 18 21:39:25 >>Seb Member Sat Apr 18 09:59:41 habebe: Actually, Snus is more harmful.<< Actually, it is not, Seb. Thi is displayed by the fact that tobacco related deaths are significantly lower in Sweden in comparison to the rest of of the EU. >>Is there a difference between snus and snuff/chewing tobacco?<< Yes, a major difference. Snuff/chewing tobacco is fure cured, while Snus is Steam cured, this process decreases the carcinogens in Snus dramatically. Don't get all of this wrong now, it is still bad, but not nearly as bad as cigarettes and other tobacco products. The biggest down side with Snus is that it is so fucking comfortable, just pop one in, anywhere any time. No need to go outside stand and do nothing. And you have in your mouth for so long. Quitting smoking is a breeze compared to quitting Snus. Smoking for 5 mins every hour compared to having a Snus in your mouth for 40 minutes getting constant nicotine supply.
Nimatzo Member	Sat Apr 18 21:39:58 tobacco is *fire* cured
habebe Member	Sat Apr 18 22:31:02 "Yes, a major difference. Snuff/chewing tobacco is fure cured, while Snus is Steam cured, this process decreases the carcinogens in Snus dramatically." You learn something every day, never knew that.
nhill Member	Mon Jun 27 19:07:06 ttt
Pillz Member	Mon Jun 27 19:31:25 Why ttt a thread that's like 5 years old? And banning tobacco/smoking is retarded Vapes need much heavier regulation though, regarding safe materials, for both tobacco and weed. Like were decriminalizing opiates and amphetamines left and right on state/national scales but were going to ban Vapes & cigarettes?
Habebe Member	Mon Jun 27 19:45:11 Holy blast from the past. I should get back on those adderall.
nhill Member	Mon Jun 27 22:35:51 Pillz, it's from 2009.
Pillz Member	Mon Jun 27 22:40:35 Talk about a necro
nhill Member	Mon Jun 27 22:46:54 You mean historical artifact. Made a database of all the posts in UP tonight & this was the first one that popped up in my query for Hot Rod and I conversing. I topped it in the midst of reading. Mainly wanted to test the query system (it can detect conversations between users in the latest version, so you can put in two users and see their interactions). Not a particularly proud thread to be a part of, as the discussion was pretty unremarkable. But maybe that makes it remarkable over time. :p
nhill Member	Mon Jun 27 22:49:28 It is kinda funny to see Seb mistake basic things for each other as he tends to do. And I'm still a bit of a dick back then, but at least I wouldn't comment on snus and not even know what it is, heh heh. Silly Seb ;)
williamthebastard Member	Tue Jun 28 04:26:24 Habebe and Europe is apparently an old utopian tradition, like Paramount and Israel
Habebe Member	Tue Jun 28 15:07:05 http://postimg.cc/BtjGdLqY/99938431 WTB should appreciate this.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Jun 28 16:10:49 Meanwhile if you go to Paris, everyone still smokes everywhere.
Habebe Member	Tue Jun 28 18:56:44 Cheese eating surrender monkeys.
murder Member	Wed Jun 29 06:45:19 Cheese eating tobacco smoking surrender monkeys.
Habebe Member	Wed Jun 29 09:04:04 Look at this, Murder and I are getting along. On a side note, think Im going get my fishing rods together today, its overcast and I don't feel like doing much.
Habebe Member	Wed Jun 29 09:40:11 Yo still off topic, but my bedroom smells like weed. Mind you I havnt smoked since last year, around the holidays I quit and just never went right back, even then I didnt smoke in bedroom much, usually Id step outside on the porch.
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 10:13:38 Maybe your brother-in-law was in there again
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 10:17:59 Ever thought of putting up a Wyze camera? They are like $20 and easy to use & install. Will notify you based on motion detection & video if someone is in there
Habebe Member	Wed Jun 29 10:47:13 I wouldn't mind cameras, but its not my bro in law. I have been here for one.Like since last night I was physically here. I didnt notice it until I switched the AC off, I have a fan running, and its humid so my guess is that its just a generic plant smell and the humidity is making it stronger. 2. He is dead ass broke, like my parents and me have been covering their utilities and gas kind of broke. Weed was always more my drug of choice, he is a vicious drunk, like I know plenry of alcoholics, but he normally gets like fall over, slur your words and vomit drunk EVERYDAY, I dont get how that even happens. He has been mostly sober lately occasionally getting a $2 40oz. He wants disability so bad it's sad. He got stupid drunk and picked a fight with a neighbor a few months ago, like plastic surgery and 2 weeks in the hospital drunk. Now he is trying to tell everyone about his back pain and PTSD. But it all stems from being a drunk. I couldnt tell you how many times he has fallen off his porch or ladders. He fell over getting out of his chair after his cheek replacement from the fight, split it open, passed out and when he came to swore someone beat him up again. Once we walked over to my house, leaving my sister at home, I forget what we were getting.He walks in starts yelling for my sister, I told him she isnt here, she is stayed home, he asks me "Where are we?" Mind you I literally live across street, like a 1 minute walk. Ive never seen anyone attain this level of drunk daily. I watched him eat dinner, while still having the empty plate in his hands so like 2 minutes after he ate asking if he already ate or not. Its mind boggling. I definitely want some.cameras for the garage though.
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 10:52:59 He sounds like a mess. Why doesn't she divorce him? As for the cameras, I have Wyze cameras in our garage and indoors, they have worked consistently for about 4 years now, no issues. Outside I have a more expensive monitoring system (can't remember the brand, but it's a closed circuit TV system that doesn't require Internet or power) and a couple Ring cameras (floodlight). Also a few more security features but in the interest of not making it all public...I'll shut up :p
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 10:53:56 Never know if murder or CC will try to assassinate me, gotta hold a few cards to the chest ;)
Habebe Member	Wed Jun 29 11:08:10 "He sounds like a mess. Why doesn't she divorce him?" I dont know. Even worse she enables it.
Habebe Member	Wed Jun 29 11:11:46 Ive been pushing for him to get vivitol which is a monthly injection sonhe basically cant drink. He was sober when they met. She had the bright idea to be the "cool girlfriend" and started buying him 1 6 pack a week, followed up by a beer mister for Xmas....even now, she has had opportunities and she ends up sneaking him booze. I dont get it.Shes nuts.
murder Member	Wed Jun 29 12:01:56 "Never know if murder or CC will try to assassinate me, gotta hold a few cards to the chest ;)" You'd never see it coming. :o)
murder Member	Wed Jun 29 12:03:17 "He was sober when they met. She had the bright idea to be the "cool girlfriend" and started buying him 1 6 pack a week, followed up by a beer mister for Xmas....even now, she has had opportunities and she ends up sneaking him booze. I dont get it.Shes nuts." Maybe she figures if he's sober then someone else will snatch him away.
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 12:06:40 >You'd never see it coming. Maybe not me personally, but you will be detected, monitored, and reported if you are anywhere within half a mile of the main house. Good luck! ;)
nhill Member	Wed Jun 29 12:07:37 >someone else will snatch him away. That sounds like a good thing to me, rather than having to deal with a drunk deadbeat. :P
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