Utopia Talk / Politics / Term for Rugian/Forwyn/Sam

Dukhat Member	Tue Apr 24 18:05:56 Incel. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-43881931 Toronto van attack: What is an 'incel'? Alek Minassian, 25, appeared in court on Tuesday, a day after a rental van struck pedestrians in the city, killing 10 and injuring 15. Facebook confirmed to the BBC that Minassian was the author of a post which read in part: "The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!" The post also contained a reference to the message board 4chan. "Incel" is short for "involuntarily celibate" and in particular refers to online groups of men who feel that they can't enter into sexual relationships. The attitudes of men who visit the boards vary widely, but online they frequently vent anger against sexually prolific men ("Chads") and women ("Stacys"). More generally, incel forums often include rants aimed at feminism and women. In November, Reddit banned a section or subreddit of its site devoted to incels for hosting violent content. On Tuesday, another subreddit dedicated to incels, r/Malecel, was banned. However, other similar boards remain active on Reddit, and many other sites play host to incel discussions. ****************************************** Fuck. Makes so much sense.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 24 18:13:23 ^tried to use counterstrike as a source in a debate about guns. Ultimate incel
Seb Member	Tue Apr 24 18:16:52 Who is Eliot Roger? Sam, can you explain?
TJ Member	Tue Apr 24 18:20:49 http://www...8-elliot-rodger-manifesto.html
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 24 18:25:10 Who is Eliot Roger? A former up poster named poison? Lulz
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 09:13:02 I read about the 'incel' today, omg how did we get to this point? The most vomitous piece of info that I read was the warning that I should not confuse incels with Mens Rights Activists. You see , Mens Right Activists believe that men are oppressed, while incels just dont get laid so they hate everyone, oppression or not. Basically, you read about men who feel oppressed and think that you will never be able to find bigger losers. But then incels come along
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 09:31:11 damn, that terrorist resided in the same town I live, Richmond Hill
hood Member	Wed Apr 25 09:32:53 Well that wasn't smart. Now renzo is going to dox you.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 09:49:56 Why are people acting like this is a new phenomenon. Its been known for thousands of years having a large population of aimless and unmarried young men is a recipe for violence. FFS, look at the middle east right now.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:04:01 I am acting like this, (I assume by acting you mean typing words in UP) because I could not fathom the existence of such losers, specifically in where I live, and the danger to society that these losers apparently bring. So, I expressed my feelings. It wasn't enough to worry about muslim and nazi radicals, now this comes along
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 10:11:45 "More generally, incel forums often include rants aimed at feminism and women. " I forgot to add Nimatzo to the Incel list.
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 10:14:16 @CR - I think the issue is that society has always had malcontents. But with social media, more and more of these malcontents have a forum with which to spread and reinforce a dangerously helpless worldview where they are victimized. Then they become the same thing as Islamists and believe only extreme violence will help their situation. What makes them sadder than Islamists is that they actually live in a land of opportunity and would be better off getting a gym membership and some dental work. You hear me Rugian? I believe in you. Go lift brah.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 10:14:21 ITT: a bunch of noobs who clearly don't internet enough. What's next grandpops, you gonna post a thread about this hip new "meme" thing?
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 10:20:36 I admit I never heard of incel before. Being proud of that knowledge doesn't make you modern. It just points to you being a sad, sad man.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 10:22:23 Waaaaaaaah knowing things waaaaaaah
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 10:26:17 Since we're apparently going over the MRA's greatest hits from prior years, allow me to educate you on why it's masculine to give up masturbating. #NoWanks http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=21jA4k3rc0E
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:28:21 You were aware of oncel before this, rugian? Honestly
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:28:40 incel
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:30:15 I have always considered myself on top of things, news-wise at least. But holy shit, I am lost in all the trash online
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 10:30:27 " It wasn't enough to worry about muslim and nazi radicals, now this comes along" Its going to get worse you know. People have been warning there is a brewing psychological and social crisis among Western Men for at least two decades now, and we are starting to see the chickens come home to roost. Its an unfathomable experience for many, but for most of us born in the early 80's we managed to just miss the boat on the breakdown of western social structures, to be replaced by what can only be described as a revolutionary experiment in forced equality of outcome among the genders and female sexual primacy/control not only in who they get to choose as partners, but in permitting them to engage in non-permanent sexual activities (i.e, sex without concern for children resulting) Before this social change, this was something only men could engage in, and they were socialized to NOT engage in it.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 10:31:03 CR, r/incels got banned last year, that's how out of date this is. Was legit news when that happened too. http://mob...logy/incels-reddit-banned.html You don't exactly have to lurk on the dark web to keep relatively up to date with internet jargon.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:33:58 "r/incels " I have to admit that I only recently found out what this means. I know that rddit is popular but for whatever reason I never used it
Allahuakbar Member	Wed Apr 25 10:35:26 This is what happens when women wear no veil an make young men crazy.
hood Member	Wed Apr 25 10:37:35 Everything about Reddit is awful. And I'm not even talking about the people. The website is just horrendous all the way through. It's a good pop culture thing to skip.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 10:38:14 As a forum it's complete garbage. Posts that are upvoted go straight to the top of the page, while those with enough downvoted are hidden altogether; that plus heavy mod abuse makes 99% of subreddits little more than a gigantic circlejerk. That doesn't change the website's popularity though.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 10:38:22 The rising anger among young men from what I have observed is coming from two differing but related social pressures. Mainly, their innate identities as "men" are being repressed by a public education institution designed by women for the education of women, that views traditional male behaviors like physical confrontation, competition, and so on as undesirable and needing to be regulated, or eradicated. Couple this with a culture that continues to mandate Men conform to pre-sexual revolution norms of traditional monogamy, having careers before having children and wives etc. At the same time though society is encouraging women to engage to the exact opposite of sexual behavior it is encouraging its men to engage in. This means that men raised in the traditional sexual norm will come to view women raised the post-revolution sexual norms with disgust. Not as potential partners but as, (and this is the quote) "roastie whores." Couple this with the breakdown of the traditional economy that makes finding stable careers while in sexual prime (19-27) where hormones are also hitting the fever pitch for men, and you have a serious problem. Because getting men married during this period was considered essential in getting them to settle down and become productive members of society. The failure of our society to do this, coupled with all the other social pressures makes violence not just a likely outcome, but an inevitable one. Especially as the number of unattached young men increases. Add to that left wing screeds about toxic masculinity and white male privlige and you don't just have the build blocks for loan wolf terrorists, you are sowing the seeds of a violent revolution like the Arab Spring, which started for very similar reasons.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:39:59 Go wash your pussy, aeros
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 25 10:40:29 So he killed people because he didn’t get laid?
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 10:40:48 As always, Aeroes begins cogently and then ends in some kind of academic-sounding golbedy gook. Ockham's Razor. Lots of people were hurt by the great recession. Men are more likely than most to accept radical narratives because Macho attitudes. There's a scene from mad men where Joan is engaged to a guy who rapes her. She puts up with it because it was the 60's and women were expected to get married, even to marginal guys who were stupid assholes. Nowadays, these marginal guys don't even get the time of day from women. Cultural norms have dissipated and society is flatter. We're not going back so work on yourself like the rest of us do (and not just career, but personal development). Or just whine about getting backstabbed or how the dems are out to get you or whatever. Only one path actually improves your life.
hood Member	Wed Apr 25 10:45:45 "That doesn't change the website's popularity though." Of course not. That isn't even in contention. It's just a horrible, popular website.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 10:52:56 I agree with that sentiment, but the half of my post you say is golbedy gook is what these so called "incels" believe. For the record I have a wife and daughter so I am definitely not an involuntary celibate. I have simply been following the steady radicalization of internet Chan culture where many of these guys tend to congregate. They were cheering this attack in Toronto. Literally euphoric. People with Canadian registered IP addresses saying they hope to see MORE of them. Saying, "we are not going back, so all these men need to get with the program or else" is a terrible mentality. Because they are picking the "Or else", and not the "get with the program". Some of the manifestos I am seeing pop up online are starting to resemble Bin Laden's manifestos in many respects. The shear irrational disgust at society, and the fervent belief it needs to burn. Its going to start with attacks like the one in Toronto, but its going to get worse from there because these sorts of things always start low grade. The "incels" are extreme examples of disgust with society, but they are by no means alone on the spectrum. Every low grade civil war I have looked at (and even the high intensity ones) starts off with a gradual breakdown of social order caused by a few extreme radicals. Like John Browns crew in the 1850's America that ultimately led to full blown dissolution of the Union and war. Or in the case of Iraq, a few Salafist radicals blowing up Shia marketplaces, forcing the Shia to retaliate against all Sunni's everywhere, which in turn forced them to retaliate and so on tit for tat. If we are very happy with the direction our society is going and what to stay the course, then we must accept that a war of some sort will inevitably result. The most likely outcome would be something along the lines of the Northern Ireland "troubles", where we will start to see more Van attacks, mass shootings, and car bombs placed outside media studios.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 10:53:44 Btw, why couldn't that guy get laid? He doesn't look hideous on the photos. Either a horrible personality or he hit on women out of his league. You can't find a girl? Just aim lower. Maybe not an 8, aim for a 5. Alcohol is a great beautifier incidentally, use it.
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 25 10:56:57 ”There's a scene from mad men where Joan is engaged to a guy who rapes her. She puts up with it because it was the 60's and women were expected to get married, even to marginal guys who were stupid assholes. Nowadays, these marginal guys don't even get the time of day from women. Cultural norms have dissipated and society is flatter.” Yeah, earlier, women kinda had to get married because they needed a man to support them. Today women are more independent. They have their own income and women also tend to have more/better education than men, which makes them earn more money than many men. So a women is not going to pick just any guy. A man with no job or low income will have it harder to find a woman. Because they can’t compete. Their only hope is if they have a big dick. So they send dick picks to random women and hoping that someone will like their dick.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 10:58:05 And of course the very worst elements of our political discourse aren't blind to what is going on either and are more then happy to take advantage of it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt3I7HV4_ow
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 11:00:33 " So a women is not going to pick just any guy. A man with no job or low income will have it harder to find a woman." This isn't good for the Women either, as they end up having careers but not families.
hood Member	Wed Apr 25 11:06:56 Aeros just loves to predict war. Personally, I see a pretty easy remedy to this crap. Women have been set free in terms of sexuality, but not in terms of relationship dynamics. They still occupy the role of fair maiden to be won and not hunter to win fair maiden. With the dynamics of relationships still sitting with men being relied upon to initiate involvement, you will continue to see men frustrated at their efforts not bearing fruit. Get women out in the field, hunting men in a more proactive role. None of this "I'll send him signals so he knows I like him and will ask me out," bullshit. Just go fucking do it yourself. Realistically, with everyone owning their own sexual agency, men and women should equally share the responsibility of starting a relationship. I even believe that it would lower some of the less probable standards that women set for their future partner. Yes, of course, there will be anecdotes of women initiating a relationship, but we know that it's not common. It should be.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:07:12 CR: Been reading about them today too. The unbelievable sense of entitlement. Their policy platform of state awarded girlfriends, and limits on how many partners people can have. I joked about feeling with the misogynist alt righters that I was living in the backstory to Handmaids Tale. Turns out no joke.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 11:09:19 The fact that Seb knows the backstory behind a Handmaids Tale is proof that the need to fight against the progressive feminization of men is not unwarranted.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:11:37 Aeros: There is no crisis. These fucktards need to man up and accept there is no automatic right to success. You need to work for it, and you don't get to decide *how* you go about succeding. And we live at a time of maximum opportunity, the supposed "crisis" is just men (predominantly WASPs) being exposed to the same competition and risk of failure that everyone else has lived with. They need to grow up.
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 25 11:18:43 The problem is gonna be with the men who has no job or low income AND a small dick. I predict that we are gonna see more attacks like this one by these men in the future. The only way to prevent it is to give everyone an education and then a job with a decent salary.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 11:19:22 "the need to fight against the progressive feminization of men " I'll join that epic battle but only after The War on Christmas is won
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:20:15 Aeros, your line is akin to someone in 1930s Germany that says "look, we need to get rid of the jews because they are provoking Naziism. If we get rid of the Jews the Nazis will quiet down. Opposing anti-Semitism runs the risk of letting the Nazis take power on the back of public sentiment" It's bollocks. There is nothing acceptable about incel thinking. It is a collective delusion sustainable only in an echo box of obscure internet fora. Arguing it has legitimate roots on a "crisis in masculinity" is conceding the narrative and extending that normalisation beyond mad echo boxes. *That* is the danger here. The only crisis here is a demented sense of entitlement that used only to exist in the very upper echelons of society; turning to rage when it meets the reality that the world doesn't owe anyone a living. Basically, this is absolutely about privilege and an expectation of it.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 11:22:08 "Aeros just loves to predict war." True :P But in this case I am pretty confident in my prediction. "Get women out in the field, hunting men in a more proactive role." This could fix the problem to a great degree, and I know we like to say gender is a social construct. But its not. Its grounded in strong biological determination. The female of our species is driven by millions of years of evolution to be highly selective in who they engage in sexual relations with. Part of that selection process involves the male posturing to the female to show his worth. To insure he has the confidence and material ability to fight tigers off and provide food. Because our offspring are helpless little shits and while pregnant the woman is also pretty helpless. The time investment to successful raise a child also means you want the best genetics involved to insure that success since you don't get many opportunities for do overs. Sex also exposes the woman to disease, the inherent danger of pregnancy itself and so on. As consequence women's disgust mechanism is much higher towards the act then men's is. It can be overcome obviously, but its much more highly regulated. We can't just snap our fingers and change that. I'm also not convinced its a socially good idea, because it also puts the act of sex ahead of the need for children. Which is a seriously bad idea from a social perspective. FFS, our entire economic system is predicated on the notion there will be a new productive generation to replace the current one when it retires.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:25:54 Paramount: Maybe, but by any means these "losers" are not dying alone of hunger which happens elsewhere and in the not too recent past. Psychology tells us people measure their sense of success relatively. So I suspect that we can give them all jobs and security but the problem will get worse. Their belief in entitlement will grow. Ironically what they need most is a sense of personal accountability and responsibility. This used to be considered a core element of masculinity. It's these fucktards who demand gauranteed success (rather than opportunity) and without effort that are "unmanly". Think about Rudyard Kippling's If.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 11:27:31 Seb, Let's indulge your ctrl-left ideology for a minute and assume that allow white males are born into some ethereal "privilege," and policies and programs that have the effect of actively discriminating against white males are necessary to act as a counterweight to said privilege. Why would we as a demographic ever accept said policies and programs? There's nothing inherent in society that says we have to. Sure, establishment media can run hit pieces and Twitter trends can make the news, but if those are ignored, what's to force us to accepting This? For close to a decade now, the PC crowd on the left has basically demanded that white males be treated as a separate group. Very well, then as a group we should naturally fight for our own interests. And it's not in our interests to be treated as second class citizens by government, workplaces and educational institutions.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:29:23 Aeros: If this naive and simplistic little evolutionary parable were correct, how come farmers won out over Hunter gatherers? The former were smaller, and more malnourished for thousands of years before we adapted to that diet. Things are not as deterministic as you make out.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 11:31:05 hunters had other issues to contend with that farmers didn't
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 11:32:36 Rugian: It beggars belief that you can look at a group that is advocating terrorist attacks to support state allocated girlfriends and think that's not a demand for privilege. Ditto Aeros's endorsement of a view that allowing women access the Labour markets (So they can control their own economic fate) was a crisis. A demand that women be economically dependent on men is exactly demanding a privilege!
obaminated Member	Wed Apr 25 11:33:10 #lookwhowasntincludedintheinsult #firsttobeeaten
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 11:35:31 "A demand that women be economically dependent on men is exactly demanding a privilege!" Actually the crisis is we changed the rules for women but kept the rules for men the same.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 11:41:14 Seb, My post was in response to your claim that white males need to stop whining and accept that they now have to operate on the same playing field as everyone else. I argue that the field is not fair at all. Class, and only class, plays a significant role in how far you can get in life. A middle class woman doesn't need any institutional help climbing the career ladder, any more than a Negro attending Yale does. The fact that said help is available to them is the unfair part.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 11:49:53 "The fact that said help is available to them is the unfair part." With what I am reading about the people who believe that it is more advantageous in life to be colored instead of white, or to be female, these losers would still be losers, even if we invent affirmative action for them.
hood Member	Wed Apr 25 11:49:55 "#firsttobeeaten" We need to get this trending.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 11:53:28 How retarded is the fact that two worst massacres in Canada where done by these women haters, and not by some Allah guys. Montreal Polytechnique, and now this guy.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 11:54:43 I meant modern times, I am positive there ve been worse massacres back in the day, with indians and so on
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 12:01:33 @Aeros - The thing is, there were fundamental incongruities about these societies that caused things to escalate. In John Brown's case, slavery was a horrible institution that should never have stood. The rift between Shias and Sunnis has always been an important dimension of Middle Eastern troubles. There is no such fundamental problem with society other than the fact that dumb, helpless guys chose to stay hateful instead of helping themselves. I can understand maybe it being difficult during the depths of the great recession but now? Come on. As people have said, the guy who committed the attack looked like an average joe. He must have a horrible personality reinforced by online echo chambers to believe all the stupid shit he does. We should just shut 4chan down and all these other retarded places. These guys wouldn't have the initiative to rebuild their edgelord communities anyways. They don't even have the iniative to go outside and meet people.
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 12:05:28 Rugian with his stupid white victimhood bullshit. I acknowledge that white men do face problems but in relation to the minorities who face actual discrimination; it's small beans. If you cleaned yourself up and applied to good jobs, you wouldn't find any of the systemic discrimination that faces minorities in many fields. But of course, "Muh white men." Yeah, they only hold like 90% of all the wealth and leadership positions in the US. Maybe you should dispense with the backyard racism and see white male victimhood bullshit as gaslighting by mostly Republican elites to rip you and everybody else off.
Rugian Member	Wed Apr 25 12:08:52 CR, If you were in your 20s now, you'd already be making less than your female counterparts. I'd say the need for social justice is overblown at this point. "They don't even have the iniative to go outside and meet people." How does one meet people outside? As an alt-right loser, I sometimes try to be social by chatting up strangers in parks, but it never seems to work. Oh well, back to the basement for me.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 12:10:35 Aeros: They certainly did - but the idea that women were looking for big hunky men to protect them seems not to be born out. Weedy malnourished farmers still got laid and procreated. Not that there is in fact much evidence to show that women in Paleolithic times were motivated that way or needed protection (that's an assumption and why evolutionary psychology is considered so dodgy). What rules did we change for women exactly? Let them attend university, get jobs, have the vote? Rugian: Really though, that's empecially provably false. But we don't need to go there as it is besides the point - the "anger" that fuels incels and the "crisis in masculinity" Aeros refers to is nothing more than a frustrated expectation of success - the idea that the possibility of failure is unfair. Their rage is generated from the lack of a privilege they expect.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 12:11:11 US right wing political views was never my cup of tea, but until a certain point in time, there used to be one trait you'd admire in these ppl, namely, their confidence in their abilities, how they can outcompete anyone, in any circumstances. At some point, and I can't recall when exactly, the right wing became full of whiny losers, 'waa, the indian guy stole my job, the blacks are getting too much help, waa, women waa chinks", waa, waa.
CrownRoyal Member	Wed Apr 25 12:13:11 "If you were in your 20s now, you'd already be making less than your female counterparts. " No. And if I was, I'd be concerned with what I* make, not what females make. The idea that it is better to be a woman in today's world is foreign to me.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 12:14:42 I love MRAs. Women's rights activists go run shelters and support women in need. MRAs harass women on the internet, insult other men, and want to know why there are no Men's Shelters and no international men's day (there actually is, hits 19th Nov, but MRAs only think about IMD on IWD). Let's face it, MRAs is just one big confused, childish bag of buthurt.
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 25 12:18:18 ”I sometimes try to be social by chatting up strangers in parks, but it never seems to work.” You have to put a smile on your face. And be careful so that no one calls the cops on you. You can’t just walk up to women and chat with them. If someone thinks you look or act suspicious they will start to yell and then a mob will gather and beat you up.
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 14:31:53 Also remember to bathe and shave and not wear a giant t-shirt that says, "Fuck you Cuck." Ladies are kind of turned off by that.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Apr 25 14:40:44 "These fucktards need to man up and accept there is no automatic right to success. " Did seb just say that? How very unleftist of you! Congrats on thinking!
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 25 14:40:45 "Women's rights activists go run shelters and support women in need. MRAs harass women on the internet, insult other men, and want to know why there are no Men's Shelters and no international men's day (there actually is, hits 19th Nov, but MRAs only think about IMD on IWD)." You're forgetting the part where women protest and shame a woman who opens a men's shelter, protest and shame a man who does the same, lobby against him receiving the equivalent funding that women's shelters receive, it goes under and he commits suicide. But sure. Keep living in your land of false equivalences.
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 25 14:50:09 Seb's moms protesting Erin Pizzey, the founder of the first women's shelter, because she also founded a men's shelter and said women could be capable of domestic violence: http://m.imgur.com/gallery/6HtvHhm
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 15:45:24 Sam: I've never said I'm left. That's your simplistic thinking. I'm what is known classically as Liberal (which is Not necessarily the same as what Americans call liberal).
Seb Member	Wed Apr 25 15:48:23 Forwyn: People campaign against woman's rights and shelters too. The odd few misguided people exist. But how then is it virtually none of the men's rights activists are doing anything for men at all, merely carping at women?
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 25 15:59:07 Are you: A) Implying that no shelters are run by men, and B) Implying there is no disparity in the difficulty of acquiring funding for men's shelters?
Dukhat Member	Wed Apr 25 18:13:11 Turns out the story about the man that ran a man's shelter and killed himself wasn't typical cuckservative gas-lighting. Still, the fact that there are real issues that affect men that should be dealt with doesn't mean that many if not most Men's Right Activists are really hateful people. God, if the alt-right actually had issue advocacy instead of being a bunch of hateful edgelords; Trump might have actually had some kind of agenda his first 2 years.
Aeros Member	Wed Apr 25 18:36:09 The casual dismissal is dangerous though. Anyone watch that youtube link I posted? Whether the anger or disconnectedness these people feel is justified or not, they DO feel it, and that leaves them open to being exploited by people who pretend to care. And if only the worst elements act like they care, then those are the elements they will latch onto. I saw this exact same shit in Iraq. The people we were fighting out in the fields were not men with farms and wives. It was boys without jobs and wives. Hell, the biggest recruiting tool ISIS had was they offered new members wives (and also offered women who joined the promise of being those wives). This is something our society used to understand at a fundamental level. We made sure our young men got married. Even before they got sent to college if that was an option. Now however, we are building a society where women have an unlimited reproductive destiny thanks to birth control. Can pursue careers that elevate them far above most males, forcing them to "marry down" if they want to marry down at all. What appears to be happening instead is an epidemic of single motherhood, and career oriented women not getting married because they refuse to marry down the socio-economic ladder. With the inverse effect meaning there is an entire generation of unmarried males as well. The social trends are also not improving on this front either. They are getting worse. What happened here in Toronto, and with this sudden surge in school shootings should be a canary in the coal mine. This issue of purposeless and unmarried young men is something that has been plaguing the middle east for the last 30 years. Its starting to happen here, and the results are going to be exactly the same.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 26 02:05:40 Just a year ago or two I thought the idea of civil war in a western country was crazy. God dam Aeros I hope 50 years from now people can laugh and call us paranoid doomsayers.
jergul large member	Thu Apr 26 02:17:17 Aeros There is nothing uncommon about men being unable to marry historically. Asking women to marry down, or marry at all in the name of violence prevention seems a bit excessive. Male self-realization. Well, factor in computer games. Or whatever.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 04:23:24 Aeros: Then the correct approach for "acknowledging" this is the same way we address other radicalising ideologies. 1. Education 2. Deradicalisation programmes 3. Shut down web fora and other places people radicalise. If we can do this for people advocating terrorism in the name of Islam (conflated - but not legitimised - as it is with far more real grievances of discrimination and imperialism) we can do it for this crap. "What appears to be happening instead is an epidemic of single motherhood, and career oriented women not getting married" This is simply not true. Most single motherhood is concentrated in the low class women as feckless men screw around and eschew responsibility. What statistics do you have for a significant rise on successful women avoiding children and marriage? I am surrounded by successful women who marry and have kids. And given the gender imbalance in professional classes towards men, there is no shortage of successful men to look for, so the idea that successful women give up on marriage thrpugh lack of choice seem dubious at best. And even if that were true, the solution sounds like we would be better off normalising stay-at-home dads and paternity leave which would simultaneously allow women more leeway to have kids without damaging their career and create more options for men too. But I don't think men can demand to always be the breadwinner and head of household - that's something men need to sort out in our own idea of masculinity. Almost none of this men's rights stuff if approached sensibly is misaligned with feminism. MRAs mostly are not for addressing injustices to men, they are opposed to addressing injustices to women.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 04:27:31 Nim: 50 years ago an MP gave a speech in parliament about immigration "in 50 years time the black man will hold the whip over the white man, I see like the Roman, the river Tiber foaming red with much blood". The gist was ethnically pure states. You and and Aeros are essentially making the same argument here: adopt bad policies innpremptive surrender against a tiny minority that project their failures onto others, or risk civil war. The rivers of blood did not flow. We ignored Enoch Powell and we should ignore you.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 04:52:00 Dwelling on aeros post and the concept of privilege. He worries that women can now eschew marriage and rise to senior levels far above most men (this is inevitable for an unequal capitalist society: those that reach the top tiers will be better off than most people of any gender). This is the norm for men and still true for most men. Yet we do not see women going around murdering people. It seems to me that if we have in to these sort of unreasonable demands, you are endorsing every group that feels disenfranchised in some way to embark on violence. When radical feminist terrorists start spree killing, what will Aeros and Non advocate then?
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 06:30:47 This "crisis" in masculinity is largely a consequence of people (largely other men) imposing a set of social norms that severely limit men's chances of success in the economy, workplace and in relationships, and punishing those that transgress them. Forcing people to chose between being a good husband, father and worker or being "a proper man" (emotionally repressed, over sexed and eschewing activities and behaviours seen as feminine like collaboration, empathy or administrative work) is exactly what is meant by toxic masculinity. It is to these people MRAs should address their focus rather than a vain attempt to change the world so that success can be achieved despite these qualities.
hood Member	Thu Apr 26 07:58:57 "3. Shut down web fora and other places people radicalise." Oh fuck off, cunt. "And given the gender imbalance in professional classes towards men, there is no shortage of successful men to look for, so the idea that successful women give up on marriage thrpugh lack of choice seem dubious at best." You must not be paying attention. It's certainly not an epidemic as Aeros claims, but there is definitely a subset of women who get the idea of the perfect man in their heads and try to hold out for that idealised person. Women (belonging to the aforementioned subset) still seem to be in the mindset that they should be extremely picky about potential relationships because they will be constantly barraged with propositions. "But I don't think men can demand to always be the breadwinner and head of household - that's something men need to sort out in our own idea of masculinity." This isn't a male problem, this is a society problem. Both men and women value a job as part of a man's worth. I agree it should change, but to suggest that it's a male only problem is willfully blinding yourself. "Forcing people to chose between being a good husband, father and worker or being "a proper man" (emotionally repressed, over sexed and eschewing activities and behaviours seen as feminine like collaboration, empathy or administrative work) is exactly what is meant by toxic masculinity." I'm not sure you're a real person anymore. Do you actually see this on a regular basis at your job? Cause I see a bunch of dudes (well actually, I don't see that many dudes because healthcare is dominated by women) that are just normal dudes being decent workers. In fact, most of the posturing I've seen in the workplace has come from women. Of course, my anecdotes are just as invalid as yours, but please recognize that this idea of proper man that you suggested just isn't how most adult men act. Stop being a sexist pig, stop generalizing a stereotype to an entire gender.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 08:45:03 Hood: We shut down web fora where wannabe islamists hang out. Are you opposed to that? When they say "we've taken steps to disrupt terrorist plotting" - what do you think they mean? Do you think that they are carefully assessing "ah that's just a guy blowing off steam, he isn't really going to cut the heads off the infedel". No. They take every word seriously and if they see a channel like that, they issue a take down notice to the ISP. Do you say "OMG cunts" then Hood?
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 08:49:40 *IF* Aeros argument is right and these are unignorably dangerous people who - should we ignore their mad demands - are liable to explode into violence on a scale approaching civil war - *THEN* it follows we should respond to them now as we respond to Islamic terrorism before too many become radicalized. Now if you think that's probably overkill, I actually agree. But teaching people about consent in sex ed etc is clearly needed given some of these stated beliefs.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 09:13:58 Hood: "there is definitely a subset of women who get the idea of the perfect man in their heads and try to hold out for that idealised person." 1. They generally tend to find someone. Those that don't are not a big enough to appear as a statistical phenomenon. 2. Men do the same - normally on looks. 3. Even if all that were true - it's their ducking choice. Would you want to be dragooned into settling for a partner you are not satisfied with? People choosing to be alone and not to settle is a legitimate fucking choice. There are far, far more men wondering around without a partner because they like casual sex and no commitment. Has this ever been considered a societal issue thst needs to be addressed outside of a theocracy? "This isn't a male problem, this is a society problem. Both men and women value a job as part of a man's worth." True. But the primary enforcement of this is Men's shame and fear of other Men's opinion. At the lower end income demographics, there may be many women who expect a man to be able to provide, but then I'd raise two points: A. That's against the narrative that the problem is successful women. B. Solution is to address pay disparities. Women in the lower tail of income have lower wages. Finally, which group is most actively trying to push this attitude out and replace it with one that is more tolerant to men not being sole breadwinner? The Feminists. Who is the group most organised in opposing this? Men's rights activists! " Do you actually see this on a regular basis at your job?" No, because in my socio economic class there simply is no opposition to the concept of sex equality. Where I see this behaviour is predominantly on line, or overheard conversations in the gym, bus, cafes (I live greasy spoon cafes), and small c conservative media. Take this forum for example: how many times have people suggested I must have a vagina or be a pussy when arguing for sexual equality? Think about the nature of that insult. Not a dick. Not an asshole. The implication is supposed to be "you are not a proper man, you have transgressed the accepted norms". Now take healthcare - you honestly telling me make nurses are considered universally by other men to be in a good manly occupation? We have a male childcarer at my daughter's nursery. Half the parents are worried "he might be ... well, I just govt want him changing my kids nappy". Take the explicit arguments of MRAs and Aeros's sanitisatiom of them... He genuinely thinks that there's less good work for men. As if men can't do data entry, secretarial functions, be PAs etc. What is implicit is that service sector jobs are demeaning - where are the heavy industry jobs gone and why aren't those paid enough to allow a man to raise a family. There are plenty of service sector jobs that you can do, but you'll need to have a dual income household and leave school with good grades and focusing on interpersonal skills though.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Apr 26 09:15:35 "Those that don't are not a big enough to appear as a statistical phenomenon" Look at seb using stats when it suits him.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 09:16:08 Why the fuck is Google's keyboard is changing perfectly correctly spelled words to different words? Grrr.
Seb Member	Thu Apr 26 10:00:24 Sam: "Look at Seb correctly using statistics where it makes sense to, unlike me, who cannot, because I'm inummerate." I corrected this for you.
hood Member	Thu Apr 26 10:01:56 "Why the fuck is Google's keyboard is changing perfectly correctly spelled words to different words?" Google's keyboard has blown chunks for over a year now. It's ducking maddening (har). "We shut down web fora where wannabe islamists hang out. Are you opposed to that?" It depends. Are we talking stormfront level stuff where it's just a conglomerate of idiots? Or are we talking ISIS recruiting sites? My "fuck off cunt" was because I know, by history, that you're ok with silencing stormfront level crap and not just the actual problems. Nobody should be shutting down 4chan. It's a cesspit, but it's perfectly legal (once they scrub the child porn that people post). "1. They generally tend to find someone. Those that don't are not a big enough to appear as a statistical phenomenon. 2. Men do the same - normally on looks. 3. Even if all that were true - it's their ducking choice. Would you want to be dragooned into settling for a partner you are not satisfied with? People choosing to be alone and not to settle is a legitimate fucking choice. There are far, far more men wondering around without a partner because they like casual sex and no commitment. Has this ever been considered a societal issue thst needs to be addressed outside of a theocracy?" 1. I don't disagree. But these people tend to not settle until their 30s. That supports Aeros' point about young men (sub-30). 2. We do, to a degree. But despite all of the male posturing, most men would be more than willing to settle for a nice, generic 5. 3. Your reply seems to indicate that you think I'm suggesting otherwise. I'm not. Please do not go full on Seb and assume that I have full agreement with Aeros simply because I point out that there is a bit of truth to his wild musings. Nowhere did I suggest that women be forced to marry, nowhere did I suggest that we capitulate to incels. I just recognize that there are women who turn a nose on anyone who isn't perfect. They're perfectly free to do so. Calm yo tits. "But the primary enforcement of this is Men's shame and fear of other Men's opinion." I completely disagree. Whether you are willfully ignoring the depths a man would go to impress a lady or are completely oblivious to it, the end result is the same: a complete dismissal of the power women hold simply by being able to sit back and say no to a potential suitor. "At the lower end income demographics, there may be many women who expect a man to be able to provide, but then I'd raise two points: A. That's against the narrative that the problem is successful women. B. Solution is to address pay disparities. Women in the lower tail of income have lower wages." At the any-end income democraphics. Women all the way up the pay scale expect men to put money in the bank. Do you somehow think a woman making $40k a year suddenly isn't going to value a husband with a job? She may not demand he make equal or better pay, but you can be damned sure he better have a job. "Finally, which group is most actively trying to push this attitude out and replace it with one that is more tolerant to men not being sole breadwinner? The Feminists. Who is the group most organised in opposing this? Men's rights activists!" Completely irrelevant to my discussion. I'm not entering the mra v feminist debate, I'm simply point out some of the truths to Aeros' commentary. Which, again, doesn't mean I agree at all with his conclusions. "Take this forum for example: how many times have people suggested I must have a vagina or be a pussy when arguing for sexual equality?" Let's just put this out there - this forum is a terrible example of anything. We should stick to real world examples, not U ducking P. "Now take healthcare - you honestly telling me make nurses are considered universally by other men to be in a good manly occupation?" Probably a bad example. Healthcare wants male nurses about as badly as the tech industry wants women. And in the healthcare industry, a male being a nurse isn't an issue at all. Individuals might have that problem, but not the industry as a whole. "We have a male childcarer at my daughter's nursery. Half the parents are worried "he might be ... well, I just govt want him changing my kids nappy"." Indeed. This, again, is a society issue, not a male issue. Women are at least as guilty of this way of thinking. "As if men can't do data entry, secretarial functions, be PAs etc. What is implicit is that service sector jobs are demeaning - where are the heavy industry jobs gone and why aren't those paid enough to allow a man to raise a family. There are plenty of service sector jobs that you can do, but you'll need to have a dual income household and leave school with good grades and focusing on interpersonal skills though." Aeros didn't say a single word of this and you should stop projecting onto him. "Think about the nature of that insult. Not a dick. Not an asshole. The implication is supposed to be "you are not a proper man, you have transgressed the accepted norms"." People insult others to elicit negative feelings. If someone finds being called female genitalia offensive, that says more about the insulted than the insulter.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 26 11:12:32 ”1. They generally tend to find someone. Those that don't are not a big enough to appear as a statistical phenomenon.” Generally many more men go without finding someone (to procreate with) than women, by a good margin. You can ask your friend jergul. There is nothing in contemporary feminist narrative of the victimized female that holds up under scrutiny. And when it comes to women, there is not a culture on earth where women ”generally” marry men from lower class or status then themselves. It is very simple, there is no correlation between the status of a woman and her ability to carry children, there is a strong correlation between loser men and their inability to provide. The type of ”truth” that holds over an evolutionary time frame. And you keep talking about some small minority, what small minority elected Trump and voted Brexit? The IYI in you is strong.
Paramount Member	Thu Apr 26 11:32:45 Marriage is something from the past. Even if you marry, you will divorce in 2-5 years. It is very common in today’s society. What matters is getting laid, not marriage per se. Women doesn’t need marriage either. They can get laid and get pregnant and then raise the kid on their own.
TJ Member	Thu Apr 26 12:24:54 The forced rejection of old patterns in nature create a high level of unrest. I suspect it will lead us into a totalitarian existence. Entropy is the current environment. Everyone should be aware of the natural tendency in the creation of disorderly chaos. I suspect the objectives are illusory and fairness designated as the foundation. Considering the seriousness of this subject it deserves some satirical humor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icqNwwpLtEE
Seb Member	Fri Apr 27 03:26:10 Hood: What do you think ISIS recruiting sites are? They aren't a centrally organised service. They are places exactly like a crappy thread on 4chan (Islamic equivalent) where people talk shut about hating promiscuous westerners and share videos of shit in the middle East until either they convince themselves to do a lone wolf attack or they find someone who is actively recruiting and get pulled into/accepted into their orbit. Then it's all TOR and encrypted. Western intelligence agencies actively focus on shutting those sites down. If they were consistent they'd be doing it with the likes of stormfront. And if incel are as dangerous as Aeros suggests, why not? "I completely disagree" Just after you tell me to calm my tits! The irony! " the power women hold" That's not power, that's basic freedom. Men can and do say no all the time and there are far more men who don't want to settle down at 30 than women. "Let's just put this out there - this forum is a terrible example of anything. We should stick to real world examples, not U ducking P." So it's unusual for men to call put behaviour of other men in informal situations as being effeminate? Are you kidding me? Next time you go out for beers with friends, order a really girly cocktail and see if they take the piss a bit. Are you honestly trying to claim this isn't a phenomenon? "Healthcare wants male nurses about as badly as the tech industry wants women" Read the question though. I didn't ask whether Healthcare industry views make nurses as ok. I asked generally what men are likely to think of other men that work as a nurse. Or put it another way, are you telling me that many men would not be put off working as a nurse both as seeing it as woman's work and concern that other men a would see it as effeminate? "Aeros didn't say a single word of this and you should stop projecting onto him. " Aeros talked about non traditional economy, economic prospects of women, better opporunities, and he's been more specific in the past. My response speaks exactly to that. And the kind of anti women's right argument of this ilk at common. Its not projection. Your reaponse on the insult angle is disingenuous. I find it laughable ratger than insulting; but it's simply not true that it says more about me than the poster. The poster intended it to be offensive, and the choice of term was intended to convey a specific meaning not as a random expletive. You know that perfectly well.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 27 03:29:35 Nim: Sex ratios are damn close to 50:50, and western society frowns on bigamy. So single men ought to be matched to single women (neglecting homosexuality). I would guess the largest number of single women are made up of single mums. Not many young men want to settle down and look after someone else's kids.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 27 03:32:28 Interesting you link incels with brexit and trump. I think incels, violent ones at least, a tiny minority. And even if likely trumpists, a tiny minority of trumpists.
delude Member	Fri Apr 27 05:01:21 Uh oh, Seb projecting again.
Seb Member	Fri Apr 27 05:47:36 delude: No delude, Nim, referring to this: "You and and Aeros are essentially making the same argument here: adopt bad policies innpremptive surrender against a tiny minority that project their failures onto others, or risk civil war." said: "And you keep talking about some small minority, what small minority elected Trump and voted Brexit? The IYI in you is strong." It is only a fraction of the people on incel boards advocating and carrying out terrorist murders for a mad agenda (state allocated girlfriends and laws against promiscuity). Nim is the one that projected these to be Trump supporters - this is not that unlikely an assertion - so at best we are talking a tiny minority of trump supporters being incels, and a tiny minority of them being violent ones. Hope that cleared things up for you.
hood Member	Fri Apr 27 08:12:13 ""I completely disagree" Just after you tell me to calm my tits! The irony!" Insert a princess Bride quote here about words not meaning what you think they mean. "" the power women hold" That's not power, that's basic freedom." Are you really suggesting there's no power in being the one to make the decision? There is absolutely power in being the person to accept or deny a relationship request vs the requester. You might want to brush up on your understanding of life and interaction. "Are you kidding me? Next time you go out for beers with friends, order a really girly cocktail and see if they take the piss a bit." Literally 3 days ago I ordered a margarita at an after hours work gathering. Nobody said anything about it. I think you or your people live in the past. But then again, we're all pretty well versed in British drinking habits. "So it's unusual for men to call put behaviour of other men in informal situations as being effeminate?" Yay ignoring context! Yes, this happens. How often is it true derision? How often is it a joke among friends? How many men are actually going around suggesting that you have to be an 19th century rail worker or you aren't manly enough? Your ranting reminds me of how subtly prejudice British people are. It's pretty offensive. "Read the question though. I didn't ask whether Healthcare industry views make nurses as ok. I asked generally what men are likely to think of other men that work as a nurse. Or put it another way, are you telling me that many men would not be put off working as a nurse both as seeing it as woman's work and concern that other men a would see it as effeminate?" I have not seen any issues on this in the past 5-10 years. In fact, in some nursing heavy parts of the US, being a male doesn't matter: nursing is prestigious. See above about British prejudice.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 27 09:46:10 seb I have no idea what you are talking about. Lets try again. More men than women go without procreating or finding a partner. That is how it is now and has been since as far back as we can trace our DNA. The men who do have children have more children on average than women. Men are victims of an unfair biological system. When we are talking about a civil war and as Aeros described, how they can start by a small violent minority. So to expand on that, you need a small minority who is willing to kill and be killed, you also need a plausible grievance narrative. Presumably one that can be scaled to include others. We have plenty of that already. These people are not core republican supporters, but they are Trump "supporters" who fall into the bigger category of people who voted for him as a protest vote or because they found Hillary (the feminist) a worse candidate. I see how brittle this system is, the crisis of the EU after the refugee wave, Brexit, Trump... Something has been brewing ever since the internet went into high gear. Algorithmic polarization or whatever it is, I don't take for granted that our system will survive it. I also don't take for granted that in trying to solve it, we will not end up breaking more things. Remember social media was suppose to bring us closer together and put us in touch with the entire world. It did, but turns out we were not ready for this level of intimacy. Log on to facebook and realize the world is full of assholes, trolls, Islamist, nazis, post modern clowns and hysterical feminists. But seriously, keep calm and carry on.
TJ Member	Fri Apr 27 10:39:27 The word fairness will win the battle.
hood Member	Fri Apr 27 16:55:41 http://ars...ms-are-antisocial-cyber-teams/ An interesting link for Mr. Collaboration.
jergul large member	Fri Apr 27 18:10:21 Hood That you actually know of "The Princess Bride" has raised my estimation of you considerably. Please pretend to give a fuck. Nimi Or men could play computer games on citizen's wages (samfunnlønn). See Maslow. Women do not actually have to fuck men below their taste for societies to be non-violent. The real problem is economic disenfranchement. Sex can compensate for that to some extent. But would you sleep with the men you are inferring women should bed? I think not. And what is bad for gander is bad for goose.
obaminated Member	Fri Apr 27 18:48:00 Just skimmed this argument. Women have the power to say yes or no to men, thereby being able to be more selective. However, men can a woman a decade younger than them (just an example) and the woman wont really care. But a man wouldnt want to date a considerably older woman. Societal balance.
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