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Utopia Talk / Politics / Hundreds March for More Child Gun Deaths
Dukhat
Member
Sat Apr 14 19:13:08
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gun-rights-advocates-rally-at-state-capitols-across-us/ar-AAvSpuq?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=spartanntp

DOVER, Del. — Gun rights supporters — many carrying rifles and ammunition — gathered at state capitols across the U.S. on Saturday to push back against efforts to pass stricter gun-control laws that they fear threaten their constitutional right to bear arms.

This story has been edited to update crowd in Atlanta to about 160, instead of 180.

************************************

I tried to go and see them where I was but by the time I got there, the police told me there moms had already picked them up. All that was left was a bunch of empty juice boxes littered on the streets.


obaminated
Member
Sat Apr 14 23:07:54
its saturday night, so cuckhat's wife is out on her date.
Dukhat
Member
Sun Apr 15 01:08:07
Yeah, I let her bring home ladies. Only rule is she has to share if she brings one home. Great way to end a night of playing video games and binging netflix.
obaminated
Member
Sun Apr 15 03:54:24
So you play video games while your wife goes on lesbian dates?
Aeros
Member
Sun Apr 15 12:34:04
People ask why the USA can't pass any gun legislation and this thread is part of the answer.

People who like guns think any effort to regulate them will result in the government taking away all the guns.

People who don't like guns think any disagreement with regulations on guns means those people want murdered school kids.
Dukhat
Member
Sun Apr 15 14:29:44
Good post Aeros only thing is, the last part is 100% true because these people refuse to propose any action that would actually reduce gun violence so they do in fact want kids to continue to be murdered.

A lot of these gun saftey proposals use to be proposed by Republicans before they got consumed by their own retardation.
Rugian
Member
Sun Apr 15 15:14:00
Parkland was a societal failure where the state was literally given a hundred signs that the shooter was a problem, but did nothing.

But sure, blame it on 2A or whatever.
Rugian
Member
Sun Apr 15 15:31:25
The amount of doublethink that must be required to sustain Dukhat's politics must be exhausting. As an SJW, he has to oppose law and order policies that significantly dropped violent crime rates in the 90s and 00s because muh racial disparities, but when it comes to a series of shocking but statistically insignificant mass shootings he's all of a sudden completely on board with shitting all over constitutional rights. Okay.


It's almost as if Dukhat has no independent political philosophy of his own, but he just parrots whatever he is told to believe by WaPo and CNN. Hmm.
delude
Member
Sun Apr 15 15:56:56
"given a hundred signs that the shooter was a problem, but did nothing. "

I'll bite....these "hundred signs" could you elaborate?
Dukhat
Member
Sun Apr 15 19:22:53
Rugian trying to use 1984 words but unfortunately rank ignorance of actual psychology makes his arguments nothing more than a cartoony diatribe ala Ted Kaczynski.

Dukhat
Member
Sun Apr 15 19:24:11
Hell even the more mental illness treatment would be something ... but 2nd Amendment nutters only vote for GOP candidates that slash public health funding so ... lol.

Both sides are not equal. I know your those Cambridge Analytica Facebook ads targeting you Aeros make it seem that way and you don't want to vote but that's exactly what they want.
Aeros
Member
Sun Apr 15 22:16:01
"The amount of doublethink that must be required to sustain Dukhat's politics must be exhausting."

No doublethinking is required. Look at rotterham with the child grooming gangs. A Labour MP was forced to resign for stating the truth, and another senior Labour minister told people to shut up and stop damaging diversity.

Inconvenient facts can just be ignored if they challenge the narrative.
hood
Member
Sun Apr 15 22:30:56
"People who like guns think any effort to regulate them will result in the government taking away all the guns."

These people are dumbasses, literally conjuring up falsehoods to support their stance.


"People who don't like guns think any disagreement with regulations on guns means those people want murdered school kids."

There is some amount of hyperbole here, however there is at least logical support for this statement. Tighter gun laws are likely to impact how easy one can access a gun. If a gun is not available, one cannot go shoot up a public space. People unwilling to negotiate whatsoever on gun laws necessarily prefer their current rights over the ability to limit shootings.


So on the scale of stupid, people arguing that all 2a supports want kids to get murdered are dumb, but at least neighboring on logic. 2a tards are completely fucking illogical.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Apr 15 22:45:42

"These people are dumbasses, literally conjuring up falsehoods to support their stance."


You mean like the falsehoods that were told by the peoples of Poland, The Czechs, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and, more recently Cuba? et al.

I bet those people told the same falsehoods.


You guys have a great week.

Dukhat
Member
Mon Apr 16 00:58:29
I don't give a shit about britain. Our first amendment is someone unique in the Western world. Maybe it is better. I don't know. They don't have rush limbauh or fox news there and the worse examples the cuckservatives point out are mostly retarded edgelords getting knocked down.

In my more idealistic youth, I might feel outrage and fight for freedom of speech. In my age, I could really give 2 shits about some retard who thinks he has a right to troll. Absolutions hold no purchase over me anymore. The people who hold some things have sacres (whether it be the 2nd amendment or a pro-life stance or free speech) all elected the most sacrosanct guy ever in Trump.

Lends credence to the idea that these die-hards are full of shit and we should do some of what the dirty hippies say and take steps to help our condition.
Aeros
Member
Mon Apr 16 01:11:22
We should be concerned with Britain. Our entire legal and governing system is based on British common law and constitutionality after all.

The reason the USA has been far more resistant to the cultural and legal rot plaguing Britain and Canada is because we actually bothered to codify what their learned elders simply assumed were a given. So now in the UK a man goes to jail for teaching a pug dog to do a nazi salute, the Scottish national police warns the citizenry not to protest this online in a way to cause offense, and there twitter is immediately assault by a storm of sieg heils, Hitler memes and racist ranting from Americans just to show off what they think of the actions of the old country.

This is why people are paranoid about the 2nd amendment. Because the 2nd is just as valid as the 1st. Or the 6th. And when student rioters in Berkeley wave banners saying "fuck free speech" and editorials are published saying "diversity of thought is code word for white supremacy" it is not so far fetched to assume dismantling the 2nd amendment is the first stage in trying to dismantle the others.
Seb
Member
Mon Apr 16 05:21:55
Aeros:

Your police kill people with total impunity, your political system is awash with bribery, and you've elected Donald Trump which I won't even go into.

Your voting system is completely compromised - you have no auditability of the integrity of individual votes, your voting machines are unsecure, and the jurisdictions are put together to minimise political change.

Political and legal rot is the defintion of the US system, where rights and laws are gamed and outcomes and principles shunned.

The easiest way to create a second class citizenry is to simply emphasises which rights you care about. 1st and 2nd good, freedom of association though? not so much if you have the wrong skin colour.
hood
Member
Mon Apr 16 08:02:24
"This is why people are paranoid about the 2nd amendment. Because the 2nd is just as valid as the 1st. Or the 6th. And when student rioters in Berkeley wave banners saying "fuck free speech" and editorials are published saying "diversity of thought is code word for white supremacy" it is not so far fetched to assume dismantling the 2nd amendment is the first stage in trying to dismantle the others."

Paranoid bullshit. These fuckstains don't even give an actual shit when actual rights are thoroughly assaulted, per SESTA recently passing to little if any reaction. An actual assault on free speech - where we're any of these slippery slope penis puffers? Nowhere to be fucking found? Oh, ok. That wasn't totally predictable at all. So maybe via observed action we can identify that the radically stubborn opposition to gun legislation isn't so much a slippery slope opposition as it is just plain old opposition to gun law changes? Like, you know, exactly what people have been saying?


Sorry, but your polysci pop politics analysis works in the context of the classroom. It does not work with real people, as evidenced by pretty simple observation of reality.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Apr 16 08:53:32

deluded - We should be concerned with Britain. Our entire legal and governing system is based on British common law and constitutionality after all.


Not our entire system.

President James Madison had an encyclopedic knowledge of the different models of government going back to early Rome and Greece.

I read somewhere that he is considered The Father of The Constitution.


Yes, a great deal of our Constitution comes from British Common Law, but some of it came from other forms of governance.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Apr 16 09:01:38

"Hundreds March for More Child Gun Deaths"


Are They Pro or Con?





Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 09:36:23

"Your police kill people with total impunity"

Police are supposed to shoot criminals. Thats there fucking job.
Seb
Member
Mon Apr 16 09:40:14
Sam:

Police get to be judge, jury and executioner.

Exactly the kind of rot I'm talking about. Complete violation of judicial independence.

Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 10:05:20
If the criminal is avoiding arrest or causing an active threat, by all means use deadly force.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 10:06:37
That is how you deal with scum. Shoot em and be done with it. The coddling of criminals has gone too far.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 10:11:59
In the uk, and in much of the US, violent criminals and repeat offenders are give slaps on the wrist and released back into the world again and again and again. At least in the US we shoot some of them and end the cycle of liberal appeasement. Most honorable and law abiding citizens are tired of it and would rather see these scum shot outright given the softness of the courts these days.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Apr 16 10:36:27

Sam, we should put some politicians in jail.

If we don't make the scum pay they will not stop.

It appears there is enough evidence to put the Clintons in prison. Especially Hillary.


There are a lot of other bad actors that should be in jail too. They will not stop unless they see what happens when they get caught.



You know that all of the FBI agents that have been caught but instead of going to jail they are transferred to a different job.

They still have the clearance to get information on anyone they please.

Seb
Member
Mon Apr 16 12:00:57
Sam:

Arbitrary arrest powers plus lethal force. Tool of a dictator.

"He resisted arrest" with no consequences if the police had no reasonable grounds to arrest.

Look at that Starbucks incident.

Your only ok with this because they aren't using these powers on you. Yet.

obaminated
Member
Mon Apr 16 12:03:26
Seb, explain what you believe happened at that "starbucks incident"
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 12:17:11
Lol seb recycling used wiberal propaganda again. The store decided a couple people didnt belong, refused to leave, and called the police. The police briefly arrested them for tresspassing since they refused to leave. Seems fair. But now the "waaaaaa waycism" croud has arrived to talk shit and cause trouble, and it has become a huge thing and the whiners everywhere are whining.

Meanwhile if i typed the above in a gestapo shithole like england, i might be arrested for speaking. And seb is whining about our supposed police overreach?
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Mon Apr 16 12:49:00

Where the two guys made their mistake was asking if they could use the facilities.

What you do is just walk in and then proceed to the toilette without asking.



Seb
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:01:53
Sam:

I've seen the video. White patrons pointed out they had been there two hours without buying.

Blatantly against US law to refuse to provide custom on basis of skin colour.

Starbucks itself have come out against their own store manager.

So yeah, arrest for trespass seems a massive overreach here and a classic example of why permitting police to shoot anyone for arrest is a license for authoritarian police state.

Forwyn
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:20:00
"Blatantly against US law to refuse to provide custom on basis of skin colour."

As they had not made themselves customers, the business is not obliged to allow them to continue loitering.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:25:06
Not to mention starbucks is not the police. Seb, while railing against supposed police brutality, is instead talking about the potential wrongdoing of.... not police.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:26:47
Police get a call about loiterers who refuse to leave, ask them to leave, get refused, and detain them for a few hours before letting them off with no charges.

Certainly worse cases to point out than this.
Aeros
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:27:58
Loitering is against the law in America. They were told to buy something or gtfo. They refused to gtfo so the store said they will call the cops. They still refused to leave. Cops show up. Tell them to gtfo and save them the paperwork. And yet STILL they refused to gtfo. So they are frog marched out, and written a fine for tresspassing.

This is apparently a grievous sin against social justice in 2018. Watching the whiners virtue signal has been apalling. I feel bad for the employees losing their jobs because a bunch of vagrants couldnt follow simple instructions.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:28:37
"Starbucks itself have come out against their own store manager. "

Of course they did. With you and all the other whiners whining and chanting "facts be damned", that dude never had a chance. Especially if straight, white, and or male.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:33:17
"Its ok for an african or muslim to stab a white dude, but if a white dude tells an african to leave a starbucks, its the end of the fucking work"

-seb
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:36:20
World
Dukhat
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:41:49
Ah yes, more gaslighting over the Starbucks incident which literally has nothing to do with the OP.

Cuckservatives are so senselessly reactionary.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:42:12
Seb egged you and you swallowed it whole like Donald Trump's tiny flaccid cock.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:44:03
Also happen to agree that this is a case of black people using race as an excuse for trespassing. These dumbfuck black guys caused trouble when 99.99% of people just buy a cheap-ass $2 coffee instead of causing trouble.

The black lives matter movement is full of retards.

That being said; has nothing to do with the 2nd amendment so thanks for nothing Seb.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Apr 16 15:49:57
Lol even duckhat thinks seb is dumb.
Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 02:22:52
Forwyn:
They said they were waiting for their friend to order, and indeed their friend turned up as they were arrested.

You can see in the video, multiple white customers pointing out they had been doing the same for longer.

The motivation of the manager was clearly discriminatory.

Sam:
I'm saying the police arrest is arguably wrongful if the Starbucks Managers demand for them to leave is itself ilegal.

This is the fundamental point about use of disproportionate force "to arrest". If there is no accountability, then unchecked arrest powers coupled with a blanket presumption that lethal force can be used to secure arrest (with no other elements considered) provides blanket immunity to police to kill just about anyone they want to.

Aeros:

It's a grievous sin if you selectively enforce such rules only against black people when there are white people in the store who have been doing the same for longer.

Seriously, who hasn't waited for friends in a bar or coffee shop before ordering?

I've done it myself on many occasions in NY.


Dukhat:

Nah, I had a point. If you can get arrested for waiting for a friend in Starbucks withput ordering, while a number of white people in the same goddamn store have been doing the exact same for longer; you can't turn around and say "oh, it's fine when police shoot someone for resisting arrest- our laws are fine".

The second ammendment has not protected the US from becoming a police state, as often cited as a benefit. Instead it's one of the driving forces that have enabled the US degeneration into a police state. It's normalised gun violence and turned every police encounter into a high stakes engagement with a high probability of split second use of lethal force being deployed, which legitimises police pre-emption and thus abuse of their powers. The reason they can kill with impunity is because of the general understanding and license given to them by the public that there's a good chance if they soft peddle they could be shot by a bad guy.

The social consequences of this are born by the poor and minorities, insulating the likes of Sam Adams from the disastrous consequences of their policy.

I don't troll. I always have a point.
delude
Member
Tue Apr 17 06:20:24
Or Seb, that the manager was possibly following a policy that was implemented for that area of Starbucks. Which is normal for various business chains, one may not be the same as for other areas.

So, even though it was a ridiculous situation. The manager wasn't entirely in the wrong. Nor were the police that were doing their job.

Though now the company has stated there isn't a universal policy related to such matters. And they also agree that what transpired was wrong.

But it does not necessarily mean she did it as a complete racially biased motivator.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Tue Apr 17 07:01:54

" that the manager was possibly following a policy that was implemented for that area of Starbucks."

"The manager wasn't entirely in the wrong. Nor were the police that were doing their job."




You might want to correct yourself before someone not as nice as I am corrects you.



Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 09:32:08
delude:

Given on the video a number of the people in that starbucks who were white were stridently pointing out that they had:
a. used the toilets without having to buy anything

b. had been in the store for two hours wihtout having ever bought anything

then as best you can say they are selectively enforcing that policy.

I can safely say that you would not be arrested in the UK for this (there are other mechanisms to move people on).

However, I feel you are missing the point somewhat - I can point to numerous other examples of bullshit arrests.

The combination of broad powers to arrest with little accountability or scrutiny - coupled with the wide license the public grants to police to use lethal force due to the pervasive threat of guns - the net effect is the police in the US can wind up killing people with little accountability for fairly trivial matters, matters where actually the police probably shouldn't have been involved at all.

Aeros assertion that the second ammendment needs to be prevented from rot seems precisely back to front.

It is driving the rot: whether it be the NRA's political lobbying and their frankly chilling propaganda videos that are reminiscent of the work of Goebels, or whether it is the way it has in effect led to a situation where police are granted such wide discretion in use of lethal force as to render the idea of civil disobedience unthinkable (particularly for minorities).

Throw into the mix the disparity in how enforcement of crimes and protection of these rights to different demographic groups (both income based and race/ethnic) and what you have is about as far from the intent of a liberal democratic republic as you can get.

A couple of black people will be arrested for waiting for a friend in starbucks where white people doing the exact same thing in the same store and the same time are permitted.

Meanwhile, you have actual armed nazi's openly marching around the country.

And the issue here is there is insufficient freedom of speech and association?

Hmm.





Sam Adams
Member
Tue Apr 17 09:58:11
"blanket immunity to police to kill just about anyone they want to. "

Rofl. You need to stop reading huffpost and other extremist retard positions.

"where police are granted such wide discretion in use of lethal force as to render the idea of civil disobedience unthinkable"

That is the very definition of police. To use force in support of the will of society. Society doesnt like criminals. Hence society supports the shooting of criminals. Especially now when the courts are weak and innefective.
TJ
Member
Tue Apr 17 09:58:32
Seb:

Police state, frown.
2 Amendment enabling US degeneration, frown. That is the type of embellishment that perpetuates violence.

Hell, we can't even regulate our border and people want guns regulated by what they believe to already be a police state, snicker. The world is in a sad and unnecessary condition.


The blame should go to corruption in government and not the police officers.

You and I will need to agree to disagree because you seem to be exploiting myth to defend your position.

Why do you think the two in Starbucks weren't shot? It doesn't matter who was right or wrong, but the two men that were removed didn't resist Police.

I suggest reading Secret Empires by Peter Schweizer. He exposes the republican and democrat corruption in American governance.

http://www...police_racist-transcript_0.pdf
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Apr 17 10:03:08
Of the 40 or so cases that seb and other leftists whine about. About 38 of those were legitimate shootings of scum and criminals. About 2 were actual police brutality.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Apr 17 11:58:46
20min != 2 hours

2 hours is a long fucking time to loiter. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 12:26:21
"
That is the very definition of police. To use force in support of the will of society. Society doesnt like criminals. Hence society supports the shooting of criminals. Especially now when the courts are weak and innefective."

It was the will of the German people to kill all Jews in the 40s.

In liberal democracies, people are innocent until proven guilty. The role of police is to use force to prevent crimes and apprehend suspects. Determining people to be criminals explicitly is the power of the judiciary and the courts.

You have created such sweeping criminalization, and such paranoia between police and the citizenry, that people are routinely killed for things that would never cary a death penalty. You can be shot for evading arrest when suspected of robbing a shop. You would never be shot for evading arrest for a white collar crime. If people were though, it would be treated as an outrage.

TJ:
The way your police behave would not be tolerated in the UK or many European countries.

A friend of mine had a gun pointed at him in the states because he got out of a vehicle and reached for his wallet when the police pulled him over.

That's normal behaviour in the rest of the developed world. In the US it's considered a threat.

In the UK and most of Europe, every discharge of a police firearm has to be accounted for - as in why and how the police deploy lethal force. In the US there are numerous cases where the police kill people in ways that would result in a major review but are handled as minor administrative matters.

You have a police state. You may be insulated from it. Professional class ethnic Han Chinese probably experience China to be much more liberal than it is in totality too. That's kinda the point of a police state though. The curtailment of some people's rights and liberties is normally to preserve someone else's sense of security.

Sam Adams
Member
Tue Apr 17 13:18:21
"You can be shot for evading arrest when suspected of robbing a shop. "

Of course you can, and that is reasonable. Dont coddle criminals.

Dont want to be shot by cops? Dont commit crime. It aint hard.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Apr 17 13:40:28
"robbing"

Yeah, threat or use of violence, typically with a weapon. You might have a point if you said burglarizing, or shoplifting.
obaminated
Member
Tue Apr 17 13:42:48
Its intetesting that seb sees racism when there is no evidence of racial bias at all. The blacks werent kicked out for being black. They were kicked out because they spent 2 hours not buying anything at a store where you are supposed to buy if you want to stay. If they had been asked to leave after 5 min, youd have a point for racism, but 2 hours? Boy, those whites are pretty patient racists.
patom
Member
Tue Apr 17 13:43:52
The 2 in starbucks were in a restaurant and not buying any of their product. The management, rightfully, asked them to leave. They refused, which left the manager one of two options.
1- fold to their wishes and let his shop be taken over by people who just want a hang out.
2- Ask for police assistance to get the to leave.

The Police came and asked them to leave which they refused to do. This left the police with one of two options.
1- Let them sit and take up space for which paying customers should have priority for or
2- Arrest them and get them out of there.

IMO the manager and the Police did the right thing.

The biggest problem that seems central in many of the police shootings is the people being confronted by the police. They either refuse to listen to what the cops are telling them to do or want to negotiate every step of the way in a confrontational manner.

I can guarantee if I were told by a cop to put my hands on the roof or on the steering wheel, I would do exactly that. There will be plenty of time later on to plead your case or discuss the situation with the cop or his supervisors. If arrested you will get that chance upon your arraignment in front of a Judge. No sense getting shot over something that is so minor.
Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 13:54:26
Forwyn:

The key word is suspicion. To be shot while apprehended in the act. But to shoot someone away from the scene for attempting to evade is not ok.

Obaminated:

They were not there for two hours, and there are white people on the tape saying they hadn't orders but been there for two hours. When you chose to selectively apply rules yes, it looks like bias.

Patom:

I've addressed this point repeatedly. Suggest you read my posts above. You are omitting facts. And a policy applied only to non whites even if framed universally is still discriminatory.
Starbucks has said this violates their policy in any case (And their brand emphasises just this kind of behaviour).

The general impression is this manager moved them on because they were the wrong sort of clientele, not because their behaviour.

Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 14:01:07
Patom:


"I can guarantee if I were told by a cop to put my hands on the roof or on the steering wheel, I would do exactly that. There will be plenty of time later on to plead your case or discuss the situation with the cop or his supervisors. If arrested you will get that chance upon your arraignment in front of a Judge. No sense getting shot over something that is so minor. "

*sigh*. Exactly my point. This is the attributes of a police state. Comply fully with the whims of an unaccountable official and try and sort it out on your own time and pocket in a Kafkaesque process (tough luck if you don't have time and money) or risk arbitrary violence up to lethal force.

This is considered unacceptable in the UK. In the US you have internalized it that it's mere common sense.

And it's pervasive guns that have normalised this as a reasonable way to relate to officialdom.

No wonder you think things like cctv are the end of the world. If our police had the culture of impunity, violence and unaccountability yours do, I'd be worried.

But that confuses the issue. It's the lack of proportionality and accountability - not specific capabilities - that is the issue here.

And guns are at the root of it.
TJ
Member
Tue Apr 17 14:36:17
Seb:

I'm not insulated from anything, but you are insulated from everything except for what you read or are told since you live in the UK. Have you had an extended stay in the US? It doesn't appear as though you have, so reasonable to ask.

I've spent a good amount of time in every State of the Union in my nearly 70 years and I rose out of dirt poor poverty. It seems obvious I would know more about the US than you with your lack of experience in Country.

I won't provide credence to hearsay from your friend. I don't doubt it as being true, but happened for good reason. Police don't have ESP and they want to go home at the end of their shift the same as everyone else who is law abiding. Does that mean that all officers are corrupt? Not by a long shot. Since he told you the story I'll assume he lived through the experience and wasn't shot or abused. Stories grow like a virus and the purpose of this particular article.

There sure are a lot of people trying to become citizens in a Country that you consider a police state. Can you explain why that is the case? I'm humored with your consideration that the US is a police state.

What makes you think facts aren't eliminated from the article? General impression was the purpose of the article. I suggest you consider that when reading news articles.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Apr 17 15:12:01
Seb defending criminals and blaming the police... yup.
Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 17:29:52
I went through a period of frequent visits, and spent a couple of months.
I have friends who live there.

I don't think credence is the right word if you aren't disputing it being true. Perhaps relevance?

Of course it happened for a reason. The reason was simple - He got put of the vehicle which put him in a position where he could have more scope to be a threat than if he remained in the vehicle, and put his hand somewhere it could be going for a ranged weapon. And this therefore itself is considered a threat requiring the police officer to draw a weapon.

An entirely innocupus gesture in most of the developef world. But in the US an unacceptable level of risk to police officers. The second amendment meaning police react as if everyone is a threat, but also not wanting that risk to fall on the police but equally not wanting to grapple with the trade off here.

The net effect: for the illusory security pervasive gun ownership you accept a degree of power, force and reduced accountability and risk to the general population that no other developed society in the free world considers remotely acceptable.

None of this is about police corruption (your politics is rotten though). It's about the power and leeway and curtailment of liberty you as a society have to accept as a direct consequence of gun culture.

Having a policeman threaten deadly force on you at a routine stop with no reason other than "he *might* be armed and hes not in a submisive stance so I am entitled to draw a weapon" would be considered an inexplicable abuse in and of itself in my country.

Like I said, you consider it normal. The price of doing business in a society where lethal weapons are the norm.

Much as in other countries it's normal for the police to demand your papers, or officials to demand a bribe (their salaries being too low and cost of qualifications too high) - systemic effects rather than bad people.

"There sure are a lot of people trying to become citizens in a Country that you consider a police state."

The promise of better economic standards at a price of submitting to intrusive levels of authority is the norm, not the exception.

Middle class Chinese know the price of prosperity is not having civil & political rights and not challenging authority. In the US you don't have to give political rights up (not explicitly, though gerimandering and various vote suppressing policies might disenfranchise you). But you do have to accept a degree of fear and subservience to officialdom.

And I think assuide from learning a few rules, accepting the idea you dont question the demands of police officers, if you are white and well off you can live in the US largely untroubled.

But hey, that's true in China too.

I'm not going to die in a ditch to persuade you, but the things US police get away with and the things you and other Americans on this board think are normal generally are considered gross abuses of power in other western countries.

So, great that on paper you have these rights. But in practice they don't seem to count for much if the front-face of state authority can literally get away with murder.
Seb
Member
Tue Apr 17 17:32:18
P.s. lots of immigration to Saudi Arabia too. Many migrant workers. Does that prove it a democracy?
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Apr 17 18:10:11
"that no other developed society in the free world considers remotely acceptable. "

Yet the murder rate in london is much higher than parts of the us that have far more guns. But but but guns!! Lol@seb.
TJ
Member
Tue Apr 17 20:35:40
I don't provide credence nor consider it reverent (the mental attitude that something is believable and should be accepted as true). I considered it as gossip hearsay. As I insinuated, the behavior is plausible and acceptable considering facts. You simply don't agree with the facts within the US law and it wasn't expected from the beginning. It wasn't my choice to be offensive since you considered him a friend.

You failed to mention why he was stopped (terming it as routine) and you seem to accept that being sufficient in support of your position. Why was he stopped and what was the result of the encounter? Was he released with a ticket, no ticket, or handcuffed and hauled off to jail? Then you state that him being a threat is unacceptable in European Countries. He wasn't in a European Country.

You are right. I don't consider it overly intrusive.

I would be a fool to deny that legal weaponry wasn't part of the reasoning, as well as the possession of illegal weapons. Yes, I'm more than willing to get stopped by police for breaking a traffic law and wait for instructional requests for the privilege of self protection as well as lawful protection.

You know the old saying: When in Rome do as the Romans do. Do you wish the entire world become one State with equal laws? I don't...

Anything additional and you'll be wasting your time.

People find all types of laws to be intrusive. I find certain Uk laws to be intrusive and authoritarian. I prefer the laws in my Country at the present, but there will always exist a need for improvement and that is subjective. We could play the word game forever, but that isn't my choice.

I'll now stick to agree to disagree as the end of our exchange was obvious from previous experience. It is a waste of valuable time to continue so there is no need for you to waste your time either.
TJ
Member
Tue Apr 17 20:38:05
reverent=relevant
Seb
Member
Wed Apr 18 06:39:22
Sam:

For the first time in decades London has had for two months a murder rate comparable to NYC (which has fairly strict gun laws by US standards). Which is one of the safer US cities. And the additional deaths are less than a single US school shooting. Of which there has been one incident in the UK.

The data does not support your case at all.
Seb
Member
Wed Apr 18 06:47:28
TJ:

I don't recall. I imagine speeding.

The point isn't that one should break laws in the US. Or that US cops break US Laws. Rather it is the balance of the power and discretion to use force against citizens.

You guys are way out there compared to the rest of the free world.

So for all the "we shouldn't fear govt govt should fear us" rhetoric of the armed citizenry, the effect is the opposite.

Sam Adams
Member
Wed Apr 18 09:15:21
"Of which there has been one incident in the UK. "

But so many mass stabbings, drivings, and bombings. Usually comitted by your protected class too. But guns are the problem. Idiot.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Apr 18 09:18:17
Why does Switzerland have so many high powered guns yet such a low murder rate seb?

Why are gun laws in us uncorrelated with crime rates? Why is boise (no crime lots of guns) different from chicago (massive crime few guns).

Lol@dumbseb
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