Utopia Talk / Politics / Healthcare: a right!!!

habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:43:56 People called me crazy and radical to say Obama is a Marxist. Many didn't even think he was an extreme radical left winger. I now ask you UPers, if thats not radical leftwing marxism, what is it? I'm all for helping out people who need it, I give up my winter weekends as I have for about 4 years to collect money for the Salvation Army. I also (as Conservative as I am) beleive that in a nation as wealthy as we are that in good times, we can help people get basic health care, preventative care. I do not though want to pay for a ciggarette smoking alcoholic who lives on junk food LEACH's health care. Thats absurd, free flu shots or whatnot? ok, that serves a greater good of preventing the spread of disease. But this is a PRIVILEGE, not a guaranteed right like that of freedom of expression or the right to self preservation. Life is hard, as it always has been, what is wrong with this nation that people feel entitled to everything and yet don't want to lift a finger to earn it as they should. If only lighting were distributed more fairly maybe we'd be in a better place. Am I so wrong? what the fuck is wrong with this picture?
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Oct 08 23:45:51 "People called me crazy and radical to say Obama is a Marxist." Because you are. Do you know what Marxism even is? "Many didn't even think he was an extreme radical left winger." He's not, not by any objective measurement. He may even be right of center on an international scale.
habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:48:59 "He's not, not by any objective measurement. He may even be right of center on an international scale. " He has been considered the the farthest left wing senator in the current Congress. "Because you are. Do you know what Marxism even is?" He may not come out and say "i'm a commie", but redistribution of wealth. The State controlling the economy more and more. The state GUARANTEEING excessive priveliges, these are the words of a communist pig.
habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:50:07 Don't get me wrong, McCain isn't any prize either. The world would be a better place with both of them gone.
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Oct 08 23:51:28 "He has been considered the the farthest left wing senator in the current Congress." Yes, and that still does not make him far left, or even moderate left, not on an international scale. Example: http://politicalcompass.org/uselection2008 And you have no idea whatsoever what Marxism is, very clearly.
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Oct 08 23:52:34 "Similarly, Obama is popularly perceived as a leftist in the United States while elsewhere in the west his record is that of a moderate conservative. For example, in the case of the death penalty he is not an uncompromising abolitionist, while mainstream conservatives in all other western democracies are deeply opposed to capital punishment. The Democratic party's presidential candidate also reneged on his commitment to oppose the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. He sided with the ultra conservative bloc in the Supreme Court against the Washington DC handgun ban and for capital punishment in child rape cases. He supports President Bush's faith-based initiatives and is reported in Fortune to have said that NAFTA isn't so bad. Despite all this, some angry emailers tell us that Obama is a dangerous socialist who belongs on the extreme left of our chart."
habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:53:59 He preaches class warfare constantly. How these "big bad fatcats" from Wall street are hurting Main street. He may not use the terms proletariat and burgiouse (sp). But evil never walks around and says it's evil, it chooes a form more pleasing to the eyes and ears.
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Oct 08 23:54:47 *sigh* Open your eyes, please. The dude isn't a commie, even if you want him to be. There's plenty of other stuff you can attack him for.
habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:56:17 "Yes, and that still does not make him far left, or even moderate left, not on an international scale. " He is not running for President of the world. He is runing for President of the US. Someone else posted his plans for a Socialist citizen army. He is not going to come out and sa it all at once. Like the frog in hot water.....
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Oct 08 23:58:12 I'm not going to continue arguing with someone who is hellbent on being wrong. It's like trying to convince Kreel that the government did not shoot missiles at the WTC. Try to take an objective look at the situation. He's not a communist, he's not a Marxist. He is a noob who has flopped on some important decisions. Go after him there.
habebe Member	Wed Oct 08 23:59:10 "Open your eyes, please. The dude isn't a commie, even if you want him to be. There's plenty of other stuff you can attack him for." You may be used to Socialism. You say he isn't a hardcore commie on in international scale. But the "dude" is a minimum an extreme radical.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 00:00:46 Then what is he per say in your "international veiw"? a moderte Conservative? not where I come from.
Hellfire Member	Thu Oct 09 00:06:02 " do not though want to pay for a ciggarette smoking alcoholic who lives on junk food LEACH's health care. " You realize that when that arsehole goes into the Emergency room we're going to have to treat him anyways, right?
Chen Member	Thu Oct 09 00:08:02 If you're paying for health insurance your premiums are already higher from the deadbeats that use the ER as a walk in clinic.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 00:14:41 "You realize that when that arsehole goes into the Emergency room we're going to have to treat him anyways, right? " Well, if it's a true emergency (life or death, as well as serious injury) I can support that. As much as it leaves a dirty taste in my mouth because assholes will abuse it. "If you're paying for health insurance your premiums are already higher from the deadbeats that use the ER as a walk in clinic. " I know, which is why I support changing such systems. Possibly similar to how car insurance works, if you have high tort, you can sue for higher amounts of money in malpractice. if you have less, then you should be more limited.
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 09 00:18:15 "He preaches class warfare constantly. How these "big bad fatcats" from Wall street are hurting Main street." mccain should run attack ads with this message, with good timing
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 00:19:46 The OR should not be a lottery for deadbeat give me give me ass holes. As well as true malpractice cases where someone paid for a service and was grossly cheated should be corrected.If you pay nothing, why should you get money for a fucked up job? you get what you pay for, HC costs wouldn't be NEAR what they are, and they wouldn't if people abused the system less.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 00:23:14 WD, It's the POLITICIANS that are hurting main street by allowing this BS bailout. Let the banks fall, that IMO would be a fair punishment for them fucking up. The Market is sink or swim.
river of blood Member	Thu Oct 09 01:07:28 I hope McStain AND Obama BOTH get elected and do some ass to mouth porn style tag team raping of the US.
roland Member	Thu Oct 09 01:23:22 "He preaches class warfare constantly. How these "big bad fatcats" from Wall street are hurting Main street. " Funny, that McCain and Palin both blame the greed of wall street for the crisis.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 01:28:46 "Funny, that McCain and Palin both blame the greed of wall street for the crisis. " Roland, Did I say they were right? I think they are wannabe populist assholes. Still, they don't appear to be as horrible as Obama. I'm probably going to vote for a giant douche instead of a turd sandwhich.
roland Member	Thu Oct 09 01:31:11 "Did I say they were right?" You said that make him far left. ROFL
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 01:34:06 Roaland, What? I'm not sure what your saying exactly. But I did not call McCain a far lefter. I wouldn't call him far right either.
roland Member	Thu Oct 09 01:42:14 YOu said Obama is far left based on how he has blamed the Wall Street fatcat for the crisis. And McCain and Palin is doing the same too.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 01:44:16 "YOu said Obama is far left based on how he has blamed the Wall Street fatcat for the crisis. And McCain and Palin is doing the same too. " Not soley on that issue. I listed several reasons. Personally I don't beleive that JM beleives that either, but it's good for campaigning.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 01:46:51 I could be wrong. he could beleive that, but it just seems more logical that he either doesn't really know or like I said he is lieing for campaigning reasosn.
Real Fred Member	Thu Oct 09 01:52:06 I'd rather chip in on some other americans healthcare than chip in on killing innocent people halfway across the planet.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 01:59:04 "I'd rather chip in on some other americans healthcare than chip in on killing innocent people halfway across the planet. " I can understand that. Like I said I don't mind especially in times of prosperity of helping the less fortanate with HC. But to call it a "right" seems to imply that we should put funds there when we don't have it. In hind sight, invading Iraq was probably a bad idea. That said, even a dark cloud can have a silver lining. I also think that to just leave Iraq as is would be even worse. But were getting off topic now.
Real Fred Member	Thu Oct 09 02:03:42 It is not a moral obligation to kill people we may not like. It IS a moral obligation to help those in need that are our own.
Real Fred Member	Thu Oct 09 02:06:02 My point being that with the government robbing us of so much fucking wealth, then yes, healthcare should be a right. We pay for healthcare for those motherfuckers that take our tax money, why the fuck can't we have healthcare also?
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 02:13:42 RF, Well, that is fine, like I said I think I could support something similar to how we have varying car insurance policies (in regards to tort) My problem with calling it a right is that it would be equated with things like free speech. So if they do not deliver should we then take them court?
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 02:14:58 G2g, "Good eats" is on. Alton Brown is the man.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 02:35:22 habebe The right to health care is pretty much established in principle everywhere. You are not inventing the wheel here. It works nicely many places and provides better universal healthcare for less money than your current system costs (per capita). You can take it to court if you are refused service, or if you think the service provided is at odds with health care regulations. Happens on occasion, though nowhere nearly as often as it does in the privatized approach.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 02:40:48 Jergul, I've yet to see IMHO a good example of universal entitled HC. Perhaps I'm just ignorant in this sense, and mabey you could show me an example or two? "Happens on occasion, though nowhere nearly as often as it does in the privatized approach. " Which is why I said something like a tort limit (how much you can sue) on insurance policies. similar to US car insurance.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 02:52:55 Canadian model, Scandinavian models, UK model, German model, Iranian model, Russian model. The two first ones cost about half per capita of what the US system does. No model is perfect and always subject to funding levels. But you get more bang for buck in a universal system. You can't sue for cash, you can sue to get the service you think you are entitled to.
Dukhat Member	Thu Oct 09 03:07:18 Bush did his job. He bankrupted the government so that the democrats can't expand benefits. All they can do is try to rein in the beast and fight to keep their existing programs solvent. Yee Haw!
Dukhat Member	Thu Oct 09 03:11:38 Also getting rid of trial lawyers would cut our healthcare costs by about 25-35%. Administrative costs in American healthcare exceeds 40%. Also you lose incentives for innovation in socialized medicine. All healthcare innovation basically originates from the US. Were the US to socialize, there would be much less. Also it would bankrupt us as we can't even reign in our universal healthcare for people over 65, otherwise known as medicare (or medicaid? its been awhile). Whats most likely is mandated coverage in the forseeble future combined with tough love regulation. Efficiencies can be gained by redistributing health services where they have the greatest return, from the old to the very young, and cost control for health-spending by limiting hospital-stay for the terminal right before their death (which is when most healthcare expenses are incurred anyways).
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 03:12:03 Well, I've seen the Canadian model, and have argued against it. They seem to trade quality for quantity. They are also less compassionate then even the US model. From semi-personal experience I have a story of their HC system. A freind of the family (a man my father used to work with) was vacationing up there, he was in a bad snowmobile accident and nearly died as they refused him service (being a US citizen) until he could prove he had adequate insurance.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 03:15:48 "Also getting rid of trial lawyers would cut our healthcare costs by about 25-35%. Administrative costs in American healthcare exceeds 40%." Which is why I think limiting how much someone can sue for malpractice suits, it's ridiculous that someone who pays nothing could sue and win millions for a free service. If you have full tort car insurance you can sue in a car accident all you want pretty much. if you have very limited tort you can sue for only expenses. and obviously they hve varying degrees. Why couldn't this work for HC?
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 03:18:59 "Which is why I think limiting how much someone can sue for malpractice suits"...Is a good idea. sorry
Hot Rod Moderator	Thu Oct 09 05:11:45 There is no such thing as an 'Economic Bill of Rights.' Only charity, if you are lucky.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 05:19:59 That charity is working out pretty well for you though Hot Rod. How much do you cash each month?
Hot Rod Moderator	Thu Oct 09 05:24:08 I get a few groceries from The Food Pantry and discount rides to the grocery store and Wal-Mart. Plus I can go next door to the senior center and get a nice healthy lunch for $1.00, but I seldom do. That's it.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 05:26:39 So medicaid and social security are things you refuse to use? What pride. I am impressed.
Hot Rod Moderator	Thu Oct 09 05:50:00 I do not qualify for Medicaid. It is not charity anyway. It is a government program that returns paid taxes to the public. Social Security is not charity either. I paid my premiums all of my working life. If you think it is then I'm sure that you will admit that you are a ward of your socialist government and that you live off the charity you receive from it.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 05:55:15 "It is not charity anyway. It is a government program that returns paid taxes to the public." Nice that we have defined what is not a charity. I have no problem with that definition. Thus taxed financed universal health care is not a charity either for as long as it is "a government program that returns paid taxes to the public".
Hot Rod Moderator	Thu Oct 09 06:01:24 Exactly. However, they are socialist programs that should never have been created. But, as they have been created, whomever has paid into them deserves, and is entitled to, the benefits they provide.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 06:08:17 Hot Rod They were created to keep the old and infirm from begging in the streets once their ability to work was gone. The measure was introduced as a pay as you go system with overwhelming popular support amongst the population in general. Initially paying for those who had never put a dime into the system as it did not exist when those people paid taxes. Democracy does and will always have strong social commitments because frankly - that is what people want. Everyone wants access to healthcare and income assurance when they are too old or sick to work and no one wants to see the infirm and elderly begging in the streets.
Hot Rod Moderator	Thu Oct 09 06:57:20 jergul, I know all of that. Does not change the fact that I believe Socialism is not a good thing philosophically. Ome thing I will correct you on though is, "Initially paying for those who had never put a dime into the system as it did not exist when those people paid taxes." My father did work for The WPA and did pay into the Social Security System before he died in the early 1940's, but my mom was never able to collect a dime because dad had not earned enough 'points.' And she was a dedicated democrat all of her life and, IIRC, she even knew "BOSS" Tom Pendergast. :)
Alarmed Member	Thu Oct 09 11:58:50 habebe: You're distorting facts in order to make an ad hominem attack on Obama. Firstly, there are plenty of possible non-marxist states that give their citizens the right to health care. jergul has given you a short list, but there are many more. And here's another problem: why use the word marxist as a smear? Lets say universal health care *was* marxis; does that invalidate it? It's still a good idea. States with universal health care spend less per capita than Americans do. It's a good idea that works. Surely we should be worried about whether policies are practical, not whether or not they fit this (misapplied) notion of marxism (or any other ideology) ?
Alarmed Member	Thu Oct 09 12:02:56 The armed forces, for instance, are arguably socialist, if we're taking this (communism = total government vs (an ideal type) free market = zero government. See also state maintanence of roads, national parks, EPA, justice department... There is government 'interference' in these areas because they fucking NEED government interference! Anyone (presumably: there are some very deluded people out there) can acknowledge the importance of government providing (and us having THE RIGHT TO) a fair justice system. Why then not consider the possibility of the government providing a fair healthcare system?
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 13:59:14 "Firstly, there are plenty of possible non-marxist states that give their citizens the right to health care." That does not mean it isn't a communistic ideal. "And here's another problem: why use the word marxist as a smear?" Well thats another whole thread all to itself. "Lets say universal health care *was* marxis; does that invalidate it? It's still a good idea." Hey everyone having HC is a good intention, I admit that, I wish no one had to suffer, but guess what, in practice it has it's more than it's fair share of faults. "States with universal health care spend less per capita than Americans do." I've said time and time again the US model is broken as well, but I will say that many if not all give inferior HC. "Surely we should be worried about whether policies are practical" This is what I am arguing. "not whether or not they fit this (misapplied) notion of marxism (or any other ideology) ? " My point is that the individual is a marxist, which is a very bad/dangerous ideology. "The armed forces, for instance, are arguably socialist, if we're taking this (communism = total government vs (an ideal type) free market = zero government." First of all that is a BS arguement (no offence, but come on) 2ndly, you obviously have never heard of mercanaries. "See also state maintanence of roads" Many roads in the US are privatized and run better vecause of it. Look at the situation of our bridges, government has proven itself inneficient at many things. I do admit Government intervention is neccesary in several aspects. "Anyone (presumably: there are some very deluded people out there) can acknowledge the importance of government providing (and us having THE RIGHT TO) a fair justice system. Why then not consider the possibility of the government providing a fair healthcare system? " Rights such as freedom of speech,self preservation etc. are totally different from providing a pay service which with government prove to have more than their fair share of ineffiecencies. I've gone over that. The single biggest expenditure in the US HC system is insurance which is why I beleive in limiting pay outs for things like malpractice. If you want to sue big you should pay big thus covering the costs insted of burdening everyone.
jergul Member	Thu Oct 09 14:14:26 "That does not mean it isn't a communistic ideal." That a cow may be black, does not mean that birds cannot be black.
Alarmed Member	Thu Oct 09 14:19:24 "That does not mean it isn't a communistic ideal." This is a non-argument. I cant be bothered to explain why, it's so fucking obvious. "Hey everyone having HC is a good intention, I admit that, I wish no one had to suffer, but guess what, in practice it has it's more than it's fair share of faults." So lets talk about this instead of playing games by throwing out ridiculous ad hominems on people and policies, yeah? What are the faults, relative to the US system? It's cheaper. It gets more people covered. It is fairer. Dukhat's point about innovation is a good one, but plenty of innovation still occurs in countries with universal health care. And much innovation in medicine in a market system is trivial, as property laws lead the pharma companies towards patent generation and marketing (i.e. bribing doctors) rather than providing better drugs to the consumer for cheaper. See: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244 "I've said time and time again the US model is broken as well, but I will say that many if not all give inferior HC." Inferior in what sense? Less chance of recovery? Less accidents? You're going to need to provide some statistics here. "My point is that the individual is a marxist, which is a very bad/dangerous ideology." He isn't a marxist. Nothing you've said remotely suggests he's a marxist. And even if he was, it isn't a sufficient argument; you've still got to attack his specific policies. "First of all that is a BS arguement (no offence, but come on) 2ndly, you obviously have never heard of mercanaries." Of course it's a bullshit argument! That's my point! Fair point about the mercinaries though: Bush has been outsourcing national security (and look at the results!) "I do admit Government intervention is neccesary in several aspects. " Right. So why not health care? What makes health care fundamentally different from justice? "Rights such as freedom of speech,self preservation etc. are totally different from providing a pay service which with government prove to have more than their fair share of ineffiecencies. I've gone over that." This is almost nonsensical. They are totally different, why? And it is the private sector that is inefficient when it comes to health care.
Alarmed Member	Thu Oct 09 14:20:03 So jergul covered it. Cheers.
habebe Member	Thu Oct 09 19:42:35 "This is a non-argument. I cant be bothered to explain why, it's so fucking obvious. " Those compiled veiws show evidence of someone who has Marxist ideals at his heart, and these other nations are rather Socialistic, which lets face face it, Socialism is watered down Communism. "So lets talk about this instead of playing games by throwing out ridiculous ad hominems on people and policies, yeah? What are the faults, relative to the US system? It's cheaper. It gets more people covered. It is fairer. Dukhat's point about innovation is a good one, but plenty of innovation still occurs in countries with universal health care. And much innovation in medicine in a market system is trivial, as property laws lead the pharma companies towards patent generation and marketing (i.e. bribing doctors) rather than providing better drugs to the consumer for cheaper. See: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17244 " It does have it's up sides, no doubt. Fairer? depends on the situation, like I showed in an earlier post. (non Canuck cit.) But funny enough a new study today (well actually 2 days ago) highlights some problems with Canada's HC, although it shows signs of good improvement http://www.fraserinstitute.org/newsandevents/news/6241.aspx "WAITING YOUR TURN: HOSPITAL WAITING LISTS IN CANADA The median wait time for Canadians seeking surgical or other therapeutic treatment dropped to 17.3 weeks in 2008 from 18.3 weeks in 2007, according to new research published by the Fraser Institute. Despite the small improvement, many Canadians are still waiting 121 days or more for necessary medical treatment. However, a seven day reduction in total waiting times is far removed from the goal of providing timely access to health care, says Nadeem Esmail, co-author of the study: This year's report shows the main decrease in wait times occurred in the time between a referral from a general practitioner and consultation with a specialist, which decreased to 8.5 weeks from 9.2 weeks. The 2008 survey shows the median wait time between seeing a specialist and receiving treatment dropped to 8.7 weeks in 2008 from 9.1 weeks in 2007. Other findings: Ontario recorded the shortest total wait time (the wait between visiting a general practitioner and receiving treatment), at 13.3 weeks, a decrease from 15 weeks recorded in 2007. British Columbia had the second shortest total wait at 17 weeks, down from 19 weeks in 2007. Manitoba at 17.2 weeks was third, a decrease from the 20.2 weeks in 2007. Despite the overall decrease in national median waiting times, some provinces experienced increases in total wait times: Saskatchewan has the longest total wait time at 28.8 weeks, an increase from 27.2 in 2007. Nova Scotia jumped to 27.6 weeks from 24.8 in 2007. Newfoundland and Labrador had the third longest wait time at 24.4 weeks, up from 24.1 weeks in 2007. Source: Michael Walker, Nadeem Esmail and Maureen Hazel, "Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada," Fraser Institute, October 7, 2008." "Inferior in what sense? Less chance of recovery? Less accidents? You're going to need to provide some statistics here. " Look up a bit on the screen, I'll dig up some more NP, I've done it before. "He isn't a marxist. Nothing you've said remotely suggests he's a marxist. And even if he was, it isn't a sufficient argument; you've still got to attack his specific policies. " I am attacking this specific policy now. "Right. So why not health care? What makes health care fundamentally different from justice?" One is protecting a paid service while another is protecting non-material ideals. "This is almost nonsensical. They are totally different, why? And it is the private sector that is inefficient when it comes to health care. " How is the private sector innefficent at HC?
Alarmed Member	Thu Oct 09 22:53:23 Waiting lists? That's your problem? What's worse, having to wait for medical care or being unable to afford medical care, and put into massive debt if you ever really need it? "One is protecting a paid service while another is protecting non-material ideals." This is a dodge. What makes the ideals more worthy of government intervention relative to healthcare? Healthcare can be made in to an ideal too. We choose this shit, what is a right and what isnt: it isn't natural, it isn't set in stone. That's what this whole 'right' thing that you're complaining on is about. Why do you think the poor get government representation in court? Consider it, and then consider if the same reason might justify giving them health care too... "How is the private sector innefficent at HC?" Plenty has been written about this. Most of Europe, Israel, Japan, Australia, these countries spend nearly half of what the USA does, and manage to cover the whole population. People may have to wait for treatment, but patients are prioritized by need.
MurdeR Moderator	Fri Oct 10 03:15:56 "I do not though want to pay for a ciggarette smoking alcoholic who lives on junk food LEACH's health care." habebe: You already do. It's called emergency room care. And it's way more expensive than simply providing the poor with insurance.
master bates Member	Fri Oct 10 03:47:25 So Habebe believes the entire western world outside of the US is extreme radical left marxist. I have to wonder what the hell they're teaching you in school over there.
master bates Member	Fri Oct 10 04:10:08 You say that he's not a radical marxist leftist based on the 'fat cats' comments alone, since Mccain and Palin also point the same finger, but you can't use that at all in trying to show he's such a radical commie extremist, in that case, unless you're saying that Palin and Mccain share at least on radical marxist extremist view with Obama. Habebe, your viewpoint is skewed because you don't get to see whats outside your little Americano world. Heres the truth: The US is the most far right country on the planet. It just is. Thus, the centrist view in the US is still somewhat to the right of the centrist view of the rest of the known universe. You're somewhat to the right of the center of the US, so you're a fair bit right of the rest of mankind. Your far righties are fascists by the standards of the world, barring the standards of the most far-right country on the planet, the US. Here's your cue to ignore the relevance and just say, the rest of the world doesn't matter, I'm in the US, all that counts is the US...
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Fri Oct 10 18:52:38 "Healthcare: a right!!! " incorrect.
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Fri Oct 10 19:02:57 "People called me crazy and radical to say Obama is a Marxist. Many didn't even think he was an extreme radical left winger." He's ranked left of the 'liberal lion' Ted Kennedy. Hell Obama won't let anyone define when a fetus becomes a person, because somewhere, someday, somebody might possibly use it as a reason to try and advance an attempted challenge to Roe v. wade. Never mind that even the psycho abortion Queen of California was alright with defining a human as someone 'birthed' even after a failed abortion. Not good enough for Obama.... You all should read 'The Case against Barack Obama'. It's a great read of how much of a smarmy bastage he is... and by smarmy bastage, I really mean - 'Typical Politician'. Not anything special. Definately not the Liberal Messiah. just another Chicago Machine generated politician that knows who's ass to kiss and when. Also his Anti-American, CPUSA, and various other disturbing associations should kill this corrupt fuck once and for all.
habebe Member	Fri Oct 10 19:15:46 "Waiting lists? That's your problem? What's worse, having to wait for medical care or being unable to afford medical care, and put into massive debt if you ever really need it? " Not just waiting lists, but for high-end specialized care, the US is far better. They are sacrificing quality for quantity "habebe: You already do. It's called emergency room care. And it's way more expensive than simply providing the poor with insurance. " How many times have I posted in just this thread how we cou.ld correct alot of this through tort reform? "So Habebe believes the entire western world outside of the US is extreme radical left marxist. I have to wonder what the hell they're teaching you in school over there. " Many are Socialists, some are communist. As for the US being seen as Fascist you don't seem to comprehend the notion that right-wing and totalitarianism are not nesecarily the same.
Master Bates Member	Fri Oct 10 19:40:01 "As for the US being seen as Fascist " But thats not something I would ever say, so - huh?
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Fri Oct 10 19:54:42 "How many times have I posted in just this thread how we cou.ld correct alot of this through tort reform? " Bush tried to do this as a fix to 'health care costs'.... He was nearly laughed out of washington. What do you mean people can't sue for 50 billion dollars when they get minor non life threatening 'screw ups'. There are litterally hundreds of drugs that sound VERY close to other drugs, and with sloppy ass hand writing, its no wonder accidents happen. You didn't die or lose a limb - you shouldn't get more than a few thou, not mulit millions.
MurdeR InC Member	Sun Oct 12 04:21:29 "How many times have I posted in just this thread how we cou.ld correct alot of this through tort reform?" habebe: How the hell would tort reform lower the cost of emergency room care?
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 06:26:07 (atleast the forums are back...YAY!!) murder, ER treatment is heavily abused currently as it has been stated in this thread several times. Since insurance costs are one of the largest single (if not the largest) expense to hospitals, this would drastically drop such a burden bringing down costs for all medical treatment across the board. Also low income people would be able to afford insurance much more easily by the offers of low tort/no tort policies, just as they do with car insurance. On a personal note, my family physician almost wen out of bussiness because of insurance costs. He is still in bussiness but has had to join a "family health care center" and his care has steadily declined due to it. It's very hard to find a good D.O. as it is, now his secrataries try and play doctor, recently refusing me life sustaining medication on the basis that I've not had adequate blood work in recent times, she then asked me where I had been getting my medication all this time, when I said from her office/DR., she responded that he shouldn't have been doing so!!!!! cunt It seems to be comon sense to me, look at the car insurance issues pre tort reform and now with the reform.
MurdeR InC Member	Sun Oct 12 06:33:24 "murder, ER treatment is heavily abused currently as it has been stated in this thread several times. Since insurance costs are one of the largest single (if not the largest) expense to hospitals, this would drastically drop such a burden bringing down costs for all medical treatment across the board." Except that is not the case. Poor people without insurance get charged much higher prices for the same service as those with insurance. It's yet one more abuse of the poor. Tort reform doesn't address the problem.
jergul Member	Sun Oct 12 06:37:59 Ultimately, things like universal healthcare, universal suffrage, normalized immigration, and poverty containment measures all reflect directly on the social fabric of a nation. If you want things to work, then you need to give the population as a whole a vested interest in system viability. Marginalizing groups over time is simply a horrible idea.
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 06:42:33 "Except that is not the case. Poor people without insurance get charged much higher prices for the same service as those with insurance." Probably because they are a higher liability. They generally pay less (regardless of what they are charged) and so they are a higher liability if they have equal tort power. Tort reform does adress the problem. But Ido agree that it is an abuse of the poor, and it's not their fault, much of the blame IMHO goes towards trial lawyers and similar special interest groups. Lets say jo schmo offers to sign an agreement saying he will not sue for malpractice, he reduces the liability he poses to the hospital, thus tey don't need to charge him nearly as much to cover their ass.
Master Bates Member	Sun Oct 12 18:03:46 ""So Habebe believes the entire western world outside of the US is extreme radical left marxist. I have to wonder what the hell they're teaching you in school over there. " Many are Socialists, some are communist." Which western countries are communist?
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Sun Oct 12 19:07:42 "habebe: How the hell would tort reform lower the cost of emergency room care? " Tort reform would lower MALPRACTICE insurance costs. Crazy high for ER docs (and staff), cause there is a high chance of negative outcomes at the ER. Malpractice costs are also high for surgeons and ob/gyns. Malpractice Ins. costs for some practitioners are often more than the median salary for this country. Mostly because everyone sues for crap and expects their millions. 3rd party payers don't really get into the tort part, unless they are getting sued because of not paying/denying coverage.
Seb Member	Sun Oct 12 19:23:52 habebe: There are definitely fascist undertones in some of your far right "nationalist" republicans. The national victimhood complex... The Chenyesque tendency of a strong presedential office that does not need to be accountable to congress. The confusion of the office of President with the person holding it, such that is wrong to question "the Decider"... Take that a little further and you basically have the core principles of fascism, albeit one where you change the dictator every four years. One should not confuse Fascism with being German, believing in Aryian supremacy and shiny military boots. Thankfully such people remain a minority, but you should be pretty much aware of how off baseline they are.
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 20:15:08 "Which western countries are communist? " (except Russia, which is hardly western I admit) The nations may not be communsit, but have large support for communist parties. "There are definitely fascist undertones in some of your far right "nationalist" republicans. " Oh I'll agree to that, like this buying banks BS, FDR was rather Fascis/socialist IMHO. I'm much more of a Libertarian in my veiws, well, somewhere between Repblican Conservative and Liertarian.
Master Bates Member	Sun Oct 12 20:16:11 BS, Which western countries have large support for communism?
corkie Member	Sun Oct 12 20:19:24 Obama is a Marxist like I'm a Hindu. not.
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Sun Oct 12 20:55:15 "Obama is a Marxist like I'm a Hindu." You thinking of taking it up? As that is a better analogy... He's left of Teh Liberal Lion, Ted Kennedy, and has had fundraiser speaches for the CPUSA (Communist Party of the USA). Obama my not be a 'marxist' - but he'll be the closest thing this country has seen in the Oval Office. McCarthy is cringing.
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 20:57:29 France comes to mind, they are now down to about 5% of the vote, but even in the late 90's they had 10% of the vote and still FAIK hold almost 50 seats in government (mostly in the senate, and some in the nat. assembly). and that is just the main communist party, I don't know about the lesser ones. Also look at the European Left (a group of communist parties all across the EU)
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 20:59:13 Actually nationally in france, (I just checked) got about 9% of the vote to the comunist party of france. http://www...xists-boost-communist-vote.htm
Master Bates Member	Sun Oct 12 21:00:05 5% is not a large amountno mkatter how much you're going to pretend it is. And already we've come a far way from most Western countries being socialist or communist. Have you ever been in a Western European country?
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 21:03:13 "Obama my not be a 'marxist' - but he'll be the closest thing this country has seen in the Oval Office. " I think the more power he gets the more and more his true color (not black, but red) will begin to show more and more, we may just be seeing the tip of the iceberg currently, that is my beleif atleast. Communisim in America will not come bearing a sickle and a star , but rather draped in an American flag from the silver tongue of a of a man preaching "fairness and economic equality by outcome not by oppurtunity"
Master Bates Member	Sun Oct 12 21:04:24 You cant back up any of your claims or doomsday heavy metal prose predictions
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 21:08:09 "Hubert Prevaud obtained 12.66%/2,421 votes (versus 5.72%/911 votes in 2001 for the PCF) in the canton of Leguevin; Dominique Escouboue obtained 6.91%/1,778 votes (versus 5.68%/1232 votes in 2001 for the PCF) in the canton of Toulouse XV and Jean-Louis Ruz and Marie-Ange Papaïs obtained 14.11%/484 votes (versus 2.13%/77 votes in 2001 for the PCF) in the canton of Aspet. " I like how you pick the absolute smallest amount, lets look at the 10% nationally they took several years ago, and as this shows even higher in some areas. Even in the most recent elections nationally they took 9%, 9% of the vote is LARGE considering the largest single party takes less 30% or so Wikipedia claimes it to be the third largest party in france (by membership)
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 21:17:02 "You cant back up any of your claims or doomsday heavy metal prose predictions " Beleif, not claim. But I do agree, only time could tell.
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Sun Oct 12 21:32:43 Obama's marxist/communist ties: Bill Ayers - American Terrorist who wanted to bomb the hell out of the US. Saul Alinsky - radical community organizer He inheirted his first public office from an admirer of the USSR, and sought to secure funds and pledges from the same groups she did, some of whom identify themself as socialist and communist. He has chosen extremists as political advisors and he counts them among his fundraisers. in college he hung out with "The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist Professors, and structural feminists." Obama looked up to W.E.B. DuBois, Ralph Ellison, and James Baldwin. Alice Palmer - worshiped the USSR. A great influence mentioned in Dreams of my Father: Frank Marshall Davis - wrote on the website Political Affairs, a self-described Marxist magazine. He was a member of the Communist Party in 1951 in Hawaii. That party was funded and backed by the USSR. Richard Wright. Anthony Lake Cornel West - Calls himself a 'progressive socialist'. Robert Malley. Jodie Evans - co-founder of Code-Pink. These are only a FEW of the influeces on, and current advisors to, one Barack Obama.... He might not be an out and out Marxist, but he's definately looking at property in the neighborhood.
habebe Member	Sun Oct 12 21:35:15 "A great influence mentioned in Dreams of my Father: Frank Marshall Davis - wrote on the website Political Affairs, a self-described Marxist magazine. He was a member of the Communist Party in 1951 in Hawaii. That party was funded and backed by the USSR. " They forget to mention that he also wrote articles for "the daily worker"
Alarmed Member	Mon Oct 13 01:20:58 Ya'll are right. I want a POTUS who hasn't even met a marxist. Who doesnt even know what a marxist is! That's the only way we can be completely untainted!
habebe Member	Mon Oct 13 01:30:07 Nah, but a Pres who probably killed a few wouldn't hurt.
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 14 02:04:45 stumbled on this from catechism of the communist catholic church, ``- in keeping with the country's institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;'' ********** 2211 The political community has a duty to honor the family, to assist it, and to ensure especially: - the freedom to establish a family, have children, and bring them up in keeping with the family's own moral and religious convictions; - the protection of the stability of the marriage bond and the institution of the family; - the freedom to profess one's faith, to hand it on, and raise one's children in it, with the necessary means and institutions; - the right to private property, to free enterprise, to obtain work and housing, and the right to emigrate; - in keeping with the country's institutions, the right to medical care, assistance for the aged, and family benefits;
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 02:25:06 These are the same folks that beleive in a talking snake.
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 02:27:25 Hey do you have a cite by chance?
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 14 02:33:33 "These are the same folks that beleive in a talking snake." arent the communists supposed to be the athiests? and the catholic church are not fundamentalists. popes know perfectly there wasnt a historical talking snake. "Hey do you have a cite by chance?" http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a4.htm
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 03:12:24 "arent the communists supposed to be the athiests? " Tell that to Castro.
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 14 03:30:47 u mean the excommunicated cuban who called cuba a athiest state until 1992, when he allowed more religious freedom and called cuba secular? okay, i asked him, and he said the athiests are the marxist communists.
patom Member	Tue Oct 14 03:34:34 Not having read all of the above, I'll throw in my 2 cents. The wealthy all have health care. The poor who don't work all have health care. The workers who get health insurance at work have health care (some a lot better than others). Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people in this country who work their asses off to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, yet can't afford to pay for the high costs of health insurance. There is something wrong with this picture.
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 03:35:58 Catholicism is much like religious totalitarianism anyway, they make their rules up as they go. I don't see what the point is anyway of saying the pope supports universal HC and that it's a right, many of those EU countries (socialists) do as well.
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 03:36:54 "okay, i asked him, and he said the athiests are the marxist communists. " These are the people he supports? Like Barrack Obama? he recently just endorsed him, what a shock!
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 03:38:09 "Not having read all of the above, I'll throw in my 2 cents. The wealthy all have health care. The poor who don't work all have health care. The workers who get health insurance at work have health care (some a lot better than others). Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people in this country who work their asses off to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, yet can't afford to pay for the high costs of health insurance. There is something wrong with this picture. " I fully agree.
Eikeys Ghost Sports Mod	Tue Oct 14 09:53:37 "Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people in this country who work their asses off to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table, yet can't afford to pay for the high costs of health insurance. " This is where the LAWYERS have fucked up the system.
habebe Member	Tue Oct 14 13:35:35 Last word: Health care sucks in America and abroad. Keep the lawyers out, and Doctors should have more say. Tort reform is needed. 100
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