Utopia Talk - Politics - Muted Western reaction to Putin victory

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Utopia Talk / Politics / Muted Western reaction to Putin victory

Paramount
Member Mon Mar 19 07:22:24
World leaders are congratulating Vladimir Putin on his election for a new six-year term as Russian president, but Western leaders have been slow to respond amid recent tensions.

Chinese President Xi Jinping said his country's partnership with Russia was at its "best level in history".

Japanese PM Shinzo Abe congratulated Mr Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel is expected to do so soon.

Mr Putin got more than 76% of the vote, official results show.

He said he was considering changes to his government, including the post of prime minister.

Former President Dmitry Medvedev has held the post since he changed places in 2012 with Mr Putin, who has ruled the country as either president or prime minister since 1999.

The main opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, was barred from the race.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43455950

Congrats to Putin. Has he received a Medal of Honor yet for destroying ISIS in Syria?

Russia has a long history of killing Islamic jihadists. America has a long history of arming and working together with Islamic jihadists.

yankeessuck123
Member Mon Mar 19 07:25:07
If we still agree that democracy matters, nations that support democracy should not be congratulating Putin for the farce he is calling a democratic election.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 08:28:23
ys123
What do you mean and compared to whom?

The last time the outcome was highly questionable in an election stealing sense was Yeltsin's victory over the communists in the late 90s (the communist party remains to this day the 2nd largest presidential contender).

Ultimately, disaster capitalism's structural reform is the basis for Putin's victories. Russians never want to do that again and fear change like the plague.

yankeessuck123
Member Mon Mar 19 10:26:54
It's not a question of the outcome, but that's the problem. There never was a question of the outcome, because it was never going to be a fair election.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 10:45:14
YS
Fair as say what chance did Bernie Sanders have of actually winning the election?

A contender was barred from running due to a criminal conviction he claims was politically motivated.

The media and State government does give the incumbent some advantage.

But ultimately the outcome was given because Russians fear change.

The grounds for that can be found in Russian-Western cooperation and the disasters that befell Russians because of it.

Not hard to see in retrospect. Deconstructing Russia's (and the rest of the USSRs) economic base did nothing for long terms western security.

Sam Adams
Member Mon Mar 19 10:54:45
Russians have become pariahs globally, mistrusted by everyone.

yankeessuck123
Member Mon Mar 19 11:09:19
Politically-motivated bans on leading opponents

Attacks on opposition media

Videos of ballot-stuffing

etc etc

This is not the same as elections in the US.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 11:34:28
YS
Thank God Russia does not have an electorate college. Imagine the hay you would make out of that.

Anyways, we can await the findings:

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/363766

I can pre-empt with tass.ru reporting that ballots from 5 stations have been declared invalid due to irregularities.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 11:41:02
http://www...ns/russia/375670?download=true

The text formats poorly and is long.

Rugian
Member Mon Mar 19 12:07:36

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 11:34:28
YS
Thank God Russia does not have an electorate college. Imagine the hay you would make out of that.

Federal systems of government tend to have federal apportionment procedures. As much flak as Russia gets around here, no one has ever called Russia undemocratic because Blagoveshchensk and Beloretsk aren't perfectly represented in the Duma in proportion to their populations.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 12:29:15
Ruggy
Because if Putin had been appointed by an electorate college from the Russian oblasts, ys would not have been outraged?

Rugian
Member Mon Mar 19 12:41:09
I don't think he'd be outraged over an electoral college picking him. I imagine he'd still have a problem with the politically-motivated bans on leading opponents and curbing protests though.

yankeessuck123
Member Mon Mar 19 15:34:54
The Electoral College is a bad system, but doesn't inherently prevent a fair election.

Putin puts on the window dressing of an election, but there is zero question as to the outcome. It is not a democratic election. Western leaders congratulating him on his success in this farce undermines democracy globally.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 16:09:30
Ruggy
He would be all "appointed by the Politbureau" or some such.

YS
You are going a bit overboard. The link I provided covered the issues.

Your problem would be more with Russian voter risk adversity than it would be with any inherent flaws in their democratic process.

It does not meet every standard, but it meets a lot of them. And notably has improved since the last presidential election.

yankeessuck123
Member Mon Mar 19 16:37:32
I know you've got a reputation as a Russian apologist, but damn dude. Alternative facts right here.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 17:00:59
http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/363766

Yah, me and the OSCE. In case you missed it. I have the same concerns the OSCE does. By definition in fact as I am using it authoratively.

The problem is that you guys are generally so far out to lunch.

Russia has done horrible things (most notably annexing Crimea), but some things are the result of voter preferances.

In this case, Russians vastly prefer Putin to any unknown or uncertain variable.

The reason for this rest in the country's recent history.

Rugian
Member Mon Mar 19 18:32:19
jergul,

I believe you're confusing form and execution.

On paper, Russia is actually quite democratic. Universal suffrage for all citizens above the age of 18, guarantees of freedom of ideas and speech, and multiparty elections held at regular intervals. If you wanted to insert a touch of federalism by adding in an electoral college, it wouldn't fundamentally change that picture.

On paper Russian democracy is dandy. It's all that underhanded stuff that goes on in its actual operation that is the problem.

You have argued that the election outcome was valid because it actually did reflect the popular will of the people. Fair enough. I'm sure Erdogan's majority is legitimate as well. It doesn't change the fact that democratic institutions in Russia are in poor shape.

jergul
large member Mon Mar 19 18:49:05
Ruggy
There is nothing in the OSCE press-release I disagree with.

Russia is a federal state. An electoral college there would be a disaster for democracy (Think Gore-Bush florida irregularities including the bios of the decision-makers. Multiply that by x number of provinces you have never heard of).

I am arguing that the election result is valid and the process as described by OSCE.

Putin's election is the result of recent history, not the result of processes described by OSCE.

There are lessons to be learned from that.

Sam Adams
Member Mon Mar 19 20:39:26
Lol jergul departed the fact train long ago. At least seb gets one or two right from time to time.

Forwyn
Member Mon Mar 19 20:45:03
"Russia has done horrible things (most notably annexing Crimea)"

Comparatively not that bad.

jergul
large member Tue Mar 20 05:27:56
Crimea and Donbas are the only things people still might be fighting about in 200 years.

The analogy is Golan Heights, Gaza, and sundry bits of annexed territory down there.

Sammy. Me and the OSCE you mean.

Get a grip.

Forwyn
Member Tue Mar 20 12:46:46
Illicit armament and support of Donbas is far worse than Crimea annexation.

re: Falkland Islands

Crimeans would rather be part of Russia. Corrupt Ukraine, suffering under the weight of a revolution, failed to hold it. Boohoo.

LazyCommunist
Member Tue Mar 20 16:15:53
Fucking traitor, can't he be at least a little bit grateful?

http://mobile.twitter.com/Snowden/status/975410951494172672

Edward Snowden
@Snowden
The ballot stuffing seen today in Moscow and elsewhere in the Russian election is an effort to steal the influence of 140+ million people. Demand justice; demand laws and courts that matter. Take your future back

http://mobile.twitter.com/Snowden/status/975416905975595008

Edward Snowden
@Snowden
Replying to @AzLakeHouse
My friends tell me it is dangerous to criticize the Russian government the same as I criticize my own. But each of us are given a limited number of days to make a difference. Life is a choice to live for something, or to die for nothing

jergul
large member Tue Mar 20 16:51:59
The ballots were invalidated at 7 stations due to stuffing and other irregularities. Citing provocation stuffing in some of the cases.

CCTV caught them. Which is controlled by the State same as other mechanisms.

Thinking Putin stole the election by ballot stuffing is ludicrous, not dangerous.

McKobb
Member Tue Mar 20 16:57:15
We should just kill him!

tumbleweed
the wanderer Tue Mar 20 18:43:22
Trump's written briefing for his call with Russia said "DO NOT CONGRATULATE" plus said to denounce the poisoning

what Trump did: congratulated Putin & didn't denounce poisoning

"An American president does not lead the Free World by congratulating dictators on winning sham elections. And by doing so with Vladimir Putin, President Trump insulted every Russian citizen who was denied the right to vote in a free and fair election"
~ angry dying old man (McCain)

tumbleweed
the wanderer Tue Mar 20 19:05:04
the news article for that^ for whatever it's worth

http://www...8-8ad6-fbc50284fce8_story.html

not surprising Trump wouldn't read anything

swordtail
Anarchist Prime Wed Mar 21 10:33:18
http://for...ulates-putin-for-election-win/

hood
Member Wed Mar 21 10:57:27
One doesn't need to stuff ballots when one kills any significant opposition and instills the fear of death in any would-be political opponents. I guess that's a "valid election" in the sense that it wasn't voting shenanigans that resulted in the outcome.

jergul
large member Wed Mar 21 11:02:51
Indeed, it was not voting shenanigans that resulted in the outcome.

show deleted posts

Paramount Member	Mon Mar 19 07:22:24 World leaders are congratulating Vladimir Putin on his election for a new six-year term as Russian president, but Western leaders have been slow to respond amid recent tensions. Chinese President Xi Jinping said his country's partnership with Russia was at its "best level in history". Japanese PM Shinzo Abe congratulated Mr Putin and German Chancellor Angela Merkel is expected to do so soon. Mr Putin got more than 76% of the vote, official results show. He said he was considering changes to his government, including the post of prime minister. Former President Dmitry Medvedev has held the post since he changed places in 2012 with Mr Putin, who has ruled the country as either president or prime minister since 1999. The main opposition leader, Alexei Navalny, was barred from the race. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43455950 Congrats to Putin. Has he received a Medal of Honor yet for destroying ISIS in Syria? Russia has a long history of killing Islamic jihadists. America has a long history of arming and working together with Islamic jihadists.
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Mar 19 07:25:07 If we still agree that democracy matters, nations that support democracy should not be congratulating Putin for the farce he is calling a democratic election.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 08:28:23 ys123 What do you mean and compared to whom? The last time the outcome was highly questionable in an election stealing sense was Yeltsin's victory over the communists in the late 90s (the communist party remains to this day the 2nd largest presidential contender). Ultimately, disaster capitalism's structural reform is the basis for Putin's victories. Russians never want to do that again and fear change like the plague.
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Mar 19 10:26:54 It's not a question of the outcome, but that's the problem. There never was a question of the outcome, because it was never going to be a fair election.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 10:45:14 YS Fair as say what chance did Bernie Sanders have of actually winning the election? A contender was barred from running due to a criminal conviction he claims was politically motivated. The media and State government does give the incumbent some advantage. But ultimately the outcome was given because Russians fear change. The grounds for that can be found in Russian-Western cooperation and the disasters that befell Russians because of it. Not hard to see in retrospect. Deconstructing Russia's (and the rest of the USSRs) economic base did nothing for long terms western security.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 19 10:54:45 Russians have become pariahs globally, mistrusted by everyone.
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Mar 19 11:09:19 Politically-motivated bans on leading opponents Attacks on opposition media Videos of ballot-stuffing etc etc This is not the same as elections in the US.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 11:34:28 YS Thank God Russia does not have an electorate college. Imagine the hay you would make out of that. Anyways, we can await the findings: http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/363766 I can pre-empt with tass.ru reporting that ballots from 5 stations have been declared invalid due to irregularities.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 11:41:02 http://www...ns/russia/375670?download=true The text formats poorly and is long.
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 19 12:07:36 jergul large member Mon Mar 19 11:34:28 YS Thank God Russia does not have an electorate college. Imagine the hay you would make out of that. Federal systems of government tend to have federal apportionment procedures. As much flak as Russia gets around here, no one has ever called Russia undemocratic because Blagoveshchensk and Beloretsk aren't perfectly represented in the Duma in proportion to their populations.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 12:29:15 Ruggy Because if Putin had been appointed by an electorate college from the Russian oblasts, ys would not have been outraged?
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 19 12:41:09 I don't think he'd be outraged over an electoral college picking him. I imagine he'd still have a problem with the politically-motivated bans on leading opponents and curbing protests though.
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Mar 19 15:34:54 The Electoral College is a bad system, but doesn't inherently prevent a fair election. Putin puts on the window dressing of an election, but there is zero question as to the outcome. It is not a democratic election. Western leaders congratulating him on his success in this farce undermines democracy globally.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 16:09:30 Ruggy He would be all "appointed by the Politbureau" or some such. YS You are going a bit overboard. The link I provided covered the issues. Your problem would be more with Russian voter risk adversity than it would be with any inherent flaws in their democratic process. It does not meet every standard, but it meets a lot of them. And notably has improved since the last presidential election.
yankeessuck123 Member	Mon Mar 19 16:37:32 I know you've got a reputation as a Russian apologist, but damn dude. Alternative facts right here.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 17:00:59 http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/363766 Yah, me and the OSCE. In case you missed it. I have the same concerns the OSCE does. By definition in fact as I am using it authoratively. The problem is that you guys are generally so far out to lunch. Russia has done horrible things (most notably annexing Crimea), but some things are the result of voter preferances. In this case, Russians vastly prefer Putin to any unknown or uncertain variable. The reason for this rest in the country's recent history.
Rugian Member	Mon Mar 19 18:32:19 jergul, I believe you're confusing form and execution. On paper, Russia is actually quite democratic. Universal suffrage for all citizens above the age of 18, guarantees of freedom of ideas and speech, and multiparty elections held at regular intervals. If you wanted to insert a touch of federalism by adding in an electoral college, it wouldn't fundamentally change that picture. On paper Russian democracy is dandy. It's all that underhanded stuff that goes on in its actual operation that is the problem. You have argued that the election outcome was valid because it actually did reflect the popular will of the people. Fair enough. I'm sure Erdogan's majority is legitimate as well. It doesn't change the fact that democratic institutions in Russia are in poor shape.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 19 18:49:05 Ruggy There is nothing in the OSCE press-release I disagree with. Russia is a federal state. An electoral college there would be a disaster for democracy (Think Gore-Bush florida irregularities including the bios of the decision-makers. Multiply that by x number of provinces you have never heard of). I am arguing that the election result is valid and the process as described by OSCE. Putin's election is the result of recent history, not the result of processes described by OSCE. There are lessons to be learned from that.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 19 20:39:26 Lol jergul departed the fact train long ago. At least seb gets one or two right from time to time.
Forwyn Member	Mon Mar 19 20:45:03 "Russia has done horrible things (most notably annexing Crimea)" Comparatively not that bad.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 20 05:27:56 Crimea and Donbas are the only things people still might be fighting about in 200 years. The analogy is Golan Heights, Gaza, and sundry bits of annexed territory down there. Sammy. Me and the OSCE you mean. Get a grip.
Forwyn Member	Tue Mar 20 12:46:46 Illicit armament and support of Donbas is far worse than Crimea annexation. re: Falkland Islands Crimeans would rather be part of Russia. Corrupt Ukraine, suffering under the weight of a revolution, failed to hold it. Boohoo.
LazyCommunist Member	Tue Mar 20 16:15:53 Fucking traitor, can't he be at least a little bit grateful? http://mobile.twitter.com/Snowden/status/975410951494172672 Edward Snowden @Snowden The ballot stuffing seen today in Moscow and elsewhere in the Russian election is an effort to steal the influence of 140+ million people. Demand justice; demand laws and courts that matter. Take your future back http://mobile.twitter.com/Snowden/status/975416905975595008 Edward Snowden @Snowden Replying to @AzLakeHouse My friends tell me it is dangerous to criticize the Russian government the same as I criticize my own. But each of us are given a limited number of days to make a difference. Life is a choice to live for something, or to die for nothing
jergul large member	Tue Mar 20 16:51:59 The ballots were invalidated at 7 stations due to stuffing and other irregularities. Citing provocation stuffing in some of the cases. CCTV caught them. Which is controlled by the State same as other mechanisms. Thinking Putin stole the election by ballot stuffing is ludicrous, not dangerous.
McKobb Member	Tue Mar 20 16:57:15 We should just kill him!
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Mar 20 18:43:22 Trump's written briefing for his call with Russia said "DO NOT CONGRATULATE" plus said to denounce the poisoning what Trump did: congratulated Putin & didn't denounce poisoning "An American president does not lead the Free World by congratulating dictators on winning sham elections. And by doing so with Vladimir Putin, President Trump insulted every Russian citizen who was denied the right to vote in a free and fair election" ~ angry dying old man (McCain)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Mar 20 19:05:04 the news article for that^ for whatever it's worth http://www...8-8ad6-fbc50284fce8_story.html not surprising Trump wouldn't read anything
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Wed Mar 21 10:33:18 http://for...ulates-putin-for-election-win/
hood Member	Wed Mar 21 10:57:27 One doesn't need to stuff ballots when one kills any significant opposition and instills the fear of death in any would-be political opponents. I guess that's a "valid election" in the sense that it wasn't voting shenanigans that resulted in the outcome.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 21 11:02:51 Indeed, it was not voting shenanigans that resulted in the outcome.
	show deleted posts

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