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Utopia Talk / Politics / Question for you Brits or
patom
Member
Fri Jan 05 22:17:30
anyone else who has universal health care in their country.
Are you told what doctor you can see for a primary care giver or can you select the Doctor of your choice?
Another question, do any of your countries allow citizens to sue their doctor or hospital for malpractice?
Currently having a discussion with my son about these subjects.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Jan 05 23:30:49

Good question.

Pillz
Member
Fri Jan 05 23:51:25
In Canada you pick your doctor. You can get a private doctor too. But anyways, in Quebec we have a giant useless database with doctors that you or your insurance go through and see whose taking patients (nobody, ever).

Because it's difficult to find a doctor unless you want to pay (is my understanding, but it's definitely tough without paying).

Malpractice... Doctor maaaybe. Hospitals? Lol no. They don't even keep track of their own mistakes so it's your word against an incomplete internal record. People with shit left in them like metal rods don't even win suits. I will post relevant links when I have time.
Paramount
Member
Sat Jan 06 03:27:13
In Sweden you have the right to choose to go to a private health care facility or a public health care facility.

You are entitled to receive a so-called permanent medical contact that can help you in different ways.


I thought that we had the right to select a doctor of our choice, but... I found this:

"You only have the right to choose a fixed medical contact in the primary care. There is nothing in the law that states that you have the right to choose a specific doctor at a specialist clinic,"

But I guess... in the end, if you have money you can pick and choose which doctor to go to. Because no one can stop you from going to doctor B instead of doctor A.


Malpractice.... you can write to the "Ansvarsnämnden" (The Health Services Board of Health). It is a state authority that tests whether healthcare professionals are guilty of maladministration or negligence in their professional activities.

I guess if the doctor has done something criminal you can always report him/her to the police.

Not sure if you can sue a hospital (I don't see why you shouldn't be able to though) but I think you can sue a private clinic/doctor.
Seb
Member
Sat Jan 06 03:57:40
In the UK you can chose your general practitioner. You can go private too.

Within your GP practice, you may or may not be able to request appointments with a particular individual doctor. Depends on how the practice organises itself.

You can sue the NHS for malpractice.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Jan 06 10:00:09

So, basically, a single payer is a way to get rid of the elderly.

Paramount
Member
Sat Jan 06 11:15:57
In Sweden we have the Ättestupan. Maybe you should try it once, Hot Rod?

Ättestupa (Swedish for kin/clan precipice) is the mythical practice of senicide during Nordic prehistoric times: elderly people are said to have thrown themselves, or were thrown, to their deaths. According to legend, this was done when the old people were unable to support themselves or assist in a household.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ättestupa
Seb
Member
Sat Jan 06 12:13:52
HotRod:

Seems unlikely give life expectancy here is longer than the US.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Jan 06 12:15:25
in Doc Martin people go in and get treated by the gruff but skilled doctor then leave w/o having to pay

seems ideal
pillz
Member
Sat Jan 06 12:19:19
Canada also ahead of the US for life expectancy....

Poor Hot Rod, looking at an early grave it seems.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Jan 06 12:24:36
our death panels have had great success
pillz
Member
Sat Jan 06 12:43:40
""You only have the right to choose a fixed medical contact in the primary care. There is nothing in the law that states that you have the right to choose a specific doctor at a specialist clinic," "

Yes, here too. While you get your choice of family doctor (assuming you can find one), you don't get to pick your specialist at a public clinic or hospital. Say for example you want to see a specialist at a private/semi private clinic/practice however, you can, but that'd be paid through your insurance (or pocket).

Also regarding malpractice & accidental deaths and whatever:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/health-and-fitness/health-navigator/patients-odds-of-winning-medical-malpractice-suits-in-canada-arent-good-says-new-book/article10812604/
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Jan 06 13:02:25
"Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion."

Being an idiot doesn't help.
jergul
large member
Sat Jan 06 14:04:18
You can chose your GP in Norway. He/she refers you to specialist services that in turn review if the referral is relevant.

The specialist referral can be to anywhere in the country and under some circumstances abroad.

Malpractice suits are uncommon as a patient-fund exists to provide restitution to patients who have been harmed by malpractice (it effectively acts as an independent judicial branch with two levels of appeal).
patom
Member
Sun Jan 07 11:03:04
Thanks guys. I'm not sure whether I can get Aspire to respond to your comments or even read them. He's convinced that the rest of the world is communists when it comes to health care.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jan 07 11:44:32
Seb
Member Sat Jan 06 12:13:52
"HotRod:

Seems unlikely give life expectancy here is longer than the US.

Not sure how you arrive at that conclusion."

Our infant mortality rate is extremely high. If you take that out of the equation, our life expectancy would probably shoot way beyond yours.

...mostly because your single payer system gets rid of the elderly.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jan 07 11:44:36

Drug overdose is driving down our life expectancy.

jergul
large member
Sun Jan 07 12:16:56
Ruggy
While I respect your patriotism in adversity, there is a fine line that should not be crossed.

http://data.oecd.org/healthstat/life-expectancy-at-65.htm

Men at 65 live another 18.6 years in the UK and another 18 years in the US. For women the numbers are 20.8 and 20.6 respectively.

So, the UKs single payer system kills the elderly less effectively that voodoo economic medicine does.
jergul
large member
Sun Jan 07 12:17:15
than*
Rugian
Member
Sun Jan 07 12:22:23
*shrugs* No one ever accused government of being efficient. It's a testament to the merits of private enterprise if I've ever heard one.
jergul
large member
Sun Jan 07 12:27:55
I get that detached cynicism is warranted given the general circumstances, but my point was mostly that it was easy to check if high infant mortality did indeed fully explain variations in life expectancy.

You could have checked.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jan 07 12:42:50
Yes, I could have, had I wished to do anything than make a joke and point out that it is possible for one country to have a higher life expectancy than a second country while simultaneously offing its old people. The remark implying that the UK has death panels should have been a clear sign in that regard (as shitty as that unholy cesspool of tyranny and mediocrity is, I don't think they've resorted to murdering the elderly to save on health costs...yet, anyway). But I'm sorry for crossing your fine line, whatever that is.
jergul
large member
Sun Jan 07 12:54:17
Ruggy
They are still weaning off killing the elderly in Norway. 2 of my great-aunts were starved to death under medical supervision as late as in the 1990s (I had 11 all told, but still).

Though a great humane step forward from expecting them to wander off into the winter night, it still is something we should consider slightly archaic.
Pillz
Member
Sun Jan 07 13:27:34
Voluntary euthanasia should be a thing everywhere, if you want to free up space from elderly patients.

Extend it to old folks homes, and have hot rod tour them. All residents will opt to die.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 01:14:28

Great moments in single payer: Britain cancels 50,000 surgeries

Ed MorrisseyPosted at 12:41 pm on January 5, 2018


http://hot...itain-cancels-50000-surgeries/

jergul
large member
Mon Jan 08 04:21:57
HR
You are covered by a single payer. And would be dead without it.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 05:03:17

As long as it is offered L will take advantage of it as is my Right.

jergul
large member
Mon Jan 08 05:39:37
Indeed. Perhaps you would like to comment on the quality of care provided to you by single-payer funded services?

The wheel chair (should we call it mobility vehicle?) satisfactory? The home services up to par?
Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 10:25:18
Rugian:

It really doesn't. That's just a myth you tell yourself.

Life expectancy at 65 in the US between 2006-10
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2011/022.pdf


Life Expectancy at 65 in the EU between 1980 and 2015
http://ec...._age_65,_1980-2015_(years).png


Basically, best case (white non hispanic) in 2010, 65 year olds would live another 12 years.

In the EU, about 20 more years.

Our health systems are better at preserving life in the elderly and the young.
Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 10:27:58
HotRod:

Cancels as in delays.

And these are minor surgeries. Like, e.g. a procedure to get a cyst removed. So that they can focus instead on life threatening ones.

I.e. they are prioritising on wellbeing.

How do you think a private insurance funded system prioritises?
Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 10:28:05
hint. $.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 10:37:14

My single pay is not shared with 330,000,000 people.


May I suggest you look at the efficiency of what our VA benefits were a few years ago.

Still not the entire country. Or take a close look at what GB just did.

jergul
large member
Mon Jan 08 11:31:43
Seb
Heh, you just duplicated the sources I provided earlier.

HR
VA issues are hardly surprising given the need to ramp up following global military rambages.

73 million people are enrolled in medicaid programmes incidentally. Or 10 million more than the UK has in population.
Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 11:44:28
Read the entire thread before replying jergul?? Madness. Anarchy. Dogs and Cats living together.
Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 11:47:29
Hot Rod:
I did take a close look at what the UK just did.

UK is on a cash for outcomes basis one of the most efficient systems in the OECD. Public plus private expenditure on healthcare compared to demographically adjusted healthcare outcomes.

I know you hate the implications, but socialised healthcare works.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 11:49:42

"73 million people are enrolled in medicaid programmes incidentally."


And is broken up and applied by 50 States.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 12:01:15

poop


http://www...sDodo/videos/1844376362488832/

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 12:05:55

Seb, perhaps when you are dealing with a hundred million or less. But, I can't imagine what would happen with 330 Million administered by the federal government. It would be far worse than the veterans and obamacare combined. IMHO.

Seb
Member
Mon Jan 08 12:27:39
HotRod:

It should scale better with numbers, not worse.

Unless you are doing it wrong.
pillz
Member
Mon Jan 08 12:40:26
Hot Rod is right.
What happened when the Soviets tried to run all the farms to feed the whole Soviet Union? Famine, because its impossible for the government to run so much stuff. It becomes slower than a tortoise on lean.

America would be backrupt and emtpy in under 5 years if you let them administer healthcare like the soviets administered farming.

Jesus, when the government is in control, they deny genetics seb!

Imagine if you let the government control medicine? No more genetics!
patom
Member
Mon Jan 08 13:33:01
Perhaps I would not be too enthused if Mike Pence and or Ted Cruz and their ilk were to start making medical decisions for me. Probably get some faith healers as primary physicians.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 14:05:26

Seb - Unless you are doing it wrong.


Have you not learned anything about American bureaucracy in your years on this forum. :(


The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency.

~Eugene McCarthy



http://www.brainyquote.com/topics/bureaucracy

Pillz
Member
Mon Jan 08 14:34:29
Let's not quote Mccarthy unironically
jergul
large member
Mon Jan 08 14:37:21
HR
You are making a powerful case for the dissolution of union.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 17:21:42

Not quite read for that.

My country is getting Greater by the minute.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Jan 08 17:32:13
*-ready
Seb
Member
Tue Jan 09 14:01:28
Sure. Except for the fact that illness is a visceral threat to the livlihoods of many, you spend more and more on healthcare for lower and lower life expectancy.

And you freely admit you are unable to put together a competent government administration.



patom
Member
Tue Jan 09 15:23:44
He has been brainwashed to believe that 100 separate for profit health Insurance companies would be much more efficient than one government bureaucracy.
Pillz
Member
Tue Jan 09 16:12:18
Well, nobody is accusing single payer of efficiency. Canada should fundamentally overhaul the system, and a lot of people want to see it become semi private to increase oversights, decrease costs, and curtail state funded & managed nepotism that's apparently a big thing in hospitals
Pillz
Member
Tue Jan 09 16:13:19
But, I don't personally subscribe to this semi private thing just yet. I'd rather see the federal government heavily police the provinces under a restructured system.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Tue Jan 09 19:33:40

You can keep that in Canada.

Pillz
Member
Tue Jan 09 20:05:01
Wouldn't want to deprive you of an early grave
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Tue Jan 09 20:15:11

Don't worry, I have at least another 20 years in me.

jergul
large member
Wed Jan 10 01:56:57
HR
Well, yah. You made it to the single-payer threshold, so can expect quite a few more years.

The dangersone is 54-67. Survival of the fittest, man.
patom
Member
Wed Jan 10 07:23:06
All through history there were those that lived a long time. Today there are many more that are making it into their 80's and 90's. All due to the advances in modern medicines.

Just in my lifetime the changes have been fantastic. I can remember my brother getting the use of an oxygen tent when he got severe pneumonia in his teens.
I remember back when the polio vaccine was introduced. I also remember people in my neighborhood getting polio and the life altering illness. My sister in law is a polio survivor.
I remember when Cancer was an automatic death sentence. Had kids in my school that died with Leukemia. Now the survival rate is quite high. Expensive but it's still worth it.
It's been 100 years since the Flu epidemic that killed millions.

Just imagine if all the money that is being spent to create war machines was dedicated to science to improve our lives.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Wed Jan 10 09:43:40

It would be nice, but considering the world we live in today, not going to happen.

jergul
large member
Wed Jan 10 11:13:48
Yes, every country should spend as much money as the rest of the world combined. It will be great.
Pillz
Member
Wed Jan 10 11:42:02
http://time.com/5090112/infant-mortality-rate-usa/

American Babies Are Less Likely to Survive Their First Year Than Babies in Other Rich Countries
jergul
large member
Wed Jan 10 20:58:46
Pillz
I will be more cautious. What does that article say in your opinion?
Wrath of Orion
Member
Wed Jan 10 21:24:42
That plot is interesting. The rate of decline is pretty much the same since 1975 when looked at as a whole. The plateau from 1960 to about 1972 introduced the gap that has not been closed since.
Pillz
Member
Fri Jan 12 17:10:28
http://www...nt-dumping-20180111-story.html
patom
Member
Sat Jan 13 05:34:37
US Hospitals will do anything to discharge non paying patients ASAP.
They are required by law to treat patients for their immediate needs if they come into the ER. Once those concerns are addressed they patient is discharged.
They, like the politicians we now have, have no obligation to try and seek shelter for the homeless or to feed them.
Daemon
Member
Tue Jan 30 01:23:38
http://www...y/surgery-germany-vicodin.html

Opinion | After Surgery in Germany, I Wanted Vicodin, Not Herbal Tea
6-7 Minuten

MUNICH — I recently had a hysterectomy here in Munich, where we moved from California four years ago for my husband’s job. Even though his job ended a year ago, we decided to stay while he tries to start a business. Thanks to the German health care system, our insurance remained in force. This, however, is not a story about the benefits of universal health care.

Thanks to modern medicine, my hysterectomy was performed laparoscopically, without an overnight hospital stay. My only concern about this early release was pain management. The fibroids that necessitated the surgery were particularly large and painful, and the procedure would be more complicated.

I brought up the subject of painkillers with my gynecologist weeks before my surgery. She said that I would be given ibuprofen. “Is that it?” I asked. “That’s what I take if I have a headache. The removal of an organ certainly deserves more.”

“That’s all you will need,” she said, with the body confidence that comes from a lifetime of skiing in crisp, Alpine air.

I decided to pursue the topic with the surgeon.

He said the same thing. He was sure that the removal of my uterus would not require narcotics afterward. I didn’t want him to think I was a drug addict, but I wanted a prescription for something that would knock me out for the first few nights, and maybe half the day.

With mounting panic, I decided to speak to the anesthesiologist, my last resort.

This time, I used a different tactic. I told him how appalled I had been when my teenager was given 30 Vicodin pills after she had her wisdom teeth removed in the United States. “I am not looking for that,” I said, “but I am concerned about pain management. I won’t be able to sleep. I know I can have ibuprofen, but can I have two or three pills with codeine for the first few nights? Let me remind you that I am getting an entire organ removed.”

The anesthesiologist explained that during surgery and recovery I would be given strong painkillers, but once I got home the pain would not require narcotics. To paraphrase him, he said: “Pain is a part of life. We cannot eliminate it nor do we want to. The pain will guide you. You will know when to rest more; you will know when you are healing. If I give you Vicodin, you will no longer feel the pain, yes, but you will no longer know what your body is telling you. You might overexert yourself because you are no longer feeling the pain signals. All you need is rest. And please be careful with ibuprofen. It’s not good for your kidneys. Only take it if you must. Your body will heal itself with rest.”

I didn’t mention that I use ibuprofen like candy. Why else do they come in such jumbo sizes at American warehouse stores? Instead, I thought about his poetic explanation of pain as my guide, although his mention of “just resting” was disturbing. What exactly is resting?

I know how to sleep but resting is an in-between space I do not inhabit. It’s like an ambiguous place that can be reached only by walking into a magic closet and emerging on the other side to find a dense forest and a talking lion, a lion who can guide me toward the owl who supplies the forest with pain pills.

“I do have another question,” I said. “Stool softeners — certainly, you prescribe those? That’s pretty standard with anesthesia throughout the modern world, I believe.”

“You won’t need those,” he answered in his calm voice. “Your body will function just fine. Just give it a day or two. Drink a cup of coffee, slowly. And whatever you do, do not get it in a to-go cup. You must sit in one place and enjoy this cup, slowly.”

His gentle suggestion to trust my body almost brought me to tears. It reminded me of the poster in my doctor’s waiting room, the one informing us that herbal tea is the first remedy to try when we have a cold. The first remedy I try is the decongestants I bring with me from the United States. I can’t find those in Germany, nor can I find the children’s cough medicine that makes my child drowsy. I also import that.

Come to think of it, I bring a lot of medicine with me from the United States, all over the counter, all intended to take away discomfort. The German doctors were telling me that being uncomfortable is O.K.

My first night home after surgery, I didn’t sleep well because of the pain from the carbon dioxide pumped into my body for the laparoscopy. Had I had something to knock me out, I would have taken it.

In the morning, my husband propped me up in bed and brought me a pot of tea. I was tired and uncomfortable, and I was bored. An entire day lay ahead of me. I was dreading it.

I took two ibuprofens that first day. In hindsight, I didn’t need them, but I felt like I should take something. What I really needed was patience pills, and a few distractions. The hardest part of my recovery was lingering in bed, or on the sofa, feeling the discomfort and boredom as time ticked by slowly. I didn’t feel like reading or doing much of anything. I watched a few movies and many episodes of “Antiques Roadshow.”

Every day, my body felt a little better. I drank mint tea. I drank fennel tea. I drank homemade chai with ginger, cardamom and pepper. I drank coffee slowly, enjoying every sip. I lingered in that in-between space.

After a week, I took the tram to the doctor’s office to have my stitches removed. My doctor, with her usual cup of chamomile tea in hand, remarked on my progress. “I rested,” I told her. Normally, I would have said, “I did nothing,” but I didn’t say that. I had been healing, and that’s something.

I did say that this story is not about the benefits of universal health care, but for the sake of accuracy, let me add that this hysterectomy was not without cost. After my surgery, I had to pay $25 for the taxi ride home.
patom
Member
Tue Jan 30 06:44:18
When I had my appendix out 59 years ago. I wasn't given pain killers after the surgery. The opioid push is a fairly recent phenomenon fueled by big Pharma.
People aren't dying from pain that will ease with time. They are however dying from being hooked on pain killers that are not really necessary.
In 07 I had 3 trips to the hospital for surgery. On each occasion they wrote 30 day supply of percocete prescriptions. I never filled one of them out.
The last time I was in for 8 days. I hadn't taken any pain meds in the last 4 days I was there. The Doctor came in to discharge me and was writing a prescription for pain meds. I asked him if he read my charts and he said why. I told him if he had read the charts he would know that i hadn't needed any pain meds for 4 days. He wrote it anyway. I burned it when I got home.
I had my gaul bladder out when I was 52 laprascopicly. Late in the afternoon. I was released in the morning. Never needed any opioids.
The USA has been convinced that you should never feel a twinge of discomfort.
Paine is actually your friend. It is natures way of telling you to back off from what you are doing or to slow down until you heal.
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