Utopia Talk / Politics / Here Is The Right One On The Dossier

Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 08:58:07 See the video, at the site, of Sara Carter who is an Investigative Reporter that has uncovered other scandals. Dossier Was Used to Obtain FISA Warrant to Spy on Trump Campaign By S.Noble - January 11, 2018 Was the dossier used to obtain a FISA warrant? Looks like it and this use exposes a level of corruption and politicization of the FBI we have not seen. The dossier was used at least in part or in large part to gain a FISA warrant to spy on members of the Trump campaign, according to sources of Sean Hannity’s and Sarah Carter’s. This appears to have confirmed as much as he is allowed to confirm, by Rep. Meadows and also by Rep. Jordan. Keep in mind that the only part of the dossier that was confirmed as fact was Carter Page traveled to Russia, something Page would have gladly told the FBI had they asked. Mark Meadows isn’t free to confirm but he said there is a growing body of members who believe the dossier was used as a significant part of obtaining the dossier. Why was Clinton opposition research used to spy on her opposition in the election? Jim Jordan called for all the evidence to be released. Rep. Meadows said some of the things that are coming out are “unbelievable” in terms of the abuse of FISA it reveals. If all this is true, the FBI was used as a political tool to undermine or destroy then-candidate, now-President of the United States. http://www...rant-to-spy-on-trump-campaign/
Delude Member	Thu Jan 11 09:09:59 Again how is the dossier phony?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 09:10:12 Seb Member Thu Jan 11 09:00:40 If the dossier is fake, why have at least two (more now?) pleaded guilty? Seb Member Thu Jan 11 09:03:06 I read the leaked testinomy from Fusion to the senate. It's pretty damning all round. The Dem senator questions seem to show very good reasons to inform the FBI, nothing suggests malfeasance, and the republicans seem entirely interested in muck raking character and motivation to try and discredit the reports authors rather than the substance of the report and end up with nothing. It's kind of worrying that the way republican politicians approach this now is entirely in terms of trying to cover the republican parties arse rather than establishing whether or not there has been dammage to the nation. Hot Rod Revved Up Thu Jan 11 09:04:49 They caught then for lying to the FBI about their other actions. It had nothing to do with Trump or his campaign.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 09:19:12 Seb, they have now confirmed that the FBI did, in fact, use the discredited dossier to obtain FISA warrants to spy on Trump campaign officials during the campaign. It has been determined that Hillary's campaign paid for the dossier and that it is fundamentally flawed.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 09:25:36 Delude, The Clinton Campaign hired a company called Fusion to get some dirt on the Trump people and Fusion hired an ex British Intelligence person to do the investigation. He fabricated the information that was contained in the finished dossier. Something the left street media never told you, but FOX watchers have known for months that it was fabricated.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 09:28:09 It is just now that proof of the FBI using it to obtain warrants has been confirmed.
hood Member	Thu Jan 11 10:14:50 Some tangential Trump lols: http://ars...hanges-his-tune-on-nsa-spying/ "The House of Representatives is expected to vote on the issue today, and last night the White House put out a statement condemning USA Rights. "This Amendment will re-establish the walls between intelligence and law enforcement that the country knocked down following the attacks of 9/11 in order to increase information sharing and improve our national security," the White House argued. Then Fox and Friends happened. "I don't understand why Donald Trump is in favor of this," said Judge Andrew Napolitano in a Thursday morning segment of the show. "His woes began with unlawful foreign surveillance and unconstitutional domestic surveillance of him before he was the president of the United States. And now he wants to institutionalize this. Mr. President, this is not the way to go." We don't know if Donald Trump was watching at that moment. What we do know is that less than an hour later, Donald Trump posted a tweet agreeing with Napolitano and seeming to contradict his own press operation from the night before. "Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump “House votes on controversial FISA ACT today.” This is the act that may have been used, with the help of the discredited and phony Dossier, to so badly surveil and abuse the Trump Campaign by the previous administration and others?" Experts we talked to cast doubt on Trump's claim that his campaign was surveilled under FISA authorities. "There is no evidence FISA was used for political purposes," said Jake Laperruque, a surveillance law expert at the Program on Government Oversight. But Laperruque said it is possible that some Trump campaign staffers like foreign policy advisor George Papadopoulos had their communications intercepted when they communicated with foreigners who were already under surveillance by the NSA. Trump's national security advisors may have had a talk with him after that tweet, because he partially walked it back a couple of hours later. "Today’s vote is about foreign surveillance of foreign bad guys on foreign land," he wrote. "We need it!"" ------------------ Guy is completely nutty.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 10:17:46 "according to sources of Sean Hannity" so... total garbage "the discredited dossier" total lie "It has been determined that Hillary's campaign paid for the dossier" Hillary paid a neutral firm who paid a neutral investigator where did this assumption that opposition research must be fake come from? it's absolutely ridiculous... every campaign is paying investigators for made-up info? pure lying bullshit
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 10:22:13 if the FBI relied on campaign ads created by Hillary's campaign that were loosely based on the dossier... then maybe you'd have a point
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 10:27:18 here's some total bullshit from lying idiot Trump, straight from watching Fox News (he even notes the entertainment show Fox&Friends): "Disproven and paid for by Democrats “Dossier used to spy on Trump Campaign. Did FBI use Intel tool to influence the Election?” @foxandfriends Did Dems or Clinton also pay Russians? Where are hidden and smashed DNC servers? Where are Crooked Hillary Emails? What a mess!" NOT 'disproven' at all, many parts confirmed even... FBI never mentioned it during election, so NO, did not influence... then more typical innuendo this guy is such a disgrace
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 10:30:25 and more bullshit: " “House votes on controversial FISA ACT today.” This is the act that may have been used, with the help of the discredited and phony Dossier, to so badly surveil and abuse the Trump Campaign by the previous administration and others? " how can ANYONE still find this lying piece of garbage to be fit?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 10:37:15 so HR please direct us to ANY evidence that the dossier is false (Trump seems unwilling to provide any evidence for any wild claims ever, probably should concern you) and direct us to ANY evidence the Obama admin improperly surveilled Trump campaign (Trump seems unwilling to provide any evidence for any wild claims ever, probably should concern you) and while at it may as well find the evidence that 'Hillary lied many times to the FBI' that Trump knows somehow, and the 3-5 Million fraud voters (Trump seems unwilling to provide any evidence for any wild claims ever, probably should concern you)
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 11 11:56:42 Please remember that Hack Rod doesn't do evidence or facts.
Paramount Member	Thu Jan 11 12:28:20 "It is just now that proof of the FBI using it to obtain warrants has been confirmed. " So what. If they did it for a good cause, to protect America, it's all good. Have you joined al-Qaida yet, Hot Rod?
Delude Member	Thu Jan 11 12:31:23 Another failed outrage just like the Feinstein thread.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 11 12:44:07 Much of the dossier is false. It was just a fly on the wall memo. Some of it was true, some of it unsubstantiated, some outright Kremlin prop. First-level intelligence compilations are not the basis for action. They are the basis for further compiling and review.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 12:47:44 in other words, the same as any info the FBI might look at... they also has independent info that matched up... see the Popadopolous/Australian story NOT "oh, Hillary is at the root of the funding, so must be pure fiction" as pushed by Trump's propaganda wing on Fox & others... that's TOTAL nonsense
Limousine Liberal Member	Thu Jan 11 12:51:13 Intel agencies are not to be trusted. Just putin and Trump.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 17:12:41 It has been ***DETERMINED*** that the FBI took this phony dossier to a judge and used it to obtain the Warrants that were used against the personnel in Trump's campaign. Totally illegal and underhanded. If you think that is OK then you are no better than NAZI'S. It is the most egregious scandal that I have ever seen or heard of to come out of Washington D.C. Everyone involved very long prison terms. I wonder if your sleazy left wing "news" media will tell you about it. I doubt it.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 17:16:55 what is your evidence that the dossier is fake? (you'll say 'Hillary paid for it!') there is no logic at all to that line of thinking thus you are defeated and the dossier wasn't the sole evidence
Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Thu Jan 11 17:18:12 Steele a man with no experience in the American political system reported it to the FBI because he thought it was a "crime in progress" the FBI believed him because he was a professional and it corroborated other evidence. Discreetly reporting a crime isn't illegal or underhanded.
hood Member	Thu Jan 11 17:25:11 "It has been ***DETERMINED*** that the FBI took this phony dossier to a judge and used it to obtain the Warrants that were used against the personnel in Trump's campaign. Totally illegal and underhanded." Please cite the law broken.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 17:36:38 ^and what's underhanded about it ibty is correct
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Jan 11 18:04:20 http://the...val=20887#.Wle9YFiDzxU.twitter
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 18:30:20 tw - what is your evidence that the dossier is fake? Read the article and watch the Sara Carter vidio. That is my evidence. hood, do you honestly believe no law was broken when the FBI used toxic information to obtain a warrant. swordtail, why should he submit when he knows that no law was broken by him or his staff? Why?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Jan 11 18:34:07 watch the video or read the transcript.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 18:36:30 Both, they are at the same link and the video is a minute at most I think.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 18:37:30 Not transcript, the article.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 19:03:00 i see nothing in the article saying dossier fake the video is Sean Hannity so is worthless, not watching
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 19:08:46 tw, now I understand ho they feel when the tell me to go someplace and die.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 19:11:39 "The dossier was used at least in part or in large part to gain a FISA warrant to spy on members of the Trump campaign, according to sources of Sean Hannity’s and Sarah Carter’s. This appears to have confirmed as much as he is allowed to confirm, by Rep. Meadows and also by Rep. Jordan."
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 20:05:12 What.makes.the.dosser.fake? your own article says a part confirmed, so it's NOT fake And what is wrong with the FBI considering intelligence gathered by an investigator... an ex-spy at that? There is NOTHING suggesting the guy made any of it up
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 20:21:31 "The dossier was used at least in part or in large part to gain a FISA warrant... That is now confirmed as of last night. People have been investigating the dossier ever since it became public. That is how they know it is fake. It is confirmed that the Hillary compaign paid for it, that a British ex-spy made it up and that he was hired by Fusion, the company that Hillary paid to get it don. Do you know about the FBI agent that was working for Mueller that screwed up and was demoted to Human Resources, his wife worked for Fusion and they are both heavy Hillary contributors. That's about I know about all I know of the top on my head, nut it is all true.
American Democrat Member	Thu Jan 11 21:15:15 ""The dossier was used at least in part or in large part to gain a FISA warrant... That is now confirmed as of last night. " This wasn't confirmed as of last night. This actually has been discussed and concluded from last year, April or somewhere in the timeframe. " People have been investigating the dossier ever since it became public. That is how they know it is fake. It is confirmed that the Hillary compaign paid for it, that a British ex-spy made it up and that he was hired by Fusion, the company that Hillary paid to get it don. " What you said is completely wrong in the utilization and the acquisition of the dossier with the inferences you are applying. It is normal for campaigns to research their opponent there isn't a law specifically against that. With the information discovered and shared with the FBI was something they had information on that matched that what they already had. This does not make the dossier fake. You have not provided any evidence that all of the information was fake. You haven't provided any evidence that the 'ex-spy' made it up. In fact it has been show in his testimony along with FBI's intel that it was verified. Which goes against your assertion of "fake." "Do you know about the FBI agent that was working for Mueller that screwed up and was demoted to Human Resources, his wife worked for Fusion and they are both heavy Hillary contributors." This ridiculous point to bring up about contributions is nothing but a exploitation to paint the picture of outright bias. If that is the card to play then that any agent or person in the government can be scrutinized that they have a bias for donating. In fact each year, a government employee is prompted to donate money to a campaign, of course this is voluntary. So to check records of such donations can be used against anyone and is pointless. Muelleur is republican and has donated to the party. With this logic are we to think that he has such a bias he is incapable of maintaining impartiality? "That's about I know about all I know of the top on my head, nut it is all true. " What you know is mostly false other than stating the a dossier existed...your portrayal and consistence declaration that the dossier is patently false and you have not provided any evidence to prove that.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 11 21:27:34 Retard Rod will keep saying it's all fake until everyone eventually gives up correcting him. Then he'll declare victory and move on to his next bullshit delusion.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 21:31:37 There is two minutes of my life I will never get back. One thing I forgot to mention is the FBI Agent that was demoted also had a mistress and they had sent thousands of emails to each other dissing Trump in the worst way. BTW, I said the FBI using the dossier to obtain warrants to spy on the Trump people was just confirmed last night. You obviously know just enough about the situation to earn yourself the name of traitor.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 11 21:35:13 Not all fake pedo woo, it is true that Carter Page traveled to Russia. But, that is all. If you were smart you would know that.
American Democrat Member	Thu Jan 11 21:47:12 "One thing I forgot to mention is the FBI Agent that was demoted also had a mistress and they had sent thousands of emails to each other dissing Trump in the worst way. " Yes, in their private conversations, which is opinions they can have. There is nothing against the law for them to express their opinions. You conveniently left out the detail that it wasn't Trump they were critical as well as Clinton, Sanders, and other politicians during their thousands of text exchanges. But go ahead with your narration of skewed portrayals. "BTW, I said the FBI using the dossier to obtain warrants to spy on the Trump people was just confirmed last night. You obviously know just enough about the situation to earn yourself the name of traitor. " Wrong. This was already concluded last year. And there is nothing wrong in regards to the warrant that was obtain based upon information they received that bolstered to what they already had acquired. It is far more treacherous of not addressing the cybersecurity threats that exist and Trump continues to ignore.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 21:49:11 the FBI using completely legitimate intelligence is completely fine... and your own article says it was only part of the evidence your insinuation that it is illegal and underhanded is what is disgusting you have nothing still that suggests dossier faked in any way, other than the absurd notion that people hire companies for oppo research expecting fake information
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 11 21:52:08 if you mention Hillary you've lost... she hired the -same- neutral firm that a conservative website hired for oppo research on Trump.... she is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the dossier credibility
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Jan 11 21:53:15 One of the more interesting developments in the dossier case came as a result of depositions and testimony in the defamation case that Aleksej Gubarev filed against Christoper Steele in the United Kingdom last year. When pressed to defend the authenticity and accuracy of the dossier and the allegations against President Trump, Christopher Steele became a British version of Michael Jackson and moon-walked backwards. Andy McCarthy describes the situation beautifully: Describing his reports in the Mother Jones interview, Steele asserted, “This was something of huge significance, way above party politics.” Things changed, though, when Steele was sued for libel after the dossier was published in early 2017. Suddenly, when he was in a forum where it was clear to him that making exaggerated or false claims could cost him dearly, he decided his allegations were not of such “huge significance” after all . . . .According to Steele’s courtroom version, the dossier is merely a compilation of bits of “raw intelligence” that were “unverified” and that he passed along because they “warranted further investigation” — i.e., not because he could vouch for their truthfulness. (kudos to Rowan Scarborough who initially broke the story). http://tur...r-by-publius-tacitus.html#more
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Jan 11 21:53:47 http://www...zarre-story-of-the-DNC-hackers
Cold Rod Member	Thu Jan 11 21:54:14 Uh oh you used facts. Hot Rod will totally ignore and not address those points and interject unrelated bullshit.
delude Member	Thu Jan 11 22:15:47 The bullshit continues as rod ignores facts.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 01:50:49 I give you shitheads facts and all you are capable of is saying I'm the one that won't accept facts. It must really hurt to be as stupid as you people. What the hell, I will have the last laugh when they hall Hillary off to prison.
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 03:28:36 Yes, you gave facts that there is a dossier that was used by the FBI that corroborated with intel they had already gathered. No where have you cited that the dossier was completely 'fabricated' or 'made up' by the agent(s) other than an opinion that was expressed by Hannity and crew, because of course they are a pinnacle of 'honest integral journalism.' It has been asked of you to provide the information and it has been explained or shown to you that it has not been proven that it was fake. Only the continuous echo of you and Pres. Traitor. It must truly hurt to be as stupid as you right now. Especially stemming from your disastrous Feinstein thread.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 12 04:47:00 Hot rod: In what way has the dossier been discredited? Steele went to the FBI early on, the fact that it's unverified isn't an issue (it's the FBIs job to verify it). All reports to police forces are unverified. Also, Steeles investigation was separate client and separate management to the Clinton comission. Doesn't really stack up that this is partisan. If This is for her benefit, why release publicly after the election? Youd leak this early to force fbi to investigate
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 05:32:14 I have laid everything out for you folks, yet you question what I have said. Believe it or not, FOX confirms what they report though on the rare occasion of breaking news they will tell us that certain things have not been confirmed such as how many people have been killed, etc. So what I have posted has been confirmed unlike some of the things some of you post. And they certainly do not have an Anchor squirming around in their chair pronouncing, OMG his orange hair is so creepy he simply must be impeached.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 12 05:36:36 Swordtails link is very, very strange line of argument. Is the idea that, on uncovering primae facie evidence of major corruption, an individual or organisation should not report it to law enforcement agencies until it has been proven absolutely true? So, to put it another way, if I see a man wearing a balaclava breaking into my neighbours house, I shouldn't call it to the police as a burglary in progress because it might actually just be my neighbour who has forgotten his keys and wearing a balaclava because it's really cold out. Instead, I should approach the fellow, and have a conversation with him as to why he's opening the door. And if it turns out it's not my neighbour, but he claims he's a lock smith my neighbour has hired to get his door open, again, my accusation of burglary is unfounded and I shouldn't report the issue. Now I should call my neigbour to confirm the "locksmiths" story. But I can't get through to him... oh well, better mind my own business. The things in the dossier are reported in terms of "this is what we have been told or found out", not "I am accusing Donald Trump of...". It's only libellous if they are making the accusation rather than reporting a thing.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 12 05:37:13 BAsically, it's perfectly possible for an issue to be both of the uttmost serious, non-libelous, and unverrified.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 12 05:37:39 All accusations are unverified before they are verrified ones.
American Democrat Member	Fri Jan 12 06:04:47 "I have laid everything out for you folks, yet you question what I have said." What you have laid out were opinions that this is a "phony" dossier. What you did not lay out were any evidence demonstrating how it was "phony" or "fake." As it has been established that some of the information provided was accurate and corroborated and other information neither proven or unproven. "Believe it or not, FOX confirms what they report though on the rare occasion of breaking news they will tell us that certain things have not been confirmed such as how many people have been killed, etc. " As has various other of media and news organizations. "So what I have posted has been confirmed unlike some of the things some of you post. " Curious; for example?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 11:33:20 "And they certainly do not have an Anchor squirming around in their chair pronouncing, OMG his orange hair is so creepy he simply must be impeached." -30-
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 12 11:50:55 if i may blow your mind: no CNN anchor has ever said Trump should be impeached... even for the many legitimate reasons that exist also the dossier is not fake no matter how many times the entertainment shows on Fox say so... and yes, Trump relies on the -entertainment- shows for his news
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 12:16:45 Notice how rod got put in his place again and coward his way out because he is a pussy.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 12:18:11 I was thinking of the 'person' on MSNBC. Not sure if she ever recommended impeachment, but she is certifiable.
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 12:21:13 So you're making shit up as usual. Just like calling the dossier "fake." What a fuckhead you are.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 12:30:30 Bullshit, you people do shit like that all of the time. Have you ever read tumbleweed's posts? Whenever I go to the trouble of making a truthful post, you guys turn it inside out and come up with bullshit.
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 12:32:48 Like what? Care to provide examples, bet you can't. You're "truthful posts", like calling the dossier "fake" with any evidence? Yeah, good call. Your track record isn't the greatest on this forum. Currently and historically.
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 12:33:31 Your* without*
The UP Archivist Member	Fri Jan 12 12:40:14 -archived-
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 12:42:06 They have been calling that dossier fake for months. Not my fault if you refuse to watch the news. Real news that is.
American Democrat Member	Fri Jan 12 12:48:15 "They have been calling that dossier fake for months. " Who is "they" and what evidence. Again, this is something you have failed to do which has been requested by us. Where is it? "Not my fault if you refuse to watch the news. Real news that is. " Then where is their evidence...you are inferring they have it, correct?
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 12:49:07 "They have been calling that dossier fake for months. Not my fault if you refuse to watch the news. Real news that is. " Calling it "fake" without evidence isn't the same is it being "fake." Show me you fuckhead, where is the evidence?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 12 12:59:04 there is no evidence it's fake... but HR once again perfectly illustrates the problem total liars say it's fake over and over and he believes it even though they provide nothing to suggest it's fake (except the completely absurd notion that evil Hillary paid for the demonstrably neutral company that hired the guy so it must be fake) of course if you say that over and over too, pretending it proves something, the HRs believe it
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 13:08:55 "The U.S. intelligence community purportedly has examined the allegations but have not confirmed any of them. We can wait till hell freezes over. The material is not verifiable."
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 12 13:16:26 do you know what 'fake' means?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 12 13:22:09 and your above quote comes from an opinion piece written a year ago
delude Member	Fri Jan 12 13:28:10 Shocking, rod lies again.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 12 13:29:42 HotRod: Not verifiable isn't the same as fake Hot Rod. But I'm puzzled by this claim given we know the reason that the FISA warrant was granted was because the Steele's information corroborated other sources. This seems unlikely if the information was unverifiable. I'm also keen to understand exactly what is meant by unverifiable. Inteligence is often uncertain and rated on a probabalistic scale. If unverrifiable simply means "fails to meat some arbitrarily high degree of proof" that's not that interesting. If I smacked you over the head when nobody was looking and no recording information captured it, I could argue that's unverrifiable too. Sure you know it. But I deny it. And there's no records. Sure, everyone heard a whack, but that could be anything. Sure, you have a red hand print on your face and my skin cells - but maybe you hit yourself and the skin cells are contamination from being in the same room. Maybe maybe maybe.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Jan 12 14:35:24 My guess is that verifiable means corroborated by a believable second source. Like if my brother had a long rap sheet he would not qualify as a believable witness. Bu, if he had retired from the military as a Brigadier General with an untarnished reputation, he might be suitable.
American Democrat Member	Fri Jan 12 16:40:00 "Like if my brother had a long rap sheet he would not qualify as a believable witness. Bu, if he had retired from the military as a Brigadier General with an untarnished reputation, he might be suitable." He has been shown to be reliable... What information can you provide that shows the opposite?
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