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Utopia Talk / Politics / Norwegian parenting
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 09:05:44
Sucks and has almost no effects :(

http://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/fby2t/

Research on the intergenerational transmission of educational attainment, and transmission of social positions more generally, have long attempted to separate the relative roles of ascription and achievement. In these efforts, the bulk of research has ignored genetic inheritance. We use structural equations models and data on 4590 twin pairs and their parents to distinguish the roles of genetic and environmental influences on educational attainment in Norway, a country with high affordability and easy access to education at all levels. Our quantitative genetic models confirm the status quo; not of sociology, but of behavior genetics. Heritable factors play an important role in the transmission process, and the postulated direct effects of parents own educational attainments are negligible. The family environment does matter, but only those features that are shared between the twins themselves and not those that involve their parents. These results represent a challenge to conventional sociological theory on intergenerational transmission processes and the role of education in social stratification.

jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 09:24:02
"Table 2 shows results from the ACE model, the classic twin design. Additive genetic factors ex-
plained 44.9% of the variation in educational attainment for both females and males. Shared environmental factors (C), explained 18.9% of the variation, and the residual (34.3%) is interpreted as the influences of idiosyncratic environmental influences. These results indicate that both genetics, the family of origin and features of unique environmental all play roles in shaping individual educational attainments."

The sum of catagorized environmental factors and uncatagorized environmental factors is 18.9%+34.3%.

Or rather what we would expect from nature + nuture understandings.

"Judging from the results presented in this paper, scholars as well as policymakers would do well in imitating Norwegian educational policy in providing easy access and financing. At least in this analysis, the role of family background seem small and indeed negligible for the eventual outcome."

The article is simply arguing that parental social standing is of limited importance in determining educational outcomes. It is not arguing in any way that the genetic disposition is particularly strong (44.9% is in the region of what we would expect).

It is arguing that other countries should do what Norway does.

The statistical presentation was rather complex, so it surprises me not at all that you did not understand it (or even read it?).

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 10:54:51
The autism is strong in you, we have previously established this, they gave you a degree for it. This is a recent study on top of the many previous similiar ones, not exactly new stuff. Education level as you yourself like to point out is a critical factor in determining life outcome. So it isn’t just any factor.

The thing with the environmental factors, specifically the shared one is that they are difficult to seperate from the genetic ones, some of it could be explained by heritability we do not yet grasp.

Indeed to enable the full potential of a population, easy access to education is very important. A fine example of how understanding our biology (genes) can help improve society.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:03:09
This is a trivial example, but still deeper in the next layer of research that needs to be done and is being done in behavioral genetics will reveal truths about us. Truths that must inform policy decisions if we are to solve many of the social ills and dysfunctions. Judging by how dense you have been (and antagonistic) on this topic in understanding at all what I am saying. And the anxiety of people I talk to when I talk about this. We have an issue trying to sell in the idea that the genes of human animal is not trivial in explaining hens behavior.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:16:50
Remember that one time when I bait the only Norwegian poster on UP and in the ingress say Norwegian parenting sucks? Good times. You can do better lulzgul. Regardless of how stupid you think I am, you know I can read an abstract. The inportant part is that all of this is shattering old stupid beliefs in sociology and the humanities, you know where the overrepresentstion of leftwingers make them the ”educated” wing of politics :) I was sure my motivations where obvious on this!
jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 11:22:47
Nimi
Lulz, you did not understand the study at all, did you?

In egalitarian societies such as Norway, parental education levels do not impact on children's education attainment.

That is what the study says.

Otherwise, it just confirms nature-nurture stuff that has been general knowledge for generations.

I would be interested in studies indicating that on a level field, chromosone combinations are better predictors of educational attainment than genetics in a wider sense. You know that xx predicts higher educational outcomes than xy.
jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 11:24:42
I will always be "baited" by chances to point out flaws in your education nimi. Post more studies that you have not read and do not understand.

I am sure to be "baited" by that :).
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:37:43
This has been studied elsewhere lulzgul, outside of Norway. Steven Pinker, Blank Slate is (I had to check) 15 years old now.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:42:17
The phenomena that parenting has small to negligible effects on a wide range of traits is not in any way exclusive to Norway. I almost feel like I am stuck in a loop, but yes the argument is that things and stuff we are and do are heritable, sometimes to a shocking degree. Is that complex enough language for you?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:44:27
"nature-nurture"

You mean evolutionary theory? Or is that a dirty word for whatever nuance of communism you belong to?
jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 11:47:58
Nimi
If you had read the study, then you would have known factors had been studied elswhere as the text referred to them. With the published date but of course as that is how academic texts are referred to.

The interesting part is actually the bit about Norway. An egalitarian society (otherwise known as a Social Democracy) makes it easier to isolate factors that cause variations in educational outcomes. The assumption being that higher education is universally accessable, to affordability and other economic factors can be discounted.

jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 11:51:36
"The phenomena that parenting has small to negligible effects"

Not what the study showed, bro. It showed that:

"In egalitarian societies such as Norway, parental education levels do not impact on children's education attainment."

The environmental factors in total amounted to around 50% of the outcome. As would be reasonably expected by any well-rounded individual.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Dec 20 11:53:41
"You know that xx predicts higher educational outcomes than xy."

This is not relevant from an evolutionary POV, what matter is status, women pick men with higher social status and men try to achieve status for that very reason. Status may be connected to education level, it may also not be, it depends on the environment. In a certain setting, it is trivial to imagine that a higher propensity for violence would be key to achieving status... and everything between :) But this level of thinking may be too complicated for you.
jergul
large member
Wed Dec 20 11:54:08
You are very quiet on chromosone composition as a predictor of educational outcomes. I wonder why. It is a very interesting part of evolutionary biology.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 02:08:12
Just don’t get confused over the complex math on this one.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1712.06414.pdf
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 02:15:16
”You are very quiet on chromosone composition”

Asked answered and irrelevant . NIH NIH NIH! :)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 02:25:40
But since you could not read the abstract and lift out the critical message and instead got bogged down in the numbers *sigh* lulzgul...

”These results represent a challenge to conventional sociological theory on intergenerational transmission processes and the role of education in social stratification.”

^these are the theories of the institutions that are heavy on socialists and women :) and they fail to capture reality in a meaningful way. Diversity and stuff.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 02:47:53
Nimi
No, you went on a rant on why you think women pick men. You did not answer if you thought to what extent cromosone composition predicts educational attainment.

That you think educational attainment levels are irrelevant is interesting, and contradicts the importance you placed on it earlier.

"sociological theory on intergenerational transmission processes and the role of education in social stratification"

This means:

"In egalitarian societies such as Norway, parental education levels do not impact on children's education attainment."

This does contradict assumptions that children will tend to inherit their parent's educational levels.

Boy are you thick.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:03:04
You seem not to fully grasp that this is not selling you anything new, but shattering old lies. Whatever percentage ratio the science will show is irrelevant to me, because it will include genetic ones. As a student of biology there are no surprises. The hard to swallow reality lies with those who for various reasons have pinned careers and aplauds on these lies. Something about the trauma of shifting paradigm, didn’t you say? Your lot is in for some traumatic times since they and their theories for decades now have assumed and churned out people with ”degrees” in this idiocy. Degrees who go out into the wild and sell ”communication” services to companies that are based on shoddy premises and unfounded ”scientific” (sounding) principles. They all have in common that they sound appealling and ”good” to intellectual idiots.

I have something like this going on at work now. Apparently noone at work (technical masters and phds) thought of this until some Iranian came in and asked...but why do you believe this? Where is the basic research? Effect studies? On there are none? You have to see for yourself!? How many millions!?!? Usually people start waffling about how ”complex” human behavior at this point, as if to excuse the slew of competing ”theories” that exists in these spaces.

Shame, I could feel it in the room. You would be happy to know that most of the people who sell these services are women. Capitalizing on their ”education” in the free market selling snakeoil.

So you go back to your complex stats (lulz) I get paid to manage people like you in the right direction :)
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 03:06:10
You are failing to understand the study.

Here:

This means:

"In egalitarian societies such as Norway, parental education levels do not impact on children's education attainment."

This does contradict assumptions that children will tend to inherit their parent's educational levels.

Boy are you thick.

Also, your life sound tedious and dull. Stop referring to what happens to you at work all the time. Its boring.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:14:39
”This does contradict assumptions that children will tend to inherit their parent's educational levels.”

An assumption you just made up and that noone relevant believes. But sure lets go through all things I am not arguing. It will in the end further your understanding of your fellow posters and human beings, muh ”communication”. I am all for education and understanding.

Can you summarize my point so far?
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 03:22:07
I doubt you could summarize your point so far.

You are flaking all over the place.

My point is that you have not read the study, and did not understand the abstract.

The article refers to the assumptions I summarized.

Ie the assumption that educational attainment can be predicted by parental education levels.

The only thing interesting about the article contradicts your entire outlook:

Egalitarian Social Democracies are best at unlocking educational potential.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:23:22
If you find the things I say boring you should stop responding. The issues we talk about here sometimes have a direct impact on our lives. Unlike where US carrier groups are and he next village the SAA has liberated.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:25:29
Well. You know where to find me, once you can either summarize or tell me that you can’t.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:33:07
As a hint. The second link I posted. Read it. Diversity produces truths, religion (like socialism) can not in the long run, because of ideological dogmas and the inherent nature of the believer.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 03:33:20
I never respond to your workplace anectdotes. Its right up there with HR telling us what 1950s movie is showing on tv.

The study does not directly impact on our lives. It simply documents that in an egalitarian social democracy, parental education levels do not predict children's educational outcomes.

I can tell you I will not summarize. In the sense that I will not put in the effort required to see if a summary is even possible.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:40:11
”The only thing interesting about the article contradicts your entire outlook”

You have yet to accurately summarize the point I am making with all these threads about genes and biology. Start with that and then we can move on to my ”entire outlook”. Very socialist/religious to assume the grand narrative and then look for evidence to fit the narrative.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 03:40:41
I am incidentally mostly a economic social-democrat.

I believe a mixed model economy that limits income and wealth inequality is by far superior to any imaginable alternatives.

Philosophically anchored to Locke in case you were curious.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 03:41:15
Your entire outlook on life. Wah egalitarian social democracies are cancers that must be cut out.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 03:52:48
You can’t/wont for whatevever reason, most likely because it is very traumatic for the concept of educated socialists/liberal. But for educational purpose it is at the end of the abstract.

A fair amount of these educated liberals are in communication and journalism (in sweden) more of them (journalists) now than ever and the degree of activism is record high. People with high communication skills and low level of understanding for science on average. Rethoric over substance, sounds good over has a significant effect. Women & men, right & left. Diversity of thought, it matters lulzgul.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 04:06:58
I won't because you are flaking worse than a Trump tweet.

80 000 000 peer reviewed published studies suggest diversity is not the problem. Its more that stupid wants equal time and respect with science.

Not traumatic. It is just a waste of time to try and discern patterns that essentially is a lunatic rant.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 04:10:27
You understand that, right?

Write a coherent paper, then submit it to a relevant publication. If you lack educational weight, then colaborate with establised researchers.

Wailing on the internet about diversity of thought just shows that you are missing the main qualifier: Academic.

Otherwise: FB is full of diversity of thought if the academic process is too strenous for you.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 04:14:18
”Your entire outlook on life. Wah egalitarian social democracies are cancers that must be cut out”

Your definition vs mine. Of course we will stay at an impasse like that. But I think, that we both are able to look beyond the tempered language. You should be able to extract from my drug induced rants that the core is about dogmatically held beliefs, religious or academic, that are harmful and/or an obstacle in the way of of progress and knowledge. A problem that is not remedied by ”peer review”, something you have waffled about. You obviously have no idea of the almost infinite range of _quality_ in ”peer reviewed”.

A peer reviewed study is only as good as the quality of the reviewers and the soundness of the theories at play. You can set up whatever religious system you want and churn out articles reviewed within your dogmatic framework. It has no bearing on how well your theories are capturing reality and making predictions, you need to study effects, that is difficult but also lacking almost systematically in the social sciences. Things are changing, as we you can read at the end of the abstract, most likely one funeral at a time.

Intellectual cancer of socialism is due to Sweden having been ruled by socialists for 90 of the last 100 years and ehm not very genetically diverse :-) Things go unquestioned, it takes someone from the outside to point it out. You are welcome.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 21 04:21:39
Is ”flaking” the new buzzword for I didn’t understand you, I assumed a bunch of shit so I could disagree and dislike your ”entire outlook” and I will not correct my understanding with any new information now?

What a horrible ”outlook” to have when you are communicating with people, very common on the left.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 04:26:04
Nimi
My point was that diversity of thought is represented in the 80 000 000 peer review papers.

I would not have to extract from your drug induced rants if you would follow academic procedures and publish. Or find someone that has.

Its a quality assurance thing. Publishing follows procedures meant to ensure you present your findings in the best possible academic light.

jergul
large member
Thu Dec 21 04:27:13
Flake = Flakker = Flingor
Asgard
Member
Thu Dec 21 15:25:15
Sociology and psychology are in afront to science.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Dec 24 07:00:48
I disagree. Both fields are full of nonsense and lacking in empiricism, but as disciplines they are important and needed. It is also true that both fields are full of people who have not been infected by the intellectual cancer and who strive to produce quality data.

Lulzgul, you lost the ballgame, you showed up in hockey gear, bro. Disqualified by retardation, I’m afraid.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 24 09:00:08
Nimi
That is not my understanding of the outcome of this thread at all.

But I see you are into the xmas drugs. Oh yay.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Dec 24 11:36:12
That is because you are retarded and have the communication skills of a turd. You serve a purpose non the less.

When I feel like bringing something up at work to my scandinavian social democratic anxiety bubbling coworkers I write it here. You are always game (I appreciate that)

You give me the baseline retard scandinavian social democratic reaction, I can build up from there. It has worked fairly well, no one has ever gone full lulzgul.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 24 17:48:52
Or perhaps because I am rather clever and understand the system science operates in?

Opinion is divided.

Everything works really well...until suddenly you are unemployed.

Do more drugs, bro. They make you smert.
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 28 08:04:47
http://en....Flynn_(academic)#Academic_work

Flynn has described himself as an "atheist, a scientific realist, a social democrat"

Though undoubtably you will feel the urge to create a new thread (Nordic intelligence IQ has been faling since 1996).

The cure is reading books, bro.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 28 12:07:58
"Though undoubtably you will feel the urge"

These threads have specific purpose as I just told you. I do not have the time nor do I see the value in continuing threads and discussions that will not go anywhere. You shouldn't measure your self worth in how many times you have more time to waste on UP, it isn't the sign of a healthy and balanced life. I have other things to do that produce more value. I appreciate you taking part, but take it for what it is.

Even if I thought I could convince you, I am not convinced that process happens inside one thread during a weekend of keyboard spamming. Change takes time, I am Iranian and patient.


As for the drop in IQ in scandinavia, my thoughts, in order.

1. Large groups of low IQ people have been given asylum in Scandinavia. When you have a generous asylum policy and a well established social safety, this will attract people who find themselves in certain shall we say shitty situations. Noble as it may be to act as the welfare office of earth, it also has consequences.

Given that Sweden has had much more migration than Norway and Denmark, I would assume that the situation is much worse here. I say assume because we do not have any numbers for Sweden, because we stopped measuring this in the 90's. It is the Swedish way, if you dislike something, pretend it isn't there.

2. Brain drain effect.
The articles I have read also mention that other Europeans countries have seen a stagnation, Germany and Estonia for instance. I have no idea the difference between them. But there is a huge difference in migration to Estonia and Germany.

Meanwhile the IQ in the USA has continued to go up. The reverse effect of Swedish migration policy. The lion share of the worlds high tech companies are in the USA, these places bend over backwards to get gifted people on their roster.

3. Education policy
As I explained to you in the other thread the Swedish education system and the pedagogy research at it's core has disconnected from the rest of the world. Absurd ideas have infected the institutes and in line with the general social science tradition. Measuring the effects of different teaching methods is considered inhumane, empiricism is oppressive and so on, a very post modern approach.

The feminization of the education system has lead to a more emphatic approach to education. One where you do not want to stress the students and given them "tests", you will hear things like "according to what epistemology should we measure knowledge?" and sentiments that can only be understood as a goal for the school to take over the role of the home and parents, love and safe spaces. Once again noble, but impossible and further more comes at the cost of the school system slowly failing at it's primary function, transferring knowledge.

This I think is the Swedish realization that biology plays a role. That understanding it and solving it is difficult, so instead let's make everyone suck equally!
jergul
large member
Thu Dec 28 12:38:39
1. People read less literature and that impacts directly on IQ scores.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Dec 28 14:12:40
So far all the venues studied to raise IQ has shown insignificant or no effect. The best venues being studied are in genetics at the moment for obvious reasons. One of them in China I think, starting with the mapping of the genes of highly intelligent people. That will take sometime given the hundred or perhaps thousands of genes involved in IQ. The idea is to help couples by picking the ”smartest” version of a baby their own genes can produce.

The other one lies in the CRISPER technology. Both are many years away.

If there is any good reason to think that reading literature raises your IQ that would be great. Link?
jergul
large member
Fri Dec 29 04:47:42
Nimi
Or you could start with reading the studies. IQs have been increasing consistently until 1996 everywhere.

Noting perhaps that upper IQs increase slowly if at all. Almost all change is the bottom scoring a lot better than before (a huge fraction of HRs generation would today be classified as slightly retarded).

Link provided already with Flynn's biography. Reading literature improves scores directly due to how IQ tests are structured.
jergul
large member
Fri Dec 29 04:48:43
(note that we are speaking of IQ test scores, mkay? That is all IQ tests give)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Dec 30 16:37:06
^So we can basically put IQ into the heap of things where lulzgul lacks even a laymens understanding.

The flynn effect is observed almost everywhere regardless of the amount of literature people consume (pro tip this differes alot from country to country). What has changed lulzgul? Success in the modern society became dependant on IQ as the direct environment was bent to our will and people moved into cities and became hipsters whether in Nigeria or Norway, if you are intelligent you will make it.
jergul
large member
Sat Dec 30 17:46:53
IQ is a measure of what people score in IQ tests.

What changed?

The answer is sitting right in front of you. Literally.

Electronics take time that was before spend to prime for parts of the IQ test (portions of the test essentially measure how well read a person is).

And you reversed the question druggie. I responded to why IQ has fallen in Scandinavia.

For expanations on the Flynn effect (why IQs have slowly increased for a long time. See peer reviewed literature.

No need to invent the wheel when a matter has been well-studied.
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