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Utopia Talk / Politics / Best place in the world to be a woman
Paramount
Member
Sun Mar 18 15:47:30
Is this the best place in the world to be a woman?

When Christine Osazuwa arrived in Stockholm in July 2017, it was the first time the Baltimore native had stepped foot on Swedish soil.
But she’d already made up her mind to stay. And having survived her first winter, she’s convinced that she made the right decision.

So just how did an American with no apparent connection to Sweden wind up living in Stockholm?

“I knew what most Americans know about Sweden, that it’s very liberal and there are a lot of opportunities,” Christine tells The Local.

Following the US election, Christine and her husband packed their bags and figuratively set sail for Stockholm, seeking a city more in line with their political beliefs.

For Christine, it was also a priority to move somewhere she could fulfil her potential as a woman.

The couple knew about Sweden’s glowing reputation for equality — a reputation often galvanised as ranking after ranking declares it the best (or thereabouts) at, well, nearly everything.

In 2017, Sweden was ranked number one in the world regarding its commitment to reducing inequality and, just recently, The Economist named it the best country in the world to be a working woman.

To top it off, Sweden has never finished lower than fourth in the annual Global Gender Gap report which, since 2006, has measured equality in economics, politics, education, and health.

Impressive, yes, but rankings aren’t everything. What’s the point in being the poster child for equality if reality doesn’t live up to the expectation?

When it comes to gender equality, however, Sweden’s capital doesn’t just talk the talk. Stockholm is proof that a whole city can embrace equal opportunities and emerge stronger and more prosperous on the other side.

For the first six months, Christine took Swedish lessons and worked remotely as a consultant before being offered a full-time role as a data analyst at Universal Music Group.

On starting her new job, she was pleasantly surprised to find the two people working alongside her on the analyst team were both women.

“It was a totally new experience for me,” she says.

Christine has also been amazed by how many of her Stockholm-based female friends have high-flying careers in tech, typically a male-dominated industry. One friend, she says, has just landed a role at a video game company while another is a software developer at Spotify.

“My female friends are all working in jobs that would almost 100 percent be done by men in the States. It’s so interesting to be in this situation, and amazing that young girls can constantly see role models that look like them.”

But it hasn’t always been the case. As with most countries, the situation for women in Sweden wasn’t as promising in the past as it is today.

However, there’s one crucial difference. Sweden also has a long track record of doing something about it.

Questions, at least, about gender roles were already being raised by Swedish women as far back as the seventeenth century.

England’s Mary Wollstonecraft may be credited with publishing one of the first feminist treatises in 1792, but it was almost exactly 100 years before that, in 1693, that Stockholm born-and-bred writer Sophia Elisabet Brenner published her poem Det Qwinliga Könetz rätmätige Förswar (The justified defence of the female sex).

Refusing to be silenced, Swedish women continued to fight discrimination throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

In 1761, Hedvig Charlotta Nordenflycht fired back at the misogyny of Genevan philosopher Rousseau in her poem Fruentimrets försvar (Defense of Women), while the 1800s saw the formation of a string of charitable women’s societies dedicated to helping poor females work and support themselves.

Although Swedish women didn’t achieve suffrage until 1921, a year after American women were granted the vote and three years after British women, in the following years they attained vast improvements in both their civil and political rights.

By 1925, they were able to vote in general elections, had property rights for married women, and access to higher positions in the civil service.

Furthermore, Sweden’s neutrality during World War II put it in a position of strength while many other countries in Europe were in ruins, explains Annika Olsson, Senior Lecturer in Gender Studies at Stockholm University.

This gave Sweden a critical head start to bolster both society and economy while other countries were quite literally building from the ground up.

A turning point, says Olsson, came in the 1960s, when Sweden’s social democratic government brought in a series of reforms that gave women more equality of opportunity.

People were taxed as individuals and not on a family basis, arming women with more individual rights and status. This was followed by the first equal status policy which was included in the working programme of the Labour Party in 1965.

Demand for female labour grew in the 1970s as the possibilities to combine work and family also increased. The introduction of free daycare for six-year-old children was the first step in a long line of programs expanding daycare and facilitating the return of mothers to the workforce.

“It was a movement in many spheres that contributed to the public discussion of gender equality,” says Olsson.

“It happened within the political parties but also in academia, and at the same time the unions were also pushing for reform involving gender equality such as no sexual harassment in the workplace and equal pay.”

In Olsson’s opinion, this collective push for equality was what really drove the change.

In the years following the radical reforms of the sixties and seventies, the dust gradually settled and a society has emerged where equality comes naturally.

And nowhere in Sweden is this better illustrated than in Stockholm.

The capital is a model example of a gender-equal society in full swing; a booming and increasingly cosmopolitan city where women are flourishing professionally and personally.

Signs of gender equality are evident everywhere, from men taking their toddlers to preschool in pushchairs every morning to women rising the ranks in traditionally male-dominated industries.

Stockholm is also a breeding ground for female entrepreneurs, observes Christine.

“I see way more female founders and CEOs here,” she says of her experience networking in the city.

In fact, there’s more female everything in the Swedish workforce.

Women hold 47.5 percent of jobs in Sweden, and 32 percent of board positions in listed companies. While there’s still some work to go to get more female board members, this is still far higher than the European average of 23 percent.

Asked why she thinks this is the case, Christine says that during her first few months in Stockholm she attended many events aimed specifically at women. From all female hackathons to women’s-only networking events, the women in Stockholm have formed a supportive sorority where they feel safe to discuss their ideas and develop their skills.

“My guess is women here just feel more comfortable about getting involved. It’s a really exciting environment,” she says.

And while Stockholm’s economic success in recent years can’t be exclusively credited to more women in the workforce, increased gender equality is reaping positive results in businesses worldwide.

In a 2017 study, McKinsey found that companies in the top quartile for gender diversity were 21 percent more likely to experience above-average profitability than companies in the fourth quartile.

And when it comes to gender diversity, you’d be hard-pressed to find a city where it’s more widespread than Stockholm. It’s what makes it the best place in the world to be a woman.

“This is absolutely a good place for women,” says Christine. “I feel so safe here which is completely different to what I’m used to. I have every opportunity to succeed in Stockholm.”

http://www...-a-woman-investstockholm-tlccu

Maybe my city will be flooded with American women soon. Hopefully they will be single and cute.
kargen
Member
Sun Mar 18 17:24:09
A good interview that in part touches on this idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54
Dukhat
Member
Sun Mar 18 18:52:08
Kargen comes up with some retarded bullshit about Jordan B. Petersen.

They had that dude debate the most unlikable SJW feminist retard ever so that right-wing men can overgeneralize liberals as oppressive retards.

Good job at bringing in a red herring idiot.
Hrothgar
Member
Sun Mar 18 19:15:13
FALSE. My bed is the best place in the world it is to be a woman.

<snare drum/symbol>
kargen
Member
Sun Mar 18 20:22:04
my post was at least on topic if you decide to actually watch it.

All you offered was an insult and some dribble.

I guess you will want your participation ribbon now.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 19 07:21:09
Women now make more money than men in Sweden as architects and vetrinarians (2017).
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 19 08:29:29
Hrothgar
"My bed is the best place in the world it is to be a woman."

That would depend entirely on how much you pay her.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 19 10:37:17
Cost basis...

Gain or loss...

Current value...

It is always about money. hahaha
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 19 12:09:34
"Women now make more money than men in Sweden as architects and vetrinarians (2017)."

Funny how this is considered a point of pride, rather than as a troubling sign of gender inequality in those industries.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 19 12:19:50
Its funny how an expectation of equal pay is assumed to mean that there can be no variations around an equal average.

In an ideal world, women will make more than men in 50% of industries and men will make a similar amount more in 50% of industries (by employment).

Who knows, maybe even an industry might give exactly equal pay in a given year. Strangers things have happened.
patom
Member
Mon Mar 19 12:48:05
When I worked at the County Jail as a corrections officer we were all paid the same. Union contract.
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 19 12:51:52
Fine. I'll be happy with women janitors making more than their male counterparts, as long as male investment bankers can continue making more than women.
Aeros
Member
Mon Mar 19 13:11:07
"They had that dude debate the most unlikable SJW feminist retard ever so that right-wing men can overgeneralize liberals as oppressive retards."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81f748gBaTs
Paramount
Member
Mon Mar 19 13:13:42
”When I worked at the County Jail as a corrections officer we were all paid the same. Union contract.”

Does the number of years that you have worked an impact on your salary? Or does new correction officers get the same salary as someone who has worked there for 10 years?
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 19 13:42:51
da best country for women is china.

china has largest amount of female billionaires and millionaires. da facts speak for themselves.

Paramount
Member
Mon Mar 19 13:44:05
You gonna move there soon?
patom
Member
Mon Mar 19 15:39:32
Paramount, Longevity had an equal effect on all Corrections Officers. There was a step up in pay the longer you worked there. However all started at equal pay. It was all laid out in the Union Contract.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Mar 19 15:49:06
The problem with stockholm for ladies is that all the men are gay. Then again if you are a man hating sjw, it could work out.
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 19 15:59:48
That's not a problem, if a Swedish woman wants a deep dicking she has merely to take a train to Malmo and stand on a street corner.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 19 16:03:24
Ruggy
Well, a lot of investment bankers would have to be hung from lamposts for that to balance out as equal pay on average across sectors.

But I am good with that.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Mar 19 19:51:41
I think the most serious issue with pay equality is in the loss of your most intelligent women from the breeding pool. I agree with the economic studies that the single largest factor in the wage gap is that women tend to support men in their careers rather than the other way around.

Many of these swedish women are effectively asexual and have a much lower birth rate than the rest of the population.

So while it's cute that the pay gap doesn't exist in Sweden for the short-term, the demographics of sweden mean that the future will be dominated by the darkies that have lots of kids. I'm sure Nimatzo is taking his anti-feminist rage on his wife everynight and producing a whole squadron of would-be suicide bombers.

Meanwhile these female engineers at Spotify are so happy making the same as men and then spending their free time working on their organic gardens rather than having kids.

patom
Member
Tue Mar 20 05:39:14
You are under the assumption that women can only perform one task at a time.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 05:50:33
Dukhat
Having kids is not smart. Particularly for women, and particularly in a climate where you get to choose between having children, or being in the middle-class economic segment.

Check out any poverty measure you might care to wave a stick at.
smart dude
Member
Tue Mar 20 08:28:52
"Best place in the world to be a woman"

my bedroom.
smart dude
Member
Tue Mar 20 08:29:16
shit hrothgar beat me to it
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 08:53:21
"I think the most serious issue with pay equality is in the loss of your most intelligent women from the breeding pool."

Are more people conflating success with intelligence? Why yes, yes they are. They also appear to be suggesting that women going into high paying jobs were going to be massive breeders before they got equal pay, but now that they can make a few % more money in their high paying job, well fuck kids, amirite!?!?


Look. There will always be people who focus on career over family. To suggest that access to Hugh paying jobs via equality and a reduced/eliminated pay gap leads women down a path of non-reproduction is woefully wrong. They just weren't going to be heavy participants anyway.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 09:02:04
Hood
Not having children is the best choice anyone aspiring to be in the middle-class can make.

This is particularly true for women who face the double jepardy of losing income to care for children, and losing seniority wage gain when they return to work.

This above and beyond the 300k it costs to see a child through from birth to university.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 09:21:04
http://mon...aising-a-child-2015/index.html
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Tue Mar 20 09:25:56

My great niece Wants to go all of the way. She is planning to go to Perdue for her Doctorate in Brain and Behavioral Sciences while still being in choir and orchestra.

She is graduating from high school a year early.

Sam Adams
Member
Tue Mar 20 09:40:54
"you get to choose between having children, or being in the middle-class economic segment. "

Wahahahahahaha.
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 09:44:29
jergul
I saw your post the first time. It is unrelated to my comment. Are your so lonely that you come here for your affirmation of existence?
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 10:44:45
Sammy
Its math, bro. Lose the income + gain the expense = fall out of the middle class.

Hood
You need help drawing the dotted lines? Colour me surprised.

Intelligence correlates to making better life choices would be the argument.

So, yah, intelligence correlates with success and good life outcomes.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Mar 20 10:54:06
"Lose the income + gain the expense = fall out of the middle class. "

Lol what sort of mindless pleb cant support a family in the middle class on one job? Seriously... it aint hard.
TJ
Member
Tue Mar 20 10:54:40
"Intelligence correlates to making better life choices would be the argument."

Think about what you are typing.

Drawing the dots.

Intelligence is tricky. :-)
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 15:03:17
"Intelligence correlates to making better life choices would be the argument."

I'd like to see the data behind this, and I'd like to know how you're defining intelligence.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 15:08:12
Hood
Yes, no doubt you would like those things.

Problem is, you don't really do good faith discussions, so I see not point in engaging unless I feel so inclined.

I do not currently feel so inclined.
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 15:44:40
"you don't really do good faith discussions"

This is pretty laughable. You really must be starved for attention.
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 15:47:50
By the way, even with your additional info, it is still completely unrelated to my point. Women who choose career over family were never going to be producing lots of offspring. There is no causation between intelligence and income and the correlation is weak and general. Nothing was ever being taken away from the gene pool through wage equality.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 16:47:52
Hood
That was never the argument.

Intelligent women choose to a greater degree to not have children in an economy that penalizes having them.

So, in order to decrease the wage-gap, it is best for women not to have kids (as having kids impacts negatively on their lifetime earnings and increases their lifetime costs).

Not "access to Hugh paying jobs via equality and a reduced/eliminated pay gap leads women down a path of non-reproduction is woefully wrong"

The path to more equal pay is non-reproduction.

So exactly the opposite argument of what you straw-manned it to be.
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 16:50:51
"That was never the argument."

That was dukhats argument. I responded to dukhat. Go look for your attention elsewhere, I am bored of your pointless jabber.
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 20 18:18:10
Yah, your life seems full of small challenges.

Anyway, you were wrong.
Dukhat
Member
Tue Mar 20 19:18:40
"To suggest that access to High paying jobs via equality and a reduced/eliminated pay gap leads women down a path of non-reproduction is woefully wrong. They just weren't going to be heavy participants anyway."

1) I don't think many women realize the tradeoff they are making.

http://www...rk-out/?utm_term=.1b6ee87df8ef

There's been a lot of hub-bub about freezing your eggs and starting a family when you're ready but a lot of these women did it and they had no idea it was so risky.

2) To have "success" in today's competitive market generally involves putting off having a family, especially after the way the great recession disrupted career planning for millenials.

Let's assume that the distribution of ability is the same among women as men. That means women will have work about the same level as the hardest-working men to compete.

The most successful men I know (that didn't have a silver spoon in their mouths) all worked incredibly long hours and either their spouse put up with them not being around or they didn't have good relationships when they were getting off the ground. Maybe half had a spouse willing to put up with that? And the other half delayed marriage.

I don’t think career women today can ever expect most men to put up with that kind of lifestyle even in America. For the most part, most men don’t value success in a woman as a trait that attracts them.

There is a tier of women below those women that I think is much more common. These are women mostly batting below their level (like female doctors who scored highly yet chose a less competitive field to support their surgeon husbands). All of these women are very capable but are pursuing careers below their level of ability. They balance life and career and life often beats out career.

If all men are striving their best and many if not most women are making tradeoffs that involve family; then gender equality must mean women giving up families more often than not.
hood
Member
Tue Mar 20 19:57:01
"Let's assume that the distribution of ability is the same among women as men. That means women will have work about the same level as the hardest-working men to compete."

But hardest working != intelligent. The crux of your argument is that successful people are intelligent. To the point that you have to make significant family sacrifice, you just cannot make that correlation.

And uh..

"There is a tier of women below those women that I think is much more common. These are women mostly batting below their level (like female doctors who scored highly yet chose a less competitive field to support their surgeon husbands). All of these women are very capable but are pursuing careers below their level of ability."

So you're saying that there's an entire tier of women who work less hard but are apparently at least as genetically qualified as those super hard workers, who are plenty successful and find time for kids? That kind of negates your entire point here.
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