Utopia Talk / Politics / Schumer: We should sacrifice E. Eur...

Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 14:56:31 ...and the Caspian to the Soviets. ---- "First, we must treat Russia as an equal partner when it comes to policy in the Caspian Sea region, recognizing Russia's traditional role in the region. Second, we must offer to make Russia whole if it joins in our Iranian boycott and forgoes trade revenues with Iran. That will cost the U.S. roughly $2 billion to $3 billion a year, about what we spend in Iraq each week. Third, we should tell Mr. Putin we will cease building the ineffective antinuclear missile defense sites in Eastern Europe in return for him joining the boycott. Two years ago, under NATO auspices, Poland, the Czech Republic and Romania agreed to build an antimissile defense site to thwart the threat of a nuclear missile attack by Iran. The threat is hypothetical and remote, and the Bush administration's emphasis on pursuing the antimissile system, without Russia's cooperation, still baffles many national security experts. It also drives Mr. Putin to apoplexy. The antimissile system strengthens the relationship between Eastern Europe and NATO, with real troops and equipment on the ground. It mocks Mr. Putin's dream of eventually restoring Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe. Dismantling the antimissile site, economic incentives and creation of a diplomatic partnership in the region ? in exchange for joining an economic boycott of Iran ? is an offer Mr. Putin would find hard to refuse." Tuesday, June 3, 2008 http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121245110938939473.html
worcester Member	Fri Aug 22 17:05:56 Chucky should go back to starting bank runs and leave the foreign policy to his betters. What a moron.
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:08:46 Wow, so apparently Iran is such a massive threat that it is worth sucking off Putin to get his help with them? That's laughable.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:11:19 And in exchange for giving up Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, the only thing Schumer wanted from Putin was sanctions against Iran. Schumer is also one of Obama's largest supporters. Keep that in mind.
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:12:48 Wasn't he originally a Clinton supporter? Either way, stupid stupid stupid.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:13:17 Telling it like it is. What is the purpose of that missle shield anyway? Protecting Poland from Iran?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:13:46 "Wasn't he originally a Clinton supporter?" Yeah. As soon as Clinton failed though he proceed to attach his mouth to Obama's dick. He was on The Daily Show a couple of days ago, you would have thought that Obama was the greatest politician of the last 100 years from the way he was speaking.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:14:19 "for giving up Eastern Europe " How would that give up Eastern Europe? Would they be expelled from NATO?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:14:20 CrownRoyal thinks that supporting Russia's imperialist plans for Eastern Europe is "telling it like it is."
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:15:02 CR, you support bending over and letting Putin run all over Europe in return for his support on Iran? "Second, we must offer to make Russia whole if it joins in our Iranian boycott and forgoes trade revenues with Iran." What do you suppose "make Russia whole" means?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:15:46 For the illiterate CR: "It mocks Mr. Putin's dream of eventually restoring Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe." This statement is very clear. According to Schumer, making it clear that Russia's days of dominating Eastern Europe are over is bad thing.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:15:59 "As soon as Clinton failed though he proceed to attach his mouth to Obama's dick. " Well, party should indeed come first. Better than these old Hilary supporters, backstabbing Obama for sport, Democratic party be damned.
Hood Member	Fri Aug 22 17:16:12 "you would have thought that Obama was the greatest politician of the last 100 years from the way he was speaking." to be fair, how many good politicians have there been?
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:16:53 "This statement is very clear. According to Schumer, making it clear that Russia's days of dominating Eastern Europe are over is bad thing. " Sure, sure. How is that possible if they remain NATO members?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:18:37 "to be fair, how many good politicians have there been?" Just name any politician better than Jimmy Carter; that's the number of politicians better than Obama.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:18:50 "CR, you support bending over and letting Putin run all over Europe in return for his support on Iran? " Let me clue you in on something here - Putin already has Europe by the balls, check out their energy suppliers. He aint military attacking NATO members.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:19:32 So again, anybody knows the purpose of that missle shield?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:19:50 "Sure, sure. How is that possible if they remain NATO members?" If we have appeasers like Schumer running our government...
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:19:59 If we show Putin that we're willing to bend over in return for his support, he might very well attack NATO members, who aren't nearly as likely to respond in any strong way without America's backing.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:23:43 "If we have appeasers like Schumer running our government... " Yes, a NY Senator can do it if only he recruits Obama. Stfu, will ya. Nobody is talking about expelling Eastern Euros from NATO. "If we show Putin that we're willing to bend over in return for his support, " Well, that is why I am asking, what are you giving up here? How are you bending over? What is the value of that missle defence system in Poland?
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:24:53 If you actually read the original post, you'll note that we aren't only giving up the missile defense system. We're allowing Russia to assume its "traditional" role in the region, which is that of overlord.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:26:00 Obama is the closet thing to a pacifist that the presidency has seen in years. It wouldn't be difficult at all to convince him to do nothing if Russia overran eastern Europe. You are such a dumbass and an Obama hack that you can't even see this. Stupid Canuckistani/wannabe American.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:26:18 "We're allowing Russia to assume its "traditional" role in the region, which is that of overlord. " What does it mean? Like the US is an overlord of Canada, Mexico and Guatemala, for example?
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:27:20 Um, no.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:28:37 "Obama is the closet thing to a pacifist that the presidency has seen in years. It wouldn't be difficult at all to convince him to do nothing if Russia overran eastern Europe. " Yeah, like other pacifists. Truman with Berlin, Ike with Hungary, LBJ with Prague, Carter with Assfagistan and Reagan with Poland. Swing and a miss, Rugina.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:32:16 "Truman refused to use force to break Stalin's Berlin blockade. Ike refused to intervene when the Butcher of Budapest drowned the Hungarian Revolution in blood. LBJ sat impotent as Leonid Brezhnev's tanks crushed the Prague Spring. Jimmy Carter's response to Brezhnev's invasion of Afghanistan was to boycott the Moscow Olympics. When Brezhnev ordered his Warsaw satraps to crush Solidarity and shot down a South Korean airliner killing scores of U.S. citizens, including a congressman, Reagan did -- nothing. These presidents were not cowards. They simply would not go to war when no vital U.S. interest was at risk to justify a war. Yet, had George W. Bush prevailed and were Georgia in NATO, U.S. Marines could be fighting Russian troops over whose flag should fly over a province of 70,000 South Ossetians who prefer Russians to Georgians. " P. Buchanan http://atarchive.gotdns.org:8080/UtopiaForums/ boardthread?id=politics&thread=197&time=1219401130957
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:32:56 "Yeah, like other pacifists. Truman with Berlin, Ike with Hungary, LBJ with Prague, Carter with Assfagistan and Reagan with Poland. Swing and a miss, Rugina." This post doesn't even make any fucking sense. I'd try to respond but I'm can't even tell what you're trying to argue. Are you drunk or something?
yankeessuck123 Member	Fri Aug 22 17:33:56 CR, do you know what a pacifist is?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:34:50 lol, so now Russia invading fully sovereign countries is now the same as the USSR interfering in what were already satellite nations? You're just as bad as Hot Rod when it comes to unequal analogies.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:39:48 "This post doesn't even make any fucking sense. I'd try to respond but I'm can't even tell what you're trying to argue." the point is - there is nothing you can do, or should do, when it comes to Georgia. As for the other states, already NATO members, nobody is overrunning them. Removing that missle shield, (nobody could tell me the purpose of it, btw) =! as surrendering E.Europe to Putin.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:42:37 If Poland, a sovereign nation, and the USA, a sovereign nation, wish to cooperate on a purely defensive military system why should any other nation have a say in it?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:43:19 "or should do" We should have gotten Russia to get the fuck out of an affair that was none of their business. "As for the other states, already NATO members, nobody is overrunning them." If we have appeasers like Schumer influencing policy...who knows. "(nobody could tell me the purpose of it, btw)" The purpose has been clearly stated hundreds of times here and millions of times elsewhere. Not our fault if you're too retarded to remember. "=! as surrendering E.Europe to Putin." First off, it's !=, not =!. Secondly, Schumer goes beyond removing the missile shield when he explicitly says (do I need to quote him yet again?) that Russia's view that it should dominate Eastern Europe again is legitimate.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:44:23 "CR, do you know what a pacifist is? " Yeah, I do. And it ain't the guy who said that he would attack Pakistan, like Obama did. "If Poland, a sovereign nation, and the USA, a sovereign nation, wish to cooperate on a purely defensive military system why should any other nation have a say in it? " Ah, so the value of that shield is in "Because we can"?
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:44:27 Schumer is a dumbshit, always has been.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:45:14 "Ah, so the value of that shield is in "Because we can"? " The value of the missile defense system is that it prevents missiles from landing in cities.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:46:28 "We should have gotten Russia to get the fuck out of an affair that was none of their business. " And you should be good looking. But it ain't happening, its a sad reality I know. "If we have appeasers like Schumer influencing policy...who knows. " Stop lying. "The purpose has been clearly stated hundreds of times here and millions of times elsewhere. Not our fault if you're too retarded to remember. " Gotcha. Still no puropse. "Secondly, Schumer goes beyond removing the missile shield when he explicitly says (do I need to quote him yet again?) that Russia's view that it should dominate Eastern Europe again is legitimate. " Yes, he is saying that this is Russia's view. So?
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:46:56 "The value of the missile defense system is that it prevents missiles from landing in cities. " Iranian missles in Polish cities?
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:47:34 The origin of the missiles is irrelevant.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:48:03 There is no reason for Russia to be threatened by a purely defensive missile system.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:48:06 ROFL.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:48:44 I'll take that as an admission of defeat.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:49:28 "The origin of the missiles is irrelevant. " Why not put a battery in Wellington NZ? The origin of missles is irrelevant.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:51:57 This is almost too easy... So what you are suggesting, CR, is that the missiles are in Poland because Poland is threatened by its neighbors? This would certainly be a legitimate reason for a defense treaty with a larger, more powerful nation.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:54:04 "So what you are suggesting, CR, is that the missiles are in Poland because Poland is threatened by its neighbors? " i don't know why the missle are in Poland, I keep asking, nobody seem to have an answer. I am not against the missle shield but at least put it in Israel or something. Why Poland?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:55:58 http://sen...7/10/071028-missileshield2.jpg
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:56:11 Israel has a nuclear deterrent. Poland does not. Israel has military superiority over its neighbors, Poland does not. Israel is also not in the flight path of any missile launched from a nuclear power at the United States. Poland is. Basically, putting an ABM system in Israel would be stupid.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 17:57:58 So, this missle shield is to protect Poland fro rogue states like Iran or NK?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:58:46 The Israeli missile shield is to be linked with the European missile shield for maximum protection. Israel's US missile shield While Israel appears the beneficiary of US interests in the Middle East region, its place is ultimately as one pillar under a US strategic umbrella, writes Galal Nassar During his visit to the US last month, Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak announced that Washington would soon link Israel to two advanced missile detection systems that would strengthen Israel's preparedness against any Iranian threat. Following his meeting with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates, Barak also announced that Israel and the US were at an advanced stage in talks on upgrading Israel's Arrow-II ballistic shield, though they disagreed over whether it should incorporate an American interceptor missile. He told reporters that Washington would also increase Israel's access to its Defence Support Programme (DPS) satellites that can detect missile launches, adding that the US and Israeli governments "see eye to eye on the need to keep all options on the table, though we may not agree on each and every detail. It's important the Americans understand our position, and I think that they understand it a lot better after this visit." Click to view caption Missiles The Pentagon has also agreed to install a powerful radar system in Israel in the coming months. Israeli officials described the system as capable of tracking an object the size of a baseball from about 4,700 kilometres away; it would enable Arrow to engage an Iranian Shehab-3 ballistic missile about halfway through what would be its 11 minute flight to Israel. According to Al-Ahram Weekly sources, after heavy pressure on the part of the Israeli defence minister, Washington agreed to include Israel in the US global satellite defence system, capable of spotting missile launches on a constant rather than per-request basis. They also said that Israel has been seeking assurances of logistical support from Washington in the event that the Israeli army is forced to launch an assault. In addition, Washington will help finance and upgrade the Iron Dome antiballistic shield, which will strengthen Israel's protection against Qassam missiles, and it will also finance a new phase in the Arrow project. The new Arrow III antiballistic system would be capable of shooting down missiles at greater atmospheric heights. Informed sources told the Weekly that all these secret talks, arrangements and agreements ultimately aim to include Israel in the American missile shield. The following attempts to substantiate this on the basis of developments that occurred over the past few months. THE US EMERGENCY PLAN: When Israel obtained the US-made Theatre High Altitude Area Defence System (THAAD) recently, people began to wonder whether this was a prelude to assimilating Israel into the US antiballistics defence umbrella, which has become a major bone of contention between the US and Russia. Tensions between Moscow and Washington recently intensified over this issue when the latter revealed that it planned to install some of the system's components in areas near the Russian border (the X-Band radar system in the Czech Republic and 10 interceptor missile launching pads in Poland). Russian officials protested that these plans threaten to revive the Cold War. One of the major focuses of the joint US-Israeli military manoeuvres in March 2007 was on how to protect Israeli air space from a potential missile assault carrying unconventional (nuclear, chemical or biological) warheads fired by Iran, Syria or Hizbullah, separately or simultaneously. The manoeuvres took place at a time of heightened speculation over an immanent US or Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear installations which would probably trigger Iranian retaliatory missile strikes against Israel. Also at the time there were fears of an outbreak of hostilities between Syria and Israel over the Golan Heights where Israel had recently staged massive military manoeuvres. The joint US-Israeli manoeuvres, codenamed Juniper Cobra, brought together Israel's air defence artillery brigade and the US army corps' 69th air defence artillery brigade. The exercises were conducted using computer simulated missile attack scenarios, due to the logistical situation following Israel's 2006 war on Lebanon and the redeployment of US forces. The next Juniper Cobra exercise in 2009 will be conducted using live-fire missiles. The focus of the exercise was to integrate the use of the US army's Patriot missiles and the Israeli army's Arrow missile defence system, each of which is designed to intercept missiles at different altitudes. Also, for the first time, the exercise included the THAAD system. The purpose of the manoeuvres was to test how Israeli antiballistic systems would respond in the event of a missile attack, as well as the interoperable capacities of the communications, command and control systems of the two countries in the event of a missile threat from a hostile country in the Middle Eastern region. Major Peggy Kageleiry, US army public affairs officer for Juniper Cobra 2007, said that despite the limitations of 2007's exercise, the computer simulation proved valuable in advancing the primary purpose of Juniper Cobra, which is to improve the allies' ability to cooperate against common threats. "The more we train together and exchange ideas, the readier we'll be in any future scenario that may require joint or coalition operations," she said. She explained that these manoeuvres are part of an American emergency plan to defend Israel from missile attacks that involves combining the medium- and long-range antiballistic defence systems of both countries. THE WORLD'S BEST SHIELD: THAAD is now a key component of America's global Theatre Missile Defence (TMD) system aimed to provide area-wide protection for American forces, fleets and bases in such regions as the Middle East, the Gulf, Central and Southern Asia, and Southeast and Eastern Asia. It is not to be confused with the National Missile Defence (NMD) system that is meant to furnish global protection for the US mainland. Washington has already put components of its TMD system in place in Alaska, Britain, Norway, Denmark and, more recently, the Czech Republic and Poland. Hungary and Bulgaria are soon to come. The idea is to erect missile defence shields around Russia and around China and North Korea. THAAD was introduced to furnish more extensive coverage for American military locations, population centres and strategic targets and was designed to intercept missiles with ranges from 100 to 2,000 kilometres and at altitudes of 150 kilometres. One of the advantages of this system is its ability to down enemy missiles in the final phases of its flight before they can reach their targets. It also reduces the number of missiles needed to engage low altitude targets. It is little wonder that Israel was keen to obtain this system following its war on Lebanon in July-August 2006 during which Hizbullah fired dozens of low- altitude Katyusha missiles across the border onto Israeli towns and settlements without Israeli forces being able to intercept them. The THAAD system consists of a mobile missile launcher that fires interceptor missiles equipped with computerised sensors capable of differentiating between real and hostile targets. It also depends on ground/air transportable radar linked with a command and control centre, which gives the entire system unprecedented manoeuvrability. A THAAD battery could consist of three to six missiles each capable of carrying six to eight interceptors. The Pentagon hopes to complete deployment of this system in various parts of the world by the end of the year. The costs from research and development to full deployment will exceed $23 billion over a 20-year period. The system has been put through more than 30 test trials, in light of which refinements have been made to the small explosive warhead fitted onto THAAD missiles. The Ballistic Missile Defence Organisation (BMDO) believes that THAAD is the only system capable of forming the heart of a theatre of operations missile defence system. When it is fully deployed, it says, it will be able to contend with all ballistic missile threats both within and outside of the earth's atmosphere. This will apply in particular if deployed within the framework of a comprehensive plan that brings onboard the advanced Patriot (Pac-3) missile, which Israel also has its eye on. With THAAD, the Patriot system, and its own Arrow system, Israel, together with the US, will have the most sophisticated antiballistic defence system in the world. INCLUDING ISRAEL: On 17 May, the US House of Representatives approved an allocations bill of $25 million to continue to produce and upgrade Arrow, the US-funded missiles that Israel produces using American "star wars" technology in the framework of the strategic partnership between the two countries. Under this programme, the US army is entitled to a quota of the product that comes off the Israeli assembly line in order to add it to the American system. Another $135 million was approved for the purchase of THAAD, plus $1 million for continuing the development of the antiballistic missile system -- known as David's Sling -- that is under development for countering projectiles such as Hizbullah's Katyusha rockets. Israeli military officials told the Debka website ( www.debka.com.il ) that the US and Israeli systems will be fully integrated by 2013, towards which end the US will invest an additional $1 billion on top of the $2.8 billion it has already invested. On 19 May 2007, then-Israeli defence minister Amir Peretz stated that he hoped that David's Sling would be ready in two years. In other words, until at least 2010, Israel will remain unprotected from Hizbullah's Katyushas, Hamas's Qassam missiles and mortar attack. On the other hand, Israel will be armed with the most superior shield available for fending off Iranian and Syrian ballistic missile threats. As Debka points out, this system will consist of three levels: - The Arrow system for intercepting incoming missiles at high altitudes. - The THAAD system to screen broad areas such as cities, airfields, battle arenas or military installations. - Patriots to snag the missiles that dodge the first two levels. The last round in the Juniper Cobra joint training programme was intended as a first field test of the integrated counter-missile units. Its success in the Negev was confirmed in US Congressional approval of appropriations for continuing the programme. Yet, if Israel positions itself into becoming an integral part of the American missile shield being put in place to protect American bases in Western Europe and the Middle East, this could have a profound impact on Israel's strategic position. By filling a front-line role in a system planned for Poland, the Czech Republic and other Eastern European countries, Israel will be perceived as siding with the US against Russia in a power struggle over influence and oil and gas markets in the Middle East and Central Asia, a contest that is already being referred to in the West and in Russia as "Cold War II". Russian Prime Minister Putin has made his opposition to the deployment of a US antiballistic missile system in Eastern Europe a cardinal foreign policy issue, and he has made it abundantly clear that if the Americans press ahead with their plan for stationing NMD components there, Russia will not hesitate to develop a missile system capable of overriding it. Russia already possesses some impressive weaponry that it could upgrade, notably its multiple warhead Topol-M, each warhead of which could be equipped with a computerised tracking scrambler to avoid US antiballistic missiles. In all events, if Russia sees Israel as an integral part of the US system, it could supply Iran and Syria with weaponry designed to neutralise the Israeli antiballistic network. Israel may have no alternative but to merge into the American system if it wants to obtain an advanced antiballistic system. However, Israel and the West view the matter differently. In the US, Europe and Russia, the American system is the subject of widespread public controversy. In Israel, public opinion is still wondering how the repercussions of these developments will not only affect the security of Israel but its very existence. Many are asking themselves whether the Israeli army, after having been equipped with these US- made antiballistic systems, will really be able to protect Israeli cities from intensive missile bombardment from Iran, Syria, Hizbullah and/or the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. ISRAEL'S SYRIAN FEAR: What Israel fears most is the prospect of Moscow supplying Damascus with the Iskander-E ground-to-ground missile, with a range of 200 kilometres, pinpoint precision and the ability to evade trackers. According to Israeli military experts, if the Syrians obtained missiles of this sort they could deliver surprise attacks on Israeli air force bases and antiballistic missile positions. But the Syrians already possess some hardware that has aroused Israeli anxieties. On 1 February, Israel Radio 10 announced that, in the middle of January 2007, Syria had successfully tested an upgraded Scud-D with a range of 700 kilometres, and therefore is capable of threatening every corner of Israel. With the many improvements the Syrians introduced into its guidance system and warhead capacity, the Scud-D is a much more precise and sophisticated missile. The radio report revealed that Arrow system radar had picked up and tracked the Syrian missile, and that components for it had been imported from North Korea while the remaining parts were produced in Syria with the assistance of North Korean experts. The Scud-D is 11 metres long, is driven by a liquid propellant and has a deviation factor of only a dozen or so metres. The 2007 test was the third since 2000-2001. Israeli strategists estimate that Syria currently possesses around 200 Scud-B's, 60 Scud-C's and the new Scud-D, and they fear that if Damascus also acquires the Iskander-E Syrian missile power will become an existential threat to Israel. Israeli military planners are also of the opinion that a future war between Syria and Israel will not take place on land in the occupied Golan Heights but rather in the air, through an exchange of missile fire. Although reminiscent of the war against Lebanon in July 2006, Syrian missile capacity in a missile war would be 10 times greater than Hizbullah's was, capable of reaching greater depths inside Israel, and much more precise and destructive, especially if Syria uses the missile barrage strategy. Under this strategy, Syria would unleash a torrent of missiles simultaneously, counting on the probability that the US-supported Israeli defence system would only be able to intercept 10 to 15 per cent of the assault missiles. The rest would then reach their targets causing enormous human and material losses. Israeli experts predict that the Israeli government could not possibly sustain the political fallout from such an assault even if the Israeli army turned its full air power (630 fighter planes and 250 Jericho missiles) against strategic and civilian targets in Syria. Moreover, according to the Israeli sources, the odds in favour of Syria, in the eventuality of a missile exchange, are improved by the fact that Iran would most likely intervene with its Shehab-3 missiles to deliver coordinated strikes against Israeli targets, while Hizbullah would chip in from Lebanon, targeting towns and settlements in northern Israel. Although Israeli military intelligence experts believe that Syrian military strategy is defensive and retaliatory, they nevertheless wonder if and when Damascus will shift to an offensive footing. Could there come a time when Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad would feel that Syria's defences are solid enough and its forces strong enough to mount an offensive against Israel? Might he decide to capitalise on the US quagmire in Iraq, the shaky position of the current administration at home and the aversion in the US to a new military adventure in the region, as well as on the weakness of the present government in Israel at a time when the Israeli military is still licking its wounds from the setback in Lebanon in 2006 and the onslaught of short-range missile fire from Hizbullah during that engagement? Israeli military intelligence also reports that Syria is continuing to supply Hizbullah with advanced weaponry, including hundreds of land-to- land anti-tank missiles and ground-to-air anti- aircraft missiles that can be carried on the shoulder and that are replacing ones Israel destroyed in the last war. They add that cooperation between Hizbullah, Syria and Iran has grown stronger over recent years and that it is unlikely that this tripartite alliance will rupture in the near future, even if Syria entered comprehensive peace negotiations with Israel, by means of which Israel hopes to use the return to Syria of the Golan Heights in order to wean Syria away from Iran and from its support of Hizbullah and what it deems radical Palestinian factions. Indeed, Israeli military intelligence believes that relations between Damascus and Tehran are likely to grow even closer as Syria becomes more dependant on Iranian oil in view of the prospect of the depletion of Syrian oil reserves in five years. In addition to concrete strategic indicators, Israeli intelligence experts point to the sharpening tenor of resistance rhetoric in the Arab world and among radical and terrorist organisations in particular. Such groups are increasingly of the conviction that their problems with Israel will never be resolved at the negotiating table, a strategy Egypt and Jordan have opted for. Rather, what will be required is violent confrontation, not necessarily all at once or massive, but at least in the form of continued and sustained attrition, using Katyusha, Qassam and other such missiles. At the very least, this strategy would sap Israel politically, economically, socially and militarily, even if it took many years, as was the case following the Israeli unilateral withdrawals from South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. Military strategists go on to observe that in both these areas militant organisations -- Hizbullah in South Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza -- took control following the departure of Israeli forces and soon obtained advanced missile weaponry superior to what they had before the Israeli withdrawals. Experts further predict that this is precisely what will happen following the inevitable withdrawal of US forces from Iraq, where extremist and terrorist organisations, such as Al-Qaeda, the Mahdi militias and the Badr Brigade, are certain to exploit the vacuum created by the withdrawal. Military intelligence simultaneously believes that while Israeli deterrent power is gradually weakening it has not yet reached the stage that would inspire others to risk military action against Israel. In fact, they add, the Israeli deterrent factor is still strong due to the superiority of the Israeli air force and to the Israeli army's intensive drive over the past year to rehabilitate itself. ISRAEL'S MISSILE DILEMMA: Nonetheless, Israel's foremost security dilemma, which was cast into relief during its last war against Lebanon, is its vulnerability to missile bombardment. During that engagement, Hizbullah demonstrated that its missiles could reach beyond towns and settlements in northern Israel to targets in central Israel, such as Natanya, Haifa and Bisan. Moreover, the Israeli antiballistic defence system at the time (a combination of Hawk, Patriot and Arrow missiles) proved incapable of intercepting any of the 3,000 missiles that soared into Israel in July and August 2006. Nor did Israeli aerial bombardment succeed in making a dent in Hizbullah's missile delivery capacities, for which reason the Lebanese resistance movement was able to sustain an ongoing missile barrage throughout the war. Aggravating Israel's vulnerability is the relatively small size of the country itself and the fact that its strategic locations are concentrated into even smaller areas along the coast and in the centre of the country. In addition, Israeli strategists are worried by the new threat from Iran's Shehab- 3 missiles. As a result, Israel is no longer vulnerable only to missile fire from neighbouring countries, such as Lebanon and Syria, but also from Iran, a threat that would probably materialise in the event of a US and/or Israeli strike against Iranian nuclear facilities. In order to confront this mounting ballistics threat, Israel believes that entering under the umbrella of the American antiballistic shield, in both its TMD and NMD components, would supply it with the protection it needs. To pave the way for this goal, Israel linked its early warning centre in south Tel Aviv with the American one in Colorado Springs and with US Central Command in Qatar. If an American military satellite picks up on any missile launch, the warning signal will be transmitted to the US and American centres simultaneously. Also to enhance its early warning capacities Israel launched its seventh in a series of reconnaissance satellites. The satellite is equipped with highly sophisticated cameras that can capture items as small as a few centimetres wide at altitudes ranging between 200 and 500 kilometres. Weighing only 300 kilogrammes, it is the only existing satellite that combines lightness with precision. Horizon 7, as it is called, is expected to strengthen the US-Israeli partnership in information exchange. As part of its drive to become part of the NMD, Israel is also seeking to obtain an airborne laser (ABL). Another antiballistic missile system that US air force command has been developing, this one operates on the principle of generating enough energy on a machine carried aboard a Boeing 747, for example, to produce a laser beam strong enough to knock out an offensive missile before or just after being launched. Before this, Israel tried to purchase a similar system designed for use against low altitude missiles such as Katyusha rockets. It also entered into negotiations with the American TRW firm that produces another laser-firing antiballistic missile system called THEL-M. As for antiballistic missile technology, Israel has already obtained Sky Guard -- a device that combines an antiballistic missile launcher plus anti-missile machine guns and that can be mounted on a truck. The Israeli military attach in Washington, Major-General Dan Hariel, recently acknowledged that it would take some time to develop a system capable of fending off Katyusha and similar short-range missiles. However, he added, Tel Aviv is pioneering efforts to develop a sophisticated integrated system for this purpose. In view of Israel's relatively heavy reliance on warplanes to take out hostile missile units in enemy territory before they can be moved and redeployed, it has been trying for years to obtain the most state-of-the-art American military aircraft, including models that the US air force may not have used yet, such as the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). In fact, Israel has been involved for some time in the JSF development programme, which is the largest military aircraft development programme to date. Initially, the US had refused to allow Israel to take part in this programme for fear that it would leak the technology to China, as occurred during the joint US- Israeli collaboration in the production of the Falcon radar and the Patriot missile defence. But such is the power of the Zionist lobby over Congress that the US administration caved in and lifted its ban against Israeli participation in the JSF programme. According to a broadcast on Israeli army radio, the Israeli air force may purchase around 100 such fighter planes that are expected to come into service before 2015. In addition, the Israeli army's website magazine reported that Israeli and US air force commanders have already reached an arms deal, codenamed the "Next Generation", in accordance with which the US would supply Israel with F35s or F-22s. According to Israeli Ministry of Defence sources, weapons experts are currently comparing the two models in order to determine which Israel should purchase. They say that the experts still prefer the F-22 that the US has already put into operation. Both models are highly manoeuvrable, have a powerful assault capacity, can remain airborne for long periods of time and can perform reconnaissance missions, all of which features would come in handy in a possible war against Iran. Israel is only one of the secondary partners in the JSF development programme. There are eight others: Britain, Canada, Italy, Holland, Turkey, Australia, Denmark and Norway. In February 2003, Israel signed a letter of intent in accordance with which it pledged about $50 million in order to participate in producing a family of assault aircraft for the American air force. The aircraft will range from conventional take-off and landing models to vertical or short- distance take-off and landing models that are particularly required by the US and British navies. In its 10-year military development programme, Israel plans to phase out its approximately 250 F-16s, which have formed the backbone of the Israeli air force for more than a quarter of a century, and to phase in a more advanced model, which will probably be the F-22. ISRAEL AS A US TOOL: From the US perspective, Israel's participation in the NMD stems from US concerns in the Middle East, which occupies a central place in its antiballistic shield programme. Because of the vast scale of this programme, the US has been looking for partners in various parts of the globe in order to raise financial and political support as well as to obtain permission to deploy components in the territory of these partners. Because of the US's interests in the Middle East and the centrality of this region to the NMD, it is possible to see why US administrations over more than a decade have been keen to bring Middle East countries onboard. Washington has set its hopes in particular on the countries of the Gulf Cooperation Council, Egypt, Jordan and Israel, for which reason US secretary of defences during their tours of the region have repeatedly echoed the refrain of the dangers of the proliferation of ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction in and around the region, and the need for better coordination in early warning and intelligence sharing between the US and its friends in the region. By linking Israel and Arab countries to this system, the US is seeking to forge a defence bloc for the so-called "New Middle East" that the Bush administration had envisioned following its invasion and occupation of Iraq. It is precisely because of this that Arab countries have refused to take part in the NMD, preferring instead to obtain their weapons (such as the Patriot Pac-3) within the TMD framework. In this context, we must not overlook the significance of Israel's moves to join in NATO tasks after NATO approved raising the level of relations and joint military exercises with Israel. Israel's aim is clearly to develop closer military cooperation with NATO so that, by working together with NATO and other allied forces, it will be able to benefit from joint manoeuvres and assessment activities. Israel has made it clear, however, that it will not take part in NATO peacekeeping missions in Afghanistan and Kosovo. http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2008/911/focus.htm
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 17:59:10 It's not just about Poland, shitbag. It's about Europe in general.
Milton Bradley Member	Fri Aug 22 17:59:17 The missile shield has multiple purposes. It will protect Europe from rogue states. It will protect US military installations in Europe from rogue states. And it will protect Poland and Europe and the US from Russian missiles.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:01:38 MB, I'd recommend not discussing this topic with CR anymore. The purpose of the missile shield is well-known; he is just wasting thread space "debating" it.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:02:23 "And it will protect Poland and Europe and the US from Russian missiles. " You are an idiot. There is no missle shield that can protect anybody from thousands of Russian missles with multiple warheads. Get a clue. No rogue states will attack Europe, thats your dumb imagination. NK doesn't have missles to reach Europe, Iran might have two or three, but I must have missed Ahmadinejad's speech claiming that Poles opress Palestinians or something. What an idiot.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:03:19 "Rugian Member Total Posts: 200 Fri Aug 22 17:59:10 It's not just about Poland, shitbag. It's about Europe in general." Learn to read, cocksucker.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:03:43 "It's not just about Poland, shitbag. It's about Europe in general. " Aww, Rugina cares about Europe. Even Slavs? Filthy Slavs, as you like to point out?
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:05:08 crownroyal Member "No rogue states will attack Europe, thats your dumb imagination." You learn to read, twat.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:05:16 Certain Slavs have their uses. Of course, the world would be better off if they had been entirely killed, but that retard Hitler fucked it up.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:05:45 European countries have already been attacked, dumbass.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:05:50 "Certain Slavs have their uses. Of course, the world would be better off if they had been entirely killed, but that retard Hitler fucked it up. " Translation - "I am a retard"
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:06:18 "European countries have already been attacked, dumbass. " And missle shied would have saved them, retard?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:07:17 The bombings are proof that European countries ARE targets. If missiles are fired at Europe there should be some sort of way to prevent their impact. Is this really so hard for a goddamn idiot like yourself to understand?
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:09:34 "The bombings are proof that European countries ARE targets. If missiles are fired at Europe there should be some sort of way to prevent their impact. Is this really so hard for a goddamn idiot like yourself to understand? " No, dickwad. Most bombings, like London and Madrid were done by homegrown terrorists, no shield will protect you from those. What rogue state has fired ballistic missle into Europe?
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:11:19 So now, according to drunken CR logic, if the enemy hasn't used a certain method of attack yet, they will never use it. What a fucking moron. I'm glad that even the Canuckistani military would never hire your dumb ass.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:12:51 "So now, according to drunken CR logic, if the enemy hasn't used a certain method of attack yet, they will never use it. What a fucking moron. " So now, according to Rugina logic, Europe should prepare for aliens attack. What a retard. Oh and a missle shield in Poland would have prevented Londod subway bombing. Kill yourself, cretin.
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:14:30 " if the enemy hasn't used a certain method of attack yet," LOL @ "enemy". They were British citizens, no?
crownroyal Member	Fri Aug 22 18:16:44 Fucking moron. Anyway, I gotta go to cottage. Have a good night, Rugina.
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 22 18:17:52 "So now, according to Rugina logic, Europe should prepare for aliens attack." Wow, that alcohol must be stronger than even Crownroyal. An alien attack is just as likely to happen as a missile attack by a rogue state or a rogue part of a national military. Sure. Goddamn idiot. "They were British citizens, no?" They were Muslims.
Dick Swinger Member	Fri Aug 22 19:40:17 What he's ready to offer Russia would probably be a good thing. Its worth a lot more to Russia than hes demanding in return though.
murder Moderator	Sat Aug 23 06:46:26 "Second, we must offer to make Russia whole if it joins in our Iranian boycott and forgoes trade revenues with Iran." Schumer is Jewish
crownroyal Member	Sat Aug 23 21:18:37 "An alien attack is just as likely to happen as a missile attack by a rogue state or a rogue part of a national military. Sure. Goddamn idiot. " That is your theory, moron, not mine. Rugina - ""So now, according to drunken CR logic, if the enemy hasn't used a certain method of attack yet, they will never use it." Clearly, clearly the enemy is about to hire alien mercs. "They were Muslims. " Ah, I see now. I was missing this retarded clarity of yours. You wanna defeat homegrown British terrorists, you want to make sure they don't blow up London tube?? Build a missle shield in Poland. I think I got it now. Seriously Rugina, kill yourself.
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 23 21:25:48 ^product of Canuckistani public education
crownroyal Member	Sat Aug 23 21:26:09 ^on her period
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 23 21:27:24 ^wishes I was a woman for what can only be disturbing reasons
crownroyal Member	Sat Aug 23 21:28:09 You are not a woman??
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 23 21:29:34 You sound disappointed. Sorry.
crownroyal Member	Sat Aug 23 21:30:55 All right then, I'm going for out a cig. Nice to talk to you, Rugina, as always.
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 23 21:32:16 I hope you develop lung cancer. Enjoy that cig.
master bates Member	Sat Aug 23 21:33:20 If you'd been in the Uk you'd probably have said you were going out for a fag. That could have been awkward.
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Sat Aug 23 22:06:12 Whats fuckin dumb is all the idiots, author included, who are missing this important fact: east europe isn't ours to give away.
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 23 22:12:19 No, but we have the power to effectively abandon them to their fate, as Schumer suggested.
murder Moderator	Sun Aug 24 07:45:13 "Wow, so apparently Iran is such a massive threat that it is worth sucking off Putin to get his help with them? That's laughable." ys: I repeat ... Schumer is a Jew. As far as he's concerned, protecting Israel trumps EVERYTHING. "What do you suppose "make Russia whole" means?" ys: It means paying the Soviets for lost trade revenue. Jewmer not only wants to surrender Eastern Europe, he wants to pay the Soviets to take it too. "How is that possible if they remain NATO members?" CR: Georgia is a US ally ... and you, Jewmer & Bush have all agreed to allow the Soviets to invade and dominate them with impunity. THAT is how it's possible.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 09:06:05 Huh? How is it possible if they remain NATO members? You having troubles understanding today?
muppet say i svog New Member	Sun Aug 24 10:14:34 Tuesday, June 3, 2008"First, we must treat Russia as an equal partner when it comes to policy in the Caspian Sea region doesn't seem equal strong partners now do they? who stronger in august in caspian u think? "What do you suppose "make Russia whole" means?" means writer is dumb Mr. Putin's dream of eventually restoring Russian hegemony over Eastern Europe. also means writer is dumb ukraine is rushian prodigious son leave them alone and they will come home wagging tails behind them.just dont let prodigious son join soros berezovsky nato cult poisoning against own family of culture, history, religion. nato cult only wants ukraine as dagger against rushia they not west loved kin. quite brainwashing them it will make them crazy even if rushia federation don't interfere. baltics need to be bullied so they don't treat rushians like niggers and kaliningrad too.rest of east europe can go finnlandize or swisserlandize itself just don't put west europe armies here aiming at rushia. jews remember 6 million holocaust scaring children at bed time story and adults still scared in back of brain. rushians remember 20 million dead wwii kaiser napoleon i napoleon iii british charles xii pidulsky white coalition before peter poland and turks every other year. germans guilt understand, don't make rushia paranoid. us and uk don't understand,,, when they ever brutally invaded?west europe still thinks rushians are niggers too and rushians know it. So, this missle shield is to protect Poland fro rogue states like Iran or NK? its well north east to iran trajectory with london and paris. rome forget about it. may be ''not in my back door'' for germans czechs hungary slovaks etc but first look seems nonsense. may be dream of blocking all rushian missiles. may be just fuck rushain limited nuclear war doctrine. limited nuclear war doctrine balances conventional imbalance. limited nuclear war doctrine unpredictable enough without missile shield of unknown reliability making more unpredictable. may be most lies to make missile companies cash and restart cold war and make military companies more money. ps i am not svog or what ever i am werewolf
MuRDeR Moderator	Sun Aug 24 10:25:17 "Huh? How is it possible if they remain NATO members? You having troubles understanding today?" How is it possible that Georgia was invaded and occupied if they were allied to the US? The answer is simple ... alliances ain't worth spit if your "allies" decide it's less trouble to let you get overrun. There's nothing magic about the NATO alliance. It is after all full of Frenchmen, appeasers and us.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 10:28:09 "How is it possible that Georgia was invaded and occupied if they were allied to the US? " How many times I should say, "NATO members" till you understand, really? "There's nothing magic about the NATO alliance. It is after all full of Frenchmen, appeasers and us. " Well, there must be something about it, might not be magic, but Soviets, Russians or any other non-NATO state never attacked a NATO member.
MuRDeR Moderator	Sun Aug 24 10:34:21 Yet
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 10:35:08 Wow that was sage. Yeah, yet.
MuRDeR Moderator	Sun Aug 24 10:37:44 The soviets hadn't invaded a for Soviet state and US ally ... until they did. So yeah, yet.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 10:39:40 Call me when this contradicts anything I said.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 10:42:13 Come to think of it, I think Putin will get the hell out of Georgia pretty soon, and never threaten anybody ever again. He hasn't done it .. yet. But that doesn't mean that he won't.
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Sun Aug 24 10:43:04 Here's a concept: Let the Ossetians decide their fate, instead of having Russia annex or Georgia ethnically cleanse.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 10:44:54 "Let the Ossetians decide their fate, instead of having Russia annex or Georgia ethnically cleanse. " Better than sending NATO forces to die for these Osetians who want to be a part of Russia.
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Sun Aug 24 10:54:45 NATO forces = another word for Americans.
crownroyal Member	Sun Aug 24 13:11:25 "NATO forces = another word for Americans. " Mostly, but not always. Seems like every day there is yet another funeral here, for canucks killed in Kandaghar.
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