Utopia Talk / Politics / Russia attacks england with nerve gas

Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 07 14:28:27 Fucking putin.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 07 14:38:28 Police officer also fighting for his life too apparently. And many other civilians potentially exposed. The UK is going to have to do much more then send an angry letter this time. Could not just use a bullet could they. No had to use a banned chemical weapon.
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 14:41:10 It was a russian spy and his daughter who got nerve gassed. Not sure putin is the one behind it.
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 07 14:42:16 "Could not just use a bullet could they." Not with England's gun control laws they couldn't. Anyway, time to roll out 007 to blow up half of Moscow and shag Putin's girlfriend.
hood Member	Wed Mar 07 14:44:10 Who would have thought that it was mt that was the Russian plant.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 07 14:50:45 Lol seriously mtardo? You can count the number of countries who have ready access to Sarin with your fingers. Of those countries the only one with motive to off this guy is Russia.
hood Member	Wed Mar 07 14:52:27 And just some supplemental info: The Russian spy actually spied on Russia for the UK. Putin repeatedly wanted to kill the spy. The spy's daughter had been critical of Putin online. The spy had been convicted in Russia and was part of a prisoner exchange in 2010. But yeah, totally should just drop all suspicions of the Russians on this one.
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 07 14:53:29 Or he's just stating the truth, we don't know who did this at this point. Maybe a rogue FSB agent carried this out without Putin's knowledge. Maybe the American CIA did this is an attempt to frame Russia and cause the UK to strike back in retaliation. Maybe ISIS got their hands on some Syrian WMDs and wanted to take revenge against Assad's biggest ally. The truth is, we may never know who did this.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 07 14:56:19 Rogue agents dont find sarin lying around in purse sized aerosol form.
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 07 15:25:31 You have a higher opinion of internal Russian security protocols than I do apparently.
Paramount Member	Wed Mar 07 15:28:52 Well, don’t spy. Don’t be a traitor.
Paramount Member	Wed Mar 07 15:35:23 Maybe it was that Boris guy of England who attacked this guy, only to instigate more anti-Russian feelings.
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 15:46:51 Listen, i think we should wait for all the facts to come in before we conclude that putin killed one of his own people in a foreign country.
delude Member	Wed Mar 07 15:53:23 "Listen, i think we should wait for all the facts to come in before we conclude that putin killed one of his own people in a foreign country. " As if you don't think that this has ever happened before that made it to the media and focused upon. You're right, to an extent about facts, but the thing is you will never know the full truth of what occurred, but there still can be high speculation and I am of the opinion that most likely Putin had this done.
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 15:55:37 I think rugian, hood, ys and aeros are thr only other posters on this board who can read sarcasm. Even blatant sarcasm.
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 07 15:56:30 :)
delude Member	Wed Mar 07 15:57:30 Or is this your defense because you said something stupid? Who knows.
TJ Member	Wed Mar 07 16:13:52 chuckle
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 16:16:26 Ah the classic "hey you werent joking" defense, a constant go-to for people who dont get jokes and cant realize someone who has a history of being negative of putin would probably not rush to his defense. But yes, lets please be patient until all the gsvts come in. #fakenews
delude Member	Wed Mar 07 16:24:30 Or you have a history of saying stupid things? Who knows.
hood Member	Wed Mar 07 16:35:33 "I think rugian, hood, ys and aeros are thr only other posters on this board who can read sarcasm." Have I sunk so low to be included in such a sordid group?
yankeessuck123 Member	Wed Mar 07 16:39:24 I'll take recognition where I can get it. Even from a guy who keeps the "is he trolling or just stupid?" line ever so razor-thin.
TJ Member	Wed Mar 07 17:05:02 "The truth is, we may never know who did this." 10+
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 17:12:48 Oh i forgot to include forwyn in the "we treat most of this forum as an ongoing joke and it amuses us the people who still dont get it" club
obaminated Member	Wed Mar 07 17:16:02 But dont mind me, im just a racist mexican staying one step ahead of the white conservatives who want to eat him.
TJ Member	Wed Mar 07 17:21:52 90% of this board has always been a joke. lulz The laughs are the paramount reason I've remained.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 08 04:25:46 It may be a joke to you, but I come here to explain how stupid and deplorable you all are and help you change your ways.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 08 04:26:38 Also, this can only mean chemical war.
TJ Member	Thu Mar 08 09:44:19 You toxic masculinist!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 08 12:37:45 Please do not assume my chemistry. If you must know I identify as venomous.
TJ Member	Thu Mar 08 12:46:46 You can be venomous if you choose, after all, it is the post enlightenment. If you must know, I'm a finely aged product to be consumed by those with excellent taste.
hood Member	Thu Mar 08 12:51:57 So Nim is venomous and tj is poisonous?
TJ Member	Thu Mar 08 12:54:16 We can choose to be anything we want without being ridiculed. Consume!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 08 12:57:32 It is funny, we are always ”post” something ain’t we? It is a sure sign of ”progress” :-D
TJ Member	Thu Mar 08 12:58:41 chuckle
hood Member	Thu Mar 08 12:59:08 I'm pretty sure categorizing yourself as dangerous to society isn't without ridicule, no matter how you slice it. Now just hold still while I affix this warning label to you.
TJ Member	Thu Mar 08 13:02:30 Progress... Labels
Aeros Member	Sat Mar 10 02:02:31 Britain has deployed 180 troops to the area and is engaging in a chemical warfare decontamination procedure. Number of people exposed is up to 27
jergul large member	Sat Mar 10 06:30:19 Aeros So?
Aeros Member	Sat Mar 10 23:15:19 It's means this issue may become bigger then an annoying assassination attempt. There is talk now of calling a meeting of the North Atlantic Council. If Russia really did set off a chemical weapon in a NATO member state, retaliatory measures will be required. Probably not militarily, but definitely something that is aimed to cause direct and deliberate harm to the Russian state.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 11 03:47:32 Yes, if Russia really did. Seems like a hard thing to prove.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 11 04:24:50 Traces of the nerve agent used against former Russian spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter, Yulia, have been found at the restaurant where they ate on Sunday afternoon, the BBC understands. The substance was found in one part of Zizzi in Salisbury during a continuing forensic examination. The pair were found two hours after finishing their meal collapsed on a park bench. Both are critically ill. No-one who was in the restaurant at the same time is thought to be in danger. There is also no suggestion that anyone dining at the time had anything to do with the nerve agent. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43360420 Sounds like they were food poisoned. Maybe they ate a bad chicken or shrimp.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 11 04:35:16 If they found traces of nerve gas at the restaurant, how come no one else there got sick? But the police officer who found the man and his daughter on a park bench got infected. Something is not right here. What did the police officer do to get infected? He saw the girl laying on the bench and walked up to her and put his tongue into her mouth and forced kiss her?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Mar 11 05:22:11 This is not something that requires a lot of evidence or any direct evidence linking it to Russia for NATO to respond. A Russian spy was attacked with nerve gas, the yarn work is rather simple. Let’s not pretend that legal procedure has any relevance when the shit hits the international affairs fan.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 11 05:22:57 I know now. It must have been the police officer who infected them with the nerve gas. He must have gotten infected too while he was handling the nerve gas. Case solved. Where do I send the invoice?
Paramount Member	Mon Mar 12 13:48:07 May is now officially blaming Russia. Has Britain investigated that police officer yet? Or maybe they don’t want to, because it was Britain who wanted to ged rid of that spy. He spied on Britain for Russia, after all, and then when caught he started to talk and named Russian spies. Maybe he just gave Britain shitty intel, so May gave the order to kill him, and they used that cop to infect them with the nerve gas. Unfortunately, the cop got infected as well as he was handling the nerve gas.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Mar 12 14:33:31 Sarah Sanders dodged a question if the administration accepts May's accusation of Russia so Putin puppet strings still holding strong
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 12 15:40:15 Apparently the agent used is a unique formulation that only the Russian government possesses.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 12 15:46:15 Russia is a dangerous and fumdamentally dishonest group of people.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 12 15:47:07 If africans had white skin and were a little smarter, they would be russians.
Seb Member	Mon Mar 12 16:16:24 Paramount: No. He didn't say on Britain for Russia.
Seb Member	Mon Mar 12 16:24:27 Paramount: The agent is part of a group developed by russia under the name "novochuk" - newcommer. One form is a fine powder that can be put on clothing etc. and can take 18 hours to have an effect. So say it was dosed on their clothes. Secondary contamination would be an issue. But this police officer, suppose in providing initial first aid, did things like loosen or remove items of clothing. He could then have had direct contamination. That's one example. Quite being a mad conspiracy theorist.
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 12 21:42:31 This really should not stand. If Russia had common decency, they would have shot the man (and maybe his daughter) and been done with it. That would have sent the message without creating the potential geopolitical firestorm that deploying a chemical weapon sets off. Britain should not allow this stand, and NATO should not allow this to stand. If Russia had set off a similar chemical attack in New York City, you can bet your ass there would be dire consequences. We sent a cruise missile into Damascus because Assad used chemical weapons against his own people. We would be fully prepared to send a cruise missile into Moscow if Putin used chemical weapons against OUR people. And people under our protection count as OUR people. If Russia wanted to retaliate for us sending a conventional warhead into FSB HQ because they set off a chemical weapon on our soil, they are more then welcome to risk the absolutely genocidal and total annihilation that would fall on the Russian people as consequence. The UK should do the same. Send a cruise missile from your subs straight into moscow and blow up the FSB HQ. What will Russia do? Nuke you?
Aeros Member	Mon Mar 12 21:47:20 Last I checked, the UK had nukes. Deploy all the subs, launch retaliation strikes against the Russian Foreign Service and Intelligence apparatus conventionally. If they choose to use their nukes in retaliation, (which they won't), unleash the UK's manifest seconds strike capability and exterminate every Russian alive. Putin is bluffing with a weak hand. Call it.
Paramount Member	Tue Mar 13 02:07:03 ”If Russia had common decency, they would have shot the man (and maybe his daughter) and been done with it.” Or they could have followed America’s example and drone strike him to death.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 13 02:41:35 Aeros: Chemical weapons are banned on the battlefield. Nerve agent poisons skirt that. Response is necessary, your proposed course of action is going to cause far more damage to the UK. The objective is to get Russia to stick to norms of espionage. Breaking those norms further only further justifies future Russian behaviour. Military reprisals are not warranted, stick to recognised espionage norms, find ways to apply more pressure though. These are: confiscate Putin's money, leak dammaging information, no more prisoner swaps. If we were going to do mad stuff, kill Anna Chapman is better than nuke Moscow.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 05:11:09 Aeros A cruise missile would not make it through Russian air defences. Seb The norms of espionage involve individual targeting and actively killing people. I frown on that because Westphalia. But it is what it is for now. Is not the UK pretty close to sanctioned out on Russia? Expel 73 diplomats would be my start. Now that May has publically accused Russia of being the source of the poison at least. The UK has to follow up in a visible way.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 05:33:45 But it certainly is a stretch to claim Russia is the sole source of novichok. The family was developed in the 1970-1980s. This means the USSR. Its individual chemical components are not on a banned list. I would be suprised if variant recipes are not available online (abeit in the dark net) in anarchist handbook type documents. A pandora box thing. Once people, companies and governments know something is possible, then it is possible. May's line of evidence is very weak.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 05:37:52 It does not matter practically. If Russia is going to be accused for things it does or does not do, then it may as well do it (there are probably quite a few individuals Russia would ideally prefer no longer existed). So May's speech forces strong action. The internal affairs of princes have to be their own after all.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Mar 13 09:29:56 FOURTEEN AND A HALF CERTAINTIES ABOUT THE CASE OF SERGEI SKRIPAL By John Helmer, Moscow In cases like the poisoning of Sergei and Yulia Skripal, the only way to proceed is by identifying the evidence which proves with certainty what happened; or failing that, proves with certainty what did not happen. Perpetrator, co-conspirators, method, motive, intention – all come later, if they come at all. At the moment, according to police and government releases and the British state media, the crime scene in Salisbury is being combed by at least 250 police officers; with another 180 military personnel specializing in chemical warfare. Dozens more electronic surveillance and cyber-warfare agents are also engaged. The crime scene locations include the Skripal house; the cemetery graves of Skripal’s wife and son; the Mill public house where Skripal and his daughter had a drink; the Zizzi restaurant where they ate before collapsing; and the public areas where they walked between house, pub, restaurant, the Maltings shopping precinct, and park bench. At least 240 pieces of evidence have reportedly been identified as such, not counting the Skripal house, and 200 witnesses interviewed, including Wiltshire Police Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey. He developed symptoms after being despatched to the Skripal house. That is, after the Skripals had been found and hospitalized. According to Lord Ian Blair, a former Metropolitan Police Commissioner, “there are some indications that the police officer who was injured had been to the house, whereas there was a doctor who looked after the patients in the open, who hasn’t been affected at all. So there maybe some clues floating around in here.” Blair said this on the BBC. His disclosure, also confirmed in several newspapers, provides the first certainty in the case: the Skripals came into contact with the poison for the first time inside their own home. They then went out to the pub and the restaurant. Certainty No. 2 – the poison cannot have been fast-acting for them at home. Certainty No. 3 – the poison was faster-acting for Sgt Bailey because he developed symptoms almost immediately at the Skripal house. Follow the next eleven certainties. Certainty No. 4. Prime Minister Theresa May has identified the poison as a “military grade nerve agent…part of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok.” Listen to May making her announcement in the House of Commons yesterday. Certainty No. 5. Novichok components are harmless until they are combined. Once that is done, and the mixture dispersed, the poison acts swiftly to attack the nervous system, triggering heart and lung failure, and death by suffocation. Note: the Soviet development of Novichok was designed to be undetectable by NATO standard chemical detection equipment. It is not certain how the British could detect an undetectable Russian substance; read more. Certainty No. 6. The time between exposure and death is minutes. Sgt Bailey suffered contact with Novichok at the Skripal house, and developed symptoms very quickly. After they had left their home on Sunday afternoon, the Skripals spent more than an hour before developing symptoms. It is certain, therefore, that there were two sites of active poisoning. The Skripals must have carried the poison from their home through the streets to the mall, the pub, and the restaurant, before they were exposed. The large numbers of police, special service agents and soldiers have been deployed in order to trace the route the Skripals took, and all points at which they stopped, in order to identify, measure and map all concentrations, then dilute or destroy them for public safety. Certainty no. 7. The British forces have inventoried all contents of the Skripal home, and verified all deliveries to the house, including mail and packages before last Sunday. They are certain to know if there are traces of the chemical components required for the Novichok combination, and whether these traces are in separate locations of the house. It is certain they have asked themselves how the nerve agent was active in the house to strike Sgt Bailey, but inactive for the Skripals until hours later. Certainty No. 8. The British secret services and the Porton Down Defence Science and Technology Laboratory near Salisbury know what contact, if any, there has been recently between Skripal, his British secret service contacts and the Porton Down lab. Certainty No. 9. The British Government agencies have informed Prime Minister May if samples of Novichok components, and of the active nerve agent itself, are in stock at Porton Down. Certainty No. 10 The Prime Minister has not informed the House of Commons if Novichok is — or was until Sunday evening — in stock at Porton Down. Certainty No. 11. Although the British, American, and Russian secret services have the electronic capability to have been monitoring the Skripal house, Yulia Skripal on her travel from Moscow to Salisbury, and Sergei Skripal at home, in advance of the poisoning, they are unlikely to have been doing so on Sunday afternoon. British sources add that the security perimeter for the Porton Down establishment doesn’t extend the nine kilometres (twelve by road) to Salisbury town. However, it is certain, the sources acknowledge, that in retrospect the British and American services will have identified all unusual mobile telephone, other electronic signals and encrypted messaging around the Skripals on Sunday, including computer, internet and mobile telephone signals the Skripals sent and received before the Sunday events. Just as certainly, the Russian services will have the retrospective capacity to follow the communications of all their agents in the vicinity, if any there were. It is sure that if there had been a Russian operation targeting Skripal, an unusual volume of electronic evidence would now be visible to the British and Americans — and the Russians would know it. Certainty No. 12. The Russian Foreign Ministry has not yet summoned the British Ambassador, Laurie Bristow, to present the electronic evidence — if the British Government has it. Alexander Yakovenko, the Russian Ambassador in London, has yet not been to the Foreign Office to request the Foreign Secretary’s evidence. Nor has he been recalled to Moscow for consultations, yet. Certainty No. 13. The Russian Security Council has not been called into formal session since February 26. This two-week gap is an unusually long one. It is certain that President Vladimir Putin has requested Council members Sergei Lavrov of the Foreign Ministry, Sergei Shoigu, the Defense Minister, and the heads of the security and intelligence services to report what evidence they have; their assessment of what happened to the Skripals; and their view of the seriousness of the Skripal case for Russian state interests. Certainty No. 14. It is the ministerial consensus, particularly Lavrov’s and Shoigu’s, that the seriousness of the case is very grave. Half-certainty. Sir Andrew Wood, 78, was the British Ambassador to Russia between 1995 and 2000. Since then he has been making his living selling opinions on Russia to commercial organizations and think-tanks. He has also been caught lying in public about his commercial involvement with Christopher Steele, and the role the two of them played together during the American presidential election campaign to accuse President Donald Trump of improper collusion with the Kremlin. Wood’s story can be followed here. On March 10, the Guardian reported Wood as accusing the Russian intelligence services of an official assassination attempt against the Skripals. “I don’t doubt”, Wood told the newspaper, “[the poisoning] had general approval from senior heads – that’s the system he’s [Putin] created. Since 2012 Russia has been going backwards, rejecting economic reform and better courts in favour of renewed state control and repression, a fear of anything that is other. It’s the revival of Stalinism and the idea that Russia has the right to dominate its neighbours.” Read the newspaper report in full. It is certain Wood had no evidence to substantiate his allegation at the time he spoke. It is equally certain he had no doubt of it. With Wood’s record for veracity, these two certainties add up to a fraction less than one. by Editor - Tuesday, March 13th, 2018 http://joh...ut-the-case-of-sergei-skripal/
Seb Member	Tue Mar 13 10:11:19 jergul: "The norms of espionage involve individual targeting and actively killing people." Er, no. That's assassination. Espionage - contrary to james bond - is about information gathering. And secondly no, people who have been pardonned and swapped have etraditionally not been considered revenge targets. "Is not the UK pretty close to sanctioned out on Russia?" No. We have not done much in terms of visa restrictions for certain people who are holding Putin and his top teams wealth, or frozen their assets. Which we could do. IIRC, it SHA's recommendation was 76 actually, and accuse the Russian Ambassador's chauffer of being a KGB leiutenant general. "I would be suprised if variant recipes are not available online (abeit in the dark net) in anarchist handbook type documents." It was a secret programme, and there are a huge number of reported agents many of which probably aren't it. So I think the indicator here is if the agent actually *is* the one that the defector disclosed as opposed to one of the many random organophosphates that have been attributed to be "Novichok". Swordtail: Classic FUD piece setting up and knocking down strawmen "Novichok components are harmless until they are combined." True of any nerve agent. "Note: the Soviet development of Novichok was designed to be undetectable by NATO standard chemical detection equipment. It is not certain how the British could detect an undetectable Russian substance; read more." Designed in the 70's to be undetectable. But once revealed by the defector, then obviously people would then work on tets to detect it. And of course, the fact it went to porton down and took a few days means it probably wasn't a standard test (whether a standard test from the 70's or updated ones). "The time between exposure and death is minutes. Sgt Bailey suffered contact with Novichok at the Skripal house, and developed symptoms very quickly." Depends entirely on contact and dose strength - the exposure patterns could be quite different. It is not clear that Sgt Bailey was exposed at the house. Indeed, he was a first responder when they were found on the park bench. Where has this idea he was exposed at the house come from?
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 10:23:24 Seb Ok. The norm for covert government operations involve both individual targetted assasinations and espionage. I am pretty sure he was not a revenge target in any meaningful sense. An example perhaps, or perhaps his current activity was against Russian State interests. The problem as I see it is that of sovereignity and individual targeted attacks (the idea of trying to kill a specific person, as opposed to say random members of an organization who happen to be at a certain location. A military HQ meets that random criteria. One attacked why the British minister of defence was present because he was present would not meet the criteria). But our views diverge in principle here. We do not have to rehash it. Disclosed evidence is still weak. A confirmed signature drug that is not available elsewhere would be a much stronger point. But it matters not. May has planted the flag, so has to stand by it now. No matter the evidence. The integrity of State and all that. 76? Heh. Close enough :-).
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Mar 13 10:35:00 article 5
Seb Member	Tue Mar 13 11:02:49 jergul: So, lets be clear, this kind of covert governemnt action is a no no. Generally, we don't go around killing officials of rival governments. Of course, if Putin is saying that we should treat representatives of foreign governments in the same way we treat active terrorists threats in areas where we have no recourse to the local state taking effective action, that's a big fucking shift in norms. " A confirmed signature drug that is not available elsewhere would be a much stronger point." Which is basiccally the point they are making. A confirmed compound only known to have been manufactured by Russia, requiring significant expertiese - and as part of an ongoing pattern of activity. Inviting Russia to account for how it is they have lost control of this compound and associated IP is a fair request.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 11:12:29 Seb Russia wanting to actually see what compound it is is also a fair request. To me that infers Russia is not completely discounting the poison may have come from one of its labratories and wants to sniff at the chemical trail. Russia disputes the ongoing pattern claim. They are not providing evidence to support that point. Individual targeting is a pretty big shift. Skripal is not a Government official. And to be clear: States should respect the integrity of other States. Including their rights to provide sanctuary.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 11:13:19 But all this is moot. May has blamed Russia and planted the flag. She now has to act in defence of the integrity of her Sovereign State.
murder Member	Tue Mar 13 11:21:46 "A cruise missile would not make it through Russian air defences." lol! Of course it would.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 11:26:51 Murder Sub-sonic? Check Never.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 11:32:59 The Guardian reports another Russian formerly at odds with the regime is dead.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Mar 13 13:16:28 Home/UK News/ ‘Just because the poison was made in Russia doesn’t mean they’re behind it’ – ex-MI5 officer (VIDEO) Published time: 13 Mar, 2018 13:53 Edited time: 13 Mar, 2018 16:59 Ex-MI5 agent Annie Machon has dismissed the PM's claims that the origin of the nerve agent used to attack former Russian double agent Sergei Skripal is indicative of an attack from the Kremlin. She explained why to RT’S Bill Dod. The former MI5 intelligence officer ignored calls from politicians to boycott the TV network in the midst of the Skripal scandal, sitting down with RT to discuss the latest in the Salisbury case. While many pointed the finger at Moscow after it was alleged that the weapon was a military-grade agent developed in Russia, Machon raised a question that many seem to have forgotten to ask: Where’s the motive? “From the very start of this story… they need to work out what the motive was,” she said. “Skripal was a guy who had been caught by the Russians. He’d been tried and convicted, sent to prison, and then released and pardoned by the Russians, and sent back to the UK. He had been debriefed – picked clean, intelligence-wise, both by the Russians… and by MI6 when he came to live in the UK. So what is the motive there?” she asked. The ex-MI5 officer, who resigned in 1996 to blow the whistle on the incompetence and crimes of spies, continued to explain to Dod that – just because the chemical weapon was supposedly developed in Russia – it does not necessarily mean the attack was state-sanctioned. “(Chemical) agents can be developed and used by governments all over the world,” she said. “If this Novichok agent was developed in Russia, it doesn’t mean it’s stayed in Russia - [any more than] any of the other agents developed by Germany, the USA, or the UK have stayed in their own countries." “The fact that the… UK facility for identifying those agents was able to identify this very quickly would indicate that they know exactly what this nerve agent is, which means that they have the chemical formula for it too. So, who knows where it came from? “It might have been developed in Russia, but it doesn't mean that is state-sanctioned by Russia. It's a damaging conflation in a particularly sensitive diplomatic time." If you like this story, share it with a friend! http://www.rt.com/uk/421158-russia-spy-mi5-machon/
murder Member	Tue Mar 13 14:15:18 "Murder Sub-sonic? Check Never." Also subsonic ... the B-2 bomber. And of course the nuclear tipped cruise missles the B-52 is tasked with targeting Russia with. Subsonic is a non-issue.
hood Member	Tue Mar 13 14:27:14 Rt.... Ok then.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 13 14:41:53 Murder You lost site of the context. Aeros wanted the UK to do a show of force thing firing a single cruise missile at Moscow. That would fail. Complex saturation attacks are a different matter. But ICBMs would be the correct tool for destoying high value and highly defended targets.
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 13 14:42:06 Curious that only RT and Daily Express have given Ms. Machon a platform. CNN loves former UK intel officers.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Mar 13 15:30:34 http://www...6-informant-swap-a8244356.html
Seb Member	Tue Mar 13 16:23:44 Yeah, this is Annie Machon who was partnered with David Shayler - a bit of a discredited coockoo. As you say "to blow the whistle on the incompetence and crimes of spies" only the aledged crimes were clearly fictional and in several cases disproved. Also, the aledged crimes that they were blowing the whistle on would have been activites of MI6 (SIS), which as MI5 (domestic counter inteligence and terrorism in a different organisation) they would have had no knowledge or access to. "So what is the motive there?" Well, lets see. 1. Signaling to others that traitors get stuffed - he's an easy target with low levels of protection given he is thought to be in the clear. 2. He's close to Steele. It's worth noting that a number of people who had been go-betweens between Russian contacts and the various people swirling around Trump such as Manafort who Muller is tryig to flip right now - again - a message "collaborators and traitors get murdered". 3. He was actively cooperating on the ongoing case in Spain that Litvenenko was involved in, so again another more current potential motive.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Mar 13 16:30:43 lol
jergul large member	Wed Mar 14 12:32:57 MOSCOW, March 14. /TASS/. London has handed to Moscow a list of 23 Russian diplomats declared personae non grata, with the embassy’s military diplomats put on it, Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova said in the 60 Minutes program on Rossiya’24 channel. "Today, the list was handed to the Russian side, we have it," she said. "They are Russian diplomats. Among them are military diplomats. Those people are ordered to leave the United Kingdom within seven days." More: http://tass.com/politics/994115 ========== That was a bit underwhelming.
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 14 12:36:55 Outside of seizing the half of central London that's owned by Russian oligarchs, I'm not sure what you were expecting.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 14 12:50:10 I was expecting 73 diplomats to be expelled as mentioned earlier in this thread.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 14 13:04:23 I think alot of residents in London would cheer if May liquidated Russian owned property holdings there. Unfortunately that would also piss off the investment bankers that own May, so she won't do that. Russia and China know exactly how to keep a liberal democracy by the balls. Don't try and control the politicians. Control the bankers, and they will control the politicians for you.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Mar 14 13:08:45 Mmmm I can feel warmth of the cold war around me. Cozy.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 14 13:32:06 Jergul: It's May. You were expecting too much. But she's accidentally done the right thing as to respond properly means a fairly big strategic shift that needs time to play out and lock allies into responding. So start with diplomats and the investigation of previous murders that were glossed over. You need to have ammunition for that. Anyway, we should keep our options open. We may have areas of common cause with Russia before too long. Once again, its 76. Aeros: Bankers wouldn't give a shit. Bankers are millionaires, not billionaires. Kicking out the oligarchs would make chelsea and Kensington affordable for millionaires again.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 14 13:38:34 The Millionaires love the commissions they get selling those Chelsea row houses to Russians who need a way to launder the millions of dollars they made stealing from the Russian taxpayers and selling kidnapped Ukrainian girls to Turkish owned brothels in Germany.
Paramount Member	Wed Mar 14 13:40:19 ”From the very start of this story… they need to work out what the motive was,” she said. “Skripal was a guy who had been caught by the Russians. He’d been tried and convicted, sent to prison, and then released and pardoned by the Russians, and sent back to the UK.” Yeah, if the Russians wanted him killed, to signal to others that traitors will not live long, then the Russians could have killed him in the Russian jail that he was at. But they didn’t. They released him and even pardoned him. I’m not 100% convinced that Russia is guilty of the nerve gas ”attack”. Perhaps he was killed by the Brits because this guy was a double agent.
hood Member	Wed Mar 14 13:45:58 He was arrested by Putin's regime and then released while Putin was out of office from 08-12. If this is some form of revenge for Putin, the timing makes sense. He wasn't going to pull it during Obama's years, but now that the pushover Trump is in office, he's pretty much free to go after US allies as he wants.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 14 13:50:25 Aeros: That's estate agents, not investment banking. The UK banking sector was coining it in long before Yeltsins reforms created the oligarchs. The city markets shift trillions. The oligarchs aren't important to that industry. Paramount: The wrong question. Who is the signal aimed at? Trading skiporal for ten illegals (including Anna chapman) allowed Putin to play a failure as a win. Now, he can milk him and: 1. Send a general deterrent to spies and Hypothetically: 2. Hypothetically, focus Manaforts mind 3. Derail a court case in Spain that might reveal details of Putin's looting of the state and/or confiscation of his assets 4. Ensure that people like Christopher Steele etc have very strong doubts about the ability of western govts to protect them should they testify to Muller etc.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 14 13:50:27 There did however used to be a gentleman's agreement not to mess with Spies exchanged in swaps so long as they stayed out of the game afterwords and were set out to pasture in lives of anonymity and mediocrity. Which by all accounts was what Skripal was doing. The true tit for tat would be to murder Russian spies we exchanged in swaps. Or maybe spies who escaped to Russia to escape imminent arrest. Maybe we should put Mustard Agent into Snowdens red bull.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Wed Mar 14 13:54:57 Louise Mensch‏Verified account @LouiseMensch · 5h5 hours ago  More The seizure of Russian assets and expulsion of diplomats is a welcome warm-up to the UK’s further response. @putinRF guarantees Muscovites will have increased sanctions and he can expect a military response too. How long must Russians suffer for the recklessness of this fool?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Mar 14 13:56:21 The Brits have called it an act of war and she is shipping the main bad guys home. If this turns into a hot war and the PM can convince NATO that it was indeed an Act of War then we will be drawn into it too. Let's see if the Russians move troops to
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Mar 14 13:57:10 The Brits have called it an act of war and she is shipping the main bad guys home. If this turns into a hot war and the PM can convince NATO that it was indeed an Act of War then we will be drawn into it too. Let's see if the Russians move troops to
Paramount Member	Wed Mar 14 13:58:47 ... to?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Mar 14 14:14:55 Sorry, my computer decided it was time to update some of my files so I had to restart my computer. "Let's see if the Russians move troops to" the Polish border. If they do you better stock up on groceries with a long shelf life. *****Take a look at my next thread. I have a question about survival readiness.*****
Seb Member	Wed Mar 14 14:25:57 So not going up happen. War with Russia might derail brexit
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 14 14:37:52 May was a Remainer before the referendum, maybe dragging the UK into war with Russia is her way of gaining sufficient cover to cancel Brexit.
Aeros Member	Wed Mar 14 15:07:35 As amusinv as it would be to see how Putin wpuld extricate himself from an escalating military crisis with the UK I do not see that happening. May just does not have the neccesary support in parliament to do more then write angry letters.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 14 15:34:24 Seb I am pretty sure I said 73 was about appropriate. Bbc says 23 (I just rechecked), which is underwhelming. Ironically, May is the one sending, focusing, derailing, and ensuring. "1. Send a general deterrent to spies and Hypothetically: 2. Hypothetically, focus Manaforts mind 3. Derail a court case in Spain that might reveal details of Putin's looting of the state and/or confiscation of his assets 4. Ensure that people like Christopher Steele etc have very strong doubts about the ability of western govts to protect them should they testify to Muller etc." The Russian regime is denying involvement.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 14 16:07:45 The dictators of russia have 0 credibility. Even less than us politicians.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 14 16:31:04 Rugian: Theressa May isn't that imaginative. Aeros: This issue is the thing she has most support over. She wouldn't have support for military action because basically nobody sane thinks that's a sensible and proportionate response and for that matter. Jergul: Sir Humphrey wants me to let you know you have it wrong. The number should be 76. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhVaSWYcdyQ
Rugian Member	Wed Mar 14 16:54:15 Смерть всегда предателям славной Матери-России
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