Utopia Talk / Politics / Trump's child abduction policy

murder Member	Mon Jun 18 20:41:23 Seems near crumbling. The White House is now leaking stories to the failing NYTimes and the corrupt Jeff Bezos owned Washington Post that the President has been deceived by his advisers who have shown him pictures of smiling happy children in the concentration camps. Apparently Trump has been reading polls, and someone is about to get thrown under the bus. :o)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Jun 18 20:56:16 many on Fox News were saying there were no cages, then after photos released (by govt, so best view possible) Doocy says it's not cages merely walls made from chainlink fence... ah, sooo different. (And yes I'm aware this existed, to a lesser extent, under Obama) also DHS chick Nielsen denied that asylum seekers were being turned away at ports of entry, saying they are just being told to come back later as there's no space for them... what exactly does she think 'turned away' means?
Forwyn Member	Mon Jun 18 21:00:08 Logistic nightmare caused by retarded immigrants who bandwagon with the largest groups possible, exacerbating the problem. Law enforced, and people bitch and moan that space-age holding facilities aren't springing up fast enough. Then there's these: http://www...as-shelter-for-immigrant-youth
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Jun 18 21:49:12 tw - ah, sooo different. (And yes I'm aware this existed, to a lesser extent, under Obama) Bush 43 passed the law. tw - Nielsen denied that asylum seekers were being turned away at ports of entry, saying they are just being told to come back later as there's no space for them... what exactly does she think 'turned away' means? It means that all space set aside for asylum seekers is full to the maximum available. It means they are not turned away and told to go back to where the came from. It means we have no space at present, come back when there is space available. The law is quite clear. If a family tries to cross the border anywhere other than a recognized border crossing are, indeed, breaking the law. If they cross at a Port of Entry they are allowed in providing there is space available. Have you seen all of those people hanging out on the bridge in San Diego? They are waiting for space available. There are 25 Ports of Entry. What happens when you break the law and they come to your home and arrest you when you have children, for the sake of argument, let's say they are toddlers. What does the law enforcement in your country do? Do the cops tell the kids, you behave yourself and don't do anything dangerous. Or do they get child services to come down and take temporary custody until you can get your problems taken care of? Point: Where child services take the kids do they have complete freedom to come and go as they please are new their movements restricted for their safety. This is just some more liberal bullshit. They are trying to stretch it out until the election because that is all they got to fight the Republicans with. And if you take your blinders off you will see that there is nothing wrong with the law as it is written, it most certainly has nothing to do with cages or concentration camps. The kids are treated the same as your kids are treated if you break the law. Probably better. Now do you get it?
murder Member	Mon Jun 18 22:02:13 "also DHS chick Nielsen denied that asylum seekers were being turned away at ports of entry, saying they are just being told to come back later as there's no space for them... what exactly does she think 'turned away' means?" She could have just said there was no room at the inn. ;o)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Jun 18 22:10:19 "They are trying to stretch it out until the election because that is all they got to fight the Republicans with" Trump can change it instantly at any time, but no, he wants every demand of his met by congress with no compromises Nielsen was also personally offended at the notion the child separation was being used as a deterrent, when John Kelly specifically advocated for doing that (& Sessions too in some fashion) this admin needs to get its story straight
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 03:24:15 Trump is like Hot Rod. Abducting children and putting them in cages. "The kids are treated the same as your kids are treated if you break the law. Probably better." So why are hundreds of children weeping and calling for their parents? “Papa! Papa!” one child is heard weeping in the audio file that was first reported by the nonprofit ProPublica and later provided to The Associated Press. http://apn...dren-at-border-adds-to-outrage
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 03:25:51 "“All Americans are rightly horrified by the images we are seeing on the news, children in tears pulled away from their mothers and fathers,” Cruz said. “This must stop.”" Isn't this what the Nazis did to the Jews?
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 05:12:11 "Bush 43 passed the law." You have one group saying Obama passed the law and they are enforcing it and the same group now saying it was Bush who passed the law. But none of them can cite the law. Let's cover a few points since you like to repeat what you hear from Trump's propaganda network known as Fox. 1. They cannot decipher between practice/policy, law, nor discretion. 2. Trump admin officials have contradicted themselves saying this is used for deterrence (not working, or way too early to tell), or that it isn't used for deterrence merely, they don't want to do this or its bothersome. Actions and words speak otherwise determining their intent. 3. There is NO federal law mandating that accompanied minors 'shall' be separated from their families. Or unaccompanied for that matter. Though there are practices and policies in place more specifically unaccompanied minors (whom were victims of human trafficking or drugs) will definitely be taken into custody and be a ward to the state. Until they are able to reach their parents or relative then returned. (Bush 2008 law) Coincidentally this was a law that republicans wanted to repeal. Irony. http://www...licans-want-repeal-2008-bush-/ As for accompanied minors with their families, they were not separated. And only rarely if it could be established they were victims of human trafficking or mules in drug trafficking. If you claim it's the law, site the federal law that specifically states that children shall be separated. There are too many instances where law makers, Trump officials have contradicted themselves when they reference any "law." It has already been disproven and/or established it does not exist. So Hot Rod, what was the law that Bush 43 passed? "It means that all space set aside for asylum seekers is full to the maximum available. It means they are not turned away and told to go back to where the came from. It means we have no space at present, come back when there is space available." Hot Rod, you contradicted yourself just as Nielsan did. It precisely means that. Go to ports. No room? Can't assist you at this time, maybe go to nearest embassy or seek other options. Here is a hint, at this point, there is none or very little. "The law is quite clear. If a family tries to cross the border anywhere other than a recognized border crossing are, indeed, breaking the law. " Yes. A law is broken. However, again there is no law about separating families. "What happens when you break the law and they come to your home and arrest you when you have children, for the sake of argument, let's say they are toddlers. What does the law enforcement in your country do? Do the cops tell the kids, you behave yourself and don't do anything dangerous. Or do they get child services to come down and take temporary custody until you can get your problems taken care of? Point: Where child services take the kids do they have complete freedom to come and go as they please are new their movements restricted for their safety. " Actually what happens Hot Rod, is that If a parent is still there, the children stay with that parent. Or relative, or someone within the family that is able to come and get them. If not, then child services come into place and temporarily hold them until a family member can get them. And option that is available. Not so much in this situation with the practice of separating families without any grounds. In this situation, they are limited on who they can reach to come get their children. Versus the family member here in the states, with your scenario that you presented. Those parents are still able to see their children while incerarted. They are able to use phones, visitation, video visitation, send letters and have forms of communication to established with their kids. In this current situation, limited, if any at all forms of communication as they are completely separated from their children. Your comparisons lack insight. But then again, many of your posts about many subjects lack that. I just wanted to point that out because you're only repeating Trump propaganda network. "This is just some more liberal bullshit. They are trying to stretch it out until the election because that is all they got to fight the Republicans with. And if you take your blinders off you will see that there is nothing wrong with the law as it is written, it most certainly has nothing to do with cages or concentration camps. The kids are treated the same as your kids are treated if you break the law. Probably better. " Who is trying to stretch it out? It is quite obvious this is a tactic devised by Trump and his admin to use it as a tool for "deterrence." they are on record for stating that intent as why they decided to make this as a policy driven practice. As they incorrectly and falsely stated this was Obama's and Bush's doing. Once again, you cite the law. What does the law state Hot Rod? Otherwise, stop spreading bullshit. thanks.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 05:24:09 Few corrections: *incarcerated. *Not repealed but wanted amended.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 07:27:27 Have you guys ever seen what happens to people in a concentration camp? http://www.flickr.com/photos/tdaxp/83036574/
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 07:30:41 Attempting to divert. That isn't what his point was. Nor anyone else who decides to reference it. It is referring to the practice just like the practice we did to the Japanese and to Native Americans when we did similar actions. So back to the point, care to site the laws that states children shall be separated from families, arbitrarily?
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 07:31:18 *cite
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 07:34:56 ad - You have one group saying Obama passed the law and they are enforcing it and the same group now saying it was Bush who passed the law. But none of them can cite the law. You should try watching the Press Conference on FOX sometime. Neilsen was there yesterday and she read the entire law and then took questions. They have a Press Conference every weekday. Not sure but I doubt your liberal media carries it.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 07:41:50 She did not read the entire law as there is no law. So perpetuating the lie. Again, cite the laws. Are you talking about the 1997 settlement Flores? Could you vote the law from that settlement that it states children shall be separated from their families?
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 07:42:20 Could you find* the law...
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 07:48:17 I know this is hard pressed for you because you hate to face reality and facts. But I addressed your drivel. At least have the courage to be able to respond instead of avoiding it all together.
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 08:03:38 Hot Rod, "Have you guys ever seen what happens to people in a concentration camp? http://www.flickr.com/photos/tdaxp/83036574/ " ^ That doesn't look too bad. At least all of them are adults, and none of them are crying. This is what happens in Trumps USA – a small little baby girl is weeping after Trump forces attacks her parents: http://static01.nyt.com/images/2018/06/17/us/17dc-separate/merlin_139496637_969cb74a-4d01-4350-84a6-ebb29a2278ad-articleLarge.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp&disable=upscale
smart dude Member	Tue Jun 19 08:06:27 Have you ever met a small baby/toddler? They cry all the time for the stupidest shit imaginable. The "look at this baby crying" argument, which is supposed to appeal to one's emotions, doesn't really make a lot of sense, does it?
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 08:12:09 Okay, maybe babies are crying all the time. But still, separating them from their parents is not nice.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 09:10:30 The Nazis did not separate the children from their mothers. Both mothers and children went into the "showers" together and when they were dead they were tossed into the ovens together.
hood Member	Tue Jun 19 09:13:46 Just no, hot rod. Just no.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 09:20:00 That is pretty remarkable, Hot Rod. Let me guess, this must be another subject you have extensive knowledge of? Because you're doing rather poorly.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 09:21:22 Any time you want to defend your claims btw.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 09:26:31 For those who say the children crossing the are separated from their parents like the Nazis are despicable. If the children and their parents show up at a Port of Entry together they stay together. If they croass the border illegally then they are crimonals and they must be held in jail until they can have a hearing. The children are held up to 72 hours while they are documented so they can be returned to their rightful parents. Then they are turned over to child services who try to find a next of kin or a substitute family until the parents get their legal matters resolved. Of course, the children have to be restrained from running away. During their 'restraint' they are supplied with television, computer games, coloring books and whatever else is needed for their age to keep them occupied. The Black guy that is the leading Democrat is crying real tears on TV right now because we are not sending the children to prison with the parents.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 09:42:30 "For those who say the children crossing the are separated from their parents like the Nazis are despicable." It's the principle and action of separation while at the same time declaring it's the law to separate children from families. Admittedly this is a practice with the intent of deterrence. This was addressed previously. Kindly review. Also this falls into the same line that we thought it was despicable that human experiments were conducted studying the biology and genes. It was called eugenics. But reality it was something the nazis got from us. You may need a lesson on association and why comparisons are used in this way. Unless you want to make the false claim as you did that nazis mor did the US separated families. Review my post about internment camps and native Americans. Everything else had been addressed. Your turn.
TJ Member	Tue Jun 19 09:58:14 There are too many pied pipers playing out of tune in order to attract vulnerable rats. lmao
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 12:59:39 ad, I got it now. It is your intention to lock up children in a jail or prison cell so you can feel good about yourself for keeping the family together. Cool.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:06:39 Must be a taking point you heard on fox. The retardation is strong with you. Try again.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:09:56 Talking point rather.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 13:21:55 No. That is the alternative. A parent and child crossing the border in some desolate area are breaking the law. The parent is going to jail for entering our country illegally. So the Border Patrol has three choices. 1. lock up the child with the parent for the duration of his sentence, whatever it may be. 2. Tell the kid to go back home where he/she belongs. 3. Or use the system they are using now to get the kid with a relative or in a foster home as quickly as possible. Those are the only three logical solutions to the problem.
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 13:26:12 I Can’t Go Without My Son,’ a Mother Pleaded as She Was Deported to Guatemala As a growing number of families are separated as part of the Trump administration’s attempt to control illegal immigration, some parents are being deported before recovering their children. [...] Reunification becomes particularly difficult when a parent is deported without the child and is no longer on American soil, Mr. Sandweg said; in those cases, “there is a very high risk that parents and children will be permanently separated.” http://www...igration-deported-parents.html You sick bastards.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 13:30:07 There is no one to blame but the parent. She knows that she should go through a Port of Entry but she chose to break the law. If that is even true which I doubt.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:36:33 Is isn't an alternative if that was the case before. Do you even know enough about the background of these issues before you start talking. Or is this your continuation trump propaganda network? Let's start of about children breaking the law that you claimed. Justice Dept. Cannot prosecute children with their families. Hence why they are force separating so they are able to do that. Something that you failed to acknowledge as to why this is a practice and not the law that you've avoided to cite. You have also failed to acknowledge the historical point about Trump has also practiced and been practicing the "catch and release" concept that many have been critical of. Over 100k to be exact. They include families and unaccompanied minors. What happened? Sent back to the country of origins. You want to talk about logic, Hot Rod. What can they do? Catch them at the border and send them back. Not separate separate families. Logic tells us the only reason they are doin this is what trump and admin have said. They will separate families as a deterrant. With this current practice now you are overloading the jails and the justice system and costing the taxpayers more. But I am sure with your extensive knowledge and experience in this line of work you understood that? If you want to keep challenging this notion. Keep going, I've got the time.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:37:48 "There is no one to blame but the parent. She knows that she should go through a Port of Entry but she chose to break the law. If that is even true which I doubt." Easy for you to say. But again, you keep stating things that you severely have the lack of knowledge of.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:38:42 Still waiting on those laws btw, hot rod.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 13:43:24 You go look them up. I am having trouble with Google. I ask it a question and it gives me a list of options. I choose an option and it gives me another list of options. I choose another option and it gives me... You get the idea. That's what I get for asking Microsoft for online help.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:45:37 I already am aware of policies and laws. You made a claim. Now back it up.
Paramount Member	Tue Jun 19 13:47:35 Maybe you should just stay away from Internet and computers, Hot Rod? Go out in the park and feed the birds instead, like a normal old person do.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 13:52:23 I will give you my source. FOX News-Press Briefing If they are wrong then I am wrong. BTW, why didn't Obama fix this during his 8-years? Instead of catch and release which, when all is said and done, he was an accessory before the fact to thousands of people breaking the law by allowing the illegals to break the law.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 13:56:03 I addressed your source. And an ambiguous statement eluding to "laws being in placed." I've addressed this already, hot rod. Your second point is an unbstantiated claim. Fact though Obama's admin deported more than the previous administration. Try again.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 13:56:51 paramounted, if I do that my mind will atrophy and I will die. What would you do without me? That's why I have so many hobbies.
Cold Rod Member	Tue Jun 19 14:00:27 Molesting kids is not a hobby, pedo rod.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 14:04:20 ad, I did not say that. I said, "Instead of catch and release which, when all is said and done, he was an accessory before the fact to thousands of people breaking the law by allowing the illegals to break the law." If Bush did that too, then he is just as guilty.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 14:05:57 And I said it is an unsubstantiated claim just as your earlier claims.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Jun 19 14:13:46 It was all over the real news while he was doing it.
American Democrat Member	Tue Jun 19 14:23:54 You claim he was an accessory, this is inferring to a crime. Unbstantiated claim. Furthermore this whataboutism has got to stop. Already you or the base keeps harping about 3 previous administrations in regards to laws. Which none apply in this given scenario.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jun 19 14:29:18 Whatboutism is all the right has. They are down to their worst members at this point.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jun 19 14:34:26 Even Ted Cruz is now all for helping these families. Just a few days ago, he was all for splitting families. Slimy motherfucker probably saw his polling plummet.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jun 19 14:35:57 Co-Creator, Executive Producer of ABC's Modern Family: " Let me officially join Seth MacFarlane in saying I’m disgusted to work at a company that has anything whatsoever to do with Fox News. This bullshit is the opposite of what Modern Family stands for. Fox Studio has been a wonderful home for most of my career - so many amazing people there who share the concerns about Fox News but aren’t in the position to speak out. I have no problem with fact-based conservatism (such as WSJ), but Fox New’s 23-hour-a-day support of the NRA, conspiracy theories and Trump’s lies gets harder to swallow every day as I drive onto that lot to make a show about inclusion. I look forward to seeing Modern Family through to the end and then, sale or no sale, setting up shop elsewhere. "
Forwyn Member	Tue Jun 19 14:39:56 muh NRA
John Adams Member	Tue Jun 19 15:29:47 A lot of misinformation on here and I don't know where to start. Nor do I feel like having the energy to address it all.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jun 19 16:37:27 HR isn't that wrong... other than having no moral compass (like his hero) a family crosses the border, the parents get zero-tolerance arrested for the misdemeanor and have their kids separated and traumatized... but at least some get TV eventually thus it's just like summer camp as Laura Ingraham says (reminiscent of how pepper spray is 'essentially a food product' by Megyn Kelly... who was then shunned for pointing out facts about Trump)
John Adams Member	Tue Jun 19 16:50:28 When he was talking about Border Patrol and what they do. He and AD said the same thing. When it comes to what this current practice is. This is an ICE and DHS thing moreso. Border patrol holds them [the children] temporarily until the parents go to court and they get times served then may receive a monitoring device and let them go on their way or returned to their country. The misinformation are the laws being used and interpretation thereof. AD is right, there are not particular laws that state anything that children /shall/ be separated from their children. But, it could happen and be an option, either accompanied or unaccompanied. I think AD did reference that. Hot Rod has no moral compass, only when it suits him. But he isn't a genuine person anyways and just about everything he says is nonsense and always bias, by his own admission. One thing I thought was a very good point was bringing up that to prosecute, the children must be separated. I wholeheartedly agree that the intent is used for as a deterrence. And anyone who agrees with that concept is an idiot.
patom Member	Tue Jun 19 17:19:14 as probably the only one on this site that has had actual experience dealing with law breakers and what happens to them if they are arrested and brought to jail. First of all. The crime of crossing the border, to my knowledge is not a Felony. It's a misdemeanor that carries a fine and no more than 6 months in jail, "upon conviction". There are lots of misdemeanors on the books and very few actually are sentenced to more than 48 hrs. in jail. Many of them already have that served and are released when they get adjudicated in front of a judge. Time served and released with maybe a small fine. Even if you commit a felony, you are still given bail unless it is a capital offense. In either case children are not routinely taken from the family. When they are they are NOT put into mass detention camps in cages. They are NOT forced to sleep on the floor under survival blankets. To my knowledge, what the Obama administration was doing was arresting them and immediately taking them back to the border and putting them on the other side. They were NOT taking children from their parents. Unaccompanied Children may very well have been taken to centers where the authorities tried to make contact with relatives in this country.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jun 19 17:27:55 i believe Nielsen said after the kids are separated they go into the system filed as 'unaccompanied minors' so i wonder what the risk is of them being lost forever the important thing is Trump is taking damage these kids enjoyment of summer camp in chainlink (non-cage) enclosures is not in vain
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Jun 19 17:36:41 found Nielsen saying it (6:53-7:25) http://youtu.be/ae23MjN9GOU?t=6m53s sounds pretty messed up
John Adams Member	Tue Jun 19 17:42:36 Patom. I'm with you. 15 plus years. Now on the state regulatory side. Working on 2nd retirement.
TJ Member	Tue Jun 19 18:09:55 http://fas.org/sgp/crs/homesec/R43599.pdf Posting for the one or two who may read.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jun 19 18:17:57 "In either case children are not routinely taken from the family. When they are they are NOT put into mass detention camps in cages. They are NOT forced to sleep on the floor under survival blankets." Drunk drivers and jaywalkers typically are not committing their crimes in caravans of dozens of people. Regardless, if they are with their children when they are detained, that child most definitely will be held until another family member can get to them. Naturally, as it's not hundreds of foreigners with no reliable contact information, this is usually not long enough of a process to even mention.
www.yeswecansong.com Member	Wed Jun 20 03:23:05 Sulu remembers: http://for...ly-separation-children-border/ ‘At Least During the Internment …’ Are Words I Thought I’d Never Utter I was sent to a camp at just 5 years old — but even then, they didn't separate children from families. By George Takei | June 19, 2018
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Jun 20 13:52:40 "As the son of a Polish holocaust survivor, the images and sounds of this family separation policy is heart wrenching,” Cohen wrote. “While I strongly support measures that will secure our porous borders, children should never be used as bargaining chips." ~Trump's long-time criminal henchman distancing himself from his crime boss
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Jun 20 14:20:15 so after Trump saying he couldn't do anything, he's now caved and doing something he's got his giant marker out... & has signed something to keep families together
Rugian Member	Wed Jun 20 20:07:51 Wait, he caved? Goddamnit. Rationality-free emotion and Rachel Maddow's crocodile tears rule us all, apparently.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Jun 20 21:01:31 it's not a total cave... he's maintaining 'zero tolerance' but families will be kept together theres a 20 day max court ruling that was a limiter to doing that all along (the order asks Sessions to try to get that changed but who knows how easy that happens) so if that's not changed unclear if they will just separate kids after 20 days, or go for the catch-and-release seems a stall tactic to me.. and probably won't satisfy many ankle bracelets seem a much better idea this is the order: http://www...ity-address-family-separation/
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Jun 20 21:14:30 I think it was Geraldo going ballistic and losing his fucking mind last night.
Dukhat Member	Wed Jun 20 21:58:43 What a great moral example Trump is. He only does the right thing after being massively embarassed to do so from all corners of the earth for days if not weeks. Truly a man of the times.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Jun 20 22:28:52 not sure he's off the hook... pretty sure a lot of people still won't like jailed children even if kept w/ parents (& the Ann Coulter / Stephen Miller / John Kelly wing who wanted to abuse children as a deterrent will not be happy with this change either) definitely was disgraceful & more proof of his amoral character how he said it was the Democrats who caused it & he was helpless, all while using it as leverage to get his wall
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Jun 20 22:48:13 dukbrain - He only does the right thing after being massively embarassed to do so... Wrong again as usual. tw - pretty sure a lot of people still won't like jailed children... That would be the imbecilic left. Stand up and be counted.
Dukhat Member	Wed Jun 20 23:26:56 Cuckservatives have no response. After creating a whole fake ideology where every display of empathy is being a "snowflake" or "cuck," they invited more and more deprived actions by their leaders until we have our current family separation debate. Fucking retards. Maybe live in the real world where compromise and love and tolerance exist instead of being selfish and retarded incels
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Jun 21 00:08:55 trump is now well on way to achieving immigration strategy far more compassionate [and yet much more effective] than obama would have ever wanted much less dreamed
Trolly Member	Thu Jun 21 05:10:40 Hey everybody its Putin Putin Fluffer/werewolf dicktaster!
Seb Member	Thu Jun 21 08:32:57 Aaand now we find they've been forcibly dosing kids with antipsychotics to control them in these prison camps. http://www...g=AOvVaw1qC0SaYB21GbXwPhE-BdQW
obaminated Member	Thu Jun 21 12:21:07 This is easily one of the dumbest things libtards are bitching about. If you commit a crime, your child does not go to jail with you.
American Democrat Member	Thu Jun 21 12:37:48 That was not the point.
murder Member	Fri Jun 22 16:52:08 As predicted, Trump ran like a frenchman when faced with an angry public. The same guy that says he'd charge a school shooter. lol :o)
Seb Member	Fri Jun 22 17:09:11 Yes obaminated. And gassing Jews was exactly what the law requires in Germany.
murder Member	Fri Jun 22 17:26:28 I believe they've changed that law. :o)
Forwyn Member	Fri Jun 22 18:57:27 Yes Seb. Having kids in a a cushy Wal-Mart turned rec center is exactly like gassing Jews.
obaminated Member	Fri Jun 22 19:50:10 Seriously, wtf seb. What would you like the government to do when catching illegal immigrants?
Forwyn Member	Fri Jun 22 20:14:15 Subsidized "fire-proof" housing
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sat Jun 23 09:26:52 I also want to know why Russian cargo planes are here at our military bases the same time our military is moving drugged up immigrant children with no paper trail around.... is this how we lose 1,500 kids?? How much does Trump make per head? http://twi...irl/status/1009935923193221120
Paramount Member	Sat Jun 23 10:43:37 ”Seriously, wtf seb. What would you like the government to do when catching illegal immigrants?” If they seek asylum they should grant them asylum.
Paramount Member	Sat Jun 23 10:46:20 1st Sergeant (First Shirt) @Top_Sergeant · 21 juni Russian Military Internal Affairs Jet lands on American soil. Sealed crates unloaded, whisked away. While Trump distracts media with immigration, Putin brings in supplies, is it a resupply for #Spetnaz, Is it cyber hacking equipment? #TrumpIsGRU #TrumpRussia #MARINESagainstTrump Maybe it just kosher food for the Russian jews that are operating in the USA.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 23 12:47:26 Forwyn: Arguing something that is blatantly morally reprehensible is fine because it's legal and follows process even if it is vile in principle is how you move to ending up exterminating an entire race. The general patterns of genocide are well documented and the US is about midway through the ten accepted stages. Of course it need not end there and i have every hope your more moral compatriots intervene and restrain this barbarity you support before it goes much further.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 23 12:50:06 Obaminated: Given 90% return for their hearings, I would suggest release them one side of the border or the other. Taking the kids into custody separately with no clear plan or process to reunite them, forcibly medicating them, etc. is simply state sponsored child abuse and must end. How you sort out border control in a humane way is your problem to solve not mine.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jun 23 12:57:00 HR, "Trump can change it instantly at any time, but no, he wants every demand of his met by congress with no compromises" Everything that President Trump is asking for is imperative if the borders are going to be fixed the way they absolutely need to be fixed.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 23 12:58:54 Crossing at a point other than a designated entry until recently a civil offence. Over time you have chosen to make it a criminal one. That's a *choice* by society not a moral imperative. You have chosen as a society to make it more important to detain people who claim asylum in the wrong place above basic human dignity. The reason you are doing this is because you don't like Latinos claiming asylum. But rather than invoke racist laws or end asylum together, you've embarked on this bullshit policy that ammiunts to ibstiutionalised child abuse on an industrial scale. You cannot turn around and say this is necessary because of criminal procedure. You *chose* to make this previously civil matter a criminal process.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Jun 23 13:58:43 "Everything that President Trump is asking for is imperative..." even republicans aren't enthusiastic about his wall... & when is he going to make Mexico pay for it, no effort shown so far, instead wanting to rob the military funds that he said were so critical & if he gets the wall, expect lots of angry people with their property seized via eminent domain
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jun 23 16:30:14 Seb, 20 years ago there was an estimated 11,000,000 illegals in this country. How many do you think there are now? How much of our $20 Trillion debt was spent on them? Most of those asking for asylum are trying to get away from the gangs in Central America. If I had my way I would locate them on Chicago's North Side.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 23 16:42:52 Hot Rod: How many? Don't know and don't care. State sponsored child abduction is unconscionable. Your debt? I'd hazard somewhere close to none. Yes, getting away from gangs is a legitimate reason to claim asylum. Finally, those central American gangs are largely populated by Latino kids deported from the US in the 80s. The gang culture originated in L.A. and other inner city US states - kids without any connection to society so formed their own - and exacerbated on deportation where they lacked any connection to their "home" country. The reason they became so powerful is because they straddle both key narco routes, have operations in many countries in central America and the US (the gangs formed in the US from kids from msny nations), and great access to guns exported from the US. The central American gang culture is entirely a consequence of US punative approach to migration that sets out to penalise children for their parents actions (Which vary from legitimate asylum claims to at worst mild felony of crossing the border), fueled by your drugs problem, armed by your gun problem. Seriously, fuck you guys. And fuck you hotrod - it's exactly the kind of thing the Nazis were doing before they turned to extermination camps.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jun 23 17:10:34 Seb, in England, if a parent goes to prison do you guys lock up the child with the parent or do you find relatives or foster parents to take care of the child until the parent serves their sentence? Just curious.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Jun 23 17:12:51 BTW, that "mild felony" now carries a sentence of five years.
American Democrat Member	Sat Jun 23 19:20:33 " Seb, in England, if a parent goes to prison do you guys lock up the child with the parent or do you find relatives or foster parents to take care of the child until the parent serves their sentence? " Logical fallacy and false equivalency to the totality of the circumstances. These comparisons that your kind has been using in various mediums-- ignore too many variables. Which coincidentally has already been addressed by me.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 24 03:09:24 Hot rod: If someone is charged with a crime, if they are non violent and have children they are not detained until after found guilty. And the children are put into care, not fucking prison camps. And anti psychotic medicine is not injected to them. And there are robust controls to allow them to be reunited. When families enter the UK illegally they are detained together in facilities allowing far more freedom than a prison. None of that is true in this case. You are detaining the kids in fucking cages. If you are going to detain them, keep them with their parents you inhumane savage. And finally, choosing to treat border crossing as "omg super crime" rather than a minor civil infraction is a choice you make, not an objective moral fixed point. So making a comparison as to what happens in, say, a violent crime isn't a reasonable comparison. The sentence for illegal crossing is a minor felony and a couple of weeks. Child abduction isn't even proportionate to the undue criminalisation of border crossing.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Jun 24 04:44:21 Seb, does UK deal with these numbers? http://www.wola.org/files/images/140827apps.png
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Jun 24 04:48:56 And that is just the ones that were caught.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 24 07:57:14 Hot rod: You know the cost and impracticality of other measures is what the Nazis used to justify extermination. There is no magic number that makes this ok. The fact you do not recognise this is the problem. And it would cost a fraction to build and staff sufficient facilities and speed up processing than it would to build and maintain a wall.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 24 08:01:01 Also, of you are detaining the parents and detaining the children, why do numbers make a difference here? Or are you accepting this is a deterrence measure designed to reduce numbers.
Seb Member	Sun Jun 24 08:04:26 So, 400k a year, 35 days average detention - 38k detention places need. Small by refugee camp standards. This could be done trivially. There is simply no economic case here to justify child separation, irrespective of the basic evil such a policy constitutes.
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