Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Fri Jun 22 04:34:53 2018

Utopia Talk / Politics / Giuliani strikes again
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Jun 06 19:06:02
so in an interview in Israel, the piece of shit's piece of shit said:

- the Mueller team is trying to frame Trump

- Stormy not classy enough to believe that Trump had sex with her

- “Kim Jong Un got back on his hands and knees and begged for it, which is exactly the position you want to put him in”
(about getting summit back on track, not Trump sex)


so honest & helpful
murder
Member
Wed Jun 06 19:55:45

Just one question if I may ... wtf is Trump's personal attorney doing at a conference in Israel?

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Wed Jun 06 20:37:50

Damage Control?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Jun 06 22:05:26
perhaps he was picking up a bag of cash in exchange for Trumps gifts to Israel that were only harmful to us... then he decided to falsely smear our Justice Dept and try to blowup the NK summit in his ongoing quest to complete destroy his reputation

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Wed Jun 06 22:17:31

Or maybe you are stark raving bonkers.

CrownRoyal
Member
Wed Jun 06 23:29:26
Thrice married cousin fucker opines on class now.
kargen
Member
Thu Jun 07 03:44:27
What gifts?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Jun 07 10:27:14
the embassy move which had us almost unanimously rebuked in the UN with no benefit to us

and leaving the Iran deal, again annoying allies & damaging our credibility, and using the seemingly bullshit Netanyahu powerpoint as rationale
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jun 07 12:54:28
"Stormy not classy enough to believe that Trump had sex with her "


speaking of classy ladies and Rudy Giuliani

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBKu9OJ8Ltk
kargen
Member
Thu Jun 07 21:21:23
It was stupid that the embassy wasn't moved sooner. Congress voted to move the embassy in 1995. The Israeli government is in Jerusalem and most our ambassadors were there staying in hotels in Jerusalem. All the business was being conducted in Jerusalem. Israel has said their capital is Jerusalem. It isn't our place nor any other countries place to choose Israels capital for them. And fuck the U.N. they should be supportive of the move.

jergul
large member
Fri Jun 08 03:35:12
Kargen
You mean Al-Qud, surely?
murder
Member
Fri Jun 08 10:43:38

Giuliani said that Melania believed her husband that the affair never happened.

Melania's spokesperson: “I don't believe Mrs. Trump has ever discussed her thoughts on anything with Mr. Giuliani.”

lol :o)



kargen
Member
Fri Jun 08 12:27:47
jergul you can call it what you want but the fact remains Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and that is where the embassy belongs.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 08:12:39
You may want to read up on the matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Jerusalem
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 08:16:54
The only way to consolidate your perspective with international norms would be to adhere to a 1-state solution.

Its probably the best way forward anyway. Accept the realities on the ground with Israeli sovereignity over the west bank and gaza.

Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 08:34:54
jergul,

It's outright quaint for you to be invoking international norms.

We don't even need to consider the fact that Israel will never, ever be compelled to adhere to such norms, what with the standards themselves becoming increasingly obsolete in the 21st century world order. If said norms still persisted, your boy Assad would by now be drinking poison in front of an international tribunal while a new, Western-backed Syrian government would be canceling the Tartus lease. Bottom line is, the standards no longer apply in any meaningful form.

East Jerusalem belongs to Israel, without having been annexed by Israel. Ex factis jus oritur and all that.

The Palestinians effectively forfeited their right to an independent state when Arafat shat all over the Camp David summit. The West Bank is now way too overrun with Jewish settlements and military checkpoints to ever function as a cohesive state, and the Gaza Strip is incapable of serving as anything more than an outsize ghetto. The Palestinian cause in Israel is dead and we need to acknowledge that.

The best way forward in the Israel-Palestine conflict would be for Israel to offer generous subsidies for any Palestinians who wish to emigrate from the West Bank and Gaza and permanently forfeit any property or residency rights in the process. Either that or a compulsory mass resettlement of the Palestinians to another country (I believe Syria next door has some areas in major need of repopulation - win/win for everyone involved).
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 08:47:15
Ruggy
You mean the Israeli civil war when citing the Israel-Palistinian conflict I trust.

While self-determination is important, I think it vital now to focus on the lack of universal sufferage.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 08:53:27
The absolute fundament of international law is the sanctity of the nation-state and its monopoly on managing its internal affairs.

So, no. Citing crimes commited by heads of state (the US would always win that btw) does not invalidate the westphalian system.

The mistake being made here is not recognizing that the Palistinian-Israeli issue is in fact an internal Israeli affair.

jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 08:55:57
The correct way forward would be no military support to either parties in the internal civil war and to sanction individuals and institutions for international crimes that have been proven.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 08:56:42
jergul,

We are both adults here, we need to man up and acknowledge that the Palestinian people (who after all are an existential threat to the Jewish state) will never be integrated into Israel.

It doesn't matter if a bunch of foreign governments and agitated college students want it, it's just not going to happen.

At this point, the two-state solution is dead, and the one-state solution is a wild fantasy that is realizable only in the minds of those who don't recognize that Israel is the party calling the shots. The only long-term solution is a mass exodus of the Palestinian people to other areas of the Arab world, after which their erstwhile territories can finally be annexed by Israel.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:03:25
Ruggy
It is a 1-state solution now with all areas defacto annexed by Israel.

The only existential threat Palestinians represent is to the outlandish idea that a Jewish State can exist in areas populated by non-jews (see the troubles "white states" got into in Southern Africa).

Self-determination is of course an option, but that too is a matter determined internally in Israel.

The main problem is not leaving Israel alone. Foreign funding of all kinds is blocking migration flows and fueling the conflict.

Drop the non humanitarian aid and see the population plummet be millions without a refugee crisis and people with dual citizenships resolve most of the irregularities we see with their feet.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:04:33
"The correct way forward would be no military support to either parties in the internal civil war and to sanction individuals and institutions for international crimes that have been proven."

I think attitudes of this are perfectly emblematic of the detachment from reality that supporters of the Palestinian cause consistently demonstrates.

This, again, is never going to happen. I know it, and you should know it. Whether you consider it right or not is irrelevant, the fact is that something like this is nothing more than a pipe dream.

What the pro-Palestinian faction needs to do is come to terms with the reality of their situation, and move forward from there. Two-state and one-state solutions are both gone, so alternatives must be pursued instead.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:05:14
Drop the non humanitarian aid and see the population plummet by millions without a refugee crisis and by people with dual citizenships resolving most of the irregularities we see with their feet.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:06:18
jergul,

Good luck with that. Again, you need to acknowledge the reality of the situation, rather than work in hypothetical ideals.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:06:29
Ruggy
It is a 1-state solution now. An apartheid state at war with itself for natural reasons.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:07:35
One-state implies integration, which is not present and will never be implemented.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:08:40
The status quo will persist of course for as long as your currency value allows it to persist.

For years, certainly.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:09:05
One-state at war with itself in no way implies integration.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:09:51
Security technology is only improving with each passing year, and Israel is a major investor in the same. Israel can maintain the current security regime within the West Bank and Gaza forever if it so wishes.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:10:31
Jergul: It is a 1-state solution now. An apartheid state at war with itself for natural reasons.

Ruggy: That implies integration.

Geeze. Try to follow the argument.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:11:25
jergul,

Certainly beyond 2020.

Paramount
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:11:29
Nuke Israel and it would solve a lot of problems. People needs to acknowledge this reality.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:11:39
Ruggy
Forever measure by "for as long as the US economy can support it".

For years. Until the dollar tanks.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:12:04
Perhaps beyond 2020. We will see.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:12:32
jergul,

I can repeat myself forever if you like. One-state is not a solution at all since it will never happen. Israel-Palestine is not a singular state, and it will never be one.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:14:31
Even if we accept that US relative share of the global economy will gradually decline as developing nations continue to improve, it will always have the means to support Israel.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:17:56
The fundamental issue that gnaws at your thesis is nicely illustrated by Asgard's thread.

There is no real commitment to the idea of Israel outside a rather small minority. There are however practical reasons for living in Israel for as long as it can compete with alternate destinations.

Cut the funding and see a new diaspora.

I agree that it should be countered by quotas allowing Palestinians to leave to better destinations.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:21:26
Ruggy
It is a 1 state solution now. An apartheid state at war with itself.

Gradual decline due to ppp adjustment and globalization was pre-trump. Now I see the dollar tanking. It will take years, certainly.

How much of an opportunity cost do you expect dual citizens to pay by choosing to remain in Israel as global realities change?

Asgard's thread suggests: "Not much of one".

Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:22:21
But the funding won't be cut. So we can discount that theory.

The diaspora itself has its uses; note where the bulk of the emigres end up at.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 09:37:00
jergul,

Israel has gone out of its way to avoid governing the Palestinian territories. The West Bank and Gaza Strip are self-governing units, subject to reasonable security precautions implemented by Israel to protect itself, that have nevertheless never been effectively integrated into the Israeli state. They are not a part of Israel.

That "small minority" is not so small at all, and it is growing quite fast. As much as we like to make fun of religious people, they have an ability to maintain their numbers that more liberal societies lack.

It is true that individuals less zealous about the Jewish cause often find reasons to leave Israel; being a perpetual target of Islamic extremism must be draining in the long run. Which is again why the borders will never come down as long as the Palestinians are present.

US collapse ain't happening, much as never-Trumpers might wish it to be so. And I wouldn't be so hopeful for such a collapse if I were you, given that we'd be taking the EU with us.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 09:51:10
Ruggy
Opportunity cost is relative and the value of funding is based on the value of the USD.

So lets not discount that theory.

Quaint that you think the US will be forever immune to the economic limits other countries have. The US as a normal country that Trump is working hard to create will tank as hard as Venezuela.

The idea of a Jewish State is not a religious idea.

Also quaint that you are unable to recognize that Israel is a single apartheid state at war with itself for natural reasons.

Bantulands notwithstanding.

Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 09 11:48:27
jergul,

The US is going to be an economic powerhouse for a very long time to come. Even if you have an overly pessimistic outlook on Trump's economic policies (and why would you?), Trump himself is very much an aberration in the American political system. The Democratic and Republican Parties are as a whole very much committed to the international and economic status quo, so Trump's legacy probably won't long outlive his term in office.

The fact of the matter is that the current world order depends on the US playing a leading role in the global economy. That's not going to change any time soon, even if Merkel and Trudeau seethe at his continued existence.

Which is not to say that Israel's continued existence is dependent on the US being #1. Israel has strong economic relationships with many major countries, and those aren't going to disappear just because such countries don't veto every little anti-Israeli resolution that comes up within the UN.

The Palestinian territories are not Bantustans. For one, neither the PA nor Hamas exist as effective financial subsidiaries of Israel; for another, their territories have never been part of the Israeli state. Certainly they had spent many years under effective military occupation, but that does not equal annexation. Moreover none of the parties involved nor the world generally believe as much.

Certainly I would agree with you that Jewish settlements within the West Bank have effectively become a part of Israel; the nature of the settlements combined with their administrative situation suggest as much.

The Jewish state is a national idea with strong religious undertones. Those undertones will increase in intensity as liberal and secular Israelis continue to fail to do their part in reproducing at adequate levels vis a vis their more religious counterparts.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Jun 09 11:53:21

"Trump himself is very much an aberration in the American political system."


Hopefully, the American political system will learn something from President Trump.

jergul
large member
Sat Jun 09 12:09:15
Ruggy
If you define powerhouse as "economic performance above what its population and industrial base suggest", then sure.

I sure your per capita spending will be far higher than say India for a long, long time.

Yay powerhouse. But aggragate demand is potentially far, far higher in China than anything the US can ever muster.

Once its gets into the groove of smiting us with its all-powerful consumer spending.

But feel free to continue to dream of an American millennium. It will last for several more years for sure. Perhaps even beyond 2020.

Israel occupied the areas and continues to control them. A single state in the throes of a civil war that naturally follows from the policies the state follows.

There is no need to cite exceptionalism in the minutae. There is nothing new with conquests and territorial gain. How Israel eventually resolves these issues in line with the principles of democracy and self-determination remains to be seen.

Israel is a secular idea for a secular people. It struggles with religious identities in all their variants.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:04:46
jergul,

I'm rather confused as to where you got the impression that Israel lives and dies based on what happens to the US.

Israel has spent decades building up substantive economic relationships with those very developing countries you mention. In the event of a hypothetical US meltdown, its economy will do just fine.

But again, this scenario only requires speculation in the event that the US is going to decline significantly enough that it will turn into another Venezuela. That simply isn't going to happen. It's inevitable that the US will no longer be the #1 superpower on the planet one day (after all, in a few decades racial minorities will probably be running things), but it will always have enough power and influence to back up this particular ally. The cost to support Israel is not insignificant but also not material for us.

US power decline relative to China is potentially going to be really bad for Taiwan. Israel, not so much.

The Palestinian people have never been integrated into Israeli society at any level, whether legally, geographically, culturally, or historically, and are fundamentally opposed to any attempts to do so. Claiming that this is a one-state scenario is like claiming that Nazi Germany and Vichy France was a unitary state.

Israel has always been an idea that principally benefits the Jewish people. How that idea evolves as the liberal minority continues to shrink remains to be seen.
jergul
large member
Sun Jun 10 13:13:07
Ruggy
Israel is a developing nation that through foreign subsidy has first world status. A normalized status would impact quite heavily on its economy.

The problem rests fundamentally with its citizens high mobility. Many will leave if the opportunity cost for remaining in Israel becomes too high.

Any country with economic fundamentals that look like the USAs will tank hard at some point. In the big picture, all we need is a new consumer of last resort. Cue China.

It is a one state scenario. Up to the population to determine how self-determination will manifest itself once the civil war ends.
murder
Member
Mon Jun 11 09:55:25

"Israel has spent decades building up substantive economic relationships with those very developing countries you mention. In the event of a hypothetical US meltdown, its economy will do just fine."

Israel wouldn't be able to defend it's own borders without us. The amount of aid given to Israel directly and indirectly props up their armed forces and their weapons R&D.

show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message:
Bookmark and Share