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Utopia Talk / Politics / Why is Canada even part of G7 again?
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:27:29
They were only invited in the first place because we wanted a buddy who could act as a counter to the European members. GDP-wise, Canada is barely in the top ten countries in the world, well behind Brazil, and any disproportionate influence they do have is a direct product of their relationship with us.


If Trudeau wants to align Canada with our rivals, then he can stay at home whenever the adults meet to talk from now on. Remove their unqualified ass from the G7 and give their seat to China already.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Jun 10 11:32:37
'with our rivals' meaning France, Germany, & the UK?
Glenn Beck
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:41:04
Oh no, someone else's feelings hurt by Canada.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:46:13
tw, they sided against us, didn't they?
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 11:52:33

tw, they would not be our rivals if they lowered their tariffs.

Then we would have fair trade.

Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:52:49
France, Germany and the UK used to have the same opinion regarding the trade.

It is the US who has turned against France, Germany, UK and the rest of Europe.
chuck
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:55:47
What a crybaby.
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:55:58
The US and France, Germany and the UK used to have the same opinion regarding the trade.
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 11:59:41
Maybe the world can bypass the White House, and make trade deals directly with each and every state in the US. I'm sure Europe, China and everyone else can offer, for an example California, better deals directly, than they will get if Trump is involved.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:05:56
The purpose of the G7 is to allow the west to coordinate.

As the Trump admin is far more keen to try and make the world work for the US better as a series of bilateral relationships with no consistent rule of law, surely it is better for the US to leave and the G6 can get on with coordinating policy responses to China and the US?
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:09:06
Paramount,

Nope.

"I, § 10

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility."

The UK, France and Germany have repeatedly defied us because for once we have a president who puts America's interests ahead of Europe's. The fact that Canada, whose very power is owed to its close relationship to the US, has sided against us here will not be forgotten.
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:10:42
Now that the US has left the G7 maybe we can invite China to join. They share our views on trade.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:13:35
Paramount:

No, they don't share our views on trade.

Lets not get all starry eyed about that.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:17:36

paramounted - It is the US who has turned against France, Germany, UK and the rest of Europe.


We have a balance of trade in excess of $800 Billion over half of which is with China. That still leave Billions of dollars where the West is getting rich off of us year after year after year...

That is hardly a fair trade.

If the situation was reversed you guys would have been bawling your eyes out.


obaminated
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:19:09
Trudeau is the little prick who hides in the wings waiting for his moment to white knight his way to fame. Trump is wise to piss on on him, canada has a lot more to lose than the US.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:19:38
Seb,

You may not have a government in 48 hours. European pretensions to leadership are always annoying, but in your case they're especially unrealistic right now.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:20:43

Seb, perhaps paramount means that G-6 and China both believe in sticking it to the US.

Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:23:04
BTW, tell Boris Johnson that Trump is too busy with the NK summit to run your country.
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:23:50
But we have a common enemy now that Trump has declared trade war. EU and China will get closer, and together we can make Trump comply with our wishes.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:25:10
Paramount,

Yeah, good luck reconciling liberal democracy with Chinese authoritarianism.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:26:27

President Trump is running The United States like a business. He intends to put our bottom line on a par with the countries that have been feeding off of us for decades.


Get used to it.

Cold Rod
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:28:43
"President Trump is running The United States like a business. "

No he isn't. And country should not be ran 'like a business.' It is much more than that. But simpletons like yourself keep repeating this.
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:29:58
Hot Dog,

"We have a balance of trade in excess of $800 Billion over half of which is with China."


You also have a budget deficit that is larger than your GDP.

You suck.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:32:22
"You also have a budget deficit that is larger than your GDP. "

Objectively incorrect. I though Europeans were supposed to be intelligent?
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:38:17

Some aren't.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:39:17

Seems like all of those that aren't are posting on this forum.

Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 12:45:10
Rugian:

I think we have seen that the US right now is neither interested nor capable of leadership.

The UK govts's similar weakness right now doesn't alter the fact, the G7 wouldn't work with China and Canada is a good fit for the other middle ranking nations that want a law based global order.

Paramount:
Don't for a second think that we are closer with China on anything. China has demonstrated that it has no interest in anything other than a unipolar world centred on China. It is just more sophisticated on how it is going to get there.

Keep the G6 as a club focused on promoting a rules based system.

By all means engage with China, and the US - but don't think their interests merit them being partners.

HotRod:

Yes, that's the problem - Trump thinks exports are like sales for a company, the chump. That's a completely stupid way of looking at it.

A trade deficit simply means that Americans are consuming more stuff from abroad than foreigners are consuming your stuff. The difference means they end up with a bunch of dollars which they can either hold, or invest in the US, or exchange them with someone else who wants to buy stuff from the US, hold on to them, or invest in the US.

Americans get goods, services, etc. (i.e. "wealth"), foreigners get worthless bits of paper.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 12:58:01

Seb - Yes, that's the problem - Trump thinks exports are like sales for a company, the chump. That's a completely stupid way of looking at it.


And what happens when our sales lag behind your sales? And why is that?



Seb - A trade deficit simply means that Americans are consuming more stuff from abroad than foreigners are consuming your stuff.


Why is that? Is our stuff that much more expensive?



Seb - Americans get goods, services, etc. (i.e. "wealth"), foreigners get worthless bits of paper.


And what makes those bits of paper worthless?

Is it because of the tariffs on our products are so high that the average foreigner cannot afford our products? Would you buy more from us if the price was cheaper? i.e.: No or lower tariffs?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Jun 10 13:03:38
if you want high trade surpluses we should all live in factory housing and toil away 12+ hrs a day making products

Trump's America / China
Paramount
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:17:06
Rugian

"Objectively incorrect. I though Europeans were supposed to be intelligent? "

Well, I meant to say that you have a very high budget deficit.

I also want to add that:

Donald Trump (as projected in FY 2019 budget): Plans to add $8.282 trillion, a 41 percent increase from the $20.245 trillion debt at the end of Obama's last budget, FY 2017. If he spends as he hopes, Trump will add the second-highest dollar amount in history. More important, he will add almost as much in his first term as Obama did in two terms.

http://www...-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296

How do you win a trade war against the world when you are so in debt? China is helping financing your debt.

http://observer.com/2018/04/china-could-use-us-debt-treasuries-to-win-trade-war/
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 13:18:02

That is basically how China is doing it.

But, regional production of some products can work somewhat on a worldwide basis.

Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:25:13
HotRod:

"And what happens when our sales lag behind your sales?"

We appreciate large piles of American dollars which we can either:
a. invest in the US but which would only get us more dollars
b. buy American goods

That is all.

"Why is that? Is our stuff that much more expensive?"

The whole goal of trade is that buy buying a unit of stuff from people who can produce it cheaper, you, the importer, have more money to spend.

So, the stuff of yours that we buy is either cheaper or higher quality than we can get domestically for the same price; and vice versa.

This is why your manufacturers are pissing themselves about the steel tarrifs, its going to make all your steel produced goods more expensive, which means the total value of lost exports will be bigger than the steel; and to top it all off americans will pay more for US manufactured goods.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:25:56
"And what makes those bits of paper worthless?"

The intrinsic value of a dollar is zero. It is what you can buy with a dollar that matters, and if you are not buying goods denominated in dollars, its got very limited value.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 13:36:11

Seb - So, the stuff of yours that we buy is either cheaper or higher quality than we can get domestically for the same price; and vice versa.


And what American products you can not buy more cheaply may be because you have a protectionist tariff on the products.


When we went off the gold standard I recall an "expert" saying that the inherent value of the dollar was our production capacity, not gold.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Jun 10 13:39:17

Seb, this is fun but I really have some things I need to get done. Hopefully, we can pick it up later.

Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:47:22
HotRod:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/547412/average-eu-and-us-import-tariffs-by-sector-2013/

And we just had a huge fucking deal negotiated to eliminate tarrifs further and the US talked away from it.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:48:42
You make it sound like the EU has tarrifs on US goods and not vice versa. This is simply not true.

Take for example your tarrifs on agricultural goods.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:49:48
So sure, lets agree to reduce tarrifs.

But if that is the goal, why on earth did Trump set fire to the two big FTA's the previous administration negotiated?
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:52:38
In any case, you have missed the point.

Obsessing about tarrifs and whether EU citizens would be better off if they bought more US goods, the question you ought to be answering yourself is: why would you punish yourself by increasing your own costs?

I could understand it if unemployment was high. As a re-distributive measure, tarrifs would force middle income Americans to pay more to buy American stuff and thus keep people in employment who might otherwise not be employed, but US employment is good.

And if you are going to redistribute, I'd focus on wealth rather than income.

Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 13:55:05
The main point hot rod, is that the US position on a trade deficit with Europe right now should be "so what?" given it has decided it doesn't want to reduce tarrifs as negotiated.

What Trump should be doing is working with the EU and others to tackle China's IP transfer practices.
Sam Adams
Member
Sun Jun 10 15:00:00
Ya well trump is a retatd and will be gone in two years so we will fix it then. Assuming the dems dont nominate some retarded communist.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 10 16:30:07
Nah Sam. Your done. Because whatever the next president says, the one after can be another trump.
jergul
large member
Sun Jun 10 16:53:38
Seb
12.5 by 2020! You know the twitterman can do it!
Sam Adams
Member
Sun Jun 10 19:01:05
"the one after can be another trump."

And yet the us still has free speech, a robust economy, and the worlds most scientifically advanced everything. Even with trump, you euros still cant compete. China and their insane work ethic might be able to compete one day, but the best eieos all moved to the us long ago leaving only the weak behind.
obaminated
Member
Sun Jun 10 19:36:50
http://www...eading-north-border/683297002/

*insert pepe*

Seb
Member
Mon Jun 11 02:00:57
Sam:

You keep telling yourself that Sam.

We will see how robust your economy is after Trumps done with it.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 11 02:39:02
"President Trump is running The United States like a business."

That, friend, is as good a definition of fascism as any. Thankfully untrue. For now.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 11 02:45:00
http://www...ractible-doofus-runs-an-empire

Sound like anyone we know?
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 11 06:59:27
Jergul:

http://2020commission.com

Though he needs to do a sequel 2021 commission for the Iran conflict.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Jun 11 09:07:10
"You keep telling yourself that Sam. "

I will. You go keep arresting people for speaking.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 11 09:30:09
You guys arrest people for speaking all the time.

You arrested some Nat West bankers for speaking to each other over the internet!
murder
Member
Mon Jun 11 09:38:15

"Why is Canada even part of G7 again?"

I'm starting to wonder if Rugian is Trump.

Why are your feelings hurt over Canada standing up to Trump?

murder
Member
Mon Jun 11 09:40:43

"canada has a lot more to lose than the US."

I guess we better start building that northern wall then.

jergul
large member
Mon Jun 11 11:06:09
Seb makes a valid point.

A trade balance means the US has to produce more stuff that it sends to foreigners in exchange for foreigners decreasing their ownership of US debt.

How on earth is that a good idea for the US?
Paramount
Member
Mon Jun 11 11:16:20
”How on earth is that a good idea for the US?”

Maybe that is the point?
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