Utopia Talk / Politics / The opposite of Atlas Shrugged

Aeros Member	Sun Mar 04 22:15:43 Since I have been accused of hackery in another thread for mentioning this book, I'm going to reccomend it. Jack London, the Iron Heel. Set at the end of the "Second Revolution" the book itself purports to be a manuscripts written from 1912-1918 with footnotes from a scholar written 300 years later that describe the formation of "The Oligarchy". An elite class of Capitalists who successful subjugate the masses through religion and military force, making them slaves of their own labor until they are finally overthrown in a socialist revolution the year the 23rd century. The dystopian nature is very much in keeping with Rands vision, but it does it in just 100 odd pages (depending on publisher). It also has the great phrase that Rand would later plagerize, to describe Capitalism. "Laissez Faire, the let alone policy of each for himself and devil take the hindmost." Anyone who reads Rand should be required to read this book too. But alas, they rarely get the opportunity. Many States banned the book, and the Republican party has made it a point to remove it from public libraries (while giving Rand pride of place). My own copy has a big red WITHDRAWN stamped on it. It still has the stickers from the Midlands Texas library.
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 04 22:22:42 I read pretty much every London book when I was a kid. Never got to Iron Heel though.
Billah Member	Sun Mar 04 22:45:40 I read some of his books as a kid too, never heard of this one. I'd read this. Ayn Rand I have absolutely zero desire to ever read.
McKobb Member	Sun Mar 04 23:04:05 "The left was infuriated by her anti-communist, pro-capitalist politics, whereas the right was disgusted with her atheism and civil libertarianism." She's an excellent underdog.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Mar 04 23:07:33 Aryn Rand>jack london fact
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 04 23:11:08 Thats like saying Karl Marx > Tolkien. You've ever read Rand, Sam? Its tedious.
McKobb Member	Sun Mar 04 23:22:19 Rand didn't argue for capitalism so much as she argued for meritocracy. Those born as gods among men through talent/genius/ambition should be fully rewarded for their endeavors. If you want to be a burger flipper then be the damn best burger flipper on earth (she uses this example in one of her books).
river of blood Member	Mon Mar 05 00:10:43 "An elite class of Capitalists who successful subjugate the masses through religion and military force, making them slaves of their own labor" - Clearly the solution to this is an elite class of government thugs who subjugate the masses through military force making them slaves of their own labor.
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Mon Mar 05 01:09:28 Best thing Ayn Rand gave us was inspiration for the plotline of the Bioshock series.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 01:18:11 "Those born as gods among men through talent/genius/ambition should be fully rewarded for their endeavors. " the classic anti-meritocracy conservative myth. People cant become that good or bad through their conditions, theyre born that way, its fixed in nature. Youre either born elite or youre not anf if youre not you should be content with the exciting life goal of being the best at flipping a burger.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 01:19:27 Its the essence of aristocracy.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 01:21:19 and: all men are born unequal.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 01:48:59 "If you want to be a burger flipper then be the damn best burger flipper on earth (she uses this example in one of her books). " What a horrible example, such a nasty perspective. Its at the heart of slavery, racism, sexism. You were born to sweep my floors, you cant escape what you were born to do, so your moral duty is to sweep them as well as you can. Opposing this, then, becomes waging class war. I, on the other hand, was born to be wealthy and live a much more enjoyable and free life, and since I was born to do that, my duty is to enjoy myself as best as I can. Its funny how australia isnt completely criminal since they all come from 'criminal genetics.' Its funny how France arent a 3rd world country, what with them executing all their 'elite.'
Samantha Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:04:40 Some people were just born better than others. Like me. I was born a scientist and my father's great grandfather owned slaves so I have the better than other people gene.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:16:05 A human's ability is the combination of their genetics and their training. No, you can't really escape what you were born and raised to be. For example, tardfish, who grew up without really thinking, can never become a worthwile individual. Me, I suppose I should thank my parents more than anything else. My genes... are strait up mentally superior. Perhaps most importantly, they raised me to think and understand the world around me from a young age. "hey mom, how does a rocket fly" "Here son, heres 50 bucks... take your bike over to the hobby store (its 7 miles away through boston traffic, but we made you learn how to navigate already so no problems there), buy the parts to a toy rocket, assemble one, and then you'll learn how a rocket works. "dad what does a skeleton look like" well son there are some owl pellets in the back yard... assemble a skeleton from one and you'll know what a skeleton looks like. Oh... and wash your hands afterward"
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:17:11 hahaha!
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:20:36 sam thinks that USA IQ average rising 20 points in 80 years is because, in evolution, genes change that much that quickly...and yet he also the thinks the opposite at the same time, that evolution cannot exist without social darwinism...any old pacifier will do, no matter how dumb the excuses are...rofl@sam the scientist
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:20:40 It does suck that your parents did not raise you to be a thinking, and passed you on some fairly average genes, but thats not my fault. Don't blame me for your mediocrity.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:21:10 *thinker
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:24:18 so you admit you believe that all men are born unequal and that you believe in aristocracy, right? You just said that. Question: do you believe this agrees with or goes against the traditional values of the USA?
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:31:06 To a certain degree. Genetics and teaching both lead to smart families having smart children. Smart parents raise smart kids, and stupid parents raise stupid kids. That is how the world works. Given genetics and parents raising kids, there will always be an intelligent "aristocracy". Surely even a fuzzy mind like yours can see this.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:34:06 I wonder what Sam Adams would have said about believing in an aristocracy...hmmm. I suspect you would have been his enemy.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:37:44 Its amazing how the human mind can compartmentalize obvious contradictions that stare you straight in the face. For thousands of years human IQ developed slowly, and then, with democracy and liberalization in the west that brought much better living conditions and education, IQ suddenly exploded. Not only does sam think correlation==causality, he also ignores correlation completely when it doesnt suit his belief that is completely constructed around him having a great life at the expense of someone having a shitty life waiting on him. Sam the scientist lol...
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:38:15 Eventually a day may come where humans are built, not bred, and then trained in education factories much like "a brave new world". Even then you'll still have an aristocracy, because some people will have more perceived importance than others. It simply won't follow genetic families, but will follow something else.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:41:59 You dont believe in science, you believe in science fiction (based in white supremacist, elitist fascism)
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:42:25 Most of the founding fathers were in the aristocratic class. We don't like the mindless masses to learn that, so we don't teach it much, so I will forgive you for not knowing. ----------- Keep in mind the true definition of the word "liberal" is very different - opposite in some ways - from the modern political grouping.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:43:32 So you think the founding fathers were fighting for an aristocratic system, but that history doesnt teach that at schools?
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:45:07 Wait, tardfish, you disagree that genes control offspring attributes and that parents raise children? This is science fiction? Genetics and parenting are science fiction? Really?
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:45:27 why are you ignoring this and trying to look the other way? "For thousands of years human IQ developed slowly, and then, with democracy and liberalization in the west that brought much better living conditions and education, IQ suddenly exploded."
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:46:18 and why are you ignoring this? "So you think the founding fathers were fighting for an aristocratic system, but that history doesnt teach that at schools? "
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:48:43 The new system that our founding fathers created in the late 1700s certainly had some significant chunks of aristocracy remaining. They were all upper class, educated better than their fellow man. Thats why the system worked for so long. Having uneducated socialists from the plebian classes write the new rules always results in failure.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:51:57 youre ignoring the questions sam... 1. For thousands of years human IQ developed slowly, and then, with democracy and liberalization in the west that brought much better living conditions and education, IQ suddenly exploded 2.So you think the founding fathers were fighting for an aristocratic system, but that history doesnt teach that at schools? also, 3. why would you think something so stupidly unscientific as realizing that 1st world nutrition vs 3rd world nutrition will make a HUGE difference on every muscle, every organ, the entire health of the human physicality - but not the brain?
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:52:46 I am ignoring nothing. Give me time to respond, douche. During periods of democracy or psudo-democracy, such as greece, rome and modern western europe/US, intellects spiked. During the latest, certain technology also has led to intelligences spiking. Intelligence is part native genes and part education. This is all indisputable basics. Now I am off to bed, I will destroy you some more tomorrow.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:54:00 Where do you possibly get off that I think nutrition is unrelated to intelligence? Thats all part of education/training. Now, bed.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 02:54:50 And why are you ignoring this? Wait, tardfish, you disagree that genes control offspring attributes and that parents raise children? This is science fiction? Genetics and parenting are science fiction? Really?
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 02:58:47 "I am ignoring nothing. " you certainly are. You ignored the questions, and the one you didnt ignore you changed from: "were the founding fathers fighting for aristocracy?" to "were they from the aristocracy?" Guess what, even womens lib came from the aristocracy. Why? because the wives of rich, increasingly enlightened and liberalized husbands were the only ones who had the circumstances and the luxury to start questioning the norms of their culture. Rich wife in the 1800s, drinking sherry in the garden: 'Darling, I really think I should be allowed to join you and thew boys in the smoking room next time ytou discuss politics, because I think I have interesting ideas too' Poor wife in the 1800s: 'I better get to bed, its 6pm already and I have to be up 3am to harvest the beets, feed the kids, feed my husband or else get slapped about, etc etc etc' Darling
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 03:00:22 "Where do you possibly get off that I think nutrition is unrelated to intelligence? " Youre pretending its only a little bit related and mostly, IQ is fixed in stone, when the facts show a HUGE relation, an incredible explosion of IQ for the entire populace when environmental conditions are improved.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 03:02:55 If being born from the ruling class had anything like an effect as strong as environment has on IQ, the ruling classes would have been increasing at at least the same rate, 3IQpoints per decade, for thousands of years. Their IQ would have increased by 300 points each millenium...lol...
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 03:07:44 This is basically naturalized, set in stone, entitlement. I am entitled to more than you, because I was born for that and you weren't.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 03:45:04 also, theres nothing indicating any correlation between the ruling class and IQ. The history of royalty utterly disproves that. Not to mention, it would mean Obama belongs to the very smartest, as do congress, etc. Why arent the people you think are the smartest ruling the USA, if you think thats a natural evolution? How come 'dumb' people took their 'natural place'? I could go on for days listing point by point the massive flaws in your rationalizing and your excuses for your entitlement.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 03:49:39 Even your theory that the wealthy intelligent(which includes all the hillary clintons, the buffets, once again in complete contradiction to your beliefs) pass on their naturalized IQ, which all indicators show have a much, much less effect on the general populace than improved conditions fails, because as we all know, the Donald trumps (using sams framing of what is intelligence) very often dont marry and have kids with physics professors, they marry dumbass beauty pageants.
Garyd Member	Mon Mar 05 04:30:48 IQ didn't increase the avaiability of knowledge increased and by and large this happened from 1700 on inspite of the governing classes not because of them. The governing classes hated print media just as they now hate the internet. About half of what you cited is evidence against the notion that every thing in your life is fixed and you can't change it. That is the sort of defeatist clap trap socialists love because it mnakes them feel better about themselves than they ought and makes the poor dependent upon them.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 04:37:12 you fucking moron. "The average rate of increase seems to be about three IQ points per decade in the US " wiki. You are banned from debate by default, you fucking tard.
Garyd Member	Mon Mar 05 04:44:14 And that increase is almost entirely atributable to the wide spread dissemmination of information and how standardized IQ test are constructed and the scoring assumptions made in them. YOu are hereby banned from debate for you inability to see beyond the obvious.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 05:38:10 yet another anti-american values conclusion of sams aristocracy is that the american dream is fixed, naturalized, as genetically impossible to nearly the entirety of the american population. Maybe one day I'll sit down and make a 100 page list of everything that is completely incompatible in this aristocratic fantasy world pretending its not just a thin superficial veneer for racist, sexist, imperialistic, white supremacy.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 06:36:34 Aeros, I just read a review of Iron Heel. I was struck by one sentence. "The problem is that with the end of World War II and the defeat (essentially) of Fascism that London's novel was no longer of interest as the world was confronted with a new set of problems." I guess your little "bible" is considered out of date.
Pissflaps McGee Member	Mon Mar 05 08:59:56 "the book itself purports to be a manuscripts written from 1912-1918 with footnotes from a scholar written 300 years later" So the footnotes were written in 2212? How the fuck does that happen?
Pissflaps McGee Member	Mon Mar 05 09:00:58 Apparently Marty McFly wrote the footnotes.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 09:07:02 by being fiction set in the future?
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 09:09:03 Fred, I'm as happy as a pig in slop. Just found out that a 2011 500cc Royal Enfield can be had for about $5495. 85 mpg highway. One helluva a motorcycle. Of course that will be long gone when I get ready to buy, but that is in my price range.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 13:00:44 "racist, sexist, imperialistic, white supremacy. " please be accurate. I am not sexist. rofl. Also, tardfish, we just had an entire thread devoted to the link between rich families and higher test scores in kids, thus disproving about your last 7 posts. haha. Do you not agree that parenting and genetics MUST result in aristocracy? You seem to be ignoring this question.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 13:02:16 moron
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 13:16:07 *Tardfish spends an hour posting about how intelligence and wealth are totally unrelated* *sam comes in, and in 1 minute refers to a post that proves wealth and intelligence are in fact related* *tardfish, totally defeated, runs away* I thought I would try to have a decent argument with you, but it appears you devolved into childish insults the moment when faced with contravening facts. No wonder I make fun of you so much.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 13:22:05 *tardfish, totally defeated, runs away He always does.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 13:27:55 "but it appears you devolved into childish insults the moment when faced with contravening facts." He always does.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 13:57:47 So Rod, have you started reading the Iron Hell yet?
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 14:19:38 I have already read Brave New World and 1984. Same difference. All it has to offer is a pseudo validation for your bullshit social order. I don't see a whole new school of philosophy coming out of it.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 14:21:32 "Aeros, I just read a review of Iron Heel. I was struck by one sentence. "The problem is that with the end of World War II and the defeat (essentially) of Fascism that London's novel was no longer of interest as the world was confronted with a new set of problems." I guess your little "bible" is considered out of date."
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 15:16:48 Its about as relevant as Atlas Shrugged intellectually. However, you cannot be a well rounded individual if you read one and not the other. Indeed, Atlas Shrugged was Rand attempting to channel Iron Heel, only by saying the exact opposite. More to the point, it was no longer relevant, because World War 2 and the Great Depression settled the debate. Laissez Faire was moronic and Social Democracy was the best system, wherin you had a Capitalist economy managed by a Democratic Government to lay down the law when abuses became too extreme. Unfortunately, people these days want to bring back the age of the robber barons, and thus Iron Heel is now relevant again.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 15:21:00 In case you are wondering how the 1930's and 1940's settled the debate on the failure of Laissez Faire, you had the success of the Soviet Union in the war against all the odds. Being able to mobilize all the resources of the nation and its people to ultimate victory. The United States did pretty much the same thing as the Soviets did in the war, in that every industrial company in the United States was nationalized and harnessed to the war effort, receiving production orders from DC. Before the outbreak of World War 2, loose controls of the financial markets and led to economic collapse and major socialist agitation in the United States and Europe. The development of the mixed economy using Social Democratic principles staved off Communist revolutions in much of the Democratic world.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 17:30:25 The review I read said Iron Heel had nothing to do with laissez-faire, it dealt with fascism. If you don't know the difference, which I honestly believe that you don't, I see no reason to talk to you any further.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 17:34:35 Are you a moron Rod or are you just willfully trying to be stupid?
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 17:35:30 The Iron Heel was written in 1908. Think about this for a moment.
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 17:52:39 The book is about Nazi Germany, *NOT* laissez-faire capitalism. Don't forget, there were myriad abuses of "capitalism" at the turn of the century and it did not resemble laissez-fair in any way, shape or form. "Review Novel by Jack London, published in 1908, describing the fall of the United States to the cruel fascist dictatorship of the Iron Heel, a group of monopoly capitalists. Fearing the popularity of socialism, the plutocrats of the Iron Heel conspire to eliminate democracy and, with their secret police and military, terrorize the citizenry. They instigate a German attack on Hawaii on Dec. 4, 1912; as socialist revolutions topple capitalist governments around the world, the Iron Heel has 52 socialist members of the U.S. Congress imprisoned for treason. Elements of London's vision of fascism, civil war, and governmental oppression proved to be prophetic in the first half of the 20th century. -- The Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia of Literature --This text refers to the Hardcover edition." Especially the laissez-faire as described in Atlas Shrugged. Perhaps you have forgotten thee social premise of Atlas Shrugged. "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Just exactly where is the "Iron Heel" in that sentence?
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 18:04:47 Are you fucking HIGH? You must be trying to drive me into a frothing rage Dead Rod. How on earth can someone with a brain cell claim a book, written in 1908, is a criticism of Nazi Germany? There. Are. No. Words. Oh god, I need to stop posting here for a moment, I am about to say something really nasty.
Jesse Malcolm Barack Member	Mon Mar 05 18:12:43 Welcome to the world of trying to debate with senile old Rod.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 18:14:17 I love how aeros thinks that capitalism is bad, and that tardfish ran away from this thread after I destroyed him.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 18:15:43 I don't think Capitalism is "bad". I think Laissez Faire Capitalism is bad.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 18:17:53 Obviously you need a little government control. The entire point is to spread power around as much as possible... if the government, or the people, or the industry leaders get too much power, bad things happen.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 18:20:08 That is the point of Social Democracy. Your higher authority is elected Government with power balanced that is able to intervene when necessary or leave alone with not. It combines elements of Socialism in that it protects the working class and so on from outright exploitation while at the same time engendering trust in the market system on the part of all the players.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 18:29:10 The problem is you want to take it to far.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 18:34:33 Tardfish I see you posting in other threads. Why arent you posting in this one? rofl!
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 18:36:09 Aeros - I don't think Capitalism is "bad". I think Laissez Faire Capitalism is bad. That is because you do not understand the concept in a rational society. Aeros - Are you fucking HIGH? You must be trying to drive me into a frothing rage Dead Rod. How on earth can someone with a brain cell claim a book, written in 1908, is a criticism of Nazi Germany? "Sigh. No, the word did not yet exist when London wrote the book, that is why *HE* did not use it. Merriam-Webster used the word after it was created to review the book after London had created a fascist type of society in his work of fiction."
Hot Rod Member	Mon Mar 05 18:46:16 Aeros - How on earth can someone with a brain cell claim a book, written in 1908, is a criticism of Nazi Germany? HR - The book is about Nazi Germany, *NOT* laissez-faire capitalism. Of course it is *NOT ABOUT* Nazi Germany, but about a Nazi Germany type of society. Use your head for a change. That is why it is so hard to talk to you, every damned syllable has to be explained to you.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 18:54:13 That's it. Hot Rod, I am going to use small words. Fascism did not exist until the 1920's. To claim that a book, written in 1908 was about fascism, is idiotic. Whoever wrote that summary you are spewing, is a retard. Since you are spewing it, you are also a retard. The society described in the Iron Heel is AUTHORITARIAN. Authoritarian =/ Fascism. In this case, The system described is OLIGARCHISM, rule by the wealthy few at the expense of the majority poor. The entire point of Iron Heel is that Laissez Faire Capitalism will destroy Democracy, as it allows the wealthy few to assume the economic powers of a nation and use that power against the democratic system until it is totally controlled and serves at their pleasure. That is NOT FASCISM! Ram it through that senile old brain of yours. Someone who claims Fascism is coming to America should at least fucking know what Fascism is! How the FUCK can you claim Obama, the Democrats, Liberals etc, are Fascists if you don't even have a CLUE WHAT FASCISM IS! YOU RETARDED EXCUSE FOR SPACE! ....
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 19:01:30 Oh man, I feel better. "The problem is you want to take it to far." I don't think so. The reason you think I take things too far is that you advocate to much for Laissez Faire. The evidence is in your blaming government regulations for the collapse, when all the evidence indicates the exact opposite. Furthermore, you claim the growing wealth inequality is a good thing, when all the evidence indicates it is not. Among other things.
Forwyn Member	Mon Mar 05 19:04:21 "Fascism did not exist until the 1920's. To claim that a book, written in 1908 was about fascism, is idiotic." This is idiotic. When did Egalitarianism come around? Certainly not in the time of the Hunter-Gatherer, a society that practiced it, because political theorists hadn't gotten around to defining it.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 22:58:23 "Fascism " good one for my list. In US GoP verbacular its lost all its original meaning and just been placed as the polar opposite of "freedomUSAUSA!" which is why you cant use the word to communicate with Pedo Phile anymore. The words been destroyed and makes no sense between the two of you.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:13:49 they probably also had to change it, interestingly, because it had too many similarities with their ideology. Rather like if social democrats tried to pretend that Stalinism was all about hyper capitalism to eliminate all cross references between them (which they didnt to, since changing words is more the GoP domain)
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 23:20:52 tardfish, remember that one time you ran away from me for 10 hours, then game back and tried to ignore the first half of the thread?
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:30:29 Theres an interesting question of intellectual honesty that I havent considered in that issue, btw. Either party could fund campaigns and 'think tanks' to change the language, but the gop were the ones that did it. Hmmm, a new aspect for me to consider.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 05 23:33:02 my god, imagine how badly you must feel, tardfish, to have been owned that badly by me, run away, sneak back, and then have me just slap you in the face with it. You know, if you would man up to your mistakes, we would make fun of you less. A real man admits to his errors.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:35:57 Wow, I really fucked you up with that long list of points you refuse to answer, huh plutocratic aristocrat wannabe who believes the american dream is genetically impossible for 99% of americans lol
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 05 23:38:05 Terms are thrown around so loosely these days. I did a thread not too long ago explaining in simple language what Fascist ideology is, and it seems it was ignored. Or else I was not believed. For fucks sake, how hard is it to understand? A Meritocratic system built around a single political party that embraces the cultural and racial purity of a particular nation with a single individual chosen as the "face" of the party, wherein all citizens of the nations could aspire if they are competent enough to rise to the top. That is NOT what is described in Iron Heel. Fascism is a form of Egalitarianism, in that it reject the notion of class as a basis for rule. Its entire premise is that both Monarchies and Democracies are weak because they let wealth or birth dictate policy rather then what is best for a country. How fucking hard is this to understand? My mind is blown.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:40:59 "That is NOT what is described in Iron Heel. Fascism is a form of Egalitarianism, in that it reject the notion of class as a basis for rule." saywut???
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:42:51 fascism is classification at an extreme level.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Mon Mar 05 23:43:43 actually, no more extreme than colonialism
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:30:21 "classification is facsism" you just get dumber and dumber For a second I am tempted to save this thread to embarass you further, but knowing you, you'll make plenty more, so no problems there.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Tue Mar 06 00:37:38 and finally, in utter desperation, sam humiliates himself in defeat with his usual second resort: complete lying about what the other person said. Now thats public humiliation and defeat one can enjoy like a good wine. Im going to keep an eye on whether this too is a feature peculiar to the gop rhetoric.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Mar 06 00:38:33 Do you two really enjoy this game?
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:39:47 "WilliamTheBastard Member Mon Mar 05 23:42:51 fascism is classification" ooops dumbass
WilliamTheBastard Member	Tue Mar 06 00:39:58 its funny how EP never says a word of complaint in for example never ending TC/Camaban threads etc
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:40:24 Its more entertaining than differential wave equations, so relatively, yes.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Tue Mar 06 00:43:02 I do find it interesting to prod and observe the rationalizing, excuse-making, fabricating, framing, trans-coding and etymological abuse of language people like same use, yes.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Tue Mar 06 00:43:47 He's like a sort of lab experiment to me, in that respect.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Mar 06 00:43:54 "its funny how EP never says a word of complaint in for example never ending TC/Camaban threads etc " Because most of those threads are absolutely worthless. You two take *good* threads and ruin them with your games.
WilliamTheBastard Member	Tue Mar 06 00:45:49 I made some very strong points in this thread. They were met with nonsense- Youre welcvome to read them and debate them, since sam refused.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:46:04 ya, aeros bantering about how shitty free markets are is really a top notch threads. I kick tardfish out of the few interesting science threads we have... but this certainly does not qualify.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:46:34 tardfish bravely ran away!
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 06 00:46:52 when danger reared its ugly head he bravely turned his tail and fled!
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