Utopia Talk - Politics - Trump can pardon himself!

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Utopia Talk / Politics / Trump can pardon himself!

Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist Sun Jun 03 12:57:38
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44348991

Or so Rudy says. I hope America isnt that dumb though

obaminated
Member Sun Jun 03 13:44:20
It has been established back in the nixon years the president has the power to pardon himself.

tumbleweed
the wanderer Sun Jun 03 13:53:20
Giuliani has also admitted their strategy is to smear the investigation as winning public opinion wins over those who would vote on impeachment which is their only concern

and Giuliani said: "For every one of these things he did, we can write out five reasons why he did it. If four of them are completely innocent and one of them is your assumption that it’s a guilty motive, which [Trump] would deny, you can’t possibly prosecute him" or impeach

...shows he really cares about being honest with the American people

hood
Member Sun Jun 03 14:37:52
No it hasn't.

http://www...1/op-olc-supp-v001-p0370_0.pdf

mexicantardnado
Member Sun Jun 03 20:07:10
duuuuuur

Aeros
Member Mon Jun 04 00:30:22
The President is not subject to arrest or impeachment. Citizen Trump is.

The US has yet to hash out fully just what the President is in the eyes of the law, as we have very rarely had situations where a President might be in gross breach.

The general consensus though is The President cannot be arreated by any arresting authority, as they work for him. He cannot be investigated as the investigators also work for him. The courts cannot compel him as he is a coequal governing branch.

The man that happens to be President on the other hand is reachable. What is required is for Congress to strip him of his rank. After that happens, anything he did while President is fair game.

obaminated
Member Mon Jun 04 01:12:36
Im gonna side with the guy who always predicts wars that never happen.

hood
Member Mon Jun 04 07:20:50
Ignore Aeros, he's a dumbass. Don't ignore Nixon's AG who literally looked into the question and wrote a memo on it.

murder
Member Mon Jun 04 14:35:57

"The general consensus though is The President cannot be arreated by any arresting authority, as they work for him."

No they don't work FOR him.

"The courts cannot compel him as he is a coequal governing branch."

That happens all the time. Every freaking day he's subject to judicial orders. Remember the Muslim ban?

Clinton was forced to testify in a frivolous lawsuit.

American Democrat
Member Mon Jun 04 15:11:56
"It has been established back in the nixon years the president has the power to pardon himself."

False.

http://thi...t-pardon-himself-f70228c8b9ef/

mexicantardnado
Member Mon Jun 04 15:17:05
Duuuuuur my alternative fact durrrr history said he could duuur that's why durrrr nixon didn't resign durrrrr

Hot Rod
Revved Up Mon Jun 04 17:53:24

Why shouldn't it be smeared, it is nothing more than a witch hunt.

Nixon was smart, he resigned and had Ford pardon him.

American Democrat
Member Mon Jun 04 17:58:15
So the topic of national security is a witch hunt? Interesting...

Rugian
Member Mon Jun 04 18:00:07
Okay McCarthy.

American Democrat
Member Mon Jun 04 18:18:54
How so? Do you not believe that agents or any person that is associated with Russia or foreign influence that acquires those to push their agenda which compromises the integrity and national security? Are you stating such matters should not be investigated or thwarted?

As well as prevention of cyber attacks to our infrastructure that impairs as well attempt to damage to our institution of elections; as one example, as well as our defenses which leaves us vulnerable?

So McCarthy? Are you ignoring the 21 individuals or companies that have been criminal charged where some of those have worked a deal to assist the investigation. Hard to argue against that this isn't an issue of national security.

What about Trump and his hesitation to go after Russian and his hesitance of signing sanctions against this that was virtually unilaterally passed?

What about Trump's complaint about the "witch hunt" while ignoring his own past comments about those who didn't do anything wrong have nothing to worry about. But daily calls for the end of the investigation that is actually focusing more on national security versus more of him of "obstructing justice" which is only a minor component.

If Trump claims he didn't do anything wrong, he would not attempt to stifle the investigation in the satellite fashion he has been doing. In fact, he would or should be silent, let it complete.

But no, he is too worried about how he can pardon himself...which possibly infers he fucked up and did something wrong.

But sure, it has to be McCarthy.

kargen
Member Mon Jun 04 18:24:47
Why would he need to? If he is still President then Pence will still be VP and he can pardon President Trump.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Mon Jun 04 18:40:01

ad, the reason that Trump insists that he did nothing wrong is that he did absolutely nothing wrong.

Haven't you been a liberal long enough yet to know that they are the Kings and Queens of slime and vicious dirty tricks?

murder
Member Mon Jun 04 19:00:30

"Why would he need to? If he is still President then Pence will still be VP and he can pardon President Trump."

What I find amusing is that Trump and his gang are spending all this energy discrediting the rule of law ... which is the only thing that would keep the next President from revoking his pardons and jailing the entire lot of them.

American Democrat
Member Mon Jun 04 19:07:55
"ad, the reason that Trump insists that he did nothing wrong is that he did absolutely nothing wrong. "

Then he needs to abide by his on conviction and shut up. He has nothing to worry about then and let the investigation continue and go after the ones that are a threat to national security. Unless you don't believe in that? Apparently you do not.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Mon Jun 04 19:09:31

You are not listening.

Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top. He is steadfast behind the rank and file.

kargen
Member Mon Jun 04 19:14:46
A president can only revoke a pardon if it hasn't been delivered. Once the pardon is enacted it is like the crimes didn't happen as far as the law is concerned.
Only caveat has to do with impeachment and I'm not sure what applies there.

murder
Member Mon Jun 04 19:57:37

"A president can only revoke a pardon if it hasn't been delivered. Once the pardon is enacted it is like the crimes didn't happen as far as the law is concerned."

Sure ... where the rule of law exists.

hood
Member Mon Jun 04 20:09:39
"Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top."

You drank the suicide koolaid. Why the fuck haven't you died yet? Please right this travesty and kill yourself.

kargen
Member Mon Jun 04 22:11:00
You speak of rule of law and that is fine when you are getting around the fuzzy edges.

There is nothing that would allow a president to revoke a previous pardon short of constitutional amendment. There is no rule of law to get around. There simply isn't a way to do it. The president doesn't have the power.

tumbleweed
the wanderer Mon Jun 04 22:21:41
"Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top."

Is that his loyal supporter and Republican Sessions who he appointed, or Republican Rosenstein who he appointed, or Republican Wray who he appointed? or highly respected Republican Mueller, whom all were thrilled with when appointed?

why is this illegal and unconstitutional investigation continuing with all these Trump appointees and a republican congress?

Seb
Member Tue Jun 05 02:05:49
A person absolves of punishment, not guilt.

Legally, someone accepting a pardon must admit guilt.

If Trump pardoned himself, difficult to see how congress couldn't impeach.

Hahaha. Of course it's really easy to see how the corrupt cesspit of US politics wouldn't impeach, despite a transparent confession. I meant a notional congress of reasonable people.

Seb
Member Tue Jun 05 04:10:40
Kargen:

No, it is not as though the crimes didn't happen from a legal perspective.

A pardon means that the state forgives you for a crime, and removes punishment.

But this requires an acceptance that you did commit the crime (or there is nothing to forgive). Only the judiciary can quash a conviction.

I suspect you could, and in some cases would, be more exposed to civil claims if you accept a pardon.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_pardons_in_the_United_States

According to Associate Justice Joseph McKenna, writing the majority opinion in the U.S. Supreme Court case Burdick v. United States, a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."[10]

Seb
Member Tue Jun 05 04:12:19
Presumably a future president could offer a pardon for anyone who murders Trump?

Pardons are ridiculous.

Seb
Member Tue Jun 05 04:21:32
I appreciate the pint you are making, you can't rescind the pardonafter it's been accepted, as the "sentence" has been carried out.

murder
Member Tue Jun 05 11:55:23

"There is nothing that would allow a president to revoke a previous pardon short of constitutional amendment. There is no rule of law to get around. There simply isn't a way to do it. The president doesn't have the power."

Yeah well the President doesn't have the power to ignore subpoena's or to murder the Director of the FBI with impunity either ... but Trump and his team are asserting that he does.

He's either not thinking this all the way through, or he's not planning on relinquishing power.

jergul
large member Tue Jun 05 12:25:32
Im going with not thinking this all the way trough and having no plan on relinquishing power (which is a form of thinking things through).

kargen
Member Tue Jun 05 16:13:36
Seb I worded it poorly so I grabbed a definition from USLegal.

"Effect of full pardon is that in the eyes of the law the offender is as innocent as if he had never committed the offense. It removes any disqualifications or punitive effect stemming from conviction."

Murder the president can't ignore a subpoena but he can decline and there is precedent for this. He can also make clear that certain questions and topics are off the table if he does decide to comply. He can also to some extent set the time and place. And badmouthing the FBI leadership is perfectly legal and something he can do. It isn't particularly smart for him to be doing it but there is nothing in the laws that says a president can't do or say something stupid.

murder
Member Tue Jun 05 16:30:28
There's also nothing that says that pardon's can't be revoked.

hood
Member Tue Jun 05 16:43:52
"And badmouthing the FBI leadership is perfectly legal and something he can do."

Depends on how one interprets obstruction of justice.

Cthulhu
Tentacle Rapist Tue Jun 05 16:49:32
Pardons are ridiculous.'

Depends on how they are implemented. In some countries, pardons merely remove a criminal record after the person has served their time and gone a certain period with no legal problems.

kargen
Member Tue Jun 05 20:21:02
murder actually there is something that says a pardon can't be revoked. In fact President Bush tried to revoke one of his own pardons and it was ruled since the pardon was delivered he could not.

and no hood it doesn't depend on how one interprets obstruction of justice. The president is free to express his opinions of the FBI just as anybody else is. He can shout out that the FBI is a bunch of bungling fools all he wants. He can't try to impede an investigation but he can call the investigation a witch hunt all he wants.

Again probably not a smart decision but hey it is his right to do stupid things.

show deleted posts

Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Sun Jun 03 12:57:38 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44348991 Or so Rudy says. I hope America isnt that dumb though
obaminated Member	Sun Jun 03 13:44:20 It has been established back in the nixon years the president has the power to pardon himself.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jun 03 13:53:20 Giuliani has also admitted their strategy is to smear the investigation as winning public opinion wins over those who would vote on impeachment which is their only concern and Giuliani said: "For every one of these things he did, we can write out five reasons why he did it. If four of them are completely innocent and one of them is your assumption that it’s a guilty motive, which [Trump] would deny, you can’t possibly prosecute him" or impeach ...shows he really cares about being honest with the American people
hood Member	Sun Jun 03 14:37:52 No it hasn't. http://www...1/op-olc-supp-v001-p0370_0.pdf
mexicantardnado Member	Sun Jun 03 20:07:10 duuuuuur
Aeros Member	Mon Jun 04 00:30:22 The President is not subject to arrest or impeachment. Citizen Trump is. The US has yet to hash out fully just what the President is in the eyes of the law, as we have very rarely had situations where a President might be in gross breach. The general consensus though is The President cannot be arreated by any arresting authority, as they work for him. He cannot be investigated as the investigators also work for him. The courts cannot compel him as he is a coequal governing branch. The man that happens to be President on the other hand is reachable. What is required is for Congress to strip him of his rank. After that happens, anything he did while President is fair game.
obaminated Member	Mon Jun 04 01:12:36 Im gonna side with the guy who always predicts wars that never happen.
hood Member	Mon Jun 04 07:20:50 Ignore Aeros, he's a dumbass. Don't ignore Nixon's AG who literally looked into the question and wrote a memo on it.
murder Member	Mon Jun 04 14:35:57 "The general consensus though is The President cannot be arreated by any arresting authority, as they work for him." No they don't work FOR him. "The courts cannot compel him as he is a coequal governing branch." That happens all the time. Every freaking day he's subject to judicial orders. Remember the Muslim ban? Clinton was forced to testify in a frivolous lawsuit.
American Democrat Member	Mon Jun 04 15:11:56 "It has been established back in the nixon years the president has the power to pardon himself." False. http://thi...t-pardon-himself-f70228c8b9ef/
mexicantardnado Member	Mon Jun 04 15:17:05 Duuuuuur my alternative fact durrrr history said he could duuur that's why durrrr nixon didn't resign durrrrr
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Jun 04 17:53:24 Why shouldn't it be smeared, it is nothing more than a witch hunt. Nixon was smart, he resigned and had Ford pardon him.
American Democrat Member	Mon Jun 04 17:58:15 So the topic of national security is a witch hunt? Interesting...
Rugian Member	Mon Jun 04 18:00:07 Okay McCarthy.
American Democrat Member	Mon Jun 04 18:18:54 How so? Do you not believe that agents or any person that is associated with Russia or foreign influence that acquires those to push their agenda which compromises the integrity and national security? Are you stating such matters should not be investigated or thwarted? As well as prevention of cyber attacks to our infrastructure that impairs as well attempt to damage to our institution of elections; as one example, as well as our defenses which leaves us vulnerable? So McCarthy? Are you ignoring the 21 individuals or companies that have been criminal charged where some of those have worked a deal to assist the investigation. Hard to argue against that this isn't an issue of national security. What about Trump and his hesitation to go after Russian and his hesitance of signing sanctions against this that was virtually unilaterally passed? What about Trump's complaint about the "witch hunt" while ignoring his own past comments about those who didn't do anything wrong have nothing to worry about. But daily calls for the end of the investigation that is actually focusing more on national security versus more of him of "obstructing justice" which is only a minor component. If Trump claims he didn't do anything wrong, he would not attempt to stifle the investigation in the satellite fashion he has been doing. In fact, he would or should be silent, let it complete. But no, he is too worried about how he can pardon himself...which possibly infers he fucked up and did something wrong. But sure, it has to be McCarthy.
kargen Member	Mon Jun 04 18:24:47 Why would he need to? If he is still President then Pence will still be VP and he can pardon President Trump.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Jun 04 18:40:01 ad, the reason that Trump insists that he did nothing wrong is that he did absolutely nothing wrong. Haven't you been a liberal long enough yet to know that they are the Kings and Queens of slime and vicious dirty tricks?
murder Member	Mon Jun 04 19:00:30 "Why would he need to? If he is still President then Pence will still be VP and he can pardon President Trump." What I find amusing is that Trump and his gang are spending all this energy discrediting the rule of law ... which is the only thing that would keep the next President from revoking his pardons and jailing the entire lot of them.
American Democrat Member	Mon Jun 04 19:07:55 "ad, the reason that Trump insists that he did nothing wrong is that he did absolutely nothing wrong. " Then he needs to abide by his on conviction and shut up. He has nothing to worry about then and let the investigation continue and go after the ones that are a threat to national security. Unless you don't believe in that? Apparently you do not.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Jun 04 19:09:31 You are not listening. Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top. He is steadfast behind the rank and file.
kargen Member	Mon Jun 04 19:14:46 A president can only revoke a pardon if it hasn't been delivered. Once the pardon is enacted it is like the crimes didn't happen as far as the law is concerned. Only caveat has to do with impeachment and I'm not sure what applies there.
murder Member	Mon Jun 04 19:57:37 "A president can only revoke a pardon if it hasn't been delivered. Once the pardon is enacted it is like the crimes didn't happen as far as the law is concerned." Sure ... where the rule of law exists.
hood Member	Mon Jun 04 20:09:39 "Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top." You drank the suicide koolaid. Why the fuck haven't you died yet? Please right this travesty and kill yourself.
kargen Member	Mon Jun 04 22:11:00 You speak of rule of law and that is fine when you are getting around the fuzzy edges. There is nothing that would allow a president to revoke a previous pardon short of constitutional amendment. There is no rule of law to get around. There simply isn't a way to do it. The president doesn't have the power.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Jun 04 22:21:41 "Trump is only discrediting the bad apples at the top." Is that his loyal supporter and Republican Sessions who he appointed, or Republican Rosenstein who he appointed, or Republican Wray who he appointed? or highly respected Republican Mueller, whom all were thrilled with when appointed? why is this illegal and unconstitutional investigation continuing with all these Trump appointees and a republican congress?
Seb Member	Tue Jun 05 02:05:49 A person absolves of punishment, not guilt. Legally, someone accepting a pardon must admit guilt. If Trump pardoned himself, difficult to see how congress couldn't impeach. Hahaha. Of course it's really easy to see how the corrupt cesspit of US politics wouldn't impeach, despite a transparent confession. I meant a notional congress of reasonable people.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 05 04:10:40 Kargen: No, it is not as though the crimes didn't happen from a legal perspective. A pardon means that the state forgives you for a crime, and removes punishment. But this requires an acceptance that you did commit the crime (or there is nothing to forgive). Only the judiciary can quash a conviction. I suspect you could, and in some cases would, be more exposed to civil claims if you accept a pardon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_pardons_in_the_United_States According to Associate Justice Joseph McKenna, writing the majority opinion in the U.S. Supreme Court case Burdick v. United States, a pardon "carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it."[10]
Seb Member	Tue Jun 05 04:12:19 Presumably a future president could offer a pardon for anyone who murders Trump? Pardons are ridiculous.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 05 04:21:32 I appreciate the pint you are making, you can't rescind the pardonafter it's been accepted, as the "sentence" has been carried out.
murder Member	Tue Jun 05 11:55:23 "There is nothing that would allow a president to revoke a previous pardon short of constitutional amendment. There is no rule of law to get around. There simply isn't a way to do it. The president doesn't have the power." Yeah well the President doesn't have the power to ignore subpoena's or to murder the Director of the FBI with impunity either ... but Trump and his team are asserting that he does. He's either not thinking this all the way through, or he's not planning on relinquishing power.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 05 12:25:32 Im going with not thinking this all the way trough and having no plan on relinquishing power (which is a form of thinking things through).
kargen Member	Tue Jun 05 16:13:36 Seb I worded it poorly so I grabbed a definition from USLegal. "Effect of full pardon is that in the eyes of the law the offender is as innocent as if he had never committed the offense. It removes any disqualifications or punitive effect stemming from conviction." Murder the president can't ignore a subpoena but he can decline and there is precedent for this. He can also make clear that certain questions and topics are off the table if he does decide to comply. He can also to some extent set the time and place. And badmouthing the FBI leadership is perfectly legal and something he can do. It isn't particularly smart for him to be doing it but there is nothing in the laws that says a president can't do or say something stupid.
murder Member	Tue Jun 05 16:30:28 There's also nothing that says that pardon's can't be revoked.
hood Member	Tue Jun 05 16:43:52 "And badmouthing the FBI leadership is perfectly legal and something he can do." Depends on how one interprets obstruction of justice.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Tue Jun 05 16:49:32 Pardons are ridiculous.' Depends on how they are implemented. In some countries, pardons merely remove a criminal record after the person has served their time and gone a certain period with no legal problems.
kargen Member	Tue Jun 05 20:21:02 murder actually there is something that says a pardon can't be revoked. In fact President Bush tried to revoke one of his own pardons and it was ruled since the pardon was delivered he could not. and no hood it doesn't depend on how one interprets obstruction of justice. The president is free to express his opinions of the FBI just as anybody else is. He can shout out that the FBI is a bunch of bungling fools all he wants. He can't try to impede an investigation but he can call the investigation a witch hunt all he wants. Again probably not a smart decision but hey it is his right to do stupid things.
	show deleted posts

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