Utopia Talk / Politics / Paramount, Seb, you guys OK?

Asgard Member	Tue Aug 14 14:01:11 Sweden is burning, London is under attack... and the day isn't even over yet. I hope you're doing ok.
Asgard Member	Tue Aug 14 14:01:36 By the way, how is diversity working for you?
murder Member	Tue Aug 14 14:03:34 And where are you posting from? :o)
Asgard Member	Tue Aug 14 14:11:50 Not a touche, murder. Keep in mind that I don't boast how great the system works where I am, nor do I support my government, in any form or fashion.
murder Member	Tue Aug 14 14:22:11 But I'm assuming you like diversity when you're benefiting from it.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 14 14:28:58 ASgard, you realise I work in Westminster right? This happened literally less than 100m fromm where I work - the impact was I had to make a slight detour. One person was taken to hospital for minor injuries. This is hardly the IRA and the 80's, and it will take more than that to turn me into a white supremacist.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Aug 14 14:44:29 "the impact was I had to make a slight detour." The flag will be flying at half mast for the rest of the month.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Aug 14 14:54:24 The uk is preparing to ban cars. No one needs to carry a knife.
Asgard Member	Tue Aug 14 15:10:39 I know it's hard ignoring Grande's concert, the Olympics, the beheading of the drummer, the truck on the bridge... but you can try, Seb.
Paramount Member	Tue Aug 14 15:25:57 That some kids sets cars on fire doesn’t have to do with diversity. There is diversity almost everywhere innthe world. This is a local problem where we happen to have a few idiots who has not been raised properly.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 14 15:37:26 Nim: Indeed. Asgard: The Olympics? Yes. Nearly as bad as the horrific bowling green massacre. Anyway, compare Ariana Grande with Omagh bomb. Stop being gutless.
murder Member	Tue Aug 14 15:56:47 "The Olympics?" I'm assuming that he's referring to Munich.
patom Member	Tue Aug 14 16:52:09 Seb, keep your head on a swivel and your ears on alert.
hood Member	Tue Aug 14 16:54:11 "Stop being gutless." I have to say, this is one thing I agree with Seb on. Stop being a fucking coward.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 14 17:32:13 Murder: That would be ... odd. The others being recent UK terror attacks.
Seb Member	Tue Aug 14 17:35:29 Patom: I'm more likely to be killed by a car than by a terrorist. Even working in Whitehall. And I'm less likely to be killed by a terrorist *now* than I would have been in the 80s. The IRA launched a mortar attack on no10 when I was a kid. And in the 90s/2000s a republican splinter group shot an RPG at the MI6 building. But I appreciate the concern.
murder Member	Tue Aug 14 18:41:31 "That would be ... odd." It would be odd, but the alternative is that he has manufactured a false memory.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 02:06:51 Murder: I think it likely he has done precisely that. Munich in that list makes as much sense as throwing in the assassination of arch Duke Ferdinand. Black September weren't even people seeking refuge in the west, so in the wrong place, wrong century, with the wrong participants.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 03:24:02 The 7 July 2005 London bombings, often referred to as 7/7, were a series of coordinated terrorist suicide attacks in London, United Kingdom, which targeted commuters travelling on the city's public transport system during the morning rush hour. Four Islamic terrorists separately detonated three bombs in quick succession aboard London Underground trains across the city and, later, a fourth on a double-decker bus in Tavistock Square.[1] The train bombings occurred on the Circle line near Aldgate and at Edgware Road, and on the Piccadilly line near Russell Square. Fifty-two people, all UK residents but of 18 different nationalities, were killed and more than 700 were injured in the attacks, making it Britain's deadliest terrorist incident since the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 near Lockerbie, Scotland, as well as the country's first Islamist suicide attack. The explosions were caused by homemade triacetone triperoxide-based devices packed into backpacks. The bombings were followed two weeks later by a series of attempted attacks that failed to cause injury or damage. The 7 July attacks occurred the day after London had won its bid to host the 2012 Olympic Games.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 03:24:14 you know I meant that, seb.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 03:25:55 Either way, I assume that like Paracrap, it's just the fault of some unruly children not being raised properly? Am I right?
Average Ameriacn Member	Wed Aug 15 03:26:21 The UK should build a wall, too.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 03:27:57 You know, also, that's an interesting point... After all these bombings, killings, stabbings, rapes, car smashing... IF it were the IRA behind it, the British Army would go in and do a Bloody Sunday all over again. But since it's Muslim "unruly children that aren't being raised properly"... then you can peacefully ignore it in the name of diversity.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 03:38:21 Seb Do you see the ridiculous thing you just did? You misunderstood something, did not wait for answers, got enabled by an admitted extremist to keep spinning and accused Asgard of fabricating memory in some pathological manner. And this an easy fix, not a complex issue just a matter of error in reference. Is it possible you do this elsewhere?
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 04:23:17 Asgard: How is that "the olympics"? The Olympics were 7 years later - the fact it occurred the day after a meeting of the olympics organising committee seems weirdly tenuous connection. How the fuck am I supposed to remember an obscure detail like that! Bloody Sunday has resulted in numerous investigations and criminal proceedings (and possibly convictions), and compensation payments. So we absolutely would not "go and do that again" as we never intended to do it in the first place - a bunch of paras went rogue. If, If, there was an armed, organised Muslim paramilitary organisation engaged in a self styled "war", with daily attacks and killings, actual no go areas for police - then maybe, maybe, there might be a military dimension needed. But what we see today is far, far, far below the levels of the troubles.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 04:30:53 Nim: No. That's not what I did. I said I suspected he had done so. Which is legitimate inference: there were no attacks associated with the olympics, and the tube bombings coincidental occurring after a meeting where the olympics organising committee selected London for the 2012 is not an obvious connection. Nobody refers to the tube bombings as "the olympics". It's 7/7 or the London Tube Bombings. Or is it only you that are allowed to make inferences from mental models? It turns out that Asgard has a rather false memory of the degree of salience that olympics have to the July bombing. This might be because he overestimated the significance of such events such that his awareness of the connection to the olympics has in his mind sensationalized the event?
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 04:34:00 Between 1969 and 1998, the IRA conducted 10,000 bomb attacks. An average of over 300 a year. This does not include foiled attacks. Comparing this to five bomb attacks, some stabbings/kniffings and a ramming is somewhat hyperbolic.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 04:47:23 >>Or is it only you that are allowed to make inferences from mental models?<< You set up a false dichotomy. Either he is talking about this (to me unrelated event) or he is fabricating things pathologically. You read a lot into ONE of the references you thought was out of place. Ignoring all the other ones in the process. Because 1 point of data invalidates the pattern Asgard is trying to explain. You have a habit seb of ascribing rather nefarious or pathological motives to things you think are out of place. "It turns out that Asgard has a rather false memory of the degree of salience that olympics have to the July bombing." Yes it turns out you are still correct in some irrelevant way. This IS the salient point of Asgard, the "olympics" not the event, the relationship to other events. Bravo.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 04:58:21 >>Comparing this to five bomb attacks, some stabbings/kniffings and a ramming is somewhat hyperbolic.<< It is more than 5 attacks and as numbers indicate, Islamist attacks are the deadliest terror attacks, they are also part of a larger global and loosely connected Islamist movement. The IRA not so much. 3700 dead in the 30 fucking years vs 3000 in 9/11 alone. Not taking these things into account and the effects on public psyche, as if people are complete irrational retardes, is well, very retarded. So on the flipside, acting glib about this and misrepresenting history and statistics to win a point is very irresponsible, it will provide platforms for the ascendance of extremists who will take it seriously in a hyperbolic way.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 05:39:51 Nim: The salience of "Olympics" to the event in question is highly tenuous, the connection being it came a day after the organising committee announced London as the host city for an event in 7 years time. By that point the attack was well underway, the planning had been going on for months. The attackers cited Iraq. They had no way of knowing that the UK would be in the final round let alone win the host position. In that light, Asgard's association between the event and the Olympics does look somewhat pathological. Why does he put such emphasis on the event? Possibly because he once read the connection and had misremembered that as it occurring during the run up or the event? One cannot be sure, but the subsequent assertion that anyone must surely know that by Olympics, he must mean the tube bombings, points to the curio of the timing taking on a wholly unreasonable salience in his mind. But suffice it to say, referring to the event as being "the Olympics" seems frankly ridiculous. With regard to the substance of your post, you are welcome to your views but please don't project them on me. It seems to me you are creating the false dichotomy. He can of course be referring to this event but remembering it to be about or during the Olympics when it was not. Which is what appears to be happening. Which is a false memory, irrespective of there being the seed of the connection due to the coincidence of it being the day after national celebrations on winning the Olympic host city competition. I am glad to have corrected your model but you must now update your priors to ensure you do not make the same again. Cheerio.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 05:48:42 Nim: Asgard is explicitly arguing against taking refugees into the country. 9/11 occurred in the US and not by people resident in the US, so the causal link between that and the policy Asgard is arguing against is lost. The number of Islamist attacks in the UK stands at a handful of bombings and other minor incidents. Arguing we should adopt the stance we took during the Troubles is therefore not founded. With regard to internal threats you know very well that the UK has adopted an intelligence lead approach (which is far more powerful now than it was then) and external approach a mix of humanitarian aid, intelligence, support to other states and on occasion military intervention. The UK has taken relatively few refugees and non EU migrants from middle East countries. So, again, to Asgard's point in which he citing these attacks as supporting evidence: is it necessary to go beyond what we are doing now, and what we did in the much more serious situation of the troubles? No. And if someone flew a plane into a building and killed 3000 people here, I wouldn't say "let's deport Muslims" or whatever it is Asgard is proposing (he did suggest that previously but I hope he wasn't serious). I would look at what we can do to secure planes etc. 100% security cannot be achieved and there are other principles to consider, other freedoms to protect, and other measures to improve security that have better trade offs than the illiberal bullshit the likes of Sam, Pillz and Asgard are selling.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 06:25:36 >>and what we did in the much more serious situation of the troubles?<< More serious according to your definition of what is important, as no. incident and because of the fact that Islamist terror has only been going on for 18 years in earnest. If we take into account other variables, like the casualties and global scale, the immaterial grievances, absolutly not, it is very different. And I am for as many relevant variables as possible, not a sebed POV. There is no shortage of BS being sold, you are one of the vendors. This a defining character of you, you have good intentions when arguing against prejudice, but then you end up shitting on the bathroom floor. That is being charitable, and viewing your vending in a good light, rather than rent seeking.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 07:08:39 Nim: For the UK? I don't think anyone serious thinks Islamist terror is as big a problem as the troubles. Those were much larger in terms of terrorists, the lethality and resources they had access to, the degree of sympathy and support from a civilian community, the number, lethality and sophistication of their attacks, and the capabilities the UK had to tackle that threat with was less. The fact that there are also Islamists blowing people up in Afghanistan isn't relevant to assessing the threat to the UK. Why should we take into account such spurious variable like casualties in other countries that do not directly affect the UK and that would not be impacted by measures the UK took to tackle the domestic threat? What you are proposing is BS.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 07:10:53 Tl;Dr let's take your proposal seriously. Suppose we stopped taking refugees and deported non citizen Muslims. What would you expect to happen to the number of Islamist attacks in Afghanistan? What would happen to rate of UK attacks?
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 09:16:38 She, I’m not saying you should deport all Muslims not stop immigration. Heck, look at Israel, 25% muslims out of the total population(not counting the Palestinians!), do they stab or shoot or bomb anyone? The answe is a resounding no, and that is not because they are fearful (they’re not). They are integrated, they do don’t live in ghettos, and their religious leaders are not speaking about creating a Muslim Caliphate through death and blood. I don’t know how to resolve your very troubling issue, but you really need to start recognizing you have an issue, that warrants urgent attention. I’ll respond to the whole olympics debacle later, that was just stupid and weird.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 09:17:16 She=Seb. +1 for me phone’s autocorrect though
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 09:18:05 Nor* stop immigration.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 10:01:27 Seb Was the thread directed at UK or seb and paramount? Insinuating the authors is pointing to a specific geographic location they live in. Islamic terrorism and the broader issues of poor assimiliation or integration in norther and western Europe Asgard is talking about are not unrelated. They are to large degree facilitated by similar SJW policies. Milage varies by country in question.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 10:12:42 Naturally. Wheather or not the Tube Bombings, (2005, 7/7, the woman with the medical mask on the front page, whatever you wanna call that event) happened in response to some obscure event in Afghanistan or was in response to the glee of happiness after the Olympic announcement or just for fun, it happened as a part of a much larger conflict, across many nations, which relies on enlisting young disenfranchised individuals who are allowed to brood in their own excrement of hate and blood thirst, be them citizens or immigrants, or refugees. Is The attack in Paris that killed 250 people just the result of some young idiots goofing around jokingly, or part of a broad conflict across the whole of Europe? Now also all yourself why isn’t it happening in Eastern Europe... And yes, even Israel. How come “young idiots” are allowed to rampage and burn cars every time again and again without anyone thinking “hey, that ain’t right, and might be part of our administration’s entire way of handling these people, their cultureS (with an S), their religionS, and their innate hatred of the West, it’s values, the LGBT, democracy and freedom...”
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 10:30:47 >>“young idiots” are allowed to rampage and burn cars every time again and again without anyone thinking<< Very blunt. Swedish culture and Swedes are relative to the people and culture of the people coming here, feminized. It is perhaps one of the most feminized countries in the world. Male brutality is deaf to female scolding. There is a capacity to absorb these people, provided you implement assimilation or integrations policy. Sweden has far exceeded that capacity and not even tried anything worth the name assimilate or integrate. To do that you have to negotiate with the ”others”, to do that you need to know who you are and what you want. And be ready to take on many many conflicts. Swedish culture does not deal well with conflicts, because they have not experienced any for a very long time. They are learning, slowly.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 10:44:54 Asgard: Actually, in one of the other threads you advocated precisely that. In any case, in what way do you think we are not addressing this problem? We spend billions on sophisticated counter terrorist measures and screening measures. Many, many more plots are intercepted and the would-be-perpetrators tried and jailed through the criminal justice system. If you are expecting a 100% success you are being unrealistic, but your posts clearly indicate there is something more you specifically thing we should be doing. Put your money where your mouth is and tell me what it is you think we should do that we are not already doing.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 10:54:22 Nim: It was directed at London, and "how is diversity doing for you?" - given we sparred with eachother on this issue a day or so previously, I took it to be a continuation of the previous conversation - not least because the diversity comment relates directly to the point we disagree about. Given we are not talking about personal issues but policy issues, I'm not sure what your point is? "Islamic terrorism and the broader issues of poor assimiliation or integration in norther and western Europe" Right, but you are not able to specifically explain how it is you think that any measures that might improve integration (say) in the UK would affect broader stats? So is it not reasonable to say "the problem of islamic terrorism as it impacts the UK is best measured by things like the number of attacks in the UK?" Why do you keep trying to broaden these metrics to look at global figures? It's nonsensical. Now, you talk about integration, but a striking feature of the supposedly un-assimilated Muslim population in the UK is that all security organisations agree that Muslim communities in the UK have been far better at informing on terrorist plotters than Irish catholic communities in the UK were during the troubles. So that's something to think about - if we are going to be data driven. "to large degree facilitated by similar SJW policies. Milage varies by country in question." Again, your meaningless label SJW. Which specific policies do you mean, because all "SJW" tells me (given that there's no policy caucus that would describe themselves as such or claim that to be the primary motivation) is that there's a body of policies that you are opposed to and are making up a bogeyman to stand behind. But we are not psychic and the bodeyman is defined by you - so we cannot know what these policies are unless you are specific; and if we are to guess you will jump up and down and shout and scream we are labelling you.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 11:01:30 Asgard: It was Iraq - the participants were British and angry that the government had declared war on "their people". The attack was certainly not in response to the Olympics decision as IIRC the group were mobilised to commit the actual attack before the decision had been made, and had been planning for months. "Is The attack in Paris that killed 250 people just the result of some young idiots goofing around jokingly, or part of a broad conflict across the whole of Europe?" Both. The trend of Western born terrorists is that they normally have a pattern of failure, societal rejection, mental health issues and association with other violent crimes. Radical Islam just provides a sense of purpose and meaning. Strangely, you folks tend to jump up and down on the Islam element, but label measures to reduce the other risk factors as "SJW". "How come “young idiots” are allowed to rampage and burn cars every time again and again" They aren't. Those that do, and can be identified tend to be caught and put in prison. What more do you think we should do exactly? Bulldoze their families houses? Because that means we are abandoning the rule of law and engaging in collective punishment. Something we did not do with Irish during the troubles, which were bigger, more violent, more deadly and where the community which the terrorists perported to represent did appear to much more to support the terrorists. Nim: "Swedish culture and Swedes are relative to the people and culture of the people coming here, feminized." I don't believe in gender bias - he says - while engaging in gender bias.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 11:40:12 How is it biased to say that Sweden is the most feminist country in the world? And that is boast of being the most equal (it is in the top) country in the world? For masculine cultures, see Russia or throw dart in MENA. We both agree Sweden is a better place by a light year. It is the disparity that creates the friction. And there we go again, you don’t understand what someone is saying and read into it your usual sexist/racist spiel. Surprise!
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 11:40:25 Seb, you wish I’d say “deport them all!” and I may have said that to taunt, but I’m not in a taunting mood now. Realistically, humanely, and honestly, you should think about cutting welfare, have people start working and not wallow about in their ghettoes; limit immigration, screen refugees through risk metrics, impose zero tolerance (jail for car burners? Why not deportation?) , cut funding to Islamic schools (that has to be coupled with the acceptance of the fact that therein lies the rap: they teach murder, anti democracy sentiment, rape culture, etc), investigate in all seriousness cases of “honor killings” and do not dismiss them as “their own thing and we do not interfere so as to not appear colonialist”. I got more if you need’em.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 11:44:37 “Irish during the troubles, which were bigger, more violent, more deadly and where the community which the terrorists perported to represent did appear to much more to support the terrorists. ” Facepalm. What a rookie mistake. Islam is about saying in public “we want no trouble, Sir” but in private (or in sermons...) they preach the exact opposite. That’s a calculated and proven strategy for crying out loud!!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 15 11:45:02 If it isn’t clear seb, feminization of MENA is a good thing! The salient point was the capacity and failure of Sweden to implement a cohesive policy.
Paramount Member	Wed Aug 15 11:50:25 ”(jail for car burners? Why not deportation?)” What if they are born in Britain and has english citizenship? Where are you gonna deport them to? ”cut funding to Islamic schools [...] they teach murder, anti democracy sentiment, rape culture, etc” Do you have some source that backs up your claim that Islamic schools teach murder and rape? What do they teach in Jewish schools then? How to cheat and kill the goy?
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 11:56:08 Paramount, use your brain. I mean that for deportable people. I.e immigrants and refugees.
Paramount Member	Wed Aug 15 11:56:35 Okay.
Asgard Member	Wed Aug 15 11:57:32 And yes. Later as Jewish Layers they usually join the firm “Dowey, Cheethum and Howe”. Standard procedure.
Seb Member	Wed Aug 15 15:56:56 Asgard: We have record levels of employment. Most of the terrorist attacks have been committed by people who are either employeed or career criminals. Why will cutting benefits help? Immigration is limited (and almost all attacks are not by immigrants). We already screen refugees in depth. Immigrants who commit refugees can and are deported as it is a violation of visa t&C's. There is no state funding for Islamic schools. Honor killings are a crime, are investigated. Now we've dealt with your fantasies, is there anything here we are not doing you think should be done? Re community support, you understand this is the assessment of the outgoing head of MI5 based not on professed statements but the number of intelligence leads and reports *from* the respective communities. Muslims are far more likely to turn people in than the Irish ever were.
Asgard Member	Thu Aug 16 03:12:50
Seb Member	Thu Aug 16 03:23:28 *no funding for Islamic schools that teach the things you suggest. Religious schools are eligible for funding but are subject to curriculum and inspection.
Asgard Member	Thu Aug 16 10:28:42 Well, there are two options then: either you got an issue, or everything is just great. If everything’s just great, then all of whatever it is your country is doing seems to work. If there is an issue, I guess you need to find better ideas. Which is it?
Seb Member	Fri Aug 17 12:08:22 No. False dichotomy. There are problems, there are robust mmeasures in place. 100% success is never guaranteed and additional measures to increase security must weigh the costs against the benefits.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Aug 17 13:46:46 No that wasn’t a false dichotomy, it was actually a correct one. Either things are just great or you have problems, or even A problem would mean it isn’t _just_ great. It is arguably not a very useful categorization. When was the last time everything was _just_ great? These terrorist attacks are part of the problem. Another part are all those grooming and pedophila rings in the UK. Where the police didn’t do their job, because they aint racist. Anyway all this boils down to, you seb, being the type of person whose glib attitude towards the percieved problems of the pleb together with his obsession about microscopic inequalities he can’t prove, I can totally see how I would be convinced to vote leave. Here these people are, worried about terrorist attacks and immigrants taking their jobs, and in walks seb, ”you an aweful racist and sexist lot the whole hetronormative white bunch of you. Can’t see that the big issues of today is female representation on company boards and in IT!” You may as well come from different fucking planets, but still you need to live together, on an island. You deserve to go down with the Titanic, that is how I feel about this. But you won’t, you have a fancy degree from a fancy school, you can move to Sweden. Here we are where you would want the UK to be. We have more Muslims, take in more immigrants (even now when we have cut back we sre still taking it many more than the UK) more automobile related fires, more ethnic enclaves and gender neutral daycare. Your girls, I mean your offspring, will love it! And everyone can speak english so because your english accent will make you sound smarter to the champagne socialists you will inevitably befriend, they will not insist you learn Swedish. So when will you move?
Seb Member	Sat Aug 18 02:53:52 Nim: Hush.
Seb Member	Sat Aug 18 02:56:51 It's clear from "issue" Asgard means an insufficiently managed one as he says "if you have an issue, I guess you need to find better ideas". Of course if he simply means there is an issue, then the falacy is in that proposition instead.
jergul large member	Sat Aug 18 05:34:51 Seb Robust measures at some point need to revolve around social and economic inclusion. Islamist issues in the UK could easily be framed within the context of class conflict (lumpen prolitariate opting for opium of the masses before going classic nihilist in public spaces).
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:02:41 jergul: Not entirely clear what you are saying here - but I think it more the other way around. Social and economic alienation (as a consequence of intersection of race, immigration generational dynamics and class) resulting in a drift to low level crime and nihilistic outlook. "Religion" - or lets just say Islamic Extremism just offers a rationalising framework that re-defines success as killing lots of people which is eminently more achievable than conventional measures. A point which Nim often gets annoyed about and seems unable to grasp: almost all the western born islamic terrorists (which is to say the bulk of the perpetrators of terrorist attacks in the west) have followed a pattern of petty crime, finding Islam, being pretty bad at following the basic tenets of Islam (as if, say, they were principally only interested in the rationale for spectacular violence) in the year immediately prior to their attacks. Which of course normally overlaps almost entirely with the planning. This mirrors a lot of the right wing extremists, who "find" politics only a short period of time before embarking on violence. I suspect very strongly the key features are: male, socially isolated, economically unsuccessful, looking for alternative ways to feel they have succeeded.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:07:35 Nim: "Where the police didn’t do their job, because they aint racist." As I have pointed out again and again, this is not an accurate report of what the report says and the obsession with pulling that one feature out is indicative of the degree of dishonesty going on here. The reports repeatedly cited the most important fact was that the girls were poor, apparently compliant, and the police viewed them as sluts and prostitutes. This is not an example of the police being afraid of being racist, it is an expression of the police sexism and racism: "What sort of a person consorts with the darkies and drinks and has sex like that? Little white trash slappers, they are worthless, its not worth the bother" - to sum it up. It was only once a middle class kid was involved that the police finally moved into action. The police have no problem tackling other criminal activities when they are minorities (the opposite normally); so it seems absurd to suggest that was what was going on here. It was the council workers that were accused of refusing to spell out the nationalities of the perpetrators for fear of being identified as racist, but as the perpetrators were well known and had all been referred to the police, again, this seems a rather minor point to seize upon.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:13:40 "Anyway all this boils down to, you seb, being the type of person whose glib attitude towards the percieved problems of the pleb" AS I have pointed out, I'm rather more interested in "the problems of the pleb" than you are, given you seem hell bent on turning everything into a conversation about immigration when this is demonstrably not the cause of any of the key issues that the pleb complain about but commonly attribute to immigration. "together with his obsession about microscopic inequalities he can’t prove," Says the man now going on about immigration "I can totally see how I would be convinced to vote leave." I can too: you are easily influenced and happily absorbing like a sponge all sorts of alt-right bollocks without the basic ability to critically appraise any of it. You are exactly the kind of monumental useful idiot that the likes of Farrage love. By the way, I've got £350m a week of the NHS for you. "Here these people are, worried about terrorist attacks" Yup, and what are we doing about it? Lots. But you want to do a few eye catching initiatives that would have no affect on the actual problem (as the bulk of the terrorists are actually third generation Brits) instead. "and immigrants taking their jobs," Except immigrants are not taking their jobs which is again a demonstrable fact. Now how that is communicated in a campaign is a separate issue, suffice it I'm not going around telling someone who is worried about immigration they should focus on board composition instead. Amazingly, some of us who are not idiots can keep more than one strand of thought in their heads at the same time.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 19 15:18:24 >>Amazingly, some of us who are not idiots can keep more than one strand of thought in their heads at the same time.<< No, no you can't, that is the point. You have taken on too many thoughts and the house of cards is coming down.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:21:20 "Nut you won’t, you have a fancy degree from a fancy school, you can move to Sweden." Very kind of you to offer but I don't think so. You've got a party full of NAZI's on the way into power. And for all your obsession about immigrants, you are doing very little it seems to build the kind of capabilities needed to actually protect the country. If you actually cared about terorrism, you'd be demanding stronger powers for signals interception with appropriate regulatory controls and massive investment in your intelligence agencies instead of waffling on about refugees. This is how we know you are actually just grinding a social issues axe using terrorism as a pretext - the complete failure to advocate for effective measures outside of the area that you have a bee in a bonnet about. Should you need to up sticks and move when you discover your erstwhile political adversaries don't actually care that much about what prayer book you do or don't read from when they say "Muslim"; do let me know and we'll see if we can put you up.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:23:18 Nim: "You have taken on too many thoughts and the house of cards is coming down." Gosh, if you really can't imagine how it is possible to talk about income and wealth distribution without talking about immigration or gender equality without "the house coming down" - as you put it - you really do need to think again about this whole micro-dosing thing.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 19 15:23:21
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 20 01:00:56 I can imagine you talking about it, but of course I don’t put much value in talk, with talk being so cheap these days. I rather see how things are going for you.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 20 01:59:13 And what we see is half the net migration of Sweden in a 5 year period and your country decided to leave. You have the same type of problem as Sweden. You took in people and then assumed that through classical liberal voodoo everything from social cohesion to integration would sort itself out. http://ass...73/The_Casey_Review_Report.pdf Reading the recommendation it looks like you have failed at the same things Sweden has failed at, you just had less people to handle. And you think the UK should have done more in terms of numbers.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 20 03:39:37 Nim: You know our net migration figures are largely fucked as we don't systemically count people out? Counting in is via actuals, but as we don't do checks on outbound we use a survey method that looks at a sample of exit locations during working hours on weekdays. This is why HO has been focusing on students as they got the idea that they were responsible for a huge chunk of thenet migration. Students tending to return on cheap late night flights. And the bulk of the opposition to migration is to eastern Europeans, and polski shops appearing which isincompatible with membership period. Finally, the areas that most support leave and most rate immigration as an issue are the areas with least immigrants, and the area's most tolerant of immigration and remain are the areas with most migrants. Which is suggestive of immigration fear being largely based on myths and prejudice.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 20 03:43:14 So the evidence is social cohesion for recent immigrants is pretty good. It's the places where there are no migrants that believe the bollocks they read on brieybart about no go areas - and while I'm up for listening to people to understand how to persuade them, I'm not up for adoption of demonstrably harmful policies just because a bunch of people have got some erroneous ideas based on demonstrably false facts. If you are, that's strangely postmodern of you. Some of us believe in reason, empiricism and ovjective,evidence based policy rather than blithely following social constructs as being equally valid "interpretations".
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 20 04:37:20 ”I'm not up for adoption of demonstrably harmful policies just because a bunch of people have got some erroneous ideas based on demonstrably false facts.” Because you use alternative facts and fake news to form your opinions. Some of us don’t only believe in reason, empiricism and objective evidence, we can actually use and unerstand them! Keep trying.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 20 04:56:08 Nim: "Fake News"... You literally just used the "immigrants take our jobs" argument that's been shown time and time again not to be true.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 20 04:58:47 No, I _literally_ (do you know what that means?) said that is what these people worry about and then pointed to the gap between their worries and yours. Swoosh!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Aug 20 05:02:07 You even changed ”their” to ”my” in your ”quote” of me ”literally” saying that. This isn’t even post modern, this just sebing. Carry on, I will meet you where ever you set the bar.
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