Utopia Talk / Politics / Russia confirmed to have shot down 777

Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 06:13:04 http://kom...ight-mh17-05-24-2018-103438256 An international team of investigators said Thursday that detailed analysis of video images and photos has unequivocally established that the Buk missile that brought down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine nearly four years ago came from a Russia-based military unit, the clearest link yet published by the team to the involvement of Russian military in the deadly missile strike.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 06:27:22 Reparations?
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 06:38:11 240 westerners at 5 million per, doubled for russias dishonesty and african-like behaviour... but decreased a little since the airline was also at fault... 1.5 billion sounds about right to fine russia.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 07:41:05 Yep, and that should bankrupt them. Hopefully.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 08:12:08 Sammy You forgot the Ukraine. It should have closed the airspace for civilian traffic long before the incident occured. The conclusion seems credible. An isolated buk launcher scooted across the border, fucked up, then scooted back. The launcher does have limited independent firing capability sufficient to fuck up in that order of magnitude. The trail of responsibility would go way up. Perhaps even to colonel level. Though Ukraine should have been made to account for its BUK missiles (the missiles do have serial numbers and are trackable) simply to elliminate it as an alternative source HR I suggest compensation equal to what the US paid when it shot down that civilian Iranian aircraft, or perhaps what the Ukraine paid when it shot down that Russian civilian airliner. Shit happens.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 08:21:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
jergul large member	Thu May 24 08:22:45 Turns out the awards are in the 200k range.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu May 24 08:23:19 Perhaps, but Russia is a SuperPower wannabe. They should set their bar at a great deal higher standard. As for the Iranian airliner, they are a terrorist country and Ukraine is, in essence, at war with Russia. You might say that Russia gets a bye because they are at war with Ukraine. Only one problem with that, Russia is the invader. They do not get a bye.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 09:15:27 HR Wow. I wonder how much the world will improve as you generation passes.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 09:17:33 http://www...nsusatlas/pdf/10_Education.pdf Answer: By a lot. Virtually the only thing your cadre gets right is going to the ballot box.
Seb Member	Thu May 24 09:23:15 I wonder if jergul will ever admit to having made a wrong call.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu May 24 09:41:06 No Russian missile system ever crossed into Ukraine: MoD rejects Dutch MH17 claims Published time: 24 May, 2018 14:07 Edited time: 24 May, 2018 14:15 The Russian Defense Ministry has rejected new claims that flight MH17 over Ukraine was downed by a missile from a Russian unit, urging the Dutch-led probe to focus on studying hard facts instead of social media images. “Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,” the defense ministry said in statement. The Russian military expressed concern over “the determination of the Dutch-led investigation to justifying its conclusions by solely using images from social networks that have been expertly altered with computer graphic editing tools.” The ministry pointed out that the images used in the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) press conference on Thursday were provided by the Ukrainian special services and had been previously displayed by the infamous British online investigative activist group, Bellingcat. The Dutch-led probe announced that the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in July 2014 came from a Russian military Buk system that crossed into Ukraine and then returned to its base in western Russia. The JIT essentially just repeated the conclusion made by Bellingcat a year ago. http://www.rt.com/news/427669-mh17-russia-ukraine-dutch/
jergul large member	Thu May 24 09:41:25 Seb Sure. Once it is firmly established that the call I made was actually wrong. I would really like to have seen an Ukrainian missile inventory being made. Investigation evidence is underwhelming and discounted both hard data and witness testimony, while emphasising obviously flawed evidence (well duh, of course rebels celebrated a plane they thought was Ukrainian military being shot down. It does in no way prove who shot it down). The only thing we know for sure (and have always known) is that a rogue buk launcher acted independently and rather unprofessionally. Both Russia and Ukraine had launchers in the vincinity that could have disconnected from their control batteries. Extreme unprofessionality combined with Ukrainian SAMs having shot down a civilian aircraft earlier suggested an Ukrainian launcher. But it is also credible a launcher was informally borrowed and it scooted back and forth across the border as the investigation described. For Russian involvement: See declaration of a no-fly sone and activation of all manner of air defense and aerial patrols to support it. Citing d2p but of course. Detaching a single launcher is not a policy level decision.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 09:46:54 Ukraine should have closed the area to civic air travel Airlines should have avoided the area anyway High altitude batteries should not have been used disconnected from their command and control structure. 200k+ per person settlement should be part of an ending sanction package.
Paramount Member	Thu May 24 10:54:03 ”Ukraine should have closed the area to civic air travel ” Indeed. One might believe that Ukraine is using their civilians as human shields otherwise.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu May 24 11:02:39 "That's a horrible thing that happened, it's disgusting and disgraceful but Putin and Russia say they didn't do it, the other side said they did, no one really knows who did it, probably Putin knows who did it. Possibly it was Russia but they are totally denying it." "They say it wasn't them. It may have been their weapon, but they didn't use it, they didn't fire it, they even said the other side fired it to blame them. I mean to be honest with you, you'll probably never know for sure." ~Putin's puppet (said back at the time) ...Trump rushed to defend Russia on every issue
jergul large member	Thu May 24 11:12:01 To be clear: The balance of probability leads me to conclude Russia has liability.
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 11:32:24 I guess thats as close as we will get to jergul admitting he was wrong.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 11:39:29 Sammy I might be wrong about 12.5 by 2020. This is not a case of me being right or wrong as it is simply a question of what was most likely given the current evidence.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 11:50:27 *Sammy wants to role a die* Jergul:"You will probably roll a 1, 2, 3, or 4" *Sammy rolls a 5* Sammy:"Jergul was wrong!" Jergul:"Uhm, not so much"
jergul large member	Thu May 24 11:57:26 "Not a single anti-aircraft missile system of the Russian Armed Forces has ever crossed the Russian-Ukrainian border,” the defense ministry said in statement" Funny how the military seldom lies, but does not always tell the truth. No one claimed a single anti aircraft system entered Ukraine. A launcher is a mere fraction of a system.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu May 24 11:58:54 "given the current evidence." lol just like the skripals? open and shut case!
jergul large member	Thu May 24 12:29:32 ST Slamdunk even! I think Russia should pony up 70 million in one face-saving way or another as part of a sanction reduction deal.
Sam Adams Member	Thu May 24 12:37:26 Could have saved so much face by admitting the incident in the first place, instead of being so dishonorable about it.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 12:55:11 Sammy You should be comparing it with a small scale iran-contra deal. Colonel Muchkayev in the role of Oliver North. The general idea that rebels should be discretely aided and abetted as policy, the actual details left to local discretion. Lending a launcher was likely a bit beyond the pale. Particularly as that went sour. I think it took Putin's a while to figure out what probably happened and still think its possible Ukraine shot the plane down. I don't think it is trying to find out for sure if its missile was used.
jergul large member	Thu May 24 12:58:21 Putin's regime* And what is this "saving face from great dishonour" shpil (I formally checked the correct yddish spelling)?
jergul large member	Thu May 24 13:06:26 http://www...dish-program/program-logistics 1400 USD for a month? Oh the fun I would have with Asgard if I did that. Cheapest US vacation evah.
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