Utopia Talk / Politics / Blacks and democracy don't mix

Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 08:49:29 TL;DR, South Africa's kingmaker and new deputy vice president made his climb to power by spending years embezzling money from his province's education budget and bribing supporters with shady contracts, cash handouts and free KFC. http://www...h-africa-anc-david-mabuza.html Meanwhile, Zimbabwe's election this week was a disaster, Madagascar's heading to yet another political crisis, Kenya's managed to forget how to run a clean election, South Sudan is officially a failed state, and American blacks continue to vote Democrat. Time to do the world a favor and ban this primitive race's access to the voting booth once and for all.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Aug 05 08:52:19 He had me at KFC.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 08:57:15 "But under the A.N.C., the education system has been in shambles, so gutted by corruption that even party officials are dismayed at how little students are learning, in schools so decrepit that children have plunged to their deaths in pit toilets. The rage in Ziyanda’s town grew so intense that protesters hurled stones at a local A.N.C. leader, who narrowly escaped by whipping out his handgun and shooting randomly into the crowd, wounding two children and roiling the community all the more." #BringBackApartheid
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 05 09:02:35 I think it's just that many African countries doesn't have any good and honest leaders. People are too money- and powerhungry. It is like these countries needs to be run by the UN or some other kind of international body until the countries are stabalized economically and shit, and until they have come accustomed to democracy and democratic elections. The problem though is that the UN or any other international body may also turn out to be corrupt. So maybe it is for the best to leave these countries alone and let them handle their problem themselves.
Forwyn Member	Sun Aug 05 09:04:23 B-b-but they're gonna reclaim muh land from muh whitey and make me feels good while I starve
Seb Member	Sun Aug 05 09:37:51 Rugian: The USA's new persident made hi climb to power spending years embezzling money and engaging in shady property deals, and defrauding American citizens. He bribed supporters with shady contracts, and was himself known to be enmeshed in a number of suspect foreign business dealings which continued since he took office. Campaign rallies were notorious for the candidates calls to supporters to violent suppressed of protestors, and fervent demands - encouraged by the party learership, to imprison his political rivals. The leaders faction within the ruling party, which has come to dominate, is known for it's strong tribal support for the ethnic majority population who feel the control of the country has slipped under the previous leader (from a minority tribe).
Seb Member	Sun Aug 05 09:39:08 The leader, on taking office, immediately began promoting prominent members of his family to positions of power in order to cement his rule, while purging officials that had served under previous leaders.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 05 09:40:47 Despite the unprecedented actions, none of this has caused much damage to his reputation amongst the mostly rural, nativist base who continue to strongly support the new leader.
Pillz Member	Sun Aug 05 09:40:50 What world is Seb living in
Pillz Member	Sun Aug 05 09:42:03 It's like if a retard tried to write an RT article during the summer 2016 riots.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 10:15:03 Seb, Ah, it's actually been a while since we've seen the typical European snobbery about Americans being backwards rednecks and all that. Sadly though, there are a few things that undermine your HuffPo-worthy comparison here, such as: 1. The US being ranked more than 100 countries higher on the HDI; 2. Having an order of magnitude greater GDP per capita; 3. Significantly stronger political institutions; 4. Being ranked much higher on the CPI; 5. Having a population that actually knows how to read. Other than that though, banner submission. Oh, and as for the tribalism example, you're barking up the wrong tree if you think Republicans are the ones who are pushing identity politics throughout the Anglosphere.
hood Member	Sun Aug 05 10:23:06 What? That's been their message for like 2 decades. Their identity of choice is just not as sexy a play.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 10:26:44 But I will admit that in regards to our (ex-)European friends, the US does rank somewhat lower on several indexes of national development and crime. For the contributory cause of this, please refer to the thread title.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 10:29:42 "That's been their message for like 2 decades." Blatantly incorrect. Being for law and order policies and border enforcement does not equate to an endorsement of white supremacy.
hood Member	Sun Aug 05 10:34:29 Er, try "family values" and religious values and voter suppression tactics.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 05 10:39:37 -Yeah, advocating for sustaining the nuclear family structure is really racist -Not sure what religious values have to do with racism -"Voter suppression" = "making people take a half hour out of their day to get an ID card." Wow, so horrible. Meanwhile I have to jump through hoops and burn serious cash in order to legally acquire a firearm, which unlike voting is actually supposedly a constitutional right that I should have free enjoyment of. Fucking hypocrisy on this one is sickening.
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 05 11:03:13 " there are a few things that undermine your HuffPo-worthy comparison here, such as: " That is because of Obama and other administrations. The current regime is a corrupt mafia with 3rd world tendencies.
RugianLovesTheCock Member	Sun Aug 05 11:05:26 Another classic post of Rugian and his admiration for cocks and being a whining cocksucker. But he only whines when he doesn't have enough cocks.
murder Member	Sun Aug 05 11:06:55 "Time to do the world a favor and ban this primitive race's access to the voting booth once and for all." Perfect chance to achieve a compromise. Any citizen that benefits more from federal tax dollars than they contribute is banned. That way it's not racist.
hood Member	Sun Aug 05 11:46:45 "have to do with racism" ?? This was about tribalism, not racism. Republicans pull the religion strings pretty hard in the name of their tribalism. It is pretty hardcore identity games. I'll give you a C for your attempted deflection.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 05 12:15:32 Rugian: "typical European snobbery" "1. The US being ranked more than 100 countries higher on the HDI; 2. Having an order of magnitude greater GDP per capita;" What does that say about democracy, exactly? " 3. Significantly stronger political institutions;" Which you are busy dismantling. "4. Being ranked much higher on the CPI;" In broad business maybe, but your methods of financing elections are considered corruption in many OECD countries; which of course wouldn't be captured "5. Having a population that actually knows how to read." The USA ranks in literacy lower than any European countrie Zimbabwe Literacy rate 86.5% South Africa Literacy rate 94.3% (UNESCO 2015 data) Strangely, the US does not make literacy data available to UNESCO, but apparently a federal study puts adult literacy as high as 32m, and an earlier study suggested 14% of adult Americans did not meet basic literacy standards. So, potentially not far off Zimbabwe! https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-01-08-adult-literacy_N.htm "According to the National Assessment of Adult Literacy (completed most recently in 2003, and before that, in 1992), 14 percent of adult Americans demonstrated a “below basic” literacy level in 2003, and 29 percent exhibited a “basic” reading level."
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Aug 05 16:16:47 ”strangely” unesco reports literacy rates for overwhelming majority of countries.. but not for 10 of 12 nato founding nations [including uk].. nor rest of scandanavia.. nor japan.. nor australia figure 2.2a of 2013 oecd report provides information for mean literacy among 16 to 65 year olds for usa and a number of countries in europe http://www...--eBook%20(01%2010%202013).pdf * 8 european countries significantly above usa [all with populations <18 million] * 5 european countries not significantly different from usa [including england/n-ireland and germany] * 5 european countries significantly below usa [including poland france spain and italy]
Trolly Member	Sun Aug 05 18:05:01 Lol@ rugian's multi
Dukhat Member	Sun Aug 05 18:19:27 Confirmation bias in a fucking retarded thread. Your shit would stink too if you were occupied for over a hundred years and then left to be independent, often under durress, with borders that make no sense with regards to the ethnic groups involved. As always there are many moving pieces with tribalism more than "being black" being only one component. But it is not so simple for a neanderthal like Rugian to actually go out and learn something. His brain is so full of bias and his IQ is so low, he simply seeks to look for selective facts that confirm his initial bias. Retard.
Forwyn Member	Sun Aug 05 19:32:52 Several SE Asian nations went through the same turmoil and are flourishing. Yes, we can acknowledge that race and culture are not the only facets in the equation, but at some point you have to realize that they are major, major factors.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 06 00:31:13 Forwyn: They tended to not be so dramatically reorganised, in part because the colonial powers had more respect for the indigenous culture. "they're just savages" being the reason for the completely destruction of local institutions and proceses; the absence of such things now being the justification for the modern argument "they're just savages".
Seb Member	Mon Aug 06 00:37:18 werewolf: All of which is relevant how? We were examining claims that South Africa and Zimbabwe literacy rates vs democracies; and this just shows a few OECD countries. It is also true that the USA is significantly below the average.
murder Member	Mon Aug 06 10:41:11 "It is also true that the USA is significantly below the average." That's the impression you'd get from dealing with the Americans on this forum, but trust me, it's much much worse. ;oP
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Aug 06 10:59:06 The folks in those African nations are no longer 'savages'. It is just that they are taking over the governments and they have never been given the chance to learn how to properly run a country. They will catch up some day, hopefully. It depends on their sending some young people to a college where they can learn the difference between capitalism and socialism.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Aug 06 11:03:39 " Your shit would stink too if you were occupied for over a hundred years" Ya that would explain why civilization never really developed in africa despite 100s of 1000s of years of human habitation. The last 200 must be the reason. Lol cuckhat you retard.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Aug 06 11:04:19 "they're just savages" being the reason for the completely destruction of local institutions and proceses; the absence of such things now being the justification for the modern argument "they're just savages". Lol seb is retarded too.
smart dude Member	Mon Aug 06 11:08:46 Lets stop being racist dickwads. Obviously if colonial powers didn't occupy Africa, these people would have developed cell phones, indoor plumbing, internal combustion engines, automatic weapons, and the Internet far, far sooner. Just look at the North Sentinelese people. We've left them alone, allowed them their independence and autonomy. And they're already sending rocket ships to Andromeda!
Seb Member	Tue Aug 07 03:44:13 Smart dude: Sentinel island is 6km wide, with a population estimated between 40 and 400. It's is clearly a good model for an entire continent of people. Much of Africa prior to colonisation had significantly more sophisticated and advanced civilisations than what we know of the sentinelese. This idea that we rocked up and everyone in Africa was a Hunter gatherer tribesmen wearing a grass skirt and holding a pointed stick is nonsense.
Pillz Member	Tue Aug 07 10:12:41 Explain the development of megalithic architecture in Sub-Saharan Africa to us Seb. A staple of civilization. Tell us when that started, and under what influences..
Pillz Member	Tue Aug 07 10:22:06 I mean, even much of Europe was basically uncivilized. Northern Europe was well behind the curve, maybe even societially less advanced than the mongol/germanic/Turkic steep peoples. But by all accounts, seemly well ahead of Africa. We can argue that the Sahara was a barrier that prevented cross cultural exchange, but it seems pretty clear that civilization developed naturally even in South America. Africans dropped the ball, even when the geographic obstacles were conquered they just never achieved what basically every other group on earth did. And again, all limited to spheres of Christian or Islamic influence.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Aug 07 10:23:36 What was the typical tech level of ss africa when europe showed up with late renaissance and industrial age tech? Bronze age? Late stone age? Early iron age? Lol@seb.
smart dude Member	Tue Aug 07 10:54:26 Pre-Cambrian
Seb Member	Tue Aug 07 11:37:31 Sam, Pillz: I see. And in your minds institutional and organisational sophistication (we were talking of democracy) hinges on material technology? By that basis, we would say a corrupt dictatorship with no rule of law that can smelt iron and make gunpowder is more advanced democratically than clasdical Athens?
Pillz Member	Tue Aug 07 11:46:12 Yes, classical Athens is exactly analogous to Sub-Saharan Africa Seb. Good point.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Aug 07 11:49:52 So seb you are saying that some civilizations are dramatically better or worse than others? We can quote you on that?
Seb Member	Wed Aug 08 02:12:13 Pillz: I don't think that's the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that metalworking isn't related to instiutional strength on account of governance structures not being made of steel; which you appear to get under the impression that it is. Sam: You do understand what a Liberal is right? I mean a civilisation built on your system of philosophy would be fundamentally inferior for example.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Aug 08 09:38:55 Sebs system(pure leftism and identity politics)=detroit Sams system(an intelligent mix)=zurich, boston, modern suburbia
murder Member	Wed Aug 08 15:39:38 I guess that's a no on my proposal.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 08 15:46:37 Sam: You haven't the faintest understanding of good governance or the principles it works by. Anything you tried to run would be a smoking wasteland within a month.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Aug 09 14:22:04 Says the person that thinks its easier to abandon a settlement rather than dig a basement. Lol.
Seb Member	Thu Aug 09 17:28:34 Sam Adams: It can be. This is obvious. Particularly if what was prime livestock area but isn't now because every three years your whole herd/flock etc. die.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Aug 09 17:59:36 Then livestock will turn into grains you whining moonbats are demanding people give up meat anyway. You should be happy.
Pillz Member	Thu Aug 09 19:00:09 Someone retarded to think that megalithic architecture = steel cant have the intelligence to be happy. Like an organic automaton that lacks consciousness
Seb Member	Fri Aug 10 05:32:30 Sam: Grains tends to have a lower value, land suitable for cattle isn't necessary suitable for grains, and it's not clear the climate would support that either. So on the basis that change hardly ever happens until after the first catastrophe, you will be looking at people who: 1. Probably had some pre-existing debt 2. Have lost the bulk of their capital but retained their debt 3. Have no current source of income 4. The capital assets they own are now likely to be worth less than they were in terms of potential outcome 5. Now face large capital investments to make the environment safely habitable, in a financial situation where few would be inclined to lend to them. In an environment where financial products might be rather simplistic. I think many, under those circumstances, will migrate. This has happened before, it is naive to think it will not happen again. Pillz: The only one who has produced any comment in relation to megalithic architecture or even thinks materials are relevant to this discussion is you. You seem to have made some inferences that I did anything other than dismiss your comment as irrelevant.
Pillz Member	Fri Aug 10 12:08:45 I didn't bring up materials. Nobody did but you with your comment about structures out of steel. You can't honestly consider cultures that are illiterate, lack megalithic architecture, and in many cases even irrigation, to be on par developmentally with societies that did and which did develop democracy (for example). Blacks were far, far behind the curve societally and materially when compared to just about any other group. The fact that they still can't observe and mimic democratic institutions with any success is testament to the fact those developmental deficits above are likely just symptoms of an innate inability to adapt to complex ideas/abstractions
Pillz Member	Fri Aug 10 12:12:34 And again, anything that Africans achieved between antiquity and the eventual conquest of the continent was done under primarily Muslim influence, sometimes Christian. And never really on par with the models they were working with.
Pillz Member	Fri Aug 10 12:12:51 Social, cultural, institutional models.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Aug 10 12:39:16 >>is testament to the fact those developmental deficits above are likely just symptoms of an innate inability to adapt to complex ideas/abstractions<< Pillz, this is most certainly not a correct way to describe it. Even if you are trying to be racist. There are fairly natural reasons for why advanced agriculture arose where it did. Survival in Africa selected for different traits and different models of society. Geographic isolation, no beasts of burden, rampant malaria (much worse historically) and other tropical vectors all posed as unassailable obstacles for civilization building in most of Africa. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10519-015-9773-z As you see educated Nigerians as far as sexual selection goes, behave like white people. And such a pattern, matters after mmm I don't know, say 300 generations.
Pillz Member	Sat Aug 11 10:56:30 I don't think that the excuses about geography and climate hold true. And your example does little to disprove my thesis. A habit they picked up, remains to be seen what happens to Nigeria.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 11 12:36:36 A habit endemic to large scale living in cities, where complex things like house of learning could arise. Bush people do not live lives where assortative mating based on educational attainment is possible. Your thesis makes no sense. The studied phenomena looks to be universal and at around the same rate. They picked it up and normalized to western rates within a couple of decades? More likely that life and gives status is very different in an urban setting than living in a village with 4 other extended families as hunter gatherers. Sorry, you can't wave away things like geography, no suitable beasts of burden and vectors and parasites as insignificant things in the way of building advanced civilization. IQ is 80% heritable, so yes mating patterns that can only really emerge in urban settings matter quite a lot over 1000-2000 years. It is the same reason Ashkenazi jews stand out, there is no magic juice, they had a distinct matrilineal culture, where intelligence and education in a man were valued even higher for their daughters than marrying them off with someone who had money and status. "A habit they picked up" I don't think this is true as explained above, but let us grant you that this habit was picked up recently, you know, like democracy, capitalism, central banking, metallurgy and so on. Most civilization "pick up" habits from others through the dissemination of information, geography provide obstacles. Seems like this all hinges on Africans not only being inferior, but irredeemably inferior. The evidence supports no such thing.
murder Member	Sat Aug 11 13:18:44 "no suitable beasts of burden" Am I going to have to say it? :o)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Aug 11 13:43:29 Sure, why not, we are already talking about genetics and average IQ, how could it hurt at this point?
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