Utopia Talk - Politics

Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Wed Apr 24 22:53:21 2024

Utopia Talk / Politics / <3 UK

Allahuakbar
Member Wed Jan 17 23:09:30
Just send him back to Pakistan, we'll take care of this fake humanist :-)

http://www...fter-failing-to-identify-plato

Pakistani humanist denied UK asylum after failing to identify Plato

Man who renounced Islam says he has received death threats from family members in Pakistan

A Pakistani man who renounced his Muslim faith and became a humanist has had his application for asylum in the UK rejected after failing to correctly answer questions about ancient Greek philosophers.

The Home Office said Hamza bin Walayat’s failure to identify Plato and Aristotle as humanist philosophers indicated his knowledge of humanism was “rudimentary at best”.

The Home Office also said Walayat did not face persecution for his beliefs. In a letter rejecting his asylum claim, seen by the Guardian, it said his assertion that he would be at risk in Pakistan, and could be killed by his family because of his beliefs and his renunciation of Islam, was unfounded.

Walayat, who has lived in the UK since 2011, said he had received death threats from members of his family and community in Pakistan after integrating into secular British life, forming a relationship with a non-Muslim partner and refusing to conform to the expectations of conservative Islam.

Apostates are subject to discrimination, persecution and violence in Pakistan. In March last year, a student who had stated he was a humanist on his Facebook page was murdered at his university.

Blasphemy is punishable by death under Pakistani law. In August, 24 British politicians wrote to the Pakistani government urging it to repeal its draconian blasphemy law, which has been used against religious minorities and humanists.

Walayat claimed asylum in July last year after being served with removal papers for overstaying his student visa.

After an interview with immigration officials, the Home Office said he had “been unable to provide a consistent or credible account with regards the main aspect of your claim, namely that you are a humanist”.

When tested on his knowledge of humanism, Walayat gave a “basic definition” but could not identify “any famous Greek philosophers who were humanistic”.

The letter said: “When you were informed by the interviewing officer that he was referring to Plato and Aristotle, you replied: ‘Yeah, the thing is because of my medication that is strong I just forget stuff sometimes’.”

The Home Office concluded: “Your knowledge of humanism is rudimentary at best and not of a level that would be expected of a genuine follower of humanism.”

Walayat joined the Humanists UK organisation in August, but said he had believed in the basic principles of humanism from childhood.

According to Humanists UK, “humanism is not a ‘canonical’ belief system, where adherents must learn and follow a strict set of behaviour codes. As a descriptive term, humanists can be someone who has simply rejected religious belief but holds some positive conception of human values.”

In a letter in support of Walayat’s asylum application, Bob Churchill, of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, said: “For many, the broad descriptive ‘humanist’ is just a softer way of saying atheist, especially if you come from a place where identifying as atheist may be regarded as a deeply offensive statement.”

Andrew Copson, of Humanists UK, said the move “set a dangerous precedent for non-religious people fleeing persecution. The Home Office is simply incorrect to claim that non-religious people seeking asylum don’t get the same protection in law as religious people do.”

The questions put to Walayat “reveal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of humanism”, he added.

Walayat told the Guardian he believed his life would be in danger in Pakistan. The Home Office decision had come as a shock, he added. “I’ve told the truth and instead of believing me they are trying to find excuses to kick me out of the country,” he said.

Many Christians he had encountered in the UK did not have a detailed grasp of the history of their faith, he said, “but it doesn’t mean they’re not Christian”.

A Home Office spokesperson said: “The UK has a proud history of granting asylum to those who need our protection and each claim is carefully considered on its individual merits.”

Hot Rod
Revved Up Thu Jan 18 01:24:32

Good idea, allowing immigration based on what they have to offer the country.

Paramount
Member Thu Jan 18 05:50:41
Like cheap labor for the capitalist?

jergul
large member Thu Jan 18 08:05:10
A working knowledge of Greek philosophers is something you feel countries need more of HR?

Forwyn
Member Thu Jan 18 13:23:56
More like basic claims should be examined. For instance: "I claim to be a humanist but cannot identify the preeminent humanist thinkers in history, or give anything more than a very basic and vague definition of the school of thought itself."

Seb
Member Thu Jan 18 13:42:56
Forwyn:

"Andrew Copson, of Humanists UK, said the move “set a dangerous precedent for non-religious people fleeing persecution. The Home Office is simply incorrect to claim that non-religious people seeking asylum don’t get the same protection in law as religious people do.”

The questions put to Walayat “reveal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of humanism”, he added.

Fundies wanting to kill him for Apostasy won't give him a test on the deep background of humanism.

This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses.

And it misses the point. Refugee status is granted on the basis of threat of persecution. The evidence he'd need to present is whether he's publicly disavowed Islam in favour of a secular belief system thereby inviting persecution; not whether or not he's got a sound theoretical grasp of that system.

Seb
Member Thu Jan 18 13:44:38
Quoted the wrong bit.

"In a letter in support of Walayat’s asylum application, Bob Churchill, of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, said: “For many, the broad descriptive ‘humanist’ is just a softer way of saying atheist, especially if you come from a place where identifying as atheist may be regarded as a deeply offensive statement.”

Forwyn
Member Thu Jan 18 14:10:02
Right. Instead of just saying he's an atheist citizen of the world, he blindly used an existing term for a philosophic movement.

Easy to blame it on ignorance, but he presented as A and couldn't defend A, so it calls his claims of B into question.

"This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses."

No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism.

Forwyn
Member Thu Jan 18 14:15:49
Right. Instead of just saying he's an atheist citizen of the world, he blindly used an existing term for a philosophic movement.

Easy to blame it on ignorance, but he presented as A and couldn't defend A, so it calls his claims of B into question.

"This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses."

No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism.

Pillz
Member Thu Jan 18 14:17:15
Seb desperately wanted this asylum seeker housed in his wife.

jergul
large member Thu Jan 18 17:23:11
Not Luther. Augustine. Its like asking a Christian to correctly identify a portrait of Augustine.

jergul
large member Thu Jan 18 17:27:27
Not a portrait. But correctly naming augustine as one of the more important church fathers.

Seb
Member Thu Jan 18 17:37:44
Forwyn:

You may not have read the article. Humanist is typically used as an alternative to Athiest in Pakistan, as the latter is far more explicitly apostasy and involves a fuck load more persecution

Also, you don't need to know plato to be a humanist.

http://iheu.org/humanism/the-amsterdam-declaration/

No mention here explicitly of Plato. Just as very few protestants will be able to explain who Luther was, when he lived, what his theses were and why they were important - even if their practice and beliefs were shaped by him. See more below.

RSD doesn't depend on whether not someone has used the correct taxonomy for describing their beliefs.

"No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism."

Which very few protestants would do. Knowing about Luther and the history of protestantists schism from catholicism is not a key part of practicing faith. I say that as a well educated, ex Church of England, brought up in a series of schools that had various affiliations to CoE. I didn't find out about much about Luther until long after I decided it was all bunkum. It just didn't need to come up. And that's kind of obvious if you think about it.

A key part about protestantism is your relationship with God, not Luthers critiques of catholicism. If you grew up in the reformed church, practicing it that way, then how is Luther relevant other than as being of historical interest in understanding how protestantism is shaped as a reaction to catholicism as practiced back in his day? And given the whole point of protestantism is your personal relationship with god and unintermediated forgiveness and redemption through Christ, cited from the gospels themselves, of course there is no need or point in emphasising some long dead theologians musings on the flaws of the cahtolic church. Instead you point to the Gospels and teachings of Jesus.

Similarly, you don't need to know much about Plato to decide to live your life by the principles of humanism - see for example the Amsterdam declaration above. Understanding the philosophical underpinnings on why these tennets are virtuous and lead to a virtuous life is helpul, but non-essential. You can believe them without knowing anything about plato.

And the risk of persecutuion comes from believing and espousing them - and is not therefore proven false by the fellow not knowing who Plato is.

You'd prove it false by looking at whether there is a statistical risk in Pakistan from espousing such, whether there are examples of persecution, whether he could reasonably avail himself of protection by the state etc.

Seb
Member Thu Jan 18 17:45:12
jergul:

Any of them. I picked Luther as I was going to do a catholic/protestant thing - but decided I didn't need to bother. Aquinas, Augestine - any of them work.

You might possibly catch a christian out this way if they couldn't name the gospels and reasonably say they probably weren't a Christian.

But it's dodgy as fuck though, given the risk comes from whether persecutors see the individual as an appostate, not whether they are a good christian. It would be like sending a refugee from 1930's Germany back because he's uncircumsised, doesn't practice Judaism and his mother wasn't Jewish and having a single estranged Jewish Grandfather doesn't count. Exccept it does for those persecuting the claimant.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if the indvidual understands the philosophical history and underpinnings of humanism. Only that if he can show he publically professes it, is facing persecution for it as a consequnce, and has no recourse to protection from his state, then he's a refugee and has the right of asylum.

Forwyn
Member Thu Jan 18 21:16:44
"Its like asking a Christian to correctly identify a portrait of Augustine."

Are Euros just universally bad at analogies or something?

Fill in the blank:
Name an important figure in the development of Christian theology:___________________

No portrait needed. Just name one. He failed, and blamed it on his med.

"Humanist is typically used as an alternative to Athiest in Pakistan"

"Easy to blame it on ignorance,"

Yes, Pakis are ignorant, that's fine.

"Also, you don't need to know plato to be a humanist."

"I'm a Mormon. John Smith who?"

"No mention here explicitly of Plato."

No mention here explicitly of anyone. Why would a summary of views need to list every person who helped develop the school of thought?

"Which very few protestants would do."

Again, you don't need to outline specific theses of theologians, just identify a single person who contributed to the institution.

If that means denying an American teenager's refugee application based on their self-identification as Christian but failure to identify even basic Christian principles, so be it.

And shouldn't this be something you embrace with open arms? Muslims aren't Muslims if they drink and smoke, after all.

"Similarly, you don't need to know much about Plato to decide to live your life by the principles of humanism."

You can be an Atheist and a good person without ascribing to specific philosophies. And that's probably good enough for refugee status, too.

Seb
Member Fri Jan 19 04:31:32
Forwyn:

"Why would a summary of views need to list every person who helped develop the school of thought?"

Ergo, why would someone who professes to live by said views need to have detailed knowledge of everyone who helped develop the school of thought?

That's rather my point.

Seb
Member Fri Jan 19 04:35:39
Forwyn:

"Again, you don't need to outline specific theses of theologians, just identify a single person who contributed to the institution."

We don't believe in the Church as an institution. We believe in God and redemption through Jesus. You don't need to know the sligtest thing about popes, theologians etc. That's the whole fucking point of protestantism. A direct relationship with God. At *best* you might get away by asking if they can list the gospels.

"If that means denying an American teenager's refugee"

No you idijit. Refugee status is based on whether you face a credible threat. You don't need to be a *good* christian to be an apostate.

"You can be an Atheist and a good person without ascribing to specific philosophies."

Semantics. You can't deny refugee status under international customary law because the applicant mis-desccribed themselves.

Seb
Member Fri Jan 19 04:36:04
As in, used the wrong label to describe the same features.

Forwyn
Member Fri Jan 19 10:10:31
"detailed knowledge of everyone"

No one asked for that, they asked for him to name a single Greek humanist.

"We don't believe in the Church as an institution."

Lawl. Are we pretending that Christian churches haven't very intentionally stood a geopolitical powers in their own right? And this is coming from an Anglican?

"You don't need to be a *good* christian to be an apostate."

But you could certainly garner an honor killing by being a bad Muslim. Is it just apostates we should take in, or is it also Muslims who drink and smoke?

"You can't deny refugee status under international customary law because the applicant mis-desccribed themselves."

You can deny refugee status if you're unable to confirm they aren't what they say they are. i.e. a refugee.

obaminated
Member Fri Jan 19 10:34:55
If someone is fleeing their country because of religious/political persecution they should be allowed into the Western country they flee too assuming they are willing to pledge allegiance to the new adoptive country.

Paramount
Member Fri Jan 19 12:04:45
I think many refugees are willing to and is trying to adapt to our culture of grabbing women by their pussies.

Seb
Member Fri Jan 19 12:49:36
Forwyn:

As you yourself noted, you have no need to know a single Greek humanist in order to know the principles and suscribe to them.

It's subscribing to the principles that creates the condition of refuge status, not knowing the history of the development of the principles.

So the question is irrelevant for RSD.

Re the church, yup, the church is an earthly institution as is the crown and state. They are not necessary as an intermediary to redemption and Jesus. Rather they are there to spread the message.

"or is it also Muslims who drink and smoke?"

The test is "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country…"

Simply drinking and smoking probably wouldn't be enough.

"You can deny refugee status if you're unable to confirm they aren't what they say they are. i.e. a refugee."

Tautology. In this case, not knowing who Plato is doesn't disprove that he's at risk of persecution, in the same way as a Christian Afghani might not know who Thomas Aquinas is. Or indeed he might not consider himself Christian, but by virtue of his tribe which mostly is Christian, is therefore considered Christian by his persecutors. Cf. NAZI laws defining Jews.

Obaminated:
Most want nothing more than a path to citizenship which means pledging allegiance.

show deleted posts

Allahuakbar Member	Wed Jan 17 23:09:30 Just send him back to Pakistan, we'll take care of this fake humanist :-) http://www...fter-failing-to-identify-plato Pakistani humanist denied UK asylum after failing to identify Plato Man who renounced Islam says he has received death threats from family members in Pakistan A Pakistani man who renounced his Muslim faith and became a humanist has had his application for asylum in the UK rejected after failing to correctly answer questions about ancient Greek philosophers. The Home Office said Hamza bin Walayat’s failure to identify Plato and Aristotle as humanist philosophers indicated his knowledge of humanism was “rudimentary at best”. The Home Office also said Walayat did not face persecution for his beliefs. In a letter rejecting his asylum claim, seen by the Guardian, it said his assertion that he would be at risk in Pakistan, and could be killed by his family because of his beliefs and his renunciation of Islam, was unfounded. Walayat, who has lived in the UK since 2011, said he had received death threats from members of his family and community in Pakistan after integrating into secular British life, forming a relationship with a non-Muslim partner and refusing to conform to the expectations of conservative Islam. Apostates are subject to discrimination, persecution and violence in Pakistan. In March last year, a student who had stated he was a humanist on his Facebook page was murdered at his university. Blasphemy is punishable by death under Pakistani law. In August, 24 British politicians wrote to the Pakistani government urging it to repeal its draconian blasphemy law, which has been used against religious minorities and humanists. Walayat claimed asylum in July last year after being served with removal papers for overstaying his student visa. After an interview with immigration officials, the Home Office said he had “been unable to provide a consistent or credible account with regards the main aspect of your claim, namely that you are a humanist”. When tested on his knowledge of humanism, Walayat gave a “basic definition” but could not identify “any famous Greek philosophers who were humanistic”. The letter said: “When you were informed by the interviewing officer that he was referring to Plato and Aristotle, you replied: ‘Yeah, the thing is because of my medication that is strong I just forget stuff sometimes’.” The Home Office concluded: “Your knowledge of humanism is rudimentary at best and not of a level that would be expected of a genuine follower of humanism.” Walayat joined the Humanists UK organisation in August, but said he had believed in the basic principles of humanism from childhood. According to Humanists UK, “humanism is not a ‘canonical’ belief system, where adherents must learn and follow a strict set of behaviour codes. As a descriptive term, humanists can be someone who has simply rejected religious belief but holds some positive conception of human values.” In a letter in support of Walayat’s asylum application, Bob Churchill, of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, said: “For many, the broad descriptive ‘humanist’ is just a softer way of saying atheist, especially if you come from a place where identifying as atheist may be regarded as a deeply offensive statement.” Andrew Copson, of Humanists UK, said the move “set a dangerous precedent for non-religious people fleeing persecution. The Home Office is simply incorrect to claim that non-religious people seeking asylum don’t get the same protection in law as religious people do.” The questions put to Walayat “reveal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of humanism”, he added. Walayat told the Guardian he believed his life would be in danger in Pakistan. The Home Office decision had come as a shock, he added. “I’ve told the truth and instead of believing me they are trying to find excuses to kick me out of the country,” he said. Many Christians he had encountered in the UK did not have a detailed grasp of the history of their faith, he said, “but it doesn’t mean they’re not Christian”. A Home Office spokesperson said: “The UK has a proud history of granting asylum to those who need our protection and each claim is carefully considered on its individual merits.”
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Jan 18 01:24:32 Good idea, allowing immigration based on what they have to offer the country.
Paramount Member	Thu Jan 18 05:50:41 Like cheap labor for the capitalist?
jergul large member	Thu Jan 18 08:05:10 A working knowledge of Greek philosophers is something you feel countries need more of HR?
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 18 13:23:56 More like basic claims should be examined. For instance: "I claim to be a humanist but cannot identify the preeminent humanist thinkers in history, or give anything more than a very basic and vague definition of the school of thought itself."
Seb Member	Thu Jan 18 13:42:56 Forwyn: "Andrew Copson, of Humanists UK, said the move “set a dangerous precedent for non-religious people fleeing persecution. The Home Office is simply incorrect to claim that non-religious people seeking asylum don’t get the same protection in law as religious people do.” The questions put to Walayat “reveal a fundamental misunderstanding about the nature of humanism”, he added. Fundies wanting to kill him for Apostasy won't give him a test on the deep background of humanism. This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses. And it misses the point. Refugee status is granted on the basis of threat of persecution. The evidence he'd need to present is whether he's publicly disavowed Islam in favour of a secular belief system thereby inviting persecution; not whether or not he's got a sound theoretical grasp of that system.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 18 13:44:38 Quoted the wrong bit. "In a letter in support of Walayat’s asylum application, Bob Churchill, of the International Humanist and Ethical Union, said: “For many, the broad descriptive ‘humanist’ is just a softer way of saying atheist, especially if you come from a place where identifying as atheist may be regarded as a deeply offensive statement.”
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 18 14:10:02 Right. Instead of just saying he's an atheist citizen of the world, he blindly used an existing term for a philosophic movement. Easy to blame it on ignorance, but he presented as A and couldn't defend A, so it calls his claims of B into question. "This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses." No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 18 14:15:49 Right. Instead of just saying he's an atheist citizen of the world, he blindly used an existing term for a philosophic movement. Easy to blame it on ignorance, but he presented as A and couldn't defend A, so it calls his claims of B into question. "This is like asking protestant Christians feeling ISIS to explain Luther's theses." No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism.
Pillz Member	Thu Jan 18 14:17:15 Seb desperately wanted this asylum seeker housed in his wife.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 18 17:23:11 Not Luther. Augustine. Its like asking a Christian to correctly identify a portrait of Augustine.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 18 17:27:27 Not a portrait. But correctly naming augustine as one of the more important church fathers.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 18 17:37:44 Forwyn: You may not have read the article. Humanist is typically used as an alternative to Athiest in Pakistan, as the latter is far more explicitly apostasy and involves a fuck load more persecution Also, you don't need to know plato to be a humanist. http://iheu.org/humanism/the-amsterdam-declaration/ No mention here explicitly of Plato. Just as very few protestants will be able to explain who Luther was, when he lived, what his theses were and why they were important - even if their practice and beliefs were shaped by him. See more below. RSD doesn't depend on whether not someone has used the correct taxonomy for describing their beliefs. "No, it's like asking protestant Christians to be able to identify Luther as a major figure in the history of Protestantism." Which very few protestants would do. Knowing about Luther and the history of protestantists schism from catholicism is not a key part of practicing faith. I say that as a well educated, ex Church of England, brought up in a series of schools that had various affiliations to CoE. I didn't find out about much about Luther until long after I decided it was all bunkum. It just didn't need to come up. And that's kind of obvious if you think about it. A key part about protestantism is your relationship with God, not Luthers critiques of catholicism. If you grew up in the reformed church, practicing it that way, then how is Luther relevant other than as being of historical interest in understanding how protestantism is shaped as a reaction to catholicism as practiced back in his day? And given the whole point of protestantism is your personal relationship with god and unintermediated forgiveness and redemption through Christ, cited from the gospels themselves, of course there is no need or point in emphasising some long dead theologians musings on the flaws of the cahtolic church. Instead you point to the Gospels and teachings of Jesus. Similarly, you don't need to know much about Plato to decide to live your life by the principles of humanism - see for example the Amsterdam declaration above. Understanding the philosophical underpinnings on why these tennets are virtuous and lead to a virtuous life is helpul, but non-essential. You can believe them without knowing anything about plato. And the risk of persecutuion comes from believing and espousing them - and is not therefore proven false by the fellow not knowing who Plato is. You'd prove it false by looking at whether there is a statistical risk in Pakistan from espousing such, whether there are examples of persecution, whether he could reasonably avail himself of protection by the state etc.
Seb Member	Thu Jan 18 17:45:12 jergul: Any of them. I picked Luther as I was going to do a catholic/protestant thing - but decided I didn't need to bother. Aquinas, Augestine - any of them work. You might possibly catch a christian out this way if they couldn't name the gospels and reasonably say they probably weren't a Christian. But it's dodgy as fuck though, given the risk comes from whether persecutors see the individual as an appostate, not whether they are a good christian. It would be like sending a refugee from 1930's Germany back because he's uncircumsised, doesn't practice Judaism and his mother wasn't Jewish and having a single estranged Jewish Grandfather doesn't count. Exccept it does for those persecuting the claimant. Similarly, it doesn't matter if the indvidual understands the philosophical history and underpinnings of humanism. Only that if he can show he publically professes it, is facing persecution for it as a consequnce, and has no recourse to protection from his state, then he's a refugee and has the right of asylum.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 18 21:16:44 "Its like asking a Christian to correctly identify a portrait of Augustine." Are Euros just universally bad at analogies or something? Fill in the blank: Name an important figure in the development of Christian theology:___________________ No portrait needed. Just name one. He failed, and blamed it on his med. "Humanist is typically used as an alternative to Athiest in Pakistan" "Easy to blame it on ignorance," Yes, Pakis are ignorant, that's fine. "Also, you don't need to know plato to be a humanist." "I'm a Mormon. John Smith who?" "No mention here explicitly of Plato." No mention here explicitly of anyone. Why would a summary of views need to list every person who helped develop the school of thought? "Which very few protestants would do." Again, you don't need to outline specific theses of theologians, just identify a single person who contributed to the institution. If that means denying an American teenager's refugee application based on their self-identification as Christian but failure to identify even basic Christian principles, so be it. And shouldn't this be something you embrace with open arms? Muslims aren't Muslims if they drink and smoke, after all. "Similarly, you don't need to know much about Plato to decide to live your life by the principles of humanism." You can be an Atheist and a good person without ascribing to specific philosophies. And that's probably good enough for refugee status, too.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 19 04:31:32 Forwyn: "Why would a summary of views need to list every person who helped develop the school of thought?" Ergo, why would someone who professes to live by said views need to have detailed knowledge of everyone who helped develop the school of thought? That's rather my point.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 19 04:35:39 Forwyn: "Again, you don't need to outline specific theses of theologians, just identify a single person who contributed to the institution." We don't believe in the Church as an institution. We believe in God and redemption through Jesus. You don't need to know the sligtest thing about popes, theologians etc. That's the whole fucking point of protestantism. A direct relationship with God. At best you might get away by asking if they can list the gospels. "If that means denying an American teenager's refugee" No you idijit. Refugee status is based on whether you face a credible threat. You don't need to be a good christian to be an apostate. "You can be an Atheist and a good person without ascribing to specific philosophies." Semantics. You can't deny refugee status under international customary law because the applicant mis-desccribed themselves.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 19 04:36:04 As in, used the wrong label to describe the same features.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 19 10:10:31 "detailed knowledge of everyone" No one asked for that, they asked for him to name a single Greek humanist. "We don't believe in the Church as an institution." Lawl. Are we pretending that Christian churches haven't very intentionally stood a geopolitical powers in their own right? And this is coming from an Anglican? "You don't need to be a good christian to be an apostate." But you could certainly garner an honor killing by being a bad Muslim. Is it just apostates we should take in, or is it also Muslims who drink and smoke? "You can't deny refugee status under international customary law because the applicant mis-desccribed themselves." You can deny refugee status if you're unable to confirm they aren't what they say they are. i.e. a refugee.
obaminated Member	Fri Jan 19 10:34:55 If someone is fleeing their country because of religious/political persecution they should be allowed into the Western country they flee too assuming they are willing to pledge allegiance to the new adoptive country.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 19 12:04:45 I think many refugees are willing to and is trying to adapt to our culture of grabbing women by their pussies.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 19 12:49:36 Forwyn: As you yourself noted, you have no need to know a single Greek humanist in order to know the principles and suscribe to them. It's subscribing to the principles that creates the condition of refuge status, not knowing the history of the development of the principles. So the question is irrelevant for RSD. Re the church, yup, the church is an earthly institution as is the crown and state. They are not necessary as an intermediary to redemption and Jesus. Rather they are there to spread the message. "or is it also Muslims who drink and smoke?" The test is "owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality, and is unable to or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country…" Simply drinking and smoking probably wouldn't be enough. "You can deny refugee status if you're unable to confirm they aren't what they say they are. i.e. a refugee." Tautology. In this case, not knowing who Plato is doesn't disprove that he's at risk of persecution, in the same way as a Christian Afghani might not know who Thomas Aquinas is. Or indeed he might not consider himself Christian, but by virtue of his tribe which mostly is Christian, is therefore considered Christian by his persecutors. Cf. NAZI laws defining Jews. Obaminated: Most want nothing more than a path to citizenship which means pledging allegiance.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: