Utopia Talk / Politics / james-damore-google--interview-autism

jergul large member	Sat Jan 06 21:26:47 http://www...-memo-interview-autism-regrets ames Damore conforms to the stereotype. He’s happy to admit he fits the mould of an awkward computer nerd and the moment we meet in a Silicon Valley coffee shop, he knocks a display stand of metal flasks that fall clattering to the floor. The commotion draws curious glances at the 6ft 3in software engineer, but Damore is used to strangers identifying him; he’s the guy who was fired by Google this summer after he argued that men are more psychologically suited to working in technology than women. No one recognises the woman standing beside him. She is Damore’s girlfriend: a feminist and a data scientist who works in tech. The couple make a surprising pair, as I discovered when we sat down and talked about some of the issues they usually avoid: the gender pay gap, whether boys are more suited to board games than girls, and the 10-page memo that turned Damore, almost overnight, into a pariah in their industry. The document he circulated, titled Google’s Ideological Echo Chamber, argued that psychological gender differences could explain why 80% of Google’s engineers, and most of the company’s leaders, are men. In one of the most inflammatory sections, Damore wrote that women, on average, have “higher levels of neuroticism”, something that may “contribute to the lower number of women in high stress jobs”. The purpose of the memo, he said, was to question Google’s approach to improving diversity, and to argue that the company’s leftwing bias silences alternative views. James Damore, Google, and the YouTube radicalization of angry white men Read more On 7 August, two days after his memo was leaked, Damore was fired for “advancing harmful gender stereotypes”. “I definitely didn’t think that it would explode like it did,” the 28-year-old says now. “I lost a lot of sleep and didn’t eat much.” We are in Mountain View, home to Google’s headquarters. Damore’s girlfriend has agreed to meet only after being assured that, like her, I disagree with her boyfriend’s views. She does not want to be identified or directly quoted: she is keen to remain in the shadows. Damore, meanwhile, has appeared to bask in the attention; in the months since he left Google, he has become a commentator on political issues that extend well beyond the tech industry, becoming one of the most polarising figures in Silicon Valley. At the same time, the experience has prompted some introspection. In the course of several weeks of conversation using Google’s instant messaging service, which Damore prefers to face-to-face communication, he opened up about an autism diagnosis that may in part explain the difficulties he experienced with his memo. He believes he has a problem understanding how his words will be interpreted by other people. Even now, still out of work and coming to the conclusion he has in effect been “blacklisted” from any major tech company, Damore finds it hard to comprehend how his opinions sparked such intense controversy. “My biggest flaw and strength may be that I see things very differently than normal,” he tells me. “I’m not necessarily the best at predicting what would be controversial.” ••• Words were never James Damore’s strong suit. As a child growing up in Romeoville, a suburb of Chicago, he took longer than usual to speak in complete sentences. His parents were concerned; it was several years before they discovered that their son’s verbal difficulties were accompanied by some extraordinary talents. By the age of about 11, Damore was coding adventure games on his TI-83 calculator. He also discovered chess. Within a year he was able to compete in four games of chess simultaneously while wearing a blindfold. He came second in a national chess tournament at 14, and in his teens became the world’s highest-ranking player in Rise of Nations, a computer strategy game. It wasn’t until his mid-20s, after completing research in computational biology at Princeton and MIT, and starting a PhD at Harvard, that Damore was diagnosed with autism, although he was told he had a milder version of the condition known as “high-functioning autism”. I’m not necessarily the best at predicting what would be controversial Psychiatrists, he says, assured him “it didn’t matter”. Yet one incident around that time suggests otherwise. Damore was on a two-day retreat for PhD students, which involved an annual tradition of inviting students to perform skits that lightly poked fun at professors. Damore’s performance included an awkwardly delivered masturbation joke that offended some female students. Two professors later wrote to students apologising for the “uneasiness, embarrassment or offense” he had caused. Damore still finds it hard to see why his skit was objectionable, but accepts he may view it differently, “because I’m on the spectrum”. I ask if he finds interacting with people difficult. He replies: “It’s hard for me to say what’s ‘difficult’ because I don’t know what the average is.” But he finds small talk tiring and can see behavioural traits in himself that may be linked to the condition, such as “having fewer friends due to maybe social awkwardness”. It was Damore’s outstanding performance in coding puzzles that attracted Google recruiters. He was offered a summer internship on a salary of more than $100,000 and, in December 2013, dropped out of Harvard to join the tech giant’s army of 25,000 mostly male engineers. Damore excelled at Google. His performance reviews were excellent, and he was promoted twice in two years. By early 2017, he was a senior engineer at the company, helping lead projects related to Google’s search engine. It is a role that, once stock is taken into account, can come with a salary of as much as $300,000. Then in June, on a work flight to China, Damore opened his laptop and started typing. “Google has several biases and honest discussion about these biases is being silenced by the dominant ideology,” he wrote. “What follows is by no means the complete story, but it’s a perspective that desperately needs to be told.” ••• The idea that any employee can challenge company orthodoxy is important in Silicon Valley, which eschews the hierarchies that dominate in other parts of corporate America. Nowhere is this more the case than Google, which cultivates open debate on thousands of internal discussion groups and online forums. Google also vigorously promotes a culture of “psychological safety” among its staff, believing it imperative that employees feel empowered to voice ideas without feeling embarrassed or judged. Company insiders say most employees are savvy enough to know it is unwise to take that mantra too literally. But when the organisers of internal meetings about Google’s policies on diversity and inclusion invited feedback, Damore decided to relay his thoughts. For some months, he had been harbouring grievances over the way Google was seeking to increase the number of minority and women employees, with mentoring schemes and hiring practices that Damore felt could be tantamount to reverse discrimination. Sundar Pichai, Google’s chief executive, said Damore’s memo violated the company’s code of conduct. Sundar Pichai, Google’s chief executive, said Damore’s memo violated the company’s code of conduct. Photograph: Akintunde Akinleye/Reuters He had also been doing a lot of personal research about politics. He knew he was a centrist with libertarian inclinations but, he tells me, he “wanted to understand the world and why people seem to have such different perspectives and opinions”. He had been reading writers such as Jonathan Haidt, the psychologist who argues people’s political beliefs derive not from reason but from their instincts and intuitions, and says more effort should be put into understanding opposing views. Damore also read more about evolutionary perspectives in psychology and anthropology, in books by academics including Steven Pinker and Avi Tuschman. The Google engineer bought a copy of Warren Farrell’s controversial 1993 book, The Myth of Male Power, known as the bible of the men’s rights movement. He watched The Red Pill, a documentary released last year in which the presenter Cassie Jaye abandons her attachment to feminism after being persuaded by Farrell and other men’s rights activists. But it was Jordan Peterson, a psychologist at the University of Toronto, who seems to have been particularly influential. Notorious in Canada for refusing to use gender-neutral pronouns for students who don’t identify as male or female, Peterson has acquired a huge following online by railing against political correctness. Damore watched his YouTube lectures and admired the professor. “He’s very good at articulating his thoughts,” he says. “Which I need to improve at.” ••• Damore’s memo was a jumble of ideas and proposals for Google, which he argued should “de-emphasize empathy” and be more accepting of conservative viewpoints. The document contained citations that led to Wikipedia entries and opinion articles, as well as several peer-reviewed psychological papers. His principal argument was about gender. He did not argue that men were better at maths or coding than women, as others have done. Instead, he wrote that men and women “on average” have different psychological traits, and these might explain why so few women choose engineering, and why so many men rise to the top of Google. Women, Damore argued, are generally more interested in “people rather than things” and have “more openness directed towards feelings and aesthetics”. Both of those factors, he said, could account for why women prefer jobs in “social or artistic areas” rather than, say, coding software. Damore also described women as more agreeable and less assertive than men, which he said results in women “generally having a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading”. Men, on the other hand, care less about work-life balance, he wrote, and are more likely to be motivated by status, driving them toward “higher-paying, less satisfying jobs”. Damore said these differences were “exactly what we would predict from an evolutionary psychology perspective” and played down the idea that they were the result of cultural or social influences. He seemed at least somewhat aware he was entering a minefield, stressing he was only talking about average psychological differences: “So you can’t say anything about an individual … I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority,” he wrote. “My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology.” Segregated Valley: the ugly truth about Google and diversity in tech Read more Damore emailed his memo to the organisers of Google’s diversity meetings in early July. When there was no response, he started sending the document to Google’s internal mailing lists and forums, eager for a reaction. The document spread like wildfire. Some Google employees supported Damore’s ideas, and some defended his right to voice them. But many staff were simply aghast. “You’re a misogynist and a terrible human,” one colleague emailed him. “I will keep hounding you until one of us is fired. Fuck you.” Leaked posts from Google’s internal message boards show that some of Damore’s most vocal critics were mid-ranking managers. “It has cost me at least two days of productivity and anger, and I am not even the target of its bigoted attacks,” said one manager, declaring he would never work with Damore again. Another said: “I intend to silence these views. They are violently offensive.” Many women who work elsewhere in tech were appalled by Damore’s memo, written from the heart of an industry that is notoriously male dominated. It came amid a cascade of reports about sexual harassment in Silicon Valley and a class-action lawsuit brought by women employed at Google alleging the company systematically pays women less than men for similar work. Damore’s girlfriend was overseas on 5 August, the day she received text messages from friends urging her to click on a link to the tech website Gizmodo, where the memo had been leaked under the headline “Here’s The Full 10-Page Anti-Diversity Screed Circulating Internally at Google”. Damore had not told her about his document, and her initial impression was that it was horrible. But after reading it a few times, and discussing it with him, her position mellowed; she even came to agree with one or two of his points. She maintains Damore was, for the most part, naive and wrong, but in the process of defending him she lost friends. She believes there was no need for Google to fire him; they could just as easily have taken corrective action. Google employees and visitors walk through the company’s headquarters in Mountain View. Google employees and visitors walk through the company’s headquarters in Mountain View. Damore’s memo angered colleagues at the company and beyond. Photograph: Smith Collection/Gado/Getty Images Damore is pursuing legal action against Google and has filed a complaint with the National Labor Relations Board. He points out his document was circulating for weeks, but he was only fired after the leak caused a public relations crisis. Google’s chief executive, Sundar Pichai, told staff that Damore was dismissed because parts of his memo violated the company’s code of conduct. “Our job is to build great products for users that make a difference in their lives,” he said. “To suggest a group of our colleagues have traits that make them less biologically suited to that work is offensive and not OK.” ••• What do psychologists make of the memo? Richard Lippa of California State University, whose work the engineer cited, tells me it contained a “reasonably accurate” summary of the research on psychological differences between men and women. “I think there are ways of arguing against James Damore, from political viewpoints, for ideological reasons, and you can criticise the science, too,” he says. “But the immediate response – ‘This is fake science’ – I don’t think that is doing any of us justice.” Lippa argues there is compelling evidence that women on average tend to be more “people-oriented”, whereas men are more “things-oriented”, a difference he believes could be highly relevant to career decisions. There’s every reason to think these gender differences in interests are caused by socialisation factors Janet Hyde, psychologist His research is similar to the “empathising-systemising theory” created by Simon Baron-Cohen, professor of developmental psychopathology at Cambridge University. He argues the female brain is “predominantly hard-wired for empathy”, whereas “the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems”. These differences, he says, may explain why more men choose professions in science, technology, engineering and mathematics. Baron-Cohen also proposes people on the autism spectrum have an “extreme male brain”. However, the methodologies and assumptions underlying these claims have proven highly controversial. Many psychologists would take issue with Damore’s interpretation of personality traits he associates with women, such as “agreeableness” and “neuroticism”. “Part of the issue is, he’s a software engineer,” says Janet Hyde, a psychologist at the University of Wisconsin. “He attached himself to what is actually a relatively small chunk of the psychological research literature and was unduly influenced by it.” Hyde is the author of a widely cited review of 46 meta-analyses of gender differences, which found that men and women are in fact similar on most, but not all, psychological variables, and concluded overinflated claims of gender differences “carry substantial costs in areas such as the workplace”. She adds: “There’s every reason to think these gender differences in interests are caused by socialisation factors.” Unfortunately for Damore, even some of the academics cited in his memo take issue with the context in which he used their research. Catherine Hakim, a British sociologist based at the thinktank Civitas, says that while her research on gender preference theory was correctly referenced, she feels his attempt to link career outcomes to psychological sex differences was “nonsense”. The Google campus in Mountain View, California. The tech company is known for promoting a culture of ‘psychological safety’ among its staff. Facebook Twitter Pinterest Google is known for promoting a culture of ‘psychological safety’ among its staff. Photograph: Jeff Chiu/AP Jüri Allik, an experimental psychologist from Estonia’s University of Tartu, says Damore went too far in making extrapolations from his own study into personality variations across countries; it is risky, he says, to link average personality traits to issues like career choices. Besides, Allik adds, the gender differences in his research were “very, very small”, if not “microscopic”. Damore also applied arguments in evolutionary psychology to explain why men outnumber women in senior roles at Google. He cited a paper arguing that men place more importance on the physical attractiveness of a potential mate, while women value a potential partner’s earning capacity. Hence, he wrote, men may be motivated to seek higher-paying jobs. Michael Wiederman, a psychologist at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine who conducted that research, tells me that Damore made a reasoned argument about why men could be more attuned to “climbing the hierarchy”: “The idea for evolutionary psychologists is that this is in our cognitive software.” But it is not hard to dismantle this line of argument. Cordelia Fine, a professor of psychology at the University of Melbourne, tells me these ideas fall into the common bias of assuming that “whatever we tend to see more often in males is what the job needs”. And while it is true, she says, that women tend to attach more importance to a partner’s resources, there are obvious reasons why. “Given that, not so long ago, women could be legally fired when they got married or became pregnant, it’s hardly surprising that women have historically cared more about a partner’s wealth.” Neither is it clear, Fine says, that any such psychological traits will be “set in stone for the rest of time”. Despite authoring two acclaimed books on gender, Fine, a leading feminist science writer, feels “torn in many different directions” by Damore. She believes his memo made many dubious assumptions and ignored vast swaths of research that show pervasive discrimination against women. But his summary of the differences between the sexes, she says, was “more accurate and nuanced than what you sometimes find in the popular literature”. Some of Damore’s ideas, she adds, are “very familiar to me as part of my day-to-day research, and are not seen as especially controversial. So there was something quite extraordinary about someone losing their job for putting forward a view that is part of the scientific debate. And then to be so publicly shamed as well. I felt pretty sorry for him.” ••• I tell Damore what the psychologists told me about his memo: that there is no agreement among the experts about the extent to which men and women have different psychological profiles; nor is there any consensus about whether any differences can be attributed to nature, nurture or a complex mix of the two. The psychologists do not agree on what, if any, impact these differences might have on career outcomes. Damore bristles when I accuse him of cherry-picking studies that support his view and ignoring the mountains of evidence that contradict it. “Even if I presented both sides equally, the very fact that I presented the ‘evil’ side would have caused controversy.” He still stands by the empirical claims in his memo, but regrets using the word “neuroticism”, a personality measure often used in psychological research but a term he now realizes has derogatory connotations. The psychologists’ critiques of his memo “have definitely added nuance” to his views, he adds. If he could go back in time, would he write the memo differently? “Yeah,” he replies. “Probably.” Damore also seems to question some of the decisions he took in the weeks after he was fired. One of his first moves was to take part in a YouTube interview with Jordan Peterson, the controversial Canadian psychologist who informed much of his thinking. Peterson dominates the conversation in the video, which mostly consists of long monologues from the professor punctuated by nods and short answers from Damore. Peterson urges Damore to take on a public profile to become a spokesperson for the cause. “Stick to your damn guns,” Peterson tells him. “You’re well-spoken, you’re quiet, you’re convincing, you’re rational, you come across as a decent guy.” He adds: “There’s no reason not to let people see who you are.” Jordan Peterson, a Canadian psychologist, talks with James Damore during a YouTube interview. Facebook Twitter Pinterest Jordan Peterson, a Canadian psychologist, talks with James Damore during a YouTube interview. Photograph: screengrab from youtube/screengrab/youtube Two days later, Damore went to meet Peter Duke, a photographer who had offered him a free “professional shoot” to replace the poor-quality images being used by the media. Duke brought a T-shirt on which Google’s logo had been rearranged to form the word “Goolag”, which Damore put on; he also posed with a cardboard sign Duke gave him, with the slogan “Fired for truth”. It was only later, Damore says, that he discovered Duke is known as “the Annie Leibovitz of the alt-right” for his sympathetic portraits of far-right activists and conspiracy theorists. Duke circulated the photos on social media under the caption “not all heroes wear capes”, fuelling a cascade of far-right memes and favourable Breitbart stories. Within a matter of days, the Washington Post had anointed Damore “one of the biggest celebrities on the conservative internet”. That reputation was compounded when, taking Peterson’s advice, Damore took part in interviews with several other YouTube stars, variously associated with contrarian, anti-feminist and “alt-right” movements. Watching these videos, I notice that Damore has a strange habit: when he disagrees with something an interviewer says, he does not interject but instead moves his head silently from side to side. His girlfriend noticed the same thing, and feels Damore’s interviewers were often using him to project their own opinions. Damore concedes now that he “wasn’t really skilled enough to push back on anything” in some interviews. It’s frustrating, he adds, that he’s now associated with the “alt-right” when he’s “more of a centrist”. He admits he did not look too deeply into Duke’s background when the photos were taken, and asks me not to publish the image of him in a “Goolag” T-shirt with this article. “I can definitely see how it was damaging, but it was a free professional photo shoot and I wasn’t really familiar with politics then,” he says. “I was pretty busy and ignorant.” Was his interview with the “alt-right” personality Milo Yiannopoulos an error? “It’s hard to say,” he replies. “I don’t really know what the long-term consequences of any of my actions are.” ••• In September, Damore tweeted: “The KKK is horrible and I don’t support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. ‘Grand Wizard’?” The tweet was accompanied by an online poll in which Damore invited other users to express their views. There was an immediate outcry amid headlines such as “Fired Google Memo Guy Also Has Bad Opinions About KKK”. Damore deleted the tweet and acknowledges he badly misjudged how it would be viewed but has not stopped tweeting about controversial issues such as race relations and cultural appropriation. Wary of making another mistake, he now keeps a document of draft tweets that he refines before posting. His girlfriend implores him to show her these drafts, but he does not like to be told what to do and values using his 91,000 followers as a sounding board: “I try to leverage my Twitter following to hear other perspectives and correct me when I’m wrong.” I don’t really know what the long-term consequences of any of my actions are His tweets are not always provocative; sometimes they are more reflective. Recently, he posted: “Laughter is often used to show that even though a norm was broken, things are OK.” Another declared: “Like a bird, society needs a functional left and right wing. If one is too dominant, our trajectory will be biased and we’ll inevitably fall.” Like many people in technology, and like technology itself, Damore explains a complex social world through seemingly logical systems, patterns and numbers. It can seem like a rational way of thinking but it can also lead to conclusions that lack subtlety or sophistication. The same cognitive patterns underlie the algorithms that power social media, where complicated issues around gender and psychology are reduced to simple shorthand. Damore believes technology shaped the way he was judged. “Journalists and commentators were incentivised to distort facts to generate outrage,” he says. Meanwhile, on social media, Damore believes users wanted “to hear certainty, causing the most extreme voices to be the loudest”. Platforms such as YouTube, Facebook and Twitter can be perilous places for anyone wanting to express a view on a sensitive topic. Damore’s experience suggests they may involve particular challenges for some people on the autism spectrum. He does not once, however, use his autism to excuse his actions. He is fiercely resistant to portraying himself as any kind of victim, and says he never informed Google of his autism diagnosis. “I’m not sure you’re expected to,” he says, “or how I would even do that.” James Damore in San Francisco. ‘Being on the spectrum means we’ll occasionally step on people’s toes.’ James Damore in San Francisco. ‘My biggest flaw and strength may be that I see things very differently than normal,’ he says. Photograph: Winni Wintermeyer for the Guardian One in 68 children in the US has autism spectrum disorder, according to federal estimates. And while there are no reliable figures on the prevalence of autism in Silicon Valley, anecdotally, people in the industry say it is common. Experts are wary of the harmful myth that all people on the spectrum are geniuses, not least when research in the UK indicates only 16% of autistic people are in full-time paid work. But there is no doubt that some autistic people have exceptional abilities and strengths that can attract companies like Google, Facebook and Microsoft. Bryna Siegel, a psychiatrist who runs the not-for-profit Autism Center of Northern California, says she has come across many engineers who have been fired by big tech companies after misunderstanding social cues or unwritten norms in an office. “Employers need to be accommodating when they hire people who are on the autism spectrum,” she says. That includes, Siegel says, being more forgiving of autistic employees who inadvertently offend people. Company-wide debates of the kind Google encourages, she adds, can be especially difficult for some autistic people to navigate. One such discussion appears to have contributed to the downfall of another autistic Google engineer who does not want to be identified because, like Damore, he is still looking for work. He was fired last year in the wake of a dispute with a female colleague and unrelated comments he made at a company-wide gathering themed around LGBT rights. Women say they quit Google because of racial discrimination: 'I was invisible' Read more The engineer queried the use of non-binary pronouns during the meeting and bluntly questioned whether gender is on a spectrum. After complaints from several employees, the engineer was given a disciplinary warning and banned from future gatherings. He alleges his dismissal is explained by Google’s failure to understand how autism causes him to talk or act in ways that others misinterpret. Google declined to comment on his dismissal. “Fellow employees need to be educated that being on the spectrum means we’ll occasionally step on people’s toes,” the engineer tells me. “Being on the spectrum gives some of us unique experiences that lead us in unusual directions, ideologically. If Google can’t handle that, it needs to depoliticise itself.” Damore argues that Google’s focus on avoiding “micro-aggressions” is “much harder for someone with autism to follow”. But he stops short of saying autistic employees should be given more leniency if they unintentionally offend people at work. “I wouldn’t necessarily treat someone differently,” he explains. “But it definitely helps to understand where they’re coming from.” I ask Damore if, looking back over the last few months, he feels that his difficult experience with the memo and social media may be related to being on the spectrum. “Yeah, there’s definitely been some self-reflection,” he says. “Predicting controversies requires predicting what emotional reaction people will have to something. And that’s not something that I excel at – although I’m working on it.”
Aeros Member	Sat Jan 06 23:13:19 This entire article reads like a struggle session, where the author tries to paint Demore as a misguided mental deficient that is in need of reeducation. He is not a Nazi, simply a mentally challenged young man who needs compassion and understanding in order to see things our way.
Dukhat Member	Sun Jan 07 19:42:00 This guy showed up on my youtube feed in an advertisement for Prager University. Ironically, they never show up on the conservative channels; just the liberal ones. He talked for a long time and made himself out to be the victim. http://www...why_is_youtube_having_tons_of/ Pretty much breaks down what they really are. Even with the pro-conservative editing; this guy looks like he has Asperger's.
jergul large member	Mon Jan 08 04:24:24 We figured it out then. A guy on the autism spectrum wrote something autistic. His employer was unaware of his medical condition and may not have dismissed him if it had been known.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 12:11:23 Just because he is autistic does not mean he is wrong. It is well known women are far more agreeable then men when it comes to negotiating. its part of what perpetuates the "gender pay gap". We also know that in general their interests tend to diverge from men in a variety of subjects and the way they approach problems is psychological different. Nothing he said in his memo was fundamentally wrong. It was just problematic for some peoples deeply held beliefs.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 12:21:08 And Google, less interested in fostering free discussion, decided to punish someone for communicating on an internal message board - instead of the ill-intentioned leaker. But sure Cuckhat, someone losing their livelihood for wrongthink isn't a victim, everyone else is a victim for having to read it.
jergul large member	Mon Jan 08 12:43:56 Aeros We have already debunked everything you just said. Now we have the biographical context for understanding why the person was so out to lunch. Forwyn Did you read the article? Anyway. No.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 13:14:36 Ask if Cuckhat read the article. Anyway. Yeah. Fired for wrongthink.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 13:21:14 The thing about cuckservatives is that they lack critical thinking skills which makes them incapable of discerning truth from fiction. The mainstay of conservative media is to mix in a little truth to push a big lie or to exaggerate small events in order to create a victimization narrative for uneducated, white males. This is an example of the latter. For example, Forwyn is the typical cuckservative. He follows the talk-radio meme of pretending to be moderate that only became enraged after the Democrats did something morally reprehenisble in their eyes. This is basically the very basis of today's reactionary conservative where every horrible thing they do and enable Trump in doing is justified because Democrats "violated their rights." In this case, James Damore was fired because he used bad science in attributing hiring differences to biology: that women are wired from birth to not have the skills suitable for technology. This is something that does not have scientific consensus behind it whatsoever. He mixed in a big lie, treated it as a universally scientific truth, and then proceeded to make an entire argument on it mixing in a bunch of stylistic choices to show that he wasn't "sexist." Now he's pretending to be a victim of the "thought police." Anyone with half a brain that explored the issue would see his entire polemic for what it is: a troll that would only fly as "truth" on alt-right message boards. It was an argument premised on a dubious assumption dressed in "respectful debate." The real lesson here is, if you are going to address an issue that is controversial; you need to be absolutely sure to have your facts right. Him acting like the victim only flies with the alt-right who have nothing to fall back on except white resentment politics. This guy is just a fucking troll trying to milk his 15 minutes with retards like Forwyn.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 13:23:36 This makes Forwyn so upset. Here's a hint retard: the largest plurality of workers at google is still white males. Just because you would never be able to get a job at google doesn't mean it's because of systemic bias against white males.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 13:26:13 I forgot to mention that another thing that makes Damore a hero to the alt-right is his complete lack of empathy: a symptom of his autism. These idiots have created a whole world-view where they never have to incorporate other people's views into their thinking because everyone else is "the enemy." Another feather in Damore's cap with the alt-right red pillers.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 13:28:26 "I don't like his argument" "He was fired because he used bad science" "thought police" Yes, he was fired because of wrongthink. Your angry monologue doesn't change this - unless you're implying that Damore was the first person ever on Google internal message boards to make a post not based in universally accepted studies. Somehow I doubt that. And since you're trying to flip this as me being upset: nah. Google is free to fire their employees for whatever reason they want. We're also free to criticize them and avoid their products when they have their priorities totally fucked.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 13:33:35 You're so fucking stupid. You do realize he wasn't fired for the memo right? He was fired because he doubled down on being a victim and the type of overgeneralization that had undermined the entire memo in the first place. Guy was trolling hard and now wants to play the "I'm a white guy telling the truth and am a victim of the social justice warriors." Obviously, you don't believe this because you spend all your time on conservative media bullshit sites. Sucks for you to be helpless. Get a clue and join us in the real world if you ever want to move forward in your life you helpless retard.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 13:43:38 I don't spend any time on conservative media sites and even I am deeply concerned by what I see as a cultural and ideological opposing of conservative opinions. I am even more deeply concerned by lumping in culturally understood "truths" as somehow part of an ideological divide between Conservatives and Liberals. For example, the accepted "truth" that there are only two genders. That ideas should be debated and not silenced, or that men and women are biologically different in more ways then just their reproduction methods. Believing men and women to have equal opportunity is very different from saying they should have equal outcomes. One is Egalitarianism and the other is Communism. Liberals are supposed to be Egalitarian (which I am), not Marxist (which I am not). Somehow along the way the two got combined. Behind the lefts moral panic over race, gender and trump is lurking a totalitarian monster. Its also not a new monster. Its one we know well. His name is Stalin. Or Pol Pot. Or Mao. Different faces for the same vile ideology that took people who disagreed with it and forced them to publicly confess their mental ineptitude before whisking them away for reeducation and/or death.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 13:44:11 What a colossal idiot you are. The memo was leaked on a Saturday. He was fired on Monday. Nothing to do with doubling down, he was immediately fired because of twittertards like you screeching all weekend. You're the kind of tard that cheers enthusiastically after a black diversity officer is fired for saying a demographic group isn't a monolith; that they can all have different experiences. "muh fukken white males"
hood Member	Mon Jan 08 14:20:39 Aeros, the memo had a valid few points in it, but those were wrapped up in just factually wrong bullshit. It's not like he penned a bunch of opinions that people didn't like - he had some valid opinions, some valid facts, and some (many) invalid "facts" (because he was wrong). I would hope that most of the outrage were focused on the remarkably retarded (hah! Legit now, apparently) "facts" that the author got wrong. Unfortunately, we all know that wasn't the case. Should he have been fired? Eh. Don't really care too much. But the social media mob makes it pretty hard to keep as an employee anyone who gets said mob feeling frothy.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 14:39:20 Sure. And if it was bullshit, call him on it. Counter the arguments, and he might very well realize where he went wrong. Yet that was not what happened. The response to the memo was outraged shrieking and hyperbolic posturing followed by summary firing within 48 hours. And that fundamentally is very very dangerous. Nothing he said was fundamentally wrong in the sense that he made no understood immorality. He did not for example, suggest that all women should be denied even the possibility of applying to google (Quite the opposite, the memos stated intent was to help more women apply) nor did we get into arguments that what is really at issue here is the Jews and if they would just gas themselves we would all be better off for it. The issue here is that the left has begun using institutions of power. The State, Corporations, Social Media networks to institute a form of ideological purity, backed on tautilogical arguments with basis upon deeply held beliefs rather then facts. Boiling down to essentially "I am Right, I know I am right, and therefore anyone who disagrees with me on any point, is default wrong." They go to the final extreme of using power structures to insure the wrong people are forced to "not be wrong, or at a minimum, publicly refute their wrongness". That is amazingly dangerous. Being done I am sure for all the best intentions. Which are nothing more then the paving stones of the road to hell.
jergul large member	Mon Jan 08 14:40:40 If you read the article you would know there was a palace revolt with a number of people making it clear that either the author had to go, or they would leave. So more a workplace mob, thant a social media storm.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 14:44:18 I think in the 15(?) or so years I have been on the board, I have never once given a hint of being part of the Breitbart crowd or having any love for Republicans and so on. I am not a Right winger by any stretch but I do not recognize the brand of liberalism being preached these days. I might diagree with Conservatives on a number of issues. But I do not want to see lynch mobs forming in the public square to drag conservatives out to the hanging tree and demand they renounce their beliefs or else get the rope. This sort of mentality is in direct opposition the fundamental values of a Democratic society. They are also not liberal and will inevitably tear the social fabric of the country apart as eventually one side or the other will push too far and the blowback will begin.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 14:55:47 "a number of people making it clear that either the author had to go, or they would leave." Good. Bye. Ideological puritans have no place in a creative, allegedly free-thinking environment.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 15:03:38 If Damore had simply voiced the opinions Aeros said, he would not have been fired. It's as simple as that. There is no thought police.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jan 08 15:07:50 He did, and he was. You're attributing guilt retroactively based on tweets that occurred after his firing. Your timeline is off.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 15:08:03 Damore: Most balanced @guardian piece on #GoogleMemo. I brought up personality differences to de-gender workplace issues and diagnose the root cause. Alas, none of the criticisms addressed testosterone→systemizing→career preference. ^ I think you shouldn't condone the personalisation of the debate, as if your particular cognitive traits have a bearing on the validity of your arguments and how well supported by evidence they were. That's part of the broader phenomenon of identity politics that you oppose. ^ Damore: Yes, that's dangerous. I don't agree with the entire article, but at least it was more balanced. I didn’t see this as an important article and I think the idea was to cast you as some kind of alien species being “on the spectrum.” I’m not on the spectrum and moment your memo came out I declared I’d co-sign. Valid argumentation needs no excuse. ^ Damore: I agree that the base arguments of #GoogleMemo should be separated from me being "on the spectrum." I hope readers didn't get that impression http://twi...s/933075513375186944impression
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 15:08:54 http://www...re-him/?utm_term=.42a0cb6f2619 Evidently, Damore disagrees. To him, it is imperative to acknowledge the appeal of a neat name such as Grand Wizard: Doing so will prevent Klan recruitment. “It’s like teaching your child to be responsible about drugs and sex without addressing the fact that they can be fun,” he dug deeper. “If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of [Dungeons & Dragons] terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK.” This, of course, makes no sense. The Klan chose its nomenclature not out of a love of fantasy but to disguise its terrorism with elaborate rituals. And you can play Dungeons & Dragons not by joining the Klan, but by just playing Dungeons & Dragons. Yet it’s possible Damore isn’t simply being dumb. His behavior on Twitter has a lot in common with his behavior at Google over the summer. Damore, who describes himself in his Twitter bio as a “nerd centrist,” seems obsessed with marketing his status as a member of the minority. He makes provocative statements bemoaning the burdens of being an “outsider” — and then uses the inevitable backlash to his brazen offensiveness as more evidence that he is being persecuted. What Damore really is, as his recent tweets prove, is an annoying provocateur. He has bad ideas and expresses them in even worse ways. His defenders backed him because his story seemed to bear out a point they already wanted to prove. Let’s hope they don’t get fooled again." ***************** Dude is a troll. People are trying to draw too much from a guy that just tries to get a rise out of people and then acts the part of a victim. LOL at all of you for falling for this retarded shit.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 15:11:14 "There is no thought police." Maybe not in the US. There is however thought police in the UK and Canada, and Germany is about to do it too.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 15:12:16 Btw Damore won the popular vote at google more convincingly than Hillary and Brexit, a clear majority thought it was wrong to fire him. That is if discussing scientific studies should be conducted at the whims of the lynch mob.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 15:17:24 "Maybe not in the US." I would say when it comes to things like this google idiocy you Americans have far less protection than we do in Sweden. You only have protection from the state in matters of speech, we have protection from our employers. None of us have protection from the Internet mob.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 15:21:47 What popular vote was that? I have friends at google. Most are white males. A few of them know Damore and have basically told me the same thing: dude was weird and was always trying to bait people. If this was an isolated case, then I might believe Damore; but he's cosntantly played the Trumpian card of provoking people and then acting like the victim when people respond. It's fucking retarded that anybody falls for it especially when it's clear that this guy is socially and emotionally retarded. Google execs were probably like, "We respect your right to have an opinion but we would kindly suggest you hold off on commentating for a while as we have had complaints about your memo and their credibility concering the "science" you referenced." James Damore: "I'M BEING VICTIMIZED. IMMA MARCH ON YO ASS." Google: Ok, let's fire this retard. ***************** Given the way he's behaved this was almost certainly what happened.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 15:21:50 FUCKING LOL http://www...criminating-against-white-men/ James Damore sues Google for discriminating against white men The fired engineer says the tech giant uses "illegal hiring quotas" to fill its staff with women and minority candidates. The ex-Google employee who became known for writing a controversial 3,300-word memo that argued the gender gap in tech is largely due to women and men being "biologically" different, is suing the search giant for discriminating against white men. James Damore, who was fired by Google after writing the memo, said the company mistreats, punishes and terminates employees who don't adhere to the "Googley way," a set of policies around bias sensitivity, social justice and diverse hiring, according to a court filing. "Google employs illegal hiring quotas to fill its desired percentages of women and favored minority candidates, and openly shames managers of business units who fail to meet their quotas -- in the process, openly denigrating male and Caucasian employees as less favored than others," reads the court filing. Google didn't immediately respond to request for comment. This lawsuit comes as gender inequality and sexual discrimination has become a front-and-center national conversation. From the #MeToo movement to outrage over the lack of female keynote speakers at this week's annual Consumer Electronics Show, people are speaking out about how women and people of color are consistently marginalized in the working world. Silicon Valley companies have grappled over the past couple of years with how to increase workforce diversity in an industry dominated by white men and permeated with corporate cultures that seem biased against women and people of color. Google, Facebook, Apple and other tech companies now regularly release diversity reports, highlighting low percentages of women and minority employees, with few moving up the management chain. Damore is being represented by Dhillon Law Group, which is seeking class action status on behalf of Damore, another ex-employee David Gudeman and "others similarly situated against Google for its discriminatory employment practices." The suit was filed in Santa Clara Superior Court in Northern California. "Not only was the numerical presence of women celebrated at Google solely due to their gender, but the presence of Caucasians and males was mocked with "boos" during company-wide weekly meetings," the filing reads. "Plaintiffs bring this action to vindicate their legal rights, and to stop Google from repeating these practices against other employees or prospective employees now, and in the future." Google was also sued by three former female employees over pay discrimination in September. The former employees allege the company paid women less than men for doing similar work. This case is also seeking class action status.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 15:27:00 http://en....al_Echo_Chamber#On_the_science Some commentators in the academic community expressed broad support, saying he had gotten the science right, such as Debra Soh, a sexual neuroscientist at York University in Toronto;[40][41] Jordan Peterson, Professor of Psychology at the University of Toronto;[3][42] Lee Jussim, a professor of social psychology at Rutgers University;[43][44][45][46] and Geoffrey Miller, an evolutionary psychology professor at University of New Mexico.[44] David P. Schmitt, former professor of psychology at Bradley University;[44][47] said that the memo was right on average groups differences, but one cannot use it to judge individuals. Others said that he had got the science wrong and relied on data that was suspect, outdated, irrelevant, or otherwise flawed; these included Gina Rippon, chair of cognitive brain imaging at Aston University;[48] Adam Grant, an organizational psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania;[49] evolutionary biologist Suzanne Sadedin;[30][50][51] Rosalind Barnett, a psychologist at Brandeis University, and Caryl Rivers, a professor of journalism at Boston University.[52] To anyone who "feels" one way or another about the subject. Like Hood and Dukhat. Let's say that there are two sides who disagree and discuss, you know like you would expect. There is no room within the discourse and science to fire anyone for what Damore wrote.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 15:42:45 http://www...vs-Google-Class-Action-Lawsuit actual lawsuit he just filed today.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:01:24 It was bound to happen, ID politics was never sustainable.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:04:34 Maybe soon we can talk about stuff again?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:04:54 Without the frothing at the mouth mob wanting to deport or fire you.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:05:11 #crushsocialism
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 16:05:53 The lawyers pulling no punches. "Google’s open hostility for conservative thought is paired with invidious discrimination on the basis of race and gender, barred by law. Google’s management goes to extreme—and illegal—lengths to encourage hiring managers to take protected categories such as race and/or gender into consideration as determinative hiring factors, to the detriment of Caucasian and male employees and potential employees at Google."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:11:44 What do you think will come of it?
Pillz Member	Mon Jan 08 16:19:59 Nothing. Or precedence for Google and others to continue their discriminatory practices legally. White men have no place in the 21st century.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 16:33:18 "To anyone who "feels" one way or another about the subject. Like Hood and Dukhat. Let's say that there are two sides who disagree and discuss, you know like you would expect. There is no room within the discourse and science to fire anyone for what Damore wrote." If Damore was acting in good faith sure but he had a history of being provacative and trolling. Also his essay was shit. It read like a bad high school grade paper where the very basis of his arguments was based on the idea that biologically women were unfit for tech. He did no attribute any granularity to this idea (that the science was divided and that at best it applied to averages and not individuals); he just took with it as the truth and ran with it and is acting like he's a martyr for free speech and science now when he's really just an overgrown kid with an ego problem.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:34:06 http://www.facebook.com/dhillonlaw/videos/1565136140242243/ Press conference for the lawsuit.
Pillz Member	Mon Jan 08 16:34:18 Cuckhat still thinks the memo was anti women in tech
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 16:37:18 "What do you think will come of it?" Seems very similar to the case of Abigail Fishers: http://www...s-affirmative-action-case-is-r "Blum started his one-man nonprofit, the Project on Fair Representation, in 2005. The organization is funded by deep-pocketed conservatives to, according to its website, influence "jurisprudence, public policy, and public attitudes regarding race and ethnicity" in voting, education, contracting and employment. To do so, Blum — who is not a lawyer — helps arrange pro bono representation to fight race-based policies that were meant to address inequalities." "According to a Reuters profile, Blum has brought at least a dozen lawsuits against such programs and laws — including four that made it to the Supreme Court. He has two on the current docket, Fisher and the Shelby County, Ala., case challenging a key provision of the Voting Rights Act." "In the Fisher case, while the young woman may have lent her name to the lawsuit, the case before the Court has very little to do with her. Her name appears just five times in the thousands of words that make up the body of the complaint. She has already gone on to graduate from Louisiana State University, her second choice, and is working in finance at a firm in Austin." "Asked by a news reporter what harm she had suffered, she cited only her inability to tap into UT's alumni network and possibly missing out on a better first job. If she wins, Fisher seeks only the return of her application fee and housing deposit — a grand total of $100 in damages." ******************** Same shit to keep people like Obaminated and Forwyn voting Republican while they are actually being fleeced by these same Republicans.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 16:42:05 The Fisher lawsuit failed because she could not actually prove how she was harmed by the universities actions. Actual harm to the plaintiff is necessary for a civil action after all. In this case the harm to Damore is totally self evident. He just now needs to prove google was actual motivated by illegal animus to his gender, race or political affiliations.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:43:38 It is not anyone's job to provide nuance for people who are unwilling or unable to do it themselves. Very few here qualify, Hood maybe. There is this thing on the left currently (in sweden as well) where you put into question or make an issue of your opponents mental health. Diverting the discussion and only serving to further stigmatize people with actual mental health issues. It is OK though because muh social justice, ends justify the means.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 16:44:39 Is it? We only know what he blabbed about online. What's more likely is that he kept being provacative for no reason and became a liability for google. He knew he was getting fired and filed a complaint with the national labor relations board the day before it happened. He's a professional troll. More power to him; he gets to be a hero to other trolls. But to most of the world he's still a fucking retard.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 16:46:15 Which is to say his firing had to do with the things that happened after the memo because this guy is obviously incapable of changing or admitting guilt as an autistic retard. So he kept on being a fucking ass and enough people complained that Google decided they had less to lose firing him. Otherwise they would've fired him much sooner after the date of the memo being leaked.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 16:49:18 And employers normally do not publicly disclose why they fire someone out of respect for that person. James Damore is bringing a whole world of hurt down on himself if he pushes things too far as Google's in-house counsel knew that this retard might push things if he got fired. Damore clearly has no filter and probably has an incredibly long email trail as well as tons of complaints against him personally. He'll never be able to find work again and probably have to a year or two being a tool for alt-right activists before they drop him. The next time we'll hear from him is when he ends up dead of an overdose.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:49:58 ^Alternate reality loon, does not qualify.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:51:57 A more articulate version of The Children basically, but with the same basic cognitive dysfunctions.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:52:33 Shit I lefted you and stigmatized you for mental health. Sorry.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:53:11 Fucking gook. There I balanced it with some right wing racism.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 16:56:39 It is hilarious that some raging imbecile is saying Damore, who went into the fray, stood up for what he believed and got fired for it, is a troll, "has no filter" etc. and so on behind his anonymity whilest no filter smearing everyone as nazi/alt right trolls. LULZ :)
hood Member	Mon Jan 08 17:02:17 "To anyone who "feels" one way or another about the subject. Like Hood and Dukhat." What? I'm going based off of established science. There wasn't much science in his document (mostly opinion), but what was there either wasn't well researched or just wasn't accurate. "There is no room within the discourse and science to fire anyone for what Damore wrote." When have I ever supported firing people at the behest of an angry mob? I don't care too much in this case, as the memo pretty clearly created a problematic work environment (which, while illogical, existed nonetheless), but this is a pretty specific case wherein the item of public outcry very clearly impacted work and was related to work. If this guy was being fired for attending a Trump rally, I'd be pretty firmly behind him. "There is this thing on the left currently (in sweden as well) where you put into question or make an issue of your opponents mental health." If you're trying to attach me to this, you're barking up the wrong tree. I insult people for being stupid, not mental health. In fact, I tend to be pretty silent when mental health comes up for reasons I keep pretty close to my chest.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:12:16 The memo has citations. The wiki page (and the following debates and articles) indicate that a fair amount of experts in the field agree with him and some disagree. As for the rest, not at all, I think to the extent that you and I disagree we can do that without posturing. It was wrong of me to mention your name and Dukhat in the same sentence. You should be spoken of in different paragraphs.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:18:48 That is basically my only response to you Hood, what you, I, lulzgul and seb think about the research is not relevant. Damore is in fact more qualified since he was studying systems biology. But the fact remains that actual experts agreed and disagreed with him. So what he go wrong or right, is not nor was it ever relevant to what transpired. This was never about the contents of the memo. It was about how it mapped (or not) to peoples understanding of the world. What exactly did he get so wrong, though?
jergul large member	Mon Jan 08 17:21:38 Research? You mean some scribblings he jotted down on an international flight?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:26:44 He himself has said he regret using "neuroticism" which is an established term in psychology for people who deal poorly with stress (women > men), but colloquially it resonate poorly with people unfamiliar with the field. Unfortunate, but correct. He said nothing about women being less suitable or dumber. What is interesting here is that people with autism (men 20 times > women) are a nice fit for a lot of tech jobs (like programming). Very little human contact, repetitive work and numbers galore.
Pillz Member	Mon Jan 08 17:27:15 Nimatzo obviously meant he was more qualified than anybody but our local fisher man
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:32:49 Well lulzgul if you read the actual memo, there are clickable links that take to you scientific articles, wiki articles and news articles. Benefits of not having read the gizmodo article. http://ass...s-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf
hood Member	Mon Jan 08 17:36:44 "It was wrong of me to mention your name and Dukhat in the same sentence" This pretty much clears it up. ;p "The memo has citations. The wiki page (and the following debates and articles) indicate that a fair amount of experts in the field agree with him and some disagree." I wouldn't try to cite any sort of degree of agreeableness in experts and I wouldn't trust a random Wiki page that has a clear indicator that it might not be balanced (I literally didn't know that was a thing until seeing the link you provided). I would also temper your sentiment that the memo had citations. It did, but the number of claims made in the memo quickly outpaced citations and the citations were not necessarily high quality (a lot of wikipedia, a lot of op-eds from internet newspapers; not as much actual scientific references). I wouldn't disagree that experts are conflicted about the nature of psyche. But that they are conflicted sort if belabors the point I was making: the memo didn't get that much of the science based on what is currently accepted. Am I willing to accept science that currently is considered incorrect with the proper amount of research and evidence? Certainly. But without that evidence, it is only logical to not so much ignore as set aside (for the actual researchers) such ideas when discussing reality. One of the more ostentatious claims was that men made female at birth still identify as male. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1421517/ This paper might initially support the claim made, but a sample size of 16, including wildly varying control conditions makes for an incredibly unimpressive study, especially considering over half of the "females" were actually taking testosterone and most of those who declared male did so after learning of their true birth sex. To cite something like this as evidence for the statement that men born as female decide to revert back to male would be unconditionally stupid; however, there was no citation for this claim anyway.
hood Member	Mon Jan 08 17:37:51 "That is basically my only response to you Hood, what you, I, lulzgul and seb think about the research is not relevant. Damore is in fact more qualified since he was studying systems biology. But the fact remains that actual experts agreed and disagreed with him. So what he go wrong or right, is not nor was it ever relevant to what transpired. This was never about the contents of the memo. It was about how it mapped (or not) to peoples understanding of the world." This I would agree with.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:52:53 Well if you have followed the debates and articles in the wake of the memo you will know many experts have sided with him and co-signed his claims. The wiki article is balanced, it has citations. I won't dismiss wiki articles based on them being "wiki articles", they vary in quality. Contentious topics on Wikipedia are more balanced and often of better quality because of it. So 1 line where the claim may be strained. I agree it is not even that relevant to the central claim, that biology can not be separated from gender identity.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Jan 08 17:54:21 Well then we agree where it matters :)
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 19:00:53 Sad pathetic loser. Couldn't make an argument so had to go ad hoc.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 19:04:34 Diagnosing people's mental state when you think fake alt-right internet terms like "virtue-signalling" is a real thing and defines "empathy." Fucking go live life and get a job in the real world. Damore thought he could treat people at his workplace like a troll in an internet chat room and go this ass handed to him. Get out of your bubble you stupid shit.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 19:20:50 Anyways back to the real reason he got fired. "The memo has citations. The wiki page (and the following debates and articles) indicate that a fair amount of experts in the field agree with him and some disagree." You're a fucking idiot. When's the last time you wrote a peer-reviewed scientific paper idiot? Yeah, never. And again how did you address the point where he treated points that ARE STILL BEING DEBATED as definitive fact. The problem was he treated controversial ideas within the scientific community as facts and premised his entire argument on it. When they told him to back off, he acted the part of the victim. "What is interesting here is that people with autism (men 20 times > women) are a nice fit for a lot of tech jobs (like programming). Very little human contact, repetitive work and numbers galore." LoL, you're so fucking sutpid and have clearly never programmed. Most programmers barely have to deal with numbers. And while many of the lone-wolf hacker stereotypes are popularized in literature; most programmers works on teams that constantly have to coordinate and update their goals with each using tools like Trello. The idea that you can become a millionaire or billionaire off your own app is something that happens much more infrequenlty in the real world than you would imply. Of course you are making the same dumbass generalizations that got Damore into trouble. And like him, you are a fucking dumbass. "So 1 line where the claim may be strained. I agree it is not even that relevant to the central claim, that biology can not be separated from gender identity." No, his whole paper is filled with dumb sh*t like that. It wouldn't have passed muster for publishing in the scientific community. And the paper's not why he got fired anyways. Imagine you are a female programmer at google. Some idiot just wrote a paper that basically said you are biologically inferior to men at programming and every alt-right retard on campus is making jokes behind your back and in front of you about it. This in addition to the fact that many male programmers think you are only there because of "affirmative action" and "reverse discrimination" anyways. James Damore has just given these retards new wind beneath their wings. Most women would complain loudly to anyone they could and most employers would fire the person in question. Just because from a purely intellectual perspective, James Damore's ideas have some merit; given the context of where he worked, the fact that women are so under-represented in tech, and how controversial not only his conclusions but also his assumptions were: any company would've at least told him to back off or let things quiet down for a little bit. He clearly didn't and felt like he was a martyr for free speech. He's not. He's just a retard who probably developed his societal cues in an internet chat room where that kind of non-empathic, black-and-white thinking flies. Context matters and Employers don't need an ironclad case to fire someone. You would know if you ever worked a decent job. @ Nimatzo. Now go fuck yourself retard.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 19:32:52 I didn't realize Damore was fired so fast. Most articles say the memo was written in July but apparently it was leaked much later in August and then he was fired within days of it. So my bad on that. The fact that he was fired so quickly is more serious than I had credited. But still workplaces are suppose to be collegial places and if you upset enough of the other workers; you're gone. That's why you never talk about politics or religion or sex with anyone other than your best friends in a private setting (that or an online chat room). I don't think this guy's freedom of speech was threatened. It was the fact he made some leaps of logic based on a faulty premise. There was indeed a mob of disgruntled employees that wanted to see him go but that's the right of private employers to discharge someone who upsets the workplace. The lesson here is not about freedom of speech but in respecting certain boundaries when in the work-place. There was a time and place for what he said and he entered a grey era at his own peril.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 19:48:36 Basically what I said happened with female employees did: http://www...d-engineer-anti-diversity-memo "Unsurprisingly, the memo has been met with plenty of anger and concern. Many people who’ve discussed it publicly or in conversations that have since been leaked to the press seem to agree that its arguments are faulty and dangerous. Furthermore, many Google employees find it particularly troubling that Damore felt empowered to widely share such harmful views of gender on the company’s internal employee forum." "Sarah Adams @sadams007 Internal article circulated at work today describing how gender rep gap in SW is due to biological differences btwn men/women." "One engineer reportedly wrote that the memo had caused “irreparable harm … to 1000s of Googlers,” and that “going forward, I cannot — and I will not — work with James Damore.” He went on to detail the ways in which he would not engage with or interact with Damore, his code, or his product development." ..... "Had Google been willing to tolerate the posting of the memo in the spirit of supporting free speech, such tolerance would undoubtedly have been a deal breaker for many of the company’s employees who were unsettled by the notion that it could embolden more of their co-workers to advocate for sexist or racist views."
pillz Member	Mon Jan 08 19:51:33 "Had Google been willing to tolerate the posting of the memo in the spirit of supporting free speech, such tolerance would undoubtedly have been a deal breaker for many of the company’s employees who were unsettled by the notion that it could embolden more of their co-workers to advocate for sexist or racist views." 1) nothing sexist about Damore's memo 2) Those things are illegal for business to engage in... what the fuck were the employees worried about, LITERALLY HITLER?
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 21:03:27 Ive finished reading the lawsuit. Hoooooooollllllllly shit. If even half the shit alleged here is true Google is in some serious legal jeapordy.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 21:42:38 Female Computer Science Professor Debunks Damore's idiot memo: http://www...memo-women-tech-biology-sexism So much pseudo-science junk becoming rallying cries for far-right activists to try to draw white men to their side.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 21:54:25 I think the part in the lawsuit where managers allowed people to boo over work groups that had too many white men in it would do that better.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 22:32:58 Just unpacking this lawsuit is hard. I am going to need a few days and remember that this is the plaintiff and google will soon respond. But holy shit. Managers using Antifa symbols as their internal corporate messaging avatars? Diversity improvement sessions straight out of the mao playbook of a struggle session? Hidden blacklists and arbitray enforcement of speech with no set standards overlaying an imposed system of overt racism? This is a 9 figure lawsuit easy. Possibly even 10 figures depending on how large the class action becomes.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 22:51:48 ffs they are even accusing google of tameny. Punishing employees who raised concerns that the practices were unlawful. This is about way more then Damores stupid memo.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jan 08 22:54:17 Do you believe everything you read? http://www...-designed-to-embarrass-google/ Damore's "evidence" is a bunch of snapshots of private chats. This guy is going to have no corroborating witnesses. It's designed to embarass Google so that they pay out. This is fake news fake white victimhood bullshit.
hood Member	Mon Jan 08 23:18:16 "ffs they are even accusing google of tameny. Punishing employees who raised concerns that the practices were unlawful. This is about way more then Damores stupid memo." Yeah, cause it's totally impossible for Google to make the reasonable claim that they fired the guy for causing problems within the company...
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 23:22:40 That is what discovery is for Dukhat. This is the initial salvo to prove they have a case. After that the corroborating witnesses, emails and communications can be subpoenaed.
Aeros Member	Mon Jan 08 23:25:32 The lawyers dont need to prove the case right now. They need to prove they have a case. And they most certainly have. No way google gets a summary dismissal here. And once discovery begins everything relevant to the trial falls under the agency of the court which can force google to turn over evidence to the plaintiffs unless they can prove it is not relevant. Things like the alleged blacklist google documents.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 09 01:30:37 It must mean war.
Aeros Member	Tue Jan 09 01:31:03 Yep. Lawfare.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 09 09:23:13 And you are over-stating Damore's case. I am not familiar with California is a jurisdiction but these are very outlandish claims that seem to be only incidentally related to the snapshots Damore took. Google knew this might be coming and they still fired him. One of the biggest multinationals with the very best minds out there (not just engineers but in-house counsel). My bet is on google and given Damore's public persona; I bet they have a ton of shit on him that proves he created a bad work environment. We will see though. http://www...atives/?utm_term=.bac7ec0583b0 "Google spokesman, Ty Sheppard, said in response to the lawsuit: “We look forward to defending against Mr. Damore’s lawsuit in court.” ... "Dhillon is a prominent Republican in California who was reportedly considered for a Justice Department position in the Trump administration. She recently represented Republican students at the University of California at Berkeley who sued their school to allow conservative media personality Ann Coulter to speak there on a specific day. (The school had rescheduled Coulter’s event because of security concerns)." Ah ... Dhillon is a Trumper working to create the White Victimhood complex meme. Coulter is from the same cut as Trump where she says a bunch of hateful, reactionary things and then blames the world when "shockingly" the rest of the world recoils. The liberals even accepted her and rescheduled for security concerns and she still sued them. ***************** The American legal system has long given wide latitude to technology companies and the manner in which they choose to enforce their terms of service. But the suit makes particular reference to the California state constitution’s guarantee of free speech. Courts in that state have in the past highlighted the importance of free speech rights even when exercised on private property, making the state potentially more amenable to Johnson’s claims about censorship on a private online platform such as Twitter, said Jonathan Zittrain, faculty director of Harvard’s Berkman Klein Center for Internet and Society. “Of all the places to bring a long-shot case like this, California would be the place,” Zittrain said. In abstraction, free speech is great. In reality, the reactionary strain of conservatism that has overtaken America and Britain is incendiary and hateful and designed to troll. The courts have already decided you don't get an absolute right to free speech if it infringes on the safety and security of others.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jan 09 13:00:42 Damore: "Females have been shown to respond more poorly to consistent stress" Cuckhat: "Muh safety and security"
Pillz Member	Tue Jan 09 13:02:46 Yep. Free speech is actually akin to terrorism, didn't you know?
Aeros Member	Tue Jan 09 14:16:24 I didn't say they would win. I said they had a case and Google is not going to get a dismissal. Blame California's asinine workplace discrimination laws. The lawyers knew exactly what they were doing when they filed a State lawsuit.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 09 14:21:54 Google knew it was coming and decided it was better to fire Damore and risk a lawsuit than alienate a huge portion of it's working base and female workers who were demanding Damore be fired. Normally companies just pay off the person if they have a legitimate case. But because Damore is a social retard and is Trump-like in his blaming others; they will probably not settle and just take Damore to court. There's a good chance Damore ends up with nothing other than a ton of wasted time. I bet in Damore's mind he's at least a Snowden when he's really just a retard. At least he has an excuse for being a retard as an autistic person. The alt-right trolls who cheer him on are retards purely by elective choice.
Aeros Member	Tue Jan 09 14:22:24 This is NOT a Free Speech lawsuit. Its also not a Federal Civil Rights lawsuit. This is very specifically a lawsuit alleging that Google has violated Cal. Labor Code § 1101, Cal. Labor Code § 1102, Cal. Labor Code § 1102.5, and California code § 17200 Mainly, that Google unlawful used race as a factor in hiring and firing employees, they made gender a factor in hiring and firing employees, that they knew such actions were unlawful and punished employees who raised the issue of its unlawfulness, actively interfered in fired employees efforts to find employment elsewhere, and that such actions were provably willfull and malicious to the legal extent that Google knew or should have known they were committing a crime and with evil heart chose to do so anyway. If you read the laws as written, there is no exceptions in them. California's hippy legislature virtue signaled really hard in drafting that legislation and made their implementation broad and far reaching.
Aeros Member	Tue Jan 09 14:29:37 "Google knew it was coming and decided it was better to fire Damore and risk a lawsuit than alienate a huge portion of it's working base and female workers who were demanding Damore be fired." No way they knew this lawsuit was coming. The people who fired Damore are the odious middle management twats that are in the parade of idiots in the causal evidence. I doubt the idiots even bothered to consult with Googles legal department. They probably just assumed Damore would sperg out with a free speech lawsuit to the feds, not run over to state court and file 9 separate labor and business practices allegations. Because they honestly believed using race as a factor in hiring as long as its not the White race, or the favored minority Asians, then they are literally doing nothing wrong.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 09 14:51:41 You really are taking things too literally. Damore himself has no understanding of even his supposed area of expertise: systems biology (as evidenced by his own poorly cited pseudo-intellectual memo). His lawyer is a long-time conservative activist trying to shake things up so Trump nominates him to a circuit court seat. I bet you that over half of the initial charges are dismissed and they might litigate the rest. Damore certainly has no corroborating witnesses and just a bunch of snapshots of informal chats. We'll see what happens but it's mostly bullshit. Damore's lawyer doesn't look to want or need to win. Just wants to use discovery to dig up as much dirt on google as possible to reinforce his "Muh White Opression" meme.
Pillz Member	Tue Jan 09 16:09:55 Cuckhat will repeat himself until the facts go away. And I'm sure Google had disgruntled employees who'll jump on board.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 09 17:06:49 And where pray tell are these disgruntled employees? Reality is not what you wish it to be no matter how hard you pray to your Ann Coulter doll you fucking idiot.
hood Member	Tue Jan 09 17:24:01 "The people who fired Damore are the odious middle management twats that are in the parade of idiots in the causal evidence." You don't fire an employee without the go-ahead of higher ups. I would be willing to bet that despite whoever gave final word to Damore, people of import were aware of the firing.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 09 17:37:21 I'd like to say I do the exact same thing Damore does which is overgeneralize and antagonize people and make grand pronouncements. But I do this annonymously on a shitty, almost-deprecated internet forum with literally only maybe 15 posters/readers left. You can't act the way Damore does in the real world and expect to be successful. It's not a google thing; it's a workplace thing. The country is becoming more diverse and there are way more cross-sectional differences than before when White, Straight, Anglo-Saxon males were completely and totally dominant. The age of Mad Men is long over. ******************** What makes Damore especially retarded though is that google is completely dominated by white men and Damore himself was hired and promoted purely on meritocracy with respect to his technical field of expertise. He learned what all people learn when they climb the corporate ladder. At a point, it matters much less how good you are at your job; and how you work and manage others becomes the most important criteria. He made matters worse by not only ignoring this fact, but escalating matters. He is somewhat a victim of being autistic and entering a grey area. My personal view is that he has a very trollish nature given what I've heard anecdotally but from the facts we know with absolute truth from reporting, he may have been completely acting in good faith. That's why it google execs were split about firing him at first, but their hand was forced when enough employees demand he get fired. C'est la vie. Now he's a tool for the Mercers to try and change the subject from Trump and make Red Pillers angrier at the world. I doubt it ends well for him personally at the end of the day.
Pillz Member	Tue Jan 09 17:47:32 Cuckhat believes the only thing that doesn't make him a woman is the fact his sex organs are external.
PillzLovesTheCock Member	Tue Jan 09 18:31:05 "White men have no place in the 21st century." Oh boo fucking hoo. You know you love black cock.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jan 10 14:36:03 The memo was posted inside google for a month. It was never meant for you and I. Since it gained no attention or response, Damore posted it in a google group for skeptics asking them for input. It was around this time that it leaked to the public. Hood The lawsuit aside do you think Damore should have been fired? You said earlier you don’t care, but you have some opinion about it so it feel like dodging the core issue. Should discourse be conducted at the whims of the lynch mob? At my place of work we employ Chatham rules when we discuss things. In short we do not name and shame, free thought and all that jazz.
hood Member	Wed Jan 10 15:21:57 "Hood The lawsuit aside do you think Damore should have been fired? You said earlier you don’t care, but you have some opinion about it so it feel like dodging the core issue. Should discourse be conducted at the whims of the lynch mob?" I thought I had answered this clearly, but I will repeat: 1. I normally am very against people being fired over social media outlash. Especially if the "problem" is unrelated to work. 2. This is very much work related. 3. The outcry didn't come only from social media: many actual Google employees complained. 4. With this being work related, it's pretty obvious that Damore created problems for his employer. The reason I say "I don't care" about this is because of the following: 1. I recognize the backlash Damore received was somewhat overblown. His message was incredibly tactless, somewhat inaccurate, somewhat demeaning depending on context the reader takes. 2. I don't know Damore personally, so it's difficult to tell whether his "on average, women..." statements are actually sexist or just based on the research he did (can't fault a guy for bad research if they're willing to listen to why they're wrong). 3. While recognizing people were a bit hysterical, you cannot dismiss their feeling of uncomfortableness. In summing up the reasons for not caring, the "fuck off, mob" is roughly equivalent to the "justifiably affected the actual workplace." He wasn't fired over non-googlers calling for his head, but because co-workers were. Whether that call was fair or not I cannot determine. So, based on my best knowledge, Damore wasn't unjustly fired over social media outcry, but may not have actually deserved to be fired. So I remain neutral. This isn't the "OMG, dude walked in a Nazi parade, FIRE HIM!!!!" shit that had no relation to the job, or the "OMG Boston Marathon Halloween costume? FIRE HER!!!" Those firings I am undoubtedly against. This one is muddy enough that I don't take a side in whether he should have been fired or not - I will stick to simply arguing over the content of the memo.
Pillz Member	Wed Jan 10 15:40:34 Tl;dr He hurt people's feelings, we should care about how they interpret his memo regardless of whether they're context is correct, and there are no gender differences.
PillzLovesTheCock Member	Wed Jan 10 16:06:02 ^loves it dark
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jan 10 16:16:09 "it's pretty obvious that Damore created problems for his employer." He did what the employer asked for. I don't agree _he_ created problems. There is certain science that does not survive the motivated reasoning people deploy. You see this left and right, not understanding the science, conflating facts with values failing to grasp that fact are not alone normative, for how things ought to be. It should be noted that the "contentious" part i.e the parts about gender are a small part of the memo and not even included in the TL:DR section. "you cannot dismiss their feeling of uncomfortableness." I can, if their feelings are not justified or based on misunderstanding. I can still conduct a dialogue with them, but I don't have to entertain feelings void of the facts, it will hysteria. I have had women tell me (regarding personal safety, rape and violence) trying to shut me down, "you don't know how it feels being a women". It is true, I don't, but I do know what surveys and crime stats says that women feel unsafer, while men suffer the majority of violent crimes. Feelings of discomfort can be weaponized, with or without malicious intent. It is very difficult to fight back against this, you are at a disadvantage. This is my take from what you are saying, it is my own conclusion. So far you have cited one research, which he did not cite and that had nothing to do with average group differences, which is what seems to be what most people went crazy over. It is presented under the heading, "Possible non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech". I think that is about as tactful as it gets. As for the castrated men. You said sample size is small. Well yes, the condition is not common and conducting these studies are difficult. The main point of these studies (there are others) is that gendered behavior is innate. If you read the study you find this: "The parents of all 14 subjects assigned to female sex stated that they had reared their child as a female. Twelve of these subjects have sisters: parents described equivalent child-rearing approaches and attitudes toward the subjects and their sisters. However, parents described a moderate-to-pronounced unfolding of male-typical behaviors and attitudes over time in these subjects — but not in their sisters. Parents reported that the subjects typically resisted attempts to encourage play with female-typical toys or with female playmates or to behave as parents thought typical girls might behave. These 14 subjects expressed difficulties fitting in with girls. All but one played primarily or exclusively with male-typical toys. Only one played with dolls; the others did so almost never or never. Only one ever played house. Each of the three exceptions represents a different subject. Parents noted substantial difficulty attempting to dress the subjects — but not their sisters — in clearly feminine attire after about four years of age." What "gender identity" even is, well I don't know what to make of it really, I can only assume that the circumstance these kids find themselves in is very confusing. But that is not even important in light of the fact that _all_ these genetic males, showed male typical behavior and difficulty fitting in with girls. Prior to confusing them with the "truth" and giving them testosterone. Small sample size, sure, but not an irrelevant discovery. It support Damores statement. "Biological males that were castrated at birth and raised as females often still identify and act like males" Some identify as males and they all behaved typically for genetic males. This is one small sample sized study that points in the same direction that a lot of other research does, that gendered behavior is innate. Which was Damores point under the heading "Possible non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech".
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jan 10 16:26:07 N=143 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00429-017-1600-2 Difference in brain structure of 1 month old babies. On top of the earlier studies of 1 day old infants things vs people preference. Baby boys are bombarded with testosterone in utero and during the first months after birth. It drops off after 5-6 months to rocket up when we reach puberty. "If you read the study you find this:" Not implying you did not read it, but as a rhetorical device, reading the study it says this...
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