Utopia Talk / Politics / Equality in jihad

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 24 02:27:24 DOZENS of foreign ISIS brides are being sentenced to death in Iraq as the country exacts its revenge after three years of jihadi occupation. Pleading that they themselves are victims, the women were given 10 minutes to beg for their lives before judges decided their sentence. Many of them find little sympathy with the Iraqi judiciary and locals and are despised for their support of their militant husbands, who tore the country apart between 2014 and 2017. French citizen Djamila Boutoutao, 29, appeared in court last month and claimed: “I thought I had married a rapper. It was only when we arrived in Turkey for a week-long ‘holiday’ that I discovered my husband was a jihadist.” She reappeared in court again last week alongside 14 other women, The Guardian reported, where she begged to keep her daughter. She is among an estimated 1900 French citizens and 40,000 foreigners who travelled to join ISIS’s so-called caliphate in Iraq and Syria. “I’m going mad here. I’m facing a death sentence or life in prison. No one tells me anything, not the ambassador, not people in prison,” she said. “Don’t let them take my daughter away. I am willing to offer money if you can contact my parents. Please get me out of here.” According to the paper, at least 40 women have been sentenced to death, while it’s believed around 300 people in total with links to ISIS have so far been executed. More than 1000 people have been placed in Baghdad jails after being identified as either members of the group or relatives of fighters. Most of the women are widowed and many are the only caregiver left for the small children born to terrorist dads. Last month, a court in Baghdad handed 19 Russian women life sentences for “joining and supporting” the terror group. Al-Jazeera reported many of them claimed they were misled into making the trip to Iraq. One said: “I did not know we were in Iraq. I went with my husband and my children to Turkey to live there and then I suddenly discovered I was actually in Iraq.” The broadcaster reports that more than 20,000 have been detained on suspicion of ties to the group. http://www...8a7c838e7e0e8f02a7eae698bdbcb4
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 24 02:32:40 ”Most of the women are widowed and many are the only caregiver left for the small children born to terrorist dads.” And moms, terrorist moms as well. This isn’t really a balanced article. I thought he was a rapper.. lol
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 06:14:50 Kill em all
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 07:42:46 The Iraqis bothered with a trial. More then these women deserved.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 07:47:09 I read this earlier this morning. Since then I have been trying to work up some sympathy for them. I can't do it.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 08:46:11 There are plenty of examples of trafficked women. "Kill them all. God will know his own." is rather the spirit of fundamentalists.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 24 09:42:29 Plenty of examples. Non that fit the scope of this thread or the women in the article. Whataboutthat?
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 09:42:42 Or in war. Military Justice is to Justice what Military Music is to Music. Wake up. Smell the napalm.
obaminated Member	Thu May 24 09:53:33 Ironically, I am the weak willed one here who doesn't want to condemn a woman for what her husband did.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 09:55:56 Aid and Comfort to the enemy.
obaminated Member	Thu May 24 09:57:51 i dont recall us killing the wives to kamakazis in ww2.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 10:01:10 Nim: How do you know that? Hot rod: Are you suggesting then that any civilian that gives aid and comfort to a combatant can be executed? If so, why do we prohibit attacks on civilians?
Seb Member	Thu May 24 10:02:45 Honestly I don't see how it can be justified to kill someone for merely being married to a terrorist, or even knowingly married a terrorist.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 24 10:09:00 They were sentenced for non trafficking related offences.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 24 10:14:57 I am sure the ruling is worded differently than ”married to a terrorist”. But nice of you to assume they were innocent and simply happened to be married to terrorists. The womenz will appreciate that. It is part of the same narrative, that Islamist women are innocent and dragged into everything. They are not. It isn’t justified to execute people regardless of crime of course, but I have bo reason to doubt their guilt more than their husbands’ who were either droned, in prison or executed.
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 12:51:53 "i dont recall us killing the wives to kamakazis in ww2." We nuked and firebombed them in their homes. Lol. "or even knowingly married a terrorist. " Fuck that. Fry em.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 13:15:40 Seb - Are you suggesting then that any civilian that gives aid and comfort to a combatant can be executed? We did bomb innocents during World War II but that was Total War. These women married terrorists freely. Actually, we are not executing them. Iraq is. Iraq is a bit harsher than France was. They just shaved the heads of the collaborators.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 13:26:07 Nim: "More than 1000 people have been placed in Baghdad jails after being identified as either members of the group ****or relatives of fighters****."
Seb Member	Thu May 24 13:30:00 Hot Rod: So, if a woman marries a US soldier freely and knowingly, by giving aid and comfort, does she make herself a legitimate military target of, or commit a crime against a country the US is at war with, should she ever find herself in the power of that regime? Would any civilised country would recognise that as writing death sentence over?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 14:02:12 We are at war with terrorists. They do not need a reason to target anyone. Besides, they are not dealing with civilized nations.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 14:03:12 Under Islamic law, absolutely. Me and Sam are just being culturally understanding here. In the west we don't punish the immediate family for the sins of one of its members. Under Islamic jurisprudence you do. These women more often then not knew what they were doing and went to these Jihadists without the consent of their fathers. This is Zina and us such they are whores who provided services to Iraq's enemies. The punishment for Zina can be death is certain circumstances and this is one of them.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 14:06:10 They are nit being executed for.marrying ISIS members as the marriages are invalid. They are traitorous whores and the given punishment under Islamic law is death by stoning. The hangmans noose is far more humane and progressive. So there is that.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 15:09:49 Aeros: I don't know why you think I put cultural sensitivity above human rights but that's your own lunacy. I tend to judge things my values, and it looks to me when you are cheering this on you are displaying yours.
Forwyn Member	Thu May 24 15:59:34 You're not operating under a terrorist flag unless you physically carry a rifle or plant an IED. - Seb
Forwyn Member	Thu May 24 16:00:07 Let them bear more terrorist sons, while we continue to bleat about proper treatment.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 16:49:17 Human Rights = western understanding of them with an emphasis on the individual. Islamic law is all about the group not the individual. All crimes and punishments are based in what is in the best interest of the Islamic Umma, the whole, and not in the specifics of the individual case or the individual charged. At issue here is a bunch of women who decided to get adventurous, leave their families against the orders of their fathers, and then engage in unsanctioned sexual relations with enemies of Iraq. The specifics of each case are not as important as the overall problem, which is what is on trial. Each individual is merely in accessory to the larger crime and thus must share in the burden of punishment. The fact that they are women is further problematic as their testimony is not admissible. They are women, and the Koran teaches plainly that women are manipulative liars. This must be taken into account when weighing their testimony. If there fathers were to travel to Iraq and speak on their behalf, it may be possible they could have their sentences commuted in exchange for their families paying reparations to Iraq or those effected by ISIS. Of course, many of these girls have been disowned, so sucks to be them.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 17:10:33 I really couldn't give a shit what Islamic law says. You aren't Islamic aeros, and you appear to be cheerleading dome pretty gross violations of fundamental rights "trial is more tgan thty deserved" and I'm keen to understand how you defend that position.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 17:51:13 Because the world isnt nice and these women helped push a hateful ideology that committed acts that cannot be forgiven. Warhammer actually hits on this, though I think they were trying to be ironic. Isis represents heresy. An idea that poses an existential threat to civilization and the ideals we hold dear. We can beat it back, defeat it on the battlefields, argue in the courts and write endless pages of words denouncing it. But these are only temporary solutions that will never kill the ideas behind Isis. And given time they will come back. Ever stronger. You question what right we have, to argue every man, woman, and child tied to ISIS should be killed. But I would respond that we have no right to let them live. In the face of such ideological fanaticism no sacrifice is too small. No punishment too severe.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 17:54:54 Incidentally this has quietly been U.S. and European policy as well. Most American and EU citizen captured while fighting for Isis were summarily shot. The women at least get the dignity of a triAl before they too, are killed.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 18:19:35 Aeros: Your pushing a hateful ideology that disparages the rule of law and promotes guilt by association. Which is of course heresy against western values. Can I kill your wife then?
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 18:45:38 I don't think so. I made the distinction earlier. Military Justice is to Justice what Military Music is to Music. What works when we are at peace and are attempting to maintain that peace is very different to what works when peace has broken down and needs to be restored. Take Sam's comments about the nuking and the fire bombing of Japan and Germany at the end of world war 2. Was that in keeping with western legal norms and ethics? Absolutely not. And we didn't even try and pretend it was. The generals were up front about their desire to make the civilian populations of those countries suffer and bring ruin on their heads until they broke. Our legal traditions and niceties in can play a role in war by mitigating the horror of it. But they cannot mitigate what it is in the abstract. War is when nice and legal methods of doing business fail. And whatever is needed to restore the peace is what needs to be done. Up to and including killing them all so God may know his own.
hood Member	Thu May 24 19:27:35 It's pretty obvious why Aeros fetishises the Imperium.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu May 24 20:22:17 he be circumcised.
Aeros Member	Thu May 24 22:13:46 Nah it's a shitty governing system. I do however like the idea of religious belief contending with unbridled chaos.
Nekran Member	Fri May 25 01:35:49 "You question what right we have, to argue every man, woman, and child tied to ISIS should be killed. But I would respond that we have no right to let them live. In the face of such ideological fanaticism no sacrifice is too small. No punishment too severe." Should you not pose this question about your own ideology and answer it in the same manner then, considering how extreme and fanatic it is?
Forwyn Member	Fri May 25 01:44:48 It is extreme to ignore 1400 years of ideological savagery. It is extreme to forget how close Continental Europe came to being an Islamic puppet state, multiple times. It is not extreme to acknowledge it, and to note that treating said savages to modern ideals is naive. It is not extreme to treat jihadi accomplices as accomplices to the terror their partners wrought.
Asgard Member	Fri May 25 02:50:22 The part about Russian women married Iraqi fighters is interesting. Arab people in general have a "desire" for Russian women. I can tell a bit of that in Israeli reality. Israel's population is 8 million while 1.5 million of them are Russian-born, mostly jews who immigrated when the USSR fell. They mostly live in specific cities, where else they are fully integrated. One such specific city is in the south of Israel, where I went to university. It's a city of 1/3 Russians, 1/3 mostly regular jews, and then there are also 1/3 Bedouin Arabs, who live in the city as well in villages in the outskirts. Russians in general in Israel tend to keep to their language and culture, and are less integrated than other jews. It is a "sport" among Bedouin arabs to have sex with Russian girls, thinking of them as slutty or as just sluts. The more blonde they are, the better. They even take some as wives and bring them to their villages where they become muslim and wear tents over themselves. But often they are tricked, lavished with gifts and money and after marriage they are treated as trash just for regular sex. This behavior goes back centuries, as the Muslim people south of the Black sea used to raid the Slavic people living north of it to bring back Slavic girls for sex slavery.
Seb Member	Fri May 25 03:25:56 Aeros: But your a heretic, promulgating ideas that threaten society etc. Your own argument is that I have no right to let you or your wife exist. Not only can I kill you both, you argue I'm obliged to.
Seb Member	Fri May 25 07:12:06 Forwyn: Accomplice has to have more legal meaning and weight than "was related to and lived with a convicted terrorist".
Sam Adams Member	Fri May 25 09:18:49 No seb. Killing for a good reason doesnt allow you to kill for a retarded reason. Stop being retarded.
Seb Member	Fri May 25 09:24:58 Sam: It's the same reason. Aeros argues that because islamists represent a fundamental challenge to western values that we have no right to let them or their family live. That view itself is an enormous challenge to western ideals. By his own argument, we have no right to let him or his family live.
Sam Adams Member	Fri May 25 09:43:21 No. Your second line is retarded. Its completely acceptable for even an open liberal society to fuck up violent enemies.
Forwyn Member	Fri May 25 10:19:30 "Accomplice has to have more legal meaning and weight than "was related to and lived with a convicted terrorist"." See, you keep doing this. You act like this was just a passive situation, that they accidentally wound up in terrorist camps, or were born married to them. No. They traveled around the world to home-build for terrorists, to give them aid and comfort after a day of slaughtering innocents. You continue to pretend that this doesn't make recruitment and retainment easier, and that because they don't have a rifle in their hands, that they are disconnected from the crimes of their lovers.
Aeros Member	Fri May 25 10:26:46 Actually it's perfectly in keeping with western ideals, if we consider the traditional concept of Love and Mercy over the more modern interpretations. When Christ says to love your enemies, it does not mean what you think it does. Love is a bad english translation of a more complicated concept that translates better to "understand the humanity of your enemies". When western people are called to love creation and all within it, you need to ask, is it an act of Love to allow evil to ride unchecked over gods pastures? It absolutely does not. When the Christians slaughtered the Muslims during the invasions they were well within keeping of defending their lands, as stopping the spread of evil was an act of Love as accurately understood. The meek shall inherit the earth is also a horrid translation, as a better way of putting it is to say "those who are capable of doing extreme violence but choose not too" fits better. We are not supposed to be harmless, and Christian traditions did not used to teach this. If called to do so, we must be able to. The restraint is in judicially applying the violence rather then doing so indiscriminantly. We have built our legal systems around these concepts. After all, every western country until very recently had the death penalty. As we have gotten progressively nicer, and kinder, more safe, these harder sanctions have been relegated to what we happily assume is a barbaric past. Along with other western concepts such as Just war justifying total war. We are not so far removed from those days as you think Seb. In a way, we have unilaterally surrendered the "nuclear weapons" of western ideology. Nobody else has given theirs up though. Every civilization but ours would happily commit religious or ethnic genocide if provoked sufficiently, and they would be happy to provide explanations for why it's a good thing. In the case if ISIS, there stated ideological aim was our destruction. To the last man, woman and child. We did not seek that of them before they did. It was they who chose to run across the fields of gods pasture, and as good and loving Shepard it is our duty to kill them for it.
Seb Member	Fri May 25 11:08:28 Forwyn: You make it sound like the fact they married means it is safe to assume they were involved materially organising terrorist attacks. There are a fuck ton of refugees (you know the ones you lot want to shoot at the border or whatever your solution is) who fled after thinking they were going to other countries, or were simply going to live in the caliphate, only to discover their husband was actually going to sign up to fight. Aeros: Divine right of kings is part of western thought. So that's another reason you are arguing that I'm required to kill you. You are right we are not far enough removed from that, but in the sense you are moving away from Liberal, humanist values that are what we mean by "western" here, all you are doing is emphasising your heresy and autocracy. You appear to share the same core beliefs that the terrorists have that we object to. What we object to is not "oh my god you believe in Allah" but rather their insistence that those who do not share their views have no rights, freedoms and can be killed. If you are materially no different in the views you are advocating, and you think that is the views, not actions, which are so dangerous - should you not simply shoot yourself to protect us all from the heresy you espouse?
Aeros Member	Fri May 25 11:10:52 Not quite. I am perfectly happy to let people believe whatever they want to believe. ISIS however chose to act on their belief we all needed to die. And therein lies the distinction. Incidentally there is also nothing wrong with divine right as a concept. It means even the most powerful are subject to the laws of God or nature and are ultimately answerable to them.
Seb Member	Fri May 25 11:59:54 Aeros: You aren't though, punishing action. If you were you would be able to point to terrorist actions they'd undertaken rather than arguing, as you strenuously have done so far, that it justified to kill them on the basis of guilt by association. Yes, and you are proposing to act on your beliefs, which are hertical to western democratic beliefs, you are arguing for your own death. You've turned fundamental liberties from rights into privileges conferred on people only at your whim. The only difference then between you and the islamists is the window dressing of what acts you permit and what you punish by death. There is a fuck load wrong with the idea that an absolute monarch acts with a right conferred on him by God. It means he is *only* answerable to God (not the law or parliament) which means in Anglican systems nobody, and in Catholic ones to the pope only.
Aeros Member	Fri May 25 15:34:19 I said there was some things good about divine right, I did not say everything was good about it. Quite aware, but not really sure where this comes into our dispute about how the laws that govern peace must necessarily govern war.
jergul large member	Fri May 25 16:03:06 Laws that govern war should be a hell of a lot more pragmatic than those that govern peace. You see this in Syria for example. Where everyone practices a catch and release principle for ISIS and other Islamist groups (boy are you people giving AQ a pass - the group behind 9-11). The Syrian regime just gave amnesty to several hundred islamists. These people have settled their status and are now law abiding citizens. The interesting part is the several hundred that had commited war crimes and could not qualify for amnesty. They were sent to Idlib, not imprisoned or detained, or sumarily executed. This is how you do reconciliation in practice.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun May 27 06:18:20 "According to the paper, at least ***40 women have been sentenced to death***, while it’s believed ***around 300 people*** in total with links to ISIS have so far been executed. ***More than 1000*** people have been placed in Baghdad jails after being identified as either members of the group or relatives of fighters. Most of the women are widowed and many are the only caregiver left for the small children born to terrorist dads. Last month, a court in Baghdad handed ***19*** Russian women ***life sentences*** for “joining and supporting” the terror group." So I am going to assume that if they give life sentence for membership and support, death sentence is reserved for worse things. 40 out of more than 1000. Seems more than reasonable in the aftermaths of a civil war in a country with the death penalty.
jergul large member	Sun May 27 06:34:56 Nimi Its not actually how reconciliation is done. The important thing is to get the kids and young adults back to school. But ISIS is a scapegoat so the far more numerous AQ associated people get a pass.
Seb Member	Sun May 27 10:32:25 Aeros: The thing you said was good about divine right was factually wrong though. Either you were saying he could be held to account (which he couldn't, being answerable to god alone), or you were saying his unaccountability is a good thing. Either is a pile of shite.
Paramount Member	Sun May 27 11:40:06 " War is when nice and legal methods of doing business fail. And whatever is needed to restore the peace is what needs to be done. Up to and including killing them all so God may know his own." etc etc ISIS is arguing the same thing as you are doing, Aeros. It's a bit shocking to see that you have become an extremist of the same caliber as ISIS.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon May 28 10:06:38 Jergul, I agree, but my point is that this isn’t the mass execution galore of innocent women as seb would have us believe. Reconcilition broadly in the ME, is not hapenning soon, first there is the business of secterian cleansing, peacefully, of those elements that can not be reconcilled. Then we shall see where this road leads to.
Seb Member	Mon May 28 10:35:10 Nim: Where did I say mass execution? Straw man arguments again.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue May 29 07:40:46 You didn't, I took the liberty of framing it in the language your posts have been oozing. You would have us believe that these women are victims of trafficking, the Iraqi court is uninterested in what they are guilty of. Which according to the (in your favor) biased article and the numbers of people caught, imprisoned and executed, is simply ludicrous.
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:45:25 Nim: You mean, you took the liberty that you have been roundly condemning when you claim I have done that for the best part of the year? Dishonest Nim.
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:47:33 "You would have us believe that these women are victims of trafficking" I would say that as the article presents it, ascertaining any of this seems to not be part of the process, and that far from cheering this on as most of the posters here appear to be doing, they probably ought to be thinking about those issues. "is simply ludicrous." I'm sorry, what exactly do you think numbers have to do with it here? Scale is something you brought in to the question.
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:52:21 "The proceedings had a sense of urgency, and so did the 10-minute hearings in Baghdad’s central criminal court" From the Gaurdian's article that is the source of the linked article. 10 minutes, to determined if a woman rounded up in the ruins of a town held by ISIS, was a member of the group. Which is a crime punishable with death or life sentence, irrespective of whether she actually did anything other than nominally be a member by virtue of her husband. Seems a little extreme no?
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:53:51 "In the same court a day earlier, an Iraqi woman had been cleared of all charges and released after successfully mounting a defence that her brother had forced her to join Isis. While some Iraqi women, and large numbers of men, have been sentenced to death for their roles in the terrorist group’s rampage, only a small number of foreign women have received any concession" Hmm, totally not a case of "lets kill the foreigners as an example because they have no constituency here".
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:55:04 "In the minds of Iraqis and the judiciary and the government, by virtue of the fact that you are foreign and chose to live in Isis territory there is a level of agency in what you did and more culpability," So it seems fair to say that considerations of trafficking and or other measures by which these women might have come to be in ISIS isn't really being explored.
Seb Member	Tue May 29 07:57:37 "The Baghdad courtroom was bustling with men who were shuffled into a dock in the centre of the room. A group of 12 were sentenced to death by hanging, then escorted back to cells. Next it was Zahraa Abdel Wahab Al Kaja’s turn. Just turned 17 years old, and originally from Tajikistan, she also cradled a baby, whom she had dressed in a hijab, and seemed disorientated. “I was brought to Syria about five years ago with my mum and dad,” she said. “They married me to a Turkish man. He was good to me. This is his child. We settled in Iraq. My father and husband died. I am now imprisoned with my mother and daughter. I want to go back home, even though my country is no good. I didn’t wear hijab back home. Isis is good, it taught me how to cover myself.” More women came and went: a Turk, a Russian, and two from Kyrgyzstan. In each case one of three judges asked several curt questions, then ordered the accused woman from the room. A prosecutor then made a short statement, and a defence lawyer read from a brief. Outside, one of the state-appointed defenders said he had not spoken with his client, and had only seen a summary of the investigation notes. Human Rights Watch said that, despite its urging over the past two years, there had been no sign of lawyers playing a more proactive role, or the judiciary seeking more substantive evidence for prosecutions. Justice instead depended heavily on instinct, an official said during a break. “I’ve worked here for 10 years and I can tell who’s innocent with one look in their eyes. I can tell you horror stories and I can share moments of magic.” Guards who bring the women from a nearby prison said most were" Yup, clearly a robust process.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue May 29 14:34:50 "You mean, you took the liberty that you have been roundly condemning when you claim I have done that for the best part of the year?" Not quite. We can all misconstrue each other, for of some us it is pathological and they are resistant to any correction. If you find me doing that, I shall be put to shame. I did go on and provide a summary. Did you disagree with it? Like I said, I have no reason to doubt their guilt than I do their male counterparts subjected to the same punishments.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue May 29 14:35:39 no *more* reason
Seb Member	Tue May 29 14:54:20 Nim: There is nothing in my posts that suggest my objection is of scale. It is an objection in principle. "Like I said, I have no reason to doubt their guilt" Really? You look at a report of people - some below the age of legal majority in most western countries - accompanied by children they clearly are the sole carers for (so clearly not certain to have been fighters), convicted in ten minutes, with inadequate representation; you consider the well documented patterns of coerced migration and trafficking into the country, being convicted apparently largely on the basis of simply being foreign an in the country. You look at all of that and think "yup, this is something I'm totally cool with, it would be crazy to think there's a systematic miscarriage of justice going on here".
Seb Member	Tue May 29 14:56:41 Dishonest Nim: I shall leave you to consider for yourself whether you lied on your summary. It can be difficult to construe. But by the standards you have attempted to hold me too, I think you need to consider whether you are lying.
jergul large member	Tue May 29 19:38:06 Nimi This is how you do reconciliation (in real time. The story is from today). "16,557 people have settled their legal status and have surrendered 4,017 weapons in the recently liberated area of Rastan in northern Homs, the Russian Centre for Reconciliation said on May 27. The area of Rastan was fully liberated by the Syrian Army and its allies on May 16 after a radical part of militants and their families had evacuated from the area under a surrender agreement with the Syrian government. The Russian Center added in the same statement that 66,717 people had returned their homes in the Eastern Ghouta subrub of Damascus due to improving humanitarian situation. The Eastern Ghouta region was fully liberated on April 14 after the Syrian Army had crushed the militants’ defense there and forced the vestiges of militant groups to accept a reconciliation or to withdraw."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed May 30 02:23:57 That the Iraqi judiciary in the wake of this civil war (or ever) isn't up to the standard you and I are used to, those are things I was aware of prior to this article of the Islamic State women getting executed. I promise you that I have seen many more men plead for their life in those court rooms that you have seen men and women combined. Given that there are many more men involved with Islamic State, it is also likely that many more innocent men were caught, killed and jailed, mistaken identity alone excludes a lot of women from the manhunts. That jihadis and soldiers dress as women, to escape, this is age old islamic tactic, since the days of the Iranian revolution. It is precisely because women are generally viewed as outside the direct war effort, they are spared and generally not suspects. Let that nuance you world a little, my good seb. So I provided a refined position. I care about these women as I care about their male counter parts. Yes in principle I am against the death penalty and we agree that the Iraqi judiciary isn't the best. Non of this has anything to do with "women" who btw, regularly and virtually across culture receive more lenient punishment for violent crimes than males do. Jergul Neat. I am aware of the local agreements and like I said I agree generically about "how you do reconciliation". But even these local agreements are hinged upon ethnic cleansing to some degree (sectarian), but broadly speaking, in Syria or the ME, there is no reconciliation in sight. Ethnic cleansing a la Yugoslavia, when everyone gets their own country you have peace.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed May 30 02:39:30 this is age old islamic tactic It is actually an age old tactic, not Islamic, it is universal. I was specifically thinking of all the men caught in full hijab and niqab. Very useful but the entire phenomena is indicative of the place of women in the hierarchy of guilt during wartime. Kill the men, take the women as your own, a war principle that goes back very far. So in that light, these women were probably guilty as sin. Most of us have a partly innate and partly conditioned reaction to women in distress. I believe in equality in the eyes of the law, I mean if anywhere it matters it is in front of the law, so I say fuck you feelz, I believe in equality. So whether the Iraqi judiciary is up to par, is one question and whether these women are being given an equal treatment another. I believe they are given a lenient treatment, for sure. That is I think more guilty women got away then men, because of the gender roles. Gender roles work out "great" for women in war time, they get raped, but they survive. Spend a childhood in an Islamic country (after a religious revolt not unlike the one in Iraq) and you can see the extent to which women partake in the "patriarchy". http://twitter.com/hillelneuer/status/770878785566674944 My mother used to spit when she saw these cunts.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed May 30 03:06:35 "I would say that as the article presents it, ascertaining any of this seems to not be part of the process, and that far from cheering this on as most of the posters here appear to be doing, they probably ought to be thinking about those issues." Well this, "most of the posters" thing, is your personal issue that has plagued every discussion we have had. Deal with it. "ascertaining any of this seems to not be part of the process" The article does not even mention trafficking, this is your own invention. It mentions that some of the women claim they were misled, not kidnapped and sold to IS.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed May 30 03:11:35 A more neutral articled, linked in the original article. http://www...kly-with-accused-women-of-isis In a small holding room in a Baghdad court, French citizen Djamila Boutoutao cradled her two-year-old daughter and begged for help. Boutoutao, 29, is accused of being a member of Islamic State. Whispering in her native tongue within earshot of other accused Isis members – all foreigners like her – she said life had become unbearable. “I’m going mad here,” said Boutoutao, a small bespectacled woman with a deadpan stare. “I’m facing a death sentence or life in prison. No one tells me anything, not the ambassador, not people in prison.” Guards moved closer as Boutoutao continued. So did her fellow accused – all from central Asia or Turkey, who had all lost husbands and, in some cases, children as the Islamic State collapsed in Iraq last year. “Don’t let them take my daughter away,” she pleaded. “I am willing to offer money if you can contact my parents. Please get me out of here.” With that, the short conversation was shut down and Boutoutao returned to a corner, waiting for the judge in the adjoining room to summon her. There were no French officials present, and nothing at all to connect her to her former life in Lille. If convicted of joining the terrorist group, she faces life in a central Baghdad jail, or death by hanging. All the 15 women in court last week had been widowed by the war that eventually ousted Isis from much of Iraq, killing tens of thousands of its members and replacing its promises of an Islamic utopia with a crushing defeat. The women here had in some cases willingly joined the group, travelling alone from Europe and central Asia, or with their partners, to what they believed to be a promised land. More than 40,000 foreigners from 110 countries are estimated to have travelled to Iraq and Syria to join the jihadist group. Of those, around 1,900 are believed to have been French citizens, and around 800 were British. Boutoutao arrived in Iraq in 2014, with her husband, Mohammed Nassereddine and two children. He was killed in Mosul in 2016 as was her son, Abdullah, one year later. She was captured by the Kurdish peshmerga in northern Iraq and eventually sent to Baghdad, where the fortified court in the centre of the capital has become a focal point of the post-Isis era. Up to 1,000 women accused of belonging to Isis were rounded up from the ruins of Iraq’s towns and cities and are now being held in Baghdad to face a reckoning from a society and government that remains deeply scarred by the past four years, with much of their anger directed at foreign fighters and their families. Up to 820 infants accompany the women, with some others yet to be born. Scorned and stateless: children of Isis fighters face an uncertain future Read more The proceedings had a sense of urgency, and so did the 10-minute hearings in Baghdad’s central criminal court that have summarily dispensed with the accused foreign women, sentencing more than 40 to death, and dozens more to life in prison since the so-called caliphate crumbled. Foreigners in particular, often carrying babies, are processed with an uncompromising efficiency rarely seen in other parts of Iraq’s judicial system. In mopping up the aftermath of Isis, the court system has taken on the role of bringing the country towards a closure. As Iraqis try to stitch their torn social fabric back together, a stark resentment remains towards the jihadists whose rampage took a toll on a national psyche that was yet to recover from sanctions, invasion and civil war. France and other European countries remain hostile to those of their citizens who are now facing Iraqi courts, insisting they should face local justice abroad. The French government has shown some leniency towards children orphaned by the fighting, but none towards adults who made decisions to join the group. Earlier this year, the defence minister Florence Parly said those who did make it back to France would be “held to account for their acts”. French officials have told their counterparts in the region, however, that those who failed to escape can expect no comfort. With Isis now all but ousted from Iraq’s lands, there is little talk of reconciliation. Asked what he would say to the leader of Isis, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi if he was put in front of him, Sheikh Qais al-Khazali, the leader of one of Iraq’s most feared Shia paramilitary groups, Asa’ib ahl al-Haq, said: “I would tell him he failed. He wasn’t good enough. He was nothing and he is beneath us all.” Mustafa Rashid, a car dealer in east Baghdad was similarly scathing about the foreign prisoners. “Be damned with them,” he said. “They deserve no mercy. The women too.” In the same court a day earlier, an Iraqi woman had been cleared of all charges and released after successfully mounting a defence that her brother had forced her to join Isis. While some Iraqi women, and large numbers of men, have been sentenced to death for their roles in the terrorist group’s rampage, only a small number of foreign women have received any concession “In the minds of Iraqis and the judiciary and the government, by virtue of the fact that you are foreign and chose to live in Isis territory there is a level of agency in what you did and more culpability,” said Belkis Wille, the senior researcher for Iraq for Human Rights Watch. “It is not the same in the case of Iraqi women, where very specific evidence is often lessening sentences. If you buy a plane ticket, cross a border and make your choices, you are far more exposed.” The Baghdad courtroom was bustling with men who were shuffled into a dock in the centre of the room. A group of 12 were sentenced to death by hanging, then escorted back to cells. Next it was Zahraa Abdel Wahab Al Kaja’s turn. Just turned 17 years old, and originally from Tajikistan, she also cradled a baby, whom she had dressed in a hijab, and seemed disorientated. “I was brought to Syria about five years ago with my mum and dad,” she said. “They married me to a Turkish man. He was good to me. This is his child. We settled in Iraq. My father and husband died. I am now imprisoned with my mother and daughter. I want to go back home, even though my country is no good. I didn’t wear hijab back home. Isis is good, it taught me how to cover myself.” More women came and went: a Turk, a Russian, and two from Kyrgyzstan. In each case one of three judges asked several curt questions, then ordered the accused woman from the room. A prosecutor then made a short statement, and a defence lawyer read from a brief. Outside, one of the state-appointed defenders said he had not spoken with his client, and had only seen a summary of the investigation notes. Human Rights Watch said that, despite its urging over the past two years, there had been no sign of lawyers playing a more proactive role, or the judiciary seeking more substantive evidence for prosecutions. Justice instead depended heavily on instinct, an official said during a break. “I’ve worked here for 10 years and I can tell who’s innocent with one look in their eyes. I can tell you horror stories and I can share moments of magic.” Guards who bring the women from a nearby prison said most were unrepentant. “An Isis prisoner once asked me for something which I couldn’t provide and she called me an infidel.” What to do with the children is a more vexing question for Iraqi authorities. Some infants chewed on apples while their mothers waited for their hearings. Others were passed around the women who each took turns at calming them. “They will grow up to be just like [their mothers],” said one of the guards. “No, it’s a sin to say that,” said another. “All children are innocent.” “Maybe,” came the reply. “But let’s finish with this quickly. There are still so many of them.”
Seb Member	Wed May 30 04:16:53 Nim: "That the Iraqi judiciary in the wake of this civil war (or ever) isn't up to the standard you and I are used to, those are things I was aware of prior to this article of the Islamic State women getting executed." I don't get why you are trying to deflect this to be about the standards of the court so much here. You after all, are endorsing it. "And moms, terrorist moms as well." "Non that fit the scope of this thread or the women in the article." etc. You purport to know (or have faith in these proceedings to determine) that all of these women are clearly terrorists and are not, e.g. trafficking victims brought to a country against their will and deemed "member" of ISIS purely on the basis of living there. Now, all of a sudden, you are telling me these courts are not up to your standards? I'm confused. Either you think this is a morally and legally acceptable approach, or not. Which is it then? "
jergul large member	Wed May 30 06:01:56 Nimi Ethnic cleansing is not a prerequisite for reconciliation.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: