Utopia Talk - Politics - Obama Wants To Raze 50 Cities

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Utopia Talk / Politics / Obama Wants To Raze 50 Cities

Real Fred
Member Fri Jun 12 19:26:37

US cities may have to be bulldozed in order to survive
Dozens of US cities may have entire neighbourhoods bulldozed as part of drastic "shrink to survive" proposals being considered by the Obama administration to tackle economic decline.

The government looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the land to nature.

Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent, concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable area.

The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer of Genesee County, which includes Flint.

Having outlined his strategy to Barack Obama during the election campaign, Mr Kildee has now been approached by the US government and a group of charities who want him to apply what he has learnt to the rest of the country.

Mr Kildee said he will concentrate on 50 cities, identified in a recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with their declining fortunes.

Most are former industrial cities in the "rust belt" of America's Mid-West and North East. They include Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Memphis.

In Detroit, shattered by the woes of the US car industry, there are already plans to split it into a collection of small urban centres separated from each other by countryside.

"The real question is not whether these cities shrink â?? we're all shrinking â?? but whether we let it happen in a destructive or sustainable way," said Mr Kildee. "Decline is a fact of life in Flint. Resisting it is like resisting gravity."

Karina Pallagst, director of the Shrinking Cities in a Global Perspective programme at the University of California, Berkeley, said there was "both a cultural and political taboo" about admitting decline in America.

"Places like Flint have hit rock bottom. They're at the point where it's better to start knocking a lot of buildings down," she said.

Flint, sixty miles north of Detroit, was the original home of General Motors. The car giant once employed 79,000 local people but that figure has shrunk to around 8,000.

Unemployment is now approaching 20 per cent and the total population has almost halved to 110,000.

The exodus â?? particularly of young people â?? coupled with the consequent collapse in property prices, has left street after street in sections of the city almost entirely abandoned.

In the city centre, the once grand Durant Hotel â?? named after William Durant, GM's founder â?? is a symbol of the city's decline, said Mr Kildee. The large building has been empty since 1973, roughly when Flint's decline began.

Regarded as a model city in the motor industry's boom years, Flint may once again be emulated, though for very different reasons.

But Mr Kildee, who has lived there nearly all his life, said he had first to overcome a deeply ingrained American cultural mindset that "big is good" and that cities should sprawl â?? Flint covers 34 square miles.

He said: "The obsession with growth is sadly a very American thing. Across the US, there's an assumption that all development is good, that if communities are growing they are successful. If they're shrinking, they're failing."

But some Flint dustcarts are collecting just one rubbish bag a week, roads are decaying, police are very understaffed and there were simply too few people to pay for services, he said.

If the city didn't downsize it will eventually go bankrupt, he added.

Flint's recovery efforts have been helped by a new state law passed a few years ago which allowed local governments to buy up empty properties very cheaply.

They could then knock them down or sell them on to owners who will occupy them. The city wants to specialise in health and education services, both areas which cannot easily be relocated abroad.

The local authority has restored the city's attractive but formerly deserted centre but has pulled down 1,100 abandoned homes in outlying areas.

Mr Kildee estimated another 3,000 needed to be demolished, although the city boundaries will remain the same.

Already, some streets peter out into woods or meadows, no trace remaining of the homes that once stood there.

Choosing which areas to knock down will be delicate but many of them were already obvious, he said.

The city is buying up houses in more affluent areas to offer people in neighbourhoods it wants to demolish. Nobody will be forced to move, said Mr Kildee.

"Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living near a forest or meadow," he said.

Mr Kildee acknowledged that some fellow Americans considered his solution "defeatist" but he insisted it was "no more defeatist than pruning an overgrown tree so it can bear fruit again".

http://www...dozed-in-order-to-survive.html

lucifer
Member Fri Jun 12 19:29:49
gotta love the logic; to save america, we have to destroy alot of it. meanwhile, theres people living on the streets, but your government would much prefer to knock down buildings, rather than just let the poor people squat in them.

why not just start civil war, and give the combatants bulldozers, just like they do in israel / palestine.

roland
Member Fri Jun 12 19:36:34
Obviously, someone didnt read the damn thing.

werewolf dictator
Member Fri Jun 12 19:51:33
this some how reminded me of marc faber cnbc interview last september..

"My friend suggested what would be much cheaperâ??go in and buy a million homes in the United States and burn them down. Because that will reduce the supply. Of course it is an economic nonsense solution, but it is as good as the Treasury's proposal," Faber quipped.

habebe
Member Fri Jun 12 19:52:33
Why don't they just re-zone? that is gaining popularity.

this idea just seems stupid.

Aeros
Member Fri Jun 12 20:33:13
Cities exist to support population. If there is no population, then there is no point to having a city.

Bushwasdabespresid
Member Fri Jun 12 21:50:17
"Obviously, someone didnt read the damn thing."

sounds like da porkulis bils

Hrothgar
Member Fri Jun 12 22:28:55
Goes back to my idea of destroying old infastructure to reduce unused supply and get rid of old junk at the same time.

I still believe the US housing market would have been better served taking half of that bailout money, buying 50+ year old properties in inner city areas and razing them. Then sell the land to developers on a first come first serve basis for redevolopment.

Same should be done in the auto industry - instead of bailing out the companies with huge loans, put that money into a program to pay nicely for 6+ year old cars at trade in, then recycle them. The nice premium would spawn more new car sales and get rid of a lot of excess vehicles.

habebe
Member Fri Jun 12 23:07:48
This is like burning crops to raise the prices.

Eikeys Ghost
Sports Mod Sat Jun 13 00:30:41
this is the first I've heard of the plan - though razing Flint isn't the worst idea in the world...

the other cities are just stupid.

But then it gets back to why the 494/694 circle in Minneapolis/st. Paul will NEVER not be under construction... There's too much money in building shit to fail.

Sam Adams
Member Sat Jun 13 01:33:39
ok i can think of a few cities we are probably better off without

Mobile, Alabama.
every other city in Alabama.
New Orleans
Newark
Every city within 10 miles of newark.
New Haven

and

Washington DC!

Sam Adams
Member Sat Jun 13 01:34:35
Medford Oregon is a pretty worthless redneck town too.

Sam Adams
Member Sat Jun 13 01:36:32
For the amount of mountains and other outdoors shit within a short drive of Medford, its unbelievable how every person in that town is fat and the "outdoors stores" sell only fishing rods and beer coolers with nascar logos on them.

mexicantornado
Member Sat Jun 13 02:16:21
Most of the south is fucking beautiful in comparison to shitty places in CA.

I have been drinking too much but I don't think Obama is going to send down the national gaurd with torches to destroy homes with people inside them.

habebe
Member Sat Jun 13 03:12:21
Sam, If thats what you think of Newark you probably don't like Pleasantville NJ either....Don't let the name fool you folks.

Dukhat
Member Sat Jun 13 03:19:56
Selection has created exurbs as the new growth center of the american economy. Old-style manufacturing jobs have been on the decline for decades and the city-centric economies of scales they required are no longer necessary.

Aeros
Member Sat Jun 13 06:43:58
Washington D.C. is a very good example. On paper, it seems a bit crime addled and low in population (about half a million, give or take) But if you include the regions that are connected by its mass transit Metro, it suddenly becomes a world class city on par with many in Europe with a population of Millions.

Nimatzo
Member Sat Jun 13 08:43:53
>>lucifer
Member Fri Jun 12 19:29:49
gotta love the logic; to save america, we have to destroy alot of it.<<

You actually have a problem with that logic? Destroying run down shitty areas to rebuild better ones? Removing dead flesh so the wound can heal? You don't get it or what?

OsamaIsDaWorstPresid
Member Sat Jun 13 08:45:51
he wants 2 replase tham wit kfc branchis

Aeros
Member Sat Jun 13 08:58:49
What is the point of having paved over regions nobody lives in? They are eye sores and drag down the development of nearby areas people DO live in.

habebe
Member Sat Jun 13 14:01:47
78Aeros, so why not disincorperate, it's not the greatest idea, but it seems better than this.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124337975286456249.html

habebe
Member Sat Jun 13 14:02:32
\iTowns Rethink Self-Reliance as Finances Worsen
By BOBBY WHITE

As the recession batters city budgets around the U.S., some municipalities are considering the once-unthinkable option of dissolving themselves through "disincorporation."

Benefits of this move vary from state to state. In some cases, dissolution allows residents to escape local taxes. In others, it saves the cost of local salaries and pensions. And residents may get services more cheaply after consolidating with a county.

In Mesa, Wash., a town of 500 residents about 250 miles east of Portland, Ore., city leaders have initiated talks with county officials about the potential regional impact of disincorporating. Mesa has been hit by a combination of the recession and lawsuits that threaten its depleted coffers, leaving few choices other than disincorporation, said Robert Koch, commissioner of Franklin County, where Mesa is located.

Two California towns, Rio Vista and Vallejo, have said they may need to disincorporate to address financial difficulties; Vallejo filed for bankruptcy protection last year. Civic leaders in Mountain View, Colo., have alerted residents that they are left with few options but to disincorporate because the town can't afford to pay salaries and services.

Incorporation brings residents a local government with the ability to raise money through taxes and bond issuances. It also gives them more control of zoning decisions and development, and usually provides for local services such as trash pickup and police as well.

Dissolving a town government, on the other hand, often shifts responsibility for providing services to the county or state. A city's unexpired contracts usually remain binding, and residents are still obligated to pay off any debt.

But long-term commitments such as pension liabilities and day-to-day services such as sewage and water can be folded into services run by the county, public-policy experts say.

Disincorporations are rare, usually resulting from population declines that leave too few residents to support the government. The most recent in California occurred in 1972, when stalled growth and political instability led Cabazon to dissolve itself, according to the California Association of Local Agency Formation Commissions. In Washington state, the last one occurred in 1965, when Elberton gave up its autonomy after 70 years, according to the nonprofit Municipal Research and Services Center in Seattle.

Today, some small municipalities are exploring the step to escape some financial burdens that have been exacerbated by the recession.

Rio Vista says disincorporating would eliminate 38 jobs and shift its sewer services to the county. Vallejo says disincorporating would end public-safety-employee contracts, which city leaders blame for pushing the city into bankruptcy.

Most talk of disincorporation appears to be exploratory, and some public-finance experts say towns may not have that option if it is being used to unload financial obligations. "This is somewhat of a legal gray area, because disincorporation was not designed to allow cities to escape financial hardship," said John Knox, a public-finance consultant with the San Francisco office of law firm Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe.

Mr. Knox, a bankruptcy consultant to Vallejo, said shifting oversight of a city's services to a county or state during the current economic environment would be a tall order. In California and many other states, the county or state must approve such a move, he said. Most counties are ailing as badly as cities, and are unlikely to readily approve a disincorporation, he said.

That isn't stopping some towns from checking into the possibility. In Mountain View, a Denver suburb with about 500 residents, sales-tax revenue has shriveled with the departure of four businesses last year, undermining its ability to pay city-government employees or to afford police and sewage service.

"We were surprised that it got this bad this quick," said Betty VanHarte, mayor of the 104-year-old city. "We have really tightened our belt and increased fees to solve some of our problems, but it's been very difficult."

Colorado recently hired public accounting and consulting firm Clifton Gunderson LLP to help Mountain View deal with its troubles. Chuck Reid, a consultant with Clifton Gunderson, said the town hopes to escape disincorporation, but its murky long-term financial outlook may make it the only option. The town could dissolve and be absorbed by the county, or merge with another nearby municipality, he said.

A group of residents of Spokane Valley, Wash., have a different motive for their campaign to disincorporate the city of 90,000 near the Idaho border: They want to keep their city's government from increasing taxes and fees that would finance construction of a modern downtown district.

The growth plans are too costly and break from the region's tradition of bucolic living, said Susan Scott, owner of Larks Storage in Spokane Valley, and one of the disincorporation campaign's planners. "Too many people are hurting from how bad the economy is doing," she said. "We just can't put up anymore with what the government wants."

Spokane Valley Mayor Richard Munson said that the city is providing services in a cost-effective manner, and that only a minority of citizens want to disincorporate.

show deleted posts

Real Fred Member	Fri Jun 12 19:26:37 US cities may have to be bulldozed in order to survive Dozens of US cities may have entire neighbourhoods bulldozed as part of drastic "shrink to survive" proposals being considered by the Obama administration to tackle economic decline. The government looking at expanding a pioneering scheme in Flint, one of the poorest US cities, which involves razing entire districts and returning the land to nature. Local politicians believe the city must contract by as much as 40 per cent, concentrating the dwindling population and local services into a more viable area. The radical experiment is the brainchild of Dan Kildee, treasurer of Genesee County, which includes Flint. Having outlined his strategy to Barack Obama during the election campaign, Mr Kildee has now been approached by the US government and a group of charities who want him to apply what he has learnt to the rest of the country. Mr Kildee said he will concentrate on 50 cities, identified in a recent study by the Brookings Institution, an influential Washington think-tank, as potentially needing to shrink substantially to cope with their declining fortunes. Most are former industrial cities in the "rust belt" of America's Mid-West and North East. They include Detroit, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Baltimore and Memphis. In Detroit, shattered by the woes of the US car industry, there are already plans to split it into a collection of small urban centres separated from each other by countryside. "The real question is not whether these cities shrink â?? we're all shrinking â?? but whether we let it happen in a destructive or sustainable way," said Mr Kildee. "Decline is a fact of life in Flint. Resisting it is like resisting gravity." Karina Pallagst, director of the Shrinking Cities in a Global Perspective programme at the University of California, Berkeley, said there was "both a cultural and political taboo" about admitting decline in America. "Places like Flint have hit rock bottom. They're at the point where it's better to start knocking a lot of buildings down," she said. Flint, sixty miles north of Detroit, was the original home of General Motors. The car giant once employed 79,000 local people but that figure has shrunk to around 8,000. Unemployment is now approaching 20 per cent and the total population has almost halved to 110,000. The exodus â?? particularly of young people â?? coupled with the consequent collapse in property prices, has left street after street in sections of the city almost entirely abandoned. In the city centre, the once grand Durant Hotel â?? named after William Durant, GM's founder â?? is a symbol of the city's decline, said Mr Kildee. The large building has been empty since 1973, roughly when Flint's decline began. Regarded as a model city in the motor industry's boom years, Flint may once again be emulated, though for very different reasons. But Mr Kildee, who has lived there nearly all his life, said he had first to overcome a deeply ingrained American cultural mindset that "big is good" and that cities should sprawl â?? Flint covers 34 square miles. He said: "The obsession with growth is sadly a very American thing. Across the US, there's an assumption that all development is good, that if communities are growing they are successful. If they're shrinking, they're failing." But some Flint dustcarts are collecting just one rubbish bag a week, roads are decaying, police are very understaffed and there were simply too few people to pay for services, he said. If the city didn't downsize it will eventually go bankrupt, he added. Flint's recovery efforts have been helped by a new state law passed a few years ago which allowed local governments to buy up empty properties very cheaply. They could then knock them down or sell them on to owners who will occupy them. The city wants to specialise in health and education services, both areas which cannot easily be relocated abroad. The local authority has restored the city's attractive but formerly deserted centre but has pulled down 1,100 abandoned homes in outlying areas. Mr Kildee estimated another 3,000 needed to be demolished, although the city boundaries will remain the same. Already, some streets peter out into woods or meadows, no trace remaining of the homes that once stood there. Choosing which areas to knock down will be delicate but many of them were already obvious, he said. The city is buying up houses in more affluent areas to offer people in neighbourhoods it wants to demolish. Nobody will be forced to move, said Mr Kildee. "Much of the land will be given back to nature. People will enjoy living near a forest or meadow," he said. Mr Kildee acknowledged that some fellow Americans considered his solution "defeatist" but he insisted it was "no more defeatist than pruning an overgrown tree so it can bear fruit again". http://www...dozed-in-order-to-survive.html
lucifer Member	Fri Jun 12 19:29:49 gotta love the logic; to save america, we have to destroy alot of it. meanwhile, theres people living on the streets, but your government would much prefer to knock down buildings, rather than just let the poor people squat in them. why not just start civil war, and give the combatants bulldozers, just like they do in israel / palestine.
roland Member	Fri Jun 12 19:36:34 Obviously, someone didnt read the damn thing.
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Jun 12 19:51:33 this some how reminded me of marc faber cnbc interview last september.. "My friend suggested what would be much cheaperâ??go in and buy a million homes in the United States and burn them down. Because that will reduce the supply. Of course it is an economic nonsense solution, but it is as good as the Treasury's proposal," Faber quipped.
habebe Member	Fri Jun 12 19:52:33 Why don't they just re-zone? that is gaining popularity. this idea just seems stupid.
Aeros Member	Fri Jun 12 20:33:13 Cities exist to support population. If there is no population, then there is no point to having a city.
Bushwasdabespresid Member	Fri Jun 12 21:50:17 "Obviously, someone didnt read the damn thing." sounds like da porkulis bils
Hrothgar Member	Fri Jun 12 22:28:55 Goes back to my idea of destroying old infastructure to reduce unused supply and get rid of old junk at the same time. I still believe the US housing market would have been better served taking half of that bailout money, buying 50+ year old properties in inner city areas and razing them. Then sell the land to developers on a first come first serve basis for redevolopment. Same should be done in the auto industry - instead of bailing out the companies with huge loans, put that money into a program to pay nicely for 6+ year old cars at trade in, then recycle them. The nice premium would spawn more new car sales and get rid of a lot of excess vehicles.
habebe Member	Fri Jun 12 23:07:48 This is like burning crops to raise the prices.
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Sat Jun 13 00:30:41 this is the first I've heard of the plan - though razing Flint isn't the worst idea in the world... the other cities are just stupid. But then it gets back to why the 494/694 circle in Minneapolis/st. Paul will NEVER not be under construction... There's too much money in building shit to fail.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jun 13 01:33:39 ok i can think of a few cities we are probably better off without Mobile, Alabama. every other city in Alabama. New Orleans Newark Every city within 10 miles of newark. New Haven and Washington DC!
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jun 13 01:34:35 Medford Oregon is a pretty worthless redneck town too.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jun 13 01:36:32 For the amount of mountains and other outdoors shit within a short drive of Medford, its unbelievable how every person in that town is fat and the "outdoors stores" sell only fishing rods and beer coolers with nascar logos on them.
mexicantornado Member	Sat Jun 13 02:16:21 Most of the south is fucking beautiful in comparison to shitty places in CA. I have been drinking too much but I don't think Obama is going to send down the national gaurd with torches to destroy homes with people inside them.
habebe Member	Sat Jun 13 03:12:21 Sam, If thats what you think of Newark you probably don't like Pleasantville NJ either....Don't let the name fool you folks.
Dukhat Member	Sat Jun 13 03:19:56 Selection has created exurbs as the new growth center of the american economy. Old-style manufacturing jobs have been on the decline for decades and the city-centric economies of scales they required are no longer necessary.
Aeros Member	Sat Jun 13 06:43:58 Washington D.C. is a very good example. On paper, it seems a bit crime addled and low in population (about half a million, give or take) But if you include the regions that are connected by its mass transit Metro, it suddenly becomes a world class city on par with many in Europe with a population of Millions.
Nimatzo Member	Sat Jun 13 08:43:53 >>lucifer Member Fri Jun 12 19:29:49 gotta love the logic; to save america, we have to destroy alot of it.<< You actually have a problem with that logic? Destroying run down shitty areas to rebuild better ones? Removing dead flesh so the wound can heal? You don't get it or what?
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Sat Jun 13 08:45:51 he wants 2 replase tham wit kfc branchis
Aeros Member	Sat Jun 13 08:58:49 What is the point of having paved over regions nobody lives in? They are eye sores and drag down the development of nearby areas people DO live in.
habebe Member	Sat Jun 13 14:01:47 78Aeros, so why not disincorperate, it's not the greatest idea, but it seems better than this. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124337975286456249.html
habebe Member	Sat Jun 13 14:02:32 \iTowns Rethink Self-Reliance as Finances Worsen By BOBBY WHITE As the recession batters city budgets around the U.S., some municipalities are considering the once-unthinkable option of dissolving themselves through "disincorporation." Benefits of this move vary from state to state. In some cases, dissolution allows residents to escape local taxes. In others, it saves the cost of local salaries and pensions. And residents may get services more cheaply after consolidating with a county. In Mesa, Wash., a town of 500 residents about 250 miles east of Portland, Ore., city leaders have initiated talks with county officials about the potential regional impact of disincorporating. Mesa has been hit by a combination of the recession and lawsuits that threaten its depleted coffers, leaving few choices other than disincorporation, said Robert Koch, commissioner of Franklin County, where Mesa is located. Two California towns, Rio Vista and Vallejo, have said they may need to disincorporate to address financial difficulties; Vallejo filed for bankruptcy protection last year. Civic leaders in Mountain View, Colo., have alerted residents that they are left with few options but to disincorporate because the town can't afford to pay salaries and services. Incorporation brings residents a local government with the ability to raise money through taxes and bond issuances. It also gives them more control of zoning decisions and development, and usually provides for local services such as trash pickup and police as well. Dissolving a town government, on the other hand, often shifts responsibility for providing services to the county or state. A city's unexpired contracts usually remain binding, and residents are still obligated to pay off any debt. But long-term commitments such as pension liabilities and day-to-day services such as sewage and water can be folded into services run by the county, public-policy experts say. Disincorporations are rare, usually resulting from population declines that leave too few residents to support the government. The most recent in California occurred in 1972, when stalled growth and political instability led Cabazon to dissolve itself, according to the California Association of Local Agency Formation Commissions. In Washington state, the last one occurred in 1965, when Elberton gave up its autonomy after 70 years, according to the nonprofit Municipal Research and Services Center in Seattle. Today, some small municipalities are exploring the step to escape some financial burdens that have been exacerbated by the recession. Rio Vista says disincorporating would eliminate 38 jobs and shift its sewer services to the county. Vallejo says disincorporating would end public-safety-employee contracts, which city leaders blame for pushing the city into bankruptcy. Most talk of disincorporation appears to be exploratory, and some public-finance experts say towns may not have that option if it is being used to unload financial obligations. "This is somewhat of a legal gray area, because disincorporation was not designed to allow cities to escape financial hardship," said John Knox, a public-finance consultant with the San Francisco office of law firm Orrick, Herrington & Sutcliffe. Mr. Knox, a bankruptcy consultant to Vallejo, said shifting oversight of a city's services to a county or state during the current economic environment would be a tall order. In California and many other states, the county or state must approve such a move, he said. Most counties are ailing as badly as cities, and are unlikely to readily approve a disincorporation, he said. That isn't stopping some towns from checking into the possibility. In Mountain View, a Denver suburb with about 500 residents, sales-tax revenue has shriveled with the departure of four businesses last year, undermining its ability to pay city-government employees or to afford police and sewage service. "We were surprised that it got this bad this quick," said Betty VanHarte, mayor of the 104-year-old city. "We have really tightened our belt and increased fees to solve some of our problems, but it's been very difficult." Colorado recently hired public accounting and consulting firm Clifton Gunderson LLP to help Mountain View deal with its troubles. Chuck Reid, a consultant with Clifton Gunderson, said the town hopes to escape disincorporation, but its murky long-term financial outlook may make it the only option. The town could dissolve and be absorbed by the county, or merge with another nearby municipality, he said. A group of residents of Spokane Valley, Wash., have a different motive for their campaign to disincorporate the city of 90,000 near the Idaho border: They want to keep their city's government from increasing taxes and fees that would finance construction of a modern downtown district. The growth plans are too costly and break from the region's tradition of bucolic living, said Susan Scott, owner of Larks Storage in Spokane Valley, and one of the disincorporation campaign's planners. "Too many people are hurting from how bad the economy is doing," she said. "We just can't put up anymore with what the government wants." Spokane Valley Mayor Richard Munson said that the city is providing services in a cost-effective manner, and that only a minority of citizens want to disincorporate.
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