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Utopia Talk / Politics / "The situation is fucking serious"
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Feb 09 14:26:01
The words are Jerzy Sarneckis, and he is referring to the increasing lethal violence and shootings in Sweden. Jerzy Sarnecki, Professor of Criminology at Stockholm University, is not known to be an alarmist in terms of crime - on the contrary. But now he is worried.

"This has taken us and the police with complete surprise," he continues. It takes time to learn how to fight this. It requires giant resources. And it actually looks very bad right now.

(in swedish but I translated the first intro^)
http://fof...el/laget-ar-javligt-allvarligt


For those of you not living in Sweden, Jerzy Sarneckis is a very prominent criminologist, famously and consistently being anti-alarmist and providing "nuance" over the past 15 years to the deteriorating situation in the Swedish "no go zones". Kudos to him for sparing us the bullshit now that the situation, that caught him completely by surprise (lol?), is fucking serious.

He should probably be fired from his position though, I mean how could this have caught him with his pants down? He was one of the main voices against all the people saying the problems were growing?!

Sam Adams
Member
Fri Feb 09 16:28:46
Rofl seb=pwnt again
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Feb 09 16:35:47
Not really, Sweden is pwnt. Seb lives in the UK with far more restrictive immigration policy. He vaccinations in Costa Rica with his lawyer wife and spends summers in France. How is he pwnt? The rantings of someone with no skin in the game on UP are meaningless, there are no risks involved saying stupid shit on UP, it's fucking UP!
Pillz
Member
Fri Feb 09 17:01:12
No wonder wtb left Sweden.
Aeros
Member
Fri Feb 09 22:54:25
The idea that importing entire culture groups from violent parts of the world would not also import the violence is perhaps the greatest idiocy buttressing Europes migration policies right now.
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 04:19:31
""This has taken us and the police with complete surprise," he continues. It takes time to learn how to fight this. It requires giant resources. And it actually looks very bad right now."



"It actually looks very bad right now" <-- what he is referring to is that the police has been taken by surprise and does not have the resources to fight the current upswing in gang violence/shootings. THAT is what is "bad" and "serious".

Further down in the article he is also saying about the shootings that "In short term it looks bad - because the police, in many areas, is lacking the competence and personel to fight it".

He continues: "In the long run, a change will occur when the police learn to handle it."

He is not being as alarmist as Nimatzo wants to portray him as. We have had gang related shootings from time to time in Sweden well over 30 years and more. Sometimes it blossoms up, then get it gets calm again.

What is different today though, compared to 20 years ago, is that 20 years ago criminals mostly shot each other in the leg. Today they shoot to kill their opponents. Because criminals knows with a 100% certainty that their opponents also have access to guns. So they can not afford a mere "leg shot". They will have to shoot to kill.

30 years ago, before the war in the Balkans, it was much harder to access guns. The last 20-30 years, weapons from the Balkans has been pouring into the country.

Compare with the USA.
Many weapons = many shootings.
Sweden 30-40 years ago: very few weapons = very little shootings.
Sweden today: More weapons = more shootings
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 04:23:49
Aeros,

"The idea that importing entire culture groups from violent parts of the world would not also import the violence is perhaps the greatest idiocy buttressing Europes migration policies right now."



So Sweden should not strive to be like the USA and import Africans and other people from various culture groups?



Man, look at the violence in the USA:


Violent Crime Is On the Rise in U.S. Cities

Violent crime increased in many of the nation’s largest cities in 2016, the second year in a row that metro areas saw jumps in homicide, robbery and aggravated assault.

According to the Major Cities Chiefs Association, which collected data from 61 metropolitan police agencies, U.S. cities saw 6,407 homicides in 2016, an 11% increase from the year before.

http://time.com/4651122/homicides-increase-cities-2016/


^ If you take a look at that map of america, you will see all the no-go-zones in america.

Even the president of the usa is very alarmed over the situation in america, and he has threatened to SEND IN THE FEDS into no-go-zones such as Chicago.



From the Economist:

Murder rates in 50 American cities

Our analysis suggests that the national HOMICIDE RATE is RISING at its FASTEST PACE since the early 1970s

Over the past two years America has become more murderous. After steadily falling for a quarter-century, the national homicide rate jumped by 11% in 2015.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/02/daily-chart-3


The USA Today lists the top-10 no-go-zones in America:

The most dangerous cities in America

10. Kansas City
9. Oakland, Calif.
8. Little Rock, Ark.
7. Baltimore
6. Rockford, Ill.
5. Milwaukee
4. Memphis
3. Birmingham, Ala.
2. Detroit
1. St. Louis

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2016/10/01/most-dangerous-cities-america/91227778/

Chicago is not even on that list, so you can imagine how dangerous it is in these ten no-go-zones ^


It is like every major city in America is a no-go-zone.

Man, how did your country become such a shithole country, Aeros?

No wonder American women are leaving the USA. They are migrating to Sweden to raise their kids here instead:

Why America's gun culture made us raise our children in Sweden

http://www.thelocal.se/20171130/americas-gun-culture-and-choosing-to-raise-our-children-in-sweden
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 06:42:21
”Compare with the USA.”

I gracefully accept your capitulation.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 07:07:54
A big part of the reason that the police where taken by ”surprise” is the intellectual yet idiots (Jerzy) and the army of whatabouting useful idiots (paramount) who have for years denied there was a growing problem. The police didn’t they police on the frontlines have been very aware and voices theor concearns. Dismissed year after year, until shit hit the fan, we now have major issues retaining cops in the force. Working conditions are horrible for police and first reponders. Total lack of respect for the soft ”weak” approach of Swedish society towards people from very conservative and harsh cultures.

Interesting dilemma. A pussified feminized country having to deal with large groups of people from patriarchal cultures who are used to a firm (brutal) disciplinary mechanism. You see this in schools as well. Kids may get beaten at home for messing up, then they come to school and it is clown college driven by post modern pedagogy. People who think kids behaving like apes in the library, well that is just culturally enriching <- true story. Indeed that is a true story from Sweden! Who are we to say that a library must conform to white Swedish norms?
I can Imagine the librarian in the house of Wisdome of Baghdad saying something along those line as the Mongols stormed in and burned it down.

But seriously whatabout the USA?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 07:22:20
”So what you are saying is we should start beating immigrant kids in schools? That is just absurd!”
-Sebot

Seb, you services are no longer needed on this forum. We now have an algorithm that does the job.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 10 08:05:21
You order the new Taleb book yet? 17 days.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 08:17:30
He has many interesting points while managing to be an asshole half the time :) I have not read any of his books, but his articles. I have more or less decided to read some more statistics, partly as a result of reading him. As soon my son has more routine and things calm down at work! Won’t be a hard sell for my employeer.

So thanks RM for introducing him to me. I guess I should thank seb as well since he made you post that article ;-)

I have been meaning to start reading him in depth. I have no idea if this new book requires previous reading of his books?
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 08:51:15
"the intellectual idiots and the army of whatabouting useful idiots have for years denied there was a growing problem"

A pussified feminized country having to deal with large groups of people from patriarchal cultures who are used to a firm (brutal) disciplinary mechanism.

kids behaving like apes in the library. Who are we to say that a library must conform to white Swedish norms?"




So now you have gone from "the police being unable to solve leathal gun violence among criminal gangs" to be a problem, to "a pussified feminized country being unable to deal with people" and to "kids being loud in the library" to be a problem.

It sounds to me that femininity is a huge problem to you, and that you long for a more patriarchal, disciplinary, firm and brutal society that we can find in the Middle East, your home country, because that is what you think is needed to solve crimes and to make kids shut up in the library.

Man, have you ever been around kids and youths – young boys or girls for that matter? They are always being loud, playing, running, shouting, being dicks and whatnots. I would say, if they actually sat still and were silent – it would be a sign of the femininity that you hate. Boys are just going to be boys. Kids will be kids.

I also doubt that being silent in a library is a "white Swedish norm". lulz
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 08:57:47
Jerzy Sarnecki, Professor of Criminology at Stockholm University:

"In short term it looks bad - because the police, in many areas, is lacking the competence and personel to fight it".


Sven Granath, criminologist and analyst at the police:

"This leads partly to the fact that the perpetrators can continue to commit crimes, and partly to that others will feel that it is risk-free to commit crimes."


^ This is what Jerzy Sarnecki is referring to is "very bad". That the criminals can continue to commit crime, and also that criminals think it is risk-free, because the police lack competence and personel to fight gang-related crime and to make any arrests. Not that Sweden is unable to deal with "people from patriarchal cultures" because it is feminized.
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 09:01:27
You are beginning to sound familiar to Breivik, Nimnazio. He also accused the country (Norway) to have become feminized, that Norwegian men had become feminized and were not allowed to be men anymore. No offense, but I think maybe you should seek psychiatrical, or some kind of help, before it is too late.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 10 09:17:55
Nimatzo
iChihuaha Sat Feb 10 08:17:30
"I have been meaning to start reading him in depth. I have no idea if this new book requires previous reading of his books?"

I have read them in order: Fooled by Randomness -> Black Swan -> Antifragile. Not sure how much it really matters.

He includes Bed of Procrustes in his Incerto series but that one is just a bunch of aphorisms. Much lighter reading compared to the rest.

Entertaining twitter follow too:
http://twitter.com/nntaleb/with_replies

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 10:34:12
"So now you have gone from "the police being unable to solve leathal gun violence among criminal gangs" to be a problem, to "a pussified feminized country being unable to deal with people" and to "kids being loud in the library" to be a problem."

Since you are exceptionally stupid, you don't understand how society is not a disconnected affair, nor how immigrant kids come into contact with Swedish society.

The Swedish school system is the first contact immigrant children have with Swedish society/system, school libraries are among the foras they socialize in. In fact it may be the _only_ contact they have if they live in a highly segregated area.

School is where they learn how Sweden "works". Tell me if we are moving too fast?

^There is a stark contrast between expectations and consequences at home and in school for misbehaving.

Since I have been in the Swedish school system from kindergarden to university and educated people myself and worked in problematic schools (and kids) (my wife in kindergarden), I have informed opinions about the system and pedagogy. Yes I follow through where I do not expect people like JZ to do. School is a very important institute for immigrant kids and how they develop later on.

Putting it in a more palatable term, Sweden is humane and very different from places like Syria, Iraq, Egypt Ethiopia etc.
However when dealing with people who are used to be whipped and beaten for behavior that in the Swedish school will get you a "serious talk", humane becomes "pussified" and toothless.

We didn't randomly end where we are, you get that? Too many people, from place too different than Sweden and your pussified capacity to deal with it too small.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEMy7uYfChA&t=227s

^This is Hamid Zafar, from Afghanistan. Apart from being a towering bodybuilder, he is a principle who took over a "no go zone" school in Göteborg that had serious issues, violence and even a murder.

He explained the "new order", he hired a bunch of teachers who were on board. He then told the teacher at the school, this is how things will work from now on, if you feel you can not stand behind it, we will give you the option to transfer to another school.

That last part is important, because he like me knows of the post modern gender theory pedagogy cancer that is partly to blame and that they would work against the more traditional approach.

Within a semester the issues with violence and disorder where gone. This "genius" of a man understands how things works "back home" and managed to apply it in the Swedish system without whipping and beating the kids.

You should listen to him Para, people like him (and me) are here to save you from yourselves. The other option is not a collapse, the social conservatives of Sweden will go full tilt and start mass deporting people before that happens.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 10:48:43
"It sounds to me that femininity is a huge problem to you"

Anything taken to an extreme is a problem, and this country is too feminine, for too masculine societies look at Russia or anywhere in the ME.

I think a society build on legal and political equality, is optimal, Sweden is not one it has tilted too far in the other direction.

But If was forced to choose between a matriarchy or patriarchy, I would pick the latter. It has a proven track record. Not a single great culture was centered around matriarchal structures. Probably because women are not as violent as men. Don't fool yourself that violence is not needed, violence never goes out of fashion. Sweden is upheld by a violence monopoly as any civilized state. We had to use a great deal of violence on the nature around us for you to sit safely in your apartment and shit post on UP on your iMac drinking "kartong vin", don't forget that ;-)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 10:59:25
Renzo
The title has me sold!
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 11:59:42
”This is Hamid Zafar, from Afghanistan. Apart from being a towering bodybuilder, he is a principle who took over a "no go zone" school in Göteborg that had serious issues, violence and even a murder.”


We had a teacher like that in my school back when I was a teenager. He was not from Afghanistan nor was he a body builder. He was Swedish, older guy, gray hair, fairly tall. But damn, every kid in the school respected him. He had a way of talking that when he told somone to sit down and be quiet, you did.

We also had teachers that you probably would call ”pussified” teachers. Teachers that kids had no respect for because they were too meek or something else. Those teachers almost let the kids rule the class room. But I don’t think it is the teacher’s fault. A math teacher is there to teach math after all, and not to police unruly kids. We also had ”fun” teachers. Teachers that made you feel that they were one of you, your pal. So, teachers does not have to be authoritan. It’s all about the chemistry between the teacher and the pupils.

Maybe the kids at Hamid Zafar’s school simply liked him, so they were willing to listen to him and be kind to him. It probably requires both some authority and social skills, and perhaps even some knowledge of the pupil’s culture will help.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 12:16:03
"But I don’t think it is the teacher’s fault."

On an individual level some teachers are wrong and have idiotic unsound views about pedagogy. But I argue that the problem is systemic, it starts on a political level and at the institutes of pedagogy. I have said it before 50% of Swedens 150+ professors in pedagogy have not been cited once outside Sweden for over 10 years.

"A math teacher is there to teach math after all, and not to police unruly kids."

I don't think it the job of a single teacher, but they certainly have a role to play. In primary education this IS one of the teachers job. But as rektor Hamid explained one of the first things they did was to clearly explain the ground rules and makes sure all teachers applied the same rules in their class regarding order. Consistency goes a long way.

"It probably requires both some authority and social skills, and perhaps even some knowledge of the pupil’s culture will help."

+1
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 12:39:04
"He was not from Afghanistan nor was he a body builder. He was Swedish, older guy, gray hair, fairly tall."

I didn't mean we need Afghani bodybuilders :P

But people like that teacher went out of fashion when Genuspedagogik came. The gender theory people look at these teachers and view them as dinosaurs. But I think that specially a good number of boys _need_ teachers like that. Those teachers make them into good men, instead of criminal apes.

Ta en titt på nationella sekretariatet för genusforskning på Göteborgs universitet, 90% kvinnor. Om jämställdhet är viktigt någonstans är det i skolan. För det är sant att kvinnor förstår kvinnor bättre och män förstår män bättre. Men av någon anledning är det viktigare att byggbranchen är jämställd, för våra behov gällande byggnadsverk är väldigt olika ;-)
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 12:42:19
About the police though, the Social Democrats are giving the police 2 billion (2 miljarder SEK) more in 2018, and 7 billion (7 miljarder SEK) throughout 2020. The Social Democrats are giving the police the means to fix things.

What did the Burgess (The Moderates) and the Liberals do about the police’s lack of resources and competence, and about the crime rate, during the time that they governed? Wasn’t the burgesses more keen to lower the taxes for the already prosperous than to fund the police?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 12:50:14
Jag är inte moderat och jag ger Alliansen mer än gärna skit där det är lämpligt. Hela migrationspolitiken är ju deras och MPs skötebarn. Problemet är att när sådana saker som nu är populärt att prata om bland sossarna yttrades av någon på högern (t.ex språktest, hårdare straff, kamera övervakning listan kan göras lång), du kommer ihåg reaktionerna? Då fiskades det i grumligt vatten!

Tänk nu på att trots sänkta skatter så fick staten in _mer_ pengar under den perioden. Skattepolitik är inte så enkel som höj skatten så blir det mer pengar.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 12:55:15
Jag är inte för alliansen, jag är i opposition till rödgröna. Om du tycker jag låter enforming i kritiken, kom ihåg att 90 av 100 år har sossarna suttit vid makten. Då blir det enformig/riktad opposition också!
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 12:58:37
”Ta en titt på nationella sekretariatet för genusforskning på Göteborgs universitet, 90% kvinnor. Om jämställdhet är viktigt någonstans är det i skolan.”

I’m not very interested in gender research, so I will not take a look at the Secretariat for Gender Research at Gothenburg University. But yes, I think equality is important, and it is important in schools and universitites too of course. But equality in absurdity, or for the sole sake of equality, is probably just stupid. But your gender should not stop you or hinder you from obtaining a profession of yoir choice. That is what is important. If you are a man who wants to be a makeup artist, or a woman who wants to work in the mines, you should be able to do it. But forcing men into the makup industry or women into the mines for the sake of equality is just dumb.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 13:15:20
"I’m not very interested in gender research, so I will not take a look at the Secretariat for Gender Research at Gothenburg University."

Fair enough. but as of 2016 and regleringsbrevet:

http://www.esv.se/statsliggaren/regleringsbrev/?RBID=17189

It is essentially part of the law. I "care" to the extent that in effects things that I care about i.e education policy. If they sit up there in their tower and produce meaningless research, I wouldn't care either, a waste of public resources for sure. But in this country it goes far beyond that.

I agree with you on equality, with one caveat. I think in certain places equality "for the sake of equality" is important. But because it actually matters. Those places IMO are the education system, political representation, and social science and probably medicine and media.

For the simple reason that I explained, women and men do not fully understand each other and in certain domains of society we need equal representation to get a full and fair picture. I will not go as far as saying we need to meet quotas, but short of that, we should strive hard to achieve it.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 13:32:26
As a result of that regleringsbrev I might add, more and more university education from nursing school to computer science are now introducing mandatory courses in gender theory.

Or lulz like this

http://nyh...vara-en-vit-heterosexuell-man/

The down side of a publicly funded system is that if stupidity infects the central authority, the subordinate institutions have few options to opt out.
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 13:54:49
If you are not a Moderate or for the Alliance, and if you are in opposition to the Red-Greens, then what are you? The only party that remains is the Swedish Democrats.


”Problemet är att när sådana saker som nu är populärt att prata om bland sossarna yttrades av någon på högern (t.ex språktest, hårdare straff, kamera övervakning listan kan göras lång), du kommer ihåg reaktionerna? Då fiskades det i grumligt vatten!”

Det är många inom S och V som tycker det fortfarande - att S har svikit sina ideal och värderingar och fiskar i grumligt vatten. Vilket dom ju faktiskt gör (fiskar i SD’s vatten alltså). S vill ju vinna tillbaka de väljare som de har förlorat till SD.

Men sådana saker som hårdare straff för vissa typer av brott och viss kameraövervakning är inte någonting som jag tycker att Alliansen eller SD har ensamrätt på. Även en S-regering måste kunna införa sådana saker. Sedan är det såklart viktigt att invandrare som vill bo i landet lär sig det svenska språket. Språket är ju liksom nyckeln till integration. Språktest är väl Liberalernas förslag från början, och Liberalerna befinner sig inte på lika grumligt vatten som SD gör :P Så språktester är ingenting att bli överdrivet upprörd över. Då kanske det finns andra saker att bli mer upprörd över där S har ”svikit”.

Sedan finns det ju vänstersossar och högersossar. Möjligtvis är det vänstersossar som har reagerat starkast på S fiskande i SD’s vatten.
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 10 13:59:14
”Or lulz like this

http://nyh...vara-en-vit-heterosexuell-man/


But aren’t questions like those good to reflect upon? What harm is there to it?
Pillz
Member
Sat Feb 10 14:34:09
No, they aren't good to reflect upon as a prerequisite to obtaining a university degree.

Maybe if the discussion were held in good faith, but it isn't. The conclusion you're to reach is predetermined and any deviation is white Supremacist and sexiest.

This is a common theme in schools anyways. I had an economics teacher who always gave his classes the same term paper. Is Pierre Peladeau Sr. a good role model for business students and aspiring entrepreneurs?

Peladeau was anti-English (anti-anglophone), a staunch supporter of Quebec nationalism and separation from Canada. So automatically I will declare from a personal perspective, I detest the man. I'd campaign to have his family striped of citizenship, exiled to the Yukon, and their legacy expunged from public records.

He was also a bit of an anti semite.

But as an entrepreneur, CEO, and all around businessman, he was hugely successful. There is no denying that.

Anyways,teacher didn't give a fuck what evidence you provided (and would dock points for using sources he said were paid for by Peladeau to write favorably about him), what arguments you presented and hoe you supported them. If you wrote anything positive about him, you failed or got a grade in the low 60s (60 being a pass in college). You could have written garbage though, and as long as you said no because he was an antisemite, you passed with flying colors.

What did his personal beliefs have to do with his business success, wherein clearly he never broke any laws with respects to his beliefs creeping into his business, who knows? But there was only a single answer you were supposed to give.

This is worse imo
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 10 14:47:27
"then what are you?"

Har inte röstat de senaste valen. När jag tar politiska kompass test, hamnar jag runt then politiska centerni bland höger ibland vänster. Jag ligger ganska högt i att vara liberal kontra auktoritär. Sist jag röstade var det ett "oranget" socialliberalt (pre alliansen) Folkparti. Jag är pragmatisk när det gäller politik. Jag kommer aldrig rösta MP, V eller SD, men tror på politisk mångfald även utanför politik, speciellt i media.

"att S har svikit sina ideal och värderingar och fiskar i grumligt vatten."

För att ideal och värderingar betalar inte skolor och vård. Verkligheten har ett fult sätt att visa sig allt för ofta. Deras svek var en fråga som avgjordes av folket. Man kan inte tvinga på mer skatter för att betala för poster i budgeten (flyktingar) när färre och färre är villiga att göra det. Öppna era hjärta = öppna era plånböcker. Man kan tycka vad man vill om det, men det är en politisk realitet att förhålla sig till.

"är inte någonting som jag tycker att Alliansen eller SD har ensamrätt på"

Ensamrätten verkar ligga hos S och Mp, om "de goda" säger det så är det OK. Om alliansen säger det, aja baja. Du behöver inte hålla med i värdefrågan, men att det finns dubbla måttstockar i vissa frågor. Så var det ju under 90' talet, Ny Demokrati hade massa förslag om invandring, som då ratades i samma ton, men sedan applicerades av sossarna. Detta hycklande min vän.

"Språktest är väl Liberalernas förslag från början, och Liberalerna befinner sig inte på lika grumligt vatten som SD gör"

Just språktest förslaget från Fp var "ett av dessa grumliga vatten" utspel som Lejonborg fick skit för :P

"But aren’t questions like those good to reflect upon?"

No, because it is an ideology based question that assumes a bunch of values and concepts that many disagree with. It is an essay built on acceptance of "intersectionality" and post modern marxist inspired ideology. You have to accept things like white heteronormativitet. In social science class, yea as a subject for debate, computer science as an accepted and objective truth, no.
Hrothgar
Member
Sat Feb 10 18:28:47
Just to put all this shit into perspective - I've lived in the USA all my life and in a city for half of it and I've never even heard a shooting or personally know anyone that got shot in 41 years.

I think the USA would be better off with no assault styled rifles or clips of over 5-6 rounds. I'd support that.

So - yeah numbers are numbers. But it's not like it's the a war zone the media likes to make it out to be.
Pillz
Member
Sat Feb 10 20:44:56
So you're a faggot afraid of shadows
PillzLovesTheCock
Member
Sun Feb 11 09:12:45
I know of faggotry.
Paramount
Member
Sun Feb 11 12:24:19
”No, because it is an ideology based question that assumes a bunch of values and concepts that many disagree with.”

Well, I still think that it would not hurt if white heterosexual men reflected upon those questions. They could just answer the questions for themselves, in their own head, and not write it down on a paper if the questions are very sensitive.
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