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Utopia Talk / Politics / Syria: Clusterfuck ..
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 18:24:19
Sky News cut off the former commander of British Armed Forces Jonathan Shaw over Syria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpdT79rm1ts
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Apr 13 19:57:04
Trump is to speak tonight on Syria... will require teleprompter discipline, otherwise will be a mix of him attacking Comey and the DoJ, and complimenting himself
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:02:54
it's on.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:03:06

He has authorized military strikes against.


The strikes are underway right now.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:10:28

He has authorized military strikes against.


The strikes are underway right now.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:12:48

Solid speech and no teleprompter.

tumbleweed is wrong again.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:14:00
hope there's nukes involved.
don't be wanting the pee pee tape coming out
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:14:25

The Pentagon will have a news briefing at 10 PM Eastern.

murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:18:19

Unfortunately the Russians didn't take my advice and set off a nuke. They instead chose to be exposed as impotent.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:18:48

I think he just killed two birds with one ston.

Syria and North Korea. Perhaps three or four birdies.


Sounds like the targets was the ability o\to make further gas attacks.

Sounds like we are hitting Damascus too.



swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:25:40
sounds like trump's got balls.
real leader like.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:31:42

I don't think there is much to deny that. The first instinct was to take out his entire air force, but Russia mixed some of their aircraft in with the Syrians.

So Trump switched gears and just went after the Syrians ability to make gas attacks.

Smart.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:33:45
genius even,one might say
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:34:30

B-1 Bombers were indeed used.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:37:17
hope the dems don't try to twist this into a war crime in order to get at trump
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:38:09

It would not surprise me if they do.

Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:42:11
Sounds like some chemical plant near damascus was hit. What if we accidentally gas half the city?

Also jergul why are there explosions in damascus. I thought you said the russian air defenses could stop anything?
murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:43:12

Putin can file this under unexpected consequences. He tried to help Trump, and now it's blowing up in his lap.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:44:00

Just think if Bush had used these tactics against Iraq.

How different the ME might be today.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:45:22
bush never played trump level chess
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 20:45:29

He tried to help Trump?

murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:45:43

What tactics?
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:48:56
http://www.rt.com/news/424090-syria-strikes-video-photo/
murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:50:22

BTW at this point Putin has no good options. He can sit quietly and take being humiliated in front of the whole world by his own monster, or he can try attacking US forces and make it worse.

His best option is to initiate a NATO style nuclear sharing program with Syria so Assad can defend himself.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:52:01
Danny Makki‏ @Dannymakkisyria · 4m4 minutes ago


 More

Syrian air defense forces reportedly downed 13 incoming missiles

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:52:50
Jim Sciutto‏Verified account @jimsciutto · 2m2 minutes ago


 More

Breaking: "What you’ve seen tonight is not the end of the US response..it’s not over” US official tells us. #Syria


swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:54:01
M. Bilal Kenasari‏Verified account @MBilalKenasari · 6m6 minutes ago


 More

There are reports that Russian Airforce jets took off from #Latakia just now.



swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 20:54:49
William Owen‏ @Bill_Owen · 2m2 minutes ago


 More

The people murdered with gas were Syrians, the people being murdered tonight are Syrians. This attack has nothing to do with dead Syrians.

Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 20:56:02
You can presumably see a sam trail going up in defense in one of those pics from russian propaganda. Russian and us weapons scientists will get a lot of interesting data at least.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 21:00:25

"Syrian air defense forces reportedly downed 13 incoming missiles"


I'm sure we fired well over 100 missiles.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 21:01:58
i should hope.
need to restock with new ones.
good for the economy
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Apr 13 21:03:02
"no teleprompter "

or 100% teleprompter read, if you want to be accurate

the fact you think the idiot is even capable of speaking like that is disturbing
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 21:03:16
Mark Ames‏Verified account @MarkAmesExiled · 21m21 minutes ago


 More

According to Russiagate
conspiracists, the Kremlin should’ve dropped the Trump pee tape today. And yet it was #Resistance hero Comey who revived the pee tape kompromat this week.

Jeepers, ya think we’ve been cheated again?

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 21:04:22

Mark Ames Retweeted


Micah Zenko‏ @MicahZenko · 9m9 minutes ago


 More

Kim Jong Un: "Now it totally makes sense to abandon this nuclear deterrent."

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 21:15:44
Leith Aboufadel‏Verified account @leithfadel · 6m6 minutes ago


 More

And just like that; it is quiet in Damascus now. Seems to be over.

murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 21:16:52

"Kim Jong Un: "Now it totally makes sense to abandon this nuclear deterrent."

Yep.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Apr 13 21:17:42

It doesn't take long if you know what you are doing.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Apr 13 21:27:32
"The President must get Congressional approval before attacking Syria-big mistake if he does not!"

http://www...tus/373581528405905408?lang=en
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 21:28:54
Sounds like a standard limitted cruise missile strike against some chem plants. Said its over for now.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Fri Apr 13 21:29:27
William Owen‏ @Bill_Owen · 30m30 minutes ago


 More

Clean shaven dictator or the orcs? Tonight America, France, and the UK chose the Orcs. #SyriaStrikes

Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 21:45:21
"Antonov added: "Insulting the President of Russia is unacceptable and inadmissible," "

Russia is a third rate banana republic. What a retard.
Dukhat
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:03:31
There's no real strategy behind the strikes. Another one-off where they can go, "you can rape and commit genocide on your own people, but don't do it with chemical weapons cause it makes us look bad ... mmm, k?"
murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:07:47

The strategy doesn't really matter. Putin has egg on his face at home and around the world. He can't take us on, so he's going to have to cause trouble elsewhere in order to not look like a total punk.

The question is where and what.

Forwyn
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:10:24
"commit genocide"

lol Cuckhat
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:19:13
Putin needed to be faceslapped after his many transgressions. That fucking retard is headed down a very dangerous road and is going to get himself and a fucking shitload of his people killed if he keeps it up.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:22:17
At least he didn't spend the last 5 years arming jihadis.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:39:41
No but he set off chemical weapons in london.
Aeros
Member
Fri Apr 13 22:51:10
lets take a moment here, set our differences aside and agree that no matter what happens Jergul is unequivocally btfo.
murder
Member
Fri Apr 13 23:49:49

That's not exactly news. Effective parity only exists when it comes to nukes.
Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 00:03:03
”Also jergul why are there explosions in damascus. I thought you said the russian air defenses could stop anything?”

Maybe Putin realized he had to help Trump at home a little bit, so that it looks like Trump is being tough on Russia. So Putin let some missiles hit some useless building that no one was really using at the moment anyway.
Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 02:14:14
lol, how many millions did all this cost and for what?

Let’s see... a quick calculation:

Time spent planning and shit = $12 millions
Food and phone bills for everyone involved = $15 millions
Getting the assets in place - logistics and fuel costs = $1billion
Maintenance and repair = $50 millions
100 missiles = $100 millions
Airplane fuel = $50 millions
Unexpected costs = $2 millions

Imagine what you could have done for this money intead.
* building that wall at the Mexican border
* feeding all the homeless people in America for the rest of their lives
* re-schooling for unemployed steel workers

etc
obaminated
Member
Sat Apr 14 03:37:49
When is the last time mountme ever sided with the west over any issue? Refuges raping swedish women? Nah, thats somehow to blame for america. Islamists in gaza attacking Israeli troops, nah, thats not their fault. Russia using chemical weapons in the UK? Nah thats the UK's fault.

Seriously dude, you are the definition of a cuck.
Dukhat
Member
Sat Apr 14 03:48:59
Obaminated revealing what a cartoony black-and-white world view he has.

Go back to memeing "reeeeeee!111" to everything. It would have more intellectual merit.
Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 04:30:51
”When is the last time mountme ever sided with the west over any issue? ”

If just want America to spend its tax dollars to improve the lives of Americans instead of using them to drop 100 missiles over some useless buildings in Syria of no avail.
Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 04:31:29
* I just
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 04:51:26
"Also jergul why are there explosions in damascus. I thought you said the russian air defenses could stop anything?"

Woot. Strawmen abound.

Air Defences are primarily access denial weapons.
Saturation attacks will always work
Syrian air defenses did most if not all of the actual shooting.

Its currently a win all around

Russia showcased technology in the hands of arabs and it worked!

Syria can nag for more air defences from Russia because it did not work perfectly.

It was done the night before international inspectors were to start working. We can only speculate into why it was so important to complicate their work. That speculation of course undermines narratives that the regime in fact did use chemical weapons.

Trump did something
Macron did something

Murder
That option is one of the stronger Russian deterrents. Simply placing Syria and Iran under the Russian nuclear umbrella is trivial in sense that nothing need be done beyond changing parameters for when nuclear weapons should be launched.
Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 04:59:00
Macron said he had evidence. Has France presented the ”evidence” to the world yet? Or was Macron only lying?
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 05:00:40
MOSCOW, April14. /TASS/. Russia can get back to discussing the issue of supplying S-300 missile systems to Syria in the wake of the US strikes on that country, Head of the Russian General Staff’s Main Operations Directorate Sergei Rudskoi told reporters at a press briefing in the Russian Defense Ministry on Saturday.

"A few years ago, taking into account a pressing request from some of our Western partners, we abandoned the supplies of the S-300 missile systems to Syria. Considering the latest developments, we deem it possible to get back to discussing this issue, not only in relation to Syria, but to other countries as well," he said.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/999755

==================

MOSCOW, April 14. /TASS/. The missile strike carried out by the US, Britain and France has been thwarted by Syria’s S-125, S-200, Buk and Kvadrat air defense systems manufactured in the USSR, the Russian Defense Ministry reported on Saturday.

Read also
Top brass: Missiles of US, allies steered clear of Russian air defenses

"Syrian air defense systems S-125, S-200, Buk and Kvadrat were involved in the operation to thwart the missile strike. These air defense systems were manufactured in the Soviet Union more than 30 years ago," the ministry said.

The US, the UK and France have fired more than 100 cruise and air-to-surface missiles at military and civilian targets in Syria, the Russian Defense Ministry reported.

"Over 100 cruise and air-to-surface missiles have been fired at military and civilian targets in Syria by US, British and French ships," the ministry said.


More:
http://tass.com/defense/999728

===============

I am not even sure what to say about that last one. It certainly is not the full story (the problem those systems have is with the search radars along with command integration. Actually targetting stuff after you know where they are is trivial).
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Apr 14 05:17:21

Syria violated the most basic International Law.

Russia vetoed a UN.

The three strongest countries in the West punished them.


It was the right thing to do.

jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 05:20:07
HR
Did it though? International inspectors were supposed to start looking into that today.

We may never know now for sure.
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 05:20:33
Aslo, rofl@UK being a strong country.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Apr 14 05:25:16

I'll take the word of The three best Intelligence services in the world over a two-bit dictator any day.

Paramount
Member
Sat Apr 14 05:27:02
"Did it though? International inspectors were supposed to start looking into that today."

Why? France said they have evidence. No one needs to go looking for it. They can just go to France instead, right?
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 05:32:09
HR
That is the problem. In a "he said, she said" scenario, who is credible? The one wanting investigators to check out the house? Or the one who burned down the house so investigators can't check it?
murder
Member
Sat Apr 14 05:53:10

"I'll take the word of The three best Intelligence services in the world over a two-bit dictator any day."

So the opposite of the election investigation?

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Apr 14 05:55:30

The area where the gas attack took place was not targeted by the allies.

It was scrubbed clean though.

The UN people will likely find nothing.


But, as I said, "I'll take the word of The three best Intelligence services in the world over a two-bit dictator any day."

Meanwhile, you people will accept any lie fed to you by the worlds bad actors, hook, line, and sinker.

jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 07:35:43
HR
We will see if the investigation can proceed. Up to the international inspectors. They are chemical warfare experts.

I am not accepting any lies from anyone. I am making all my judgements on available evidence.

If the evidence is not comprehensive, then attacks are not warranted (and still illegal in any event). After all, you would not want to be attacked by someone just because they said you deserved it, would you now (it seemed to upset you to no end when that happened on 9-11)?

You defer to authority. Despite your being old enough to know better.

But I did not expect anything different myself. Based on forum evidence ;).
Sam Adams
Member
Sat Apr 14 07:38:33
"In a "he said, she said" scenario, who is credible?"

Not russia
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 07:48:12
Sammy
Everybody lies at that level. That is why you need to look at evidence and motive.

For example, neither "the UK staged a false attack" or "Syria used chemical weapons" need to be true.

A 14-year old non UK person could have staged a false attack given the complete lack of analytic sophistication used to verify.

Syria was attacked primarily because Trump wanted to attack it.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Apr 14 08:02:02
Max Abrahms‏Verified account @MaxAbrahms · 3m3 minutes ago


 More

The French release their “proof” Assad authorized chemical attacks against Douma. It’s based on pictures and videos and activist testimony, the report says.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Apr 14 08:08:43
Professor Jeffrey D. Sachs on Syria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-vwKk4pADCw
Sam Adams
Member
Sat Apr 14 08:11:12
"Everybody lies at that level"

Not to the wild and hysterical level of the russians.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Apr 14 08:49:49
Andrew deGrandpre‏Verified account @adegrandpre · 17m17 minutes ago


 More

Important: LtGen McKenzie indicates last night's strike did NOT eradicate all of Assad's chemical weapons. "There's some left, but we dealt them a severe blow."

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Apr 14 08:56:29
William Owen‏ @Bill_Owen · 10m10 minutes ago


 More

This AM @bbcworldservice is talking about the "possibility that the Assad regime may use chemical weapons again" Right, just like every morning when I go out - I make sure that a "KICK ME!" sign is well affixed to my back. Makes sense right?

jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 11:01:02
Sammy: "Not to the wild and hysterical level of the russians."

You obviously have not been following Trump's tweets.

Remember that the lower the standard of evidence you accept, the less effort politicians need to put into making their narratives.

Essentially, you would encourage the deceitful and dishonourable behavior you seem to disapprove of.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Apr 14 15:57:34
"There's some left, but we dealt them a severe blow."

Lol. AKA "When we justify another strike in a few months, we can say that he used remaining stockpiles"
jergul
large member
Sat Apr 14 16:02:11
Forwyn
They are accusing him of using chlorine. You have a more comprehensive chemical warfare kit under your kitchen sink.

Europe alone produces 10 million tons of chlorine per year.

http://www...-2016-chlorine-production.aspx
Sam Adams
Member
Sat Apr 14 17:49:48
^dishonest russian propaganda
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Apr 14 18:13:32

Pence made a classic statement.

"Russia is on the wrong side of history."


I liked that.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Apr 14 18:17:47

Khalid bin Salman خالد بن سلمان‏Verified account @kbsalsaud


Follow Follow @kbsalsaud



 More

The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia supports the precision strikes conducted against the Iranian backed Assad regime for their use of internationally banned weapons. This swift response will hopefully serve as a future deterrent to Assad’s barbaric use of chemical
Weapons.



11:27 AM - 14 Apr 2018
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Apr 14 19:01:44

That's cool too.

Sam Adams
Member
Sat Apr 14 19:20:41
Saudia arabia will always do the opposite of iran.
jergul
large member
Sun Apr 15 02:28:50
Sammy
What a random thing to say. I am pointing out that removing Syria's capability to use chlorine would follow the same principle as removing its capability to use air.

Same would go for its chlorine production and storage facilities. There has to be sites. Society cannot survive without chlorine.

Chlorine gas was weaponized and used during wwi (through delivered in 1000nds of shells, and not in single barrels as the claims go).

HR
That is something really stupid for someone in the Trump administration to say. Particularly if a bible thumper who would be on the wrong side of history since Darwin.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 08:05:15

I disagree.

But since you think chemical warfare is OK I understand your position.

jergul
large member
Sun Apr 15 10:12:37
HR
I disagree

But since you think fucking children is OK I understand your position.

That was fun. See what I did there?
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sun Apr 15 10:45:04
The British Government’s Legal Justification for Bombing is Entirely False and Without Merit

http://www...irely-false-and-without-merit/
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Apr 15 11:20:29
some apt Trump tweets
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Da1PDTXU8AAMGqr.jpg
jergul
large member
Sun Apr 15 11:26:57
ST
The UN charter does allow for pre-emptive attack. For example to avoid an immediate humanitarian disaster.

However, the justification needs to be provided the UNSC for it to legitimize the intervention after the fact.

The attack cannot be justified in international law without it physically being written and given the UNSC for consideration.

An unjustified attack is by definition illegal.

I remember getting outraged by stuff like that in 2003. Now I just like to remind people that throwing out the rulebook is stupid as the rules have aided and abetted the west for a long time.
jergul
large member
Sun Apr 15 11:27:18
In sum: 12.5 by 2020.
obaminated
Member
Sun Apr 15 11:29:29
if trump attacked syria to distract from domestic issues then why did britain and france join in as well?

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sun Apr 15 11:35:15
"then why did britain and france join in as well?"

cause things are going swimmingly over there?
obaminated
Member
Sun Apr 15 11:37:32
No, because syria committed a war crime and every civilized human being understands they need a violent response to learn.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 12:09:27

jergul - That was fun. See what I did there?

What you did was prove that anyone might be on the wrong side of history depending on the issue.



swordtail - The British Government’s Legal Justification for Bombing is Entirely False and Without Merit


The UN Secretary-General came out in favor of England's contribution to the attack. He gave then high praise.




obaminated - No, because syria committed a war crime and every civilized human being understands they need a violent response to learn.


I agree.

Forwyn
Member
Sun Apr 15 12:10:25
The only problem with gassing jihadis is that it's too small of a scale.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 12:20:15

The only problem is, there is a fundamental law against using poison gas as a weapon that has been on the books for nearly.

Not even Tojo or Hitler used poison gas in combat.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 12:21:54
***-for nearly a century.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Apr 15 12:24:20
No one batted an eye when Saddam was gassing Iranian conscripts by the thousands in a war of aggression. In fact, we gave him geo-intel to do it better.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 16:53:36

Good Point.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sun Apr 15 17:50:26
An interim post on Syria ... (Editorial) by PL

http://tur...ther-mission-accomplished.html

jergul
large member
Mon Apr 16 03:02:17
HR
There is a fundamental law against attacking other countries. "Members shall refrain from the use of force, or the threat of force against other members" The UN charter.

Nevermind an attack based on social media imagery release by parties that had hopes of gaining big time from an attack.

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