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Utopia Talk / Politics / When Syrian refugees don't know English
Average Ameriacn
Member
Sat Aug 18 00:35:20
I bet that will teach her and she will learn to speak our language before she turns 88.

http://the...-year-old-woman-who-spoke-poor

Georgia police defend tasing 87-year-old grandmother

By Aris Folley - 08/17/18

A police department in Georgia is defending its decision to tase a 87-year-old grandmother who was cutting dandelion greens outside her house.

Martha Al-Bishara was tased outside her Chatsworth home when she was encountered by a local police officer as she was cutting leaves with a knife last week. After noticing the tool, the officer asked the woman to drop the knife and when she didn’t, he tased her.

Bishara’s grandson, Stephen Douhne, said his grandmother, who emigrated to the United States from Syria decades ago, speaks very little English.

Bishara was initially spotted cutting the leaves by an employee at a nearby Boys and Girls Club, who then contacted the Chatsworth Police Department, according to a police report obtained by The New York Times.

The report claims that the woman ignored the officer’s commands to drop the knife and kept walking.

Douhne told the newspaper that another officer drew a gun on Bishara before the other man tased her.

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She was later placed in handcuffs and reportedly arrested for criminal trespass and obstruction of a police officer. Douhne said his grandmother has since received treatment at a hospital and has been released.

“She did not know what was going on,” Douhne said. “When she was growing up, they didn’t even hardly have school for women.”

Local Police Chief Josh Etheridge defended his department against criticism of its handling of the case and how he and the officer on the scene, Steven Marshall, handled the situation.

“And I know everyone is going to say: ‘An 87-year-old woman? How big a threat can she be?’” Etheridge told The Daily Citizen-News of Dalton earlier this week. “She still had a knife.”

“I completely understand, and if I hadn’t been there and it would come across my desk, that is the first thing I would ask as well,” he continued.

“Why did we tase an 87-year-old woman?” he added. “I guess in that circumstance, I am glad I was there and saw it firsthand and understand why it occurred. An 87-year-old woman with a knife still has the ability to hurt an officer.”

But the woman’s relatives said the local officers should have shown more patience to the grandmother.

"If three police officers couldn't handle an 87-year-old woman, you might want to reconsider hanging up your badge," said Solomon Douhne, the woman's great-nephew.
Dukhat
Member
Sat Aug 18 00:37:47
Southern police departments for you. Racist and insensitive redneck retards.
Pillz
Member
Sat Aug 18 01:15:13
Many, many older European immigrants have bad or zero English. Eastern and southern Europeans.

Shes also not a refugee?
Pillz
Member
Sat Aug 18 01:25:20
Even fewer older Asians know English.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 07:54:16

Why were the cops called in the first place? She was obviously just working in her yard.

Dukhat
Member
Sat Aug 18 08:05:55
Shit tons of people that have been here generations don't know English. Like the Amish and Hasidic Jewish population.
Rugian
Member
Sat Aug 18 08:12:34
"Dukhat
Member Sat Aug 18 08:05:55
Shit tons of people that have been here generations don't know English. Like the Amish"

You are such a dumb motherfucker.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 08:45:11
"Why were the cops called in the first place? She was obviously just working in her yard."

"Bishara was initially spotted cutting the leaves by an employee at a nearby Boys and Girls Club"

"You are such a dumb motherfucker."

jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 08:46:02
Ruggy
I am almost willing to bet the majority of 87 year old Americans cannot understand English or any other language without the benefit of hearing aids.
Rugian
Member
Sat Aug 18 08:49:04
jergul, I'm not defending the actions of the police here. I'm just pointing out how monumentally stupid Dukhat is.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 08:51:29
Because he pointed out that Older Generational Amish don't speak English?
Rugian
Member
Sat Aug 18 09:01:23
I'm not sure what decade you're living in, but saying "the Amish don't know English" is just ridiculous.

For someone who regularly accuses his political opponents of being backwards ignorant idiots, Dukhat frequently comes across as a person who's never left the confines of LA.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 09:04:07
Ruggy
I just find it an interesting dilemma. Police SOP does discriminate against people with disabilities.

This is likely just a case in point.
Rugian
Member
Sat Aug 18 10:17:00
jergul,

I'd say police actually have extensive experience in dealing with people who are unable to fully comprehend what they're saying.

In any case, there's no need to speculate on this particular woman's hearing ability (though if she had a problem, the grandson presumably would have said so). This incident was likely just a case of of bad judgement mixed with a seemingly uncooperative person.
Rugian
Member
Sat Aug 18 10:20:49
For the record, the chief's excuse for why the cop didn't retreat was he was on an elevation and was afraid if he backed up he might trip and fall. Sounds pretty flimsy, but that's the story.
hood
Member
Sat Aug 18 10:31:19
I think it's pretty standard for people to ignore things they either don't understand or don't think is directed towards them. Completely natural for grandma to ignore the policeman if she doesn't speak english.

The entire department should be fired without severance or benefits for defending this bullshit.
werewolf dictator
Member
Sat Aug 18 11:06:42
police put down their own knife as example of what to do.. unholstered weapons.. pointed taser at her first to get her to stop

family says she has dementia
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 18 11:20:49
Yeah, it's pretty reasonable for an octogenarian to cut dandelions without expecting to need to comply with urgent police orders and not get shot.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 12:06:40
What was the hurry, that is a question worth asking. A little old raisin slowly walking with a knife seemingly not caring what the police are saying. Where is the urgency that doesn’t allow for patience?
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 13:29:36

Here you are Rover, fetch.

"A police department in Georgia is defending its decision to tase a 87-year-old grandmother who was cutting dandelion greens outside her house."


She was indeed outside her house.


"Bishara was initially spotted cutting the leaves by an employee at a nearby Boys and Girls Club"


The snitch was an employee at the nearby club.


"You are such a dumb motherfucker."

Damned foreigners can't speak American.


jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 15:22:49
SOPs, not police experience. Part of the problem with police brutality is the cookie cutter approach to standard operating procedures.

A typic SOP would not differentiate terribly between an 87 year old and a 23 year old with a knife.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 15:29:15
Yes, but jergul, typically not even US police taser non-compliant 87 year old women. I have no idea how many frighteningly old people have run ins with the law annually, but we would have heard about it, no?
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 15:36:55
Luckily for us, there are statistics. women 65+ have an arrest rate of 0.1 per 100 000 per year per crime category. So scores yearly in the US for "how many frighteningly old people have run ins with the law annually, but we would have heard about it, no?"
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 15:37:27
That is for violent crimes. The rates are higher for non-violent.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 15:44:38
And how many get brutalized for non compliance by police?
hood
Member
Sat Aug 18 15:54:59
"Luckily for us, there are statistics. women 65+ have an arrest rate of 0.1 per 100 000 per year per crime category. So scores yearly in the US for "how many frighteningly old people have run ins with the law annually, but we would have heard about it, no?""

Um, no. There are roughly ~23 million women ages 65+. 1 per million equates to about 23 yearly cases. Even if we assume every single case involved direct danger to a police officer, that's still only 23 per year. Not "scores yearly." Not scores ever.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 16:02:13
So 23 65+ women are arrested each year in the US, roughly. I am fairly sure in this day and age we would have heard if there was some systematic (SOP) brutalization of old folks, because as Jergul hypothesis goes, cops are punch card readers.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 16:03:22
Like I said initially. Look at the SOP

"According to surveys of police departments, rules regarding Taser use vary widely. Six of every ten departments allow “for CED use against a subject who tenses and pulls when the officer tries to handcuff him or her.” In addition, only 31% ban CED use against clearly pregnant women, 25.9% against drivers of moving vehicles, 23.3% against handcuffed suspects, 23.2% against people in elevated areas and 10% against the elderly."

Police use some kind of force in 22% of arrests and hand-cuffs in 80%.

So it would depend on your defination of brutalization.

But lets say a single digit number of times per year in the US?
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 16:05:50
Hood
That was per category of violent crimes as I wrote There were about 6. Also, a score is 20 and is pluralized as soon as 1 score is passed. 1.1 scores.

If you are going to nitpick, then try to do it right.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 16:11:43
My theory is that employees can get into all sorts of trouble if they deviate from operating procedures designed for the tasks they are set to do.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 16:39:10
Yes, but that is half your theory, the other half is that cops are punch card readers, they read the SOP and then zap people with tasers. This is the crucial part you need establish. The fact that something is allowed (and clearly police should be able to use violence, even on an old person if necessary) does not prove that cops systematically fail to differentiate between an 87 year old and a 23 year old.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 16:42:27
They follow the SOP when conditions warrant it (can I retreat safely? No! What then is the minimum force I can use to control the situation? Taser).

I though you wroted procedures for a living. You should know how they are designed.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 16:43:29
wrote. Geeze.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 17:05:25
Nonsensical irrelevancies. Where is the evidence?
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 17:08:41
What is the evidence that police have SOPs, that police are employees, and that employees can get into all sorts of trouble if they deviate from operating procedures designed for the tasks they are set to do?

I invoke common knowledge principles and feel no grounds to document this beyond that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 17:27:16
Stop acting dense. Evidence that shows that cops systematically blindly follow SOPs without batting an eye, wheel chair, 80 year old, toddler, 23 year hoodlum etc. and so on, one size fits all.

Show me the evidence, I am here to be convinced. I have not made any personal research into this, seems like a very niche area, but hey, this is a very niche space on the internet!
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 17:31:23
That is a ad absurdium fallacy. But thank you for your contribution.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 17:43:11
I disagree. You posed a hypothesis, I want evidence in support of the hypothesis. An rule book is evidence of an rule book, we need outcomes to know how cops apply those rules in the field.

So far you have shown that police rules generally allow them to use violence on most types of people. >No< surprise there for me. I am sure there is more to police rules and guidelines than the surveys (not even the rules themselves) you posted a paragraph from.

But still, we need empirical data. Because you know perhaps even if rules and guidelines are written poorly, the police (human beings) act as a filter, I have witnessed this in many workplaces. So empirical data buddy, statistics.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 17:50:57
We do not need empirical data as I am not disputing that police can act as filters and you seem to accept that SOPs are poorly written in sense that a cookie cutter approach to the population is unfair.

Empirical data would best be found in disciplinary statistics. How often do police officers suffer disciplinary measures for doing something they should not, or not doing something they should.

I am not however sure of what you think that would prove.

As to the actual case in point that you were inquiring about. Police in the US likely use brutalizing force against elderly women a single digit number of times a year.

Quantified in ball-park numbers. Yay.
hood
Member
Sat Aug 18 17:55:29
"Also, a score is 20 and is pluralized as soon as 1 score is passed. 1.1 scores."

So you're going with "I was using the literal definition, not the colloquially known definition"? Ok, rules lawyer.

And, uh, you fail at rules lawyering fyi. Technically pluralization is for any number of units not equal to 1. We would say 5 scores, 3 scores, 1.1 scores, .75 scores, .5 scores... or 1 score. Alternatively, any fractional number would be singular. One half score, five thirds score, etc.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 17:57:01
I am actually going with .6 per 100 000 and that 1.1 scores is in fact plural.

Learn to nitpick better, bro.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 18 18:03:29
0.6 per 100k and 23 million works out to scores as I originally wrote (7 score in fact).

You simply misunderstood what I wrote (0.1 in each catagory of 6 of 8 violent crime categories).

So the nits were invalid.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 18 18:13:29
>>I am not disputing that police can act as filters<<

OK fair enough.

>>you seem to accept that SOPs are poorly written in sense that a cookie cutter approach to the population is unfair.<<

They could be, but I can't really say, I have only seen information from a survey that says police are generally allowed to use force even on pregnant and the old. I am not in principle against using violence on pregnant women or old people, provided it is justified. The point is that the biggest factor in the equation is the police officer, not the general guidelines for dealing with "suspect" which could be generic and still useful, since certain processes can not be standardized beyond a basic level.

>>How often do police officers suffer disciplinary measures for doing something they should not, or not doing something they should.<<

That contains a lot of things that are unrelated to this though.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 19:24:37

I guess cold rod is under the porch with his tail between his legs, puking.

Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 20:24:05
What is there to say Hot Rod? You're wrong again, it got pointed out and you still repeated what was said. If she was "initially spotted...near the club." Evidently she wasn't not at her place of residence at the time?

But with your cognitive abilities on display in many threads and posts. This should not be any surprise that once again you are wrong about something. Shocking I know. Don't get angry because it is so easy to point it out.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 20:24:22
As you know of course, suicide is an option.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 20:26:45
The 87-year-old woman often ventured outside — with a kitchen knife and a plastic bag in hand — to cut and collect the plants for cooking, her family said. She was doing just that last Friday afternoon when she crossed the street from her home in Chatsworth, Ga., and arrived at a partially fenced lot belonging to a branch of the Boys and Girls Club. There, she began gathering the plants she needed.

Someone on the property, however, called 911 to report a woman in a blue dress and a brown headscarf on their site.

Yep, Hot Rod is wrong again.

"You are such a dumb motherfucker."
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 21:37:54

LOL, I pointed out where you were wrong and, as I knew, you are too fucking gutless to admit it.

Buzz off coward you are too much the slime to be bothered with.


I guess it is time to change your handle again.

:)=

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 21:38:25

Now you made me puke.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 21:41:11
*- :(=
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 22:35:18
No you didn't. It, once again, was pointed out where you went wrong. Care to point out where I was wrong there Pedophile? Again, suicide is an option.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 22:36:08
This is another thread that should be archived for your utter stupidity of being wrong once again and then being in denial.
Cold Rod
Member
Sat Aug 18 22:38:36
"Why were the cops called in the first place? She was obviously just working in her yard. " -Retarded Rod

"She was doing just that last Friday afternoon when she crossed the street from her home in Chatsworth, Ga., and arrived at a partially fenced lot belonging to a branch of the Boys and Girls Club." -Fact

Good job for being wrong again.

"You are such a dumb motherfucker."

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sat Aug 18 23:24:11

LOL.


Cold Rod
Member
Sun Aug 19 06:20:42
The only response you can have other than acknowledging for being wrong again.

Suicide is an option, Hot Rod.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Aug 19 08:41:22

I was laughing at myself fool.

And no, I do not check out every post that is posted here. I take it at face value.

If you or others want to do that it is fine with me. I'm not going to waste my time checking out every article.

It takes a fool to do so.

Memory Lane
Member
Sun Aug 19 09:38:58
I remember Hot Rod making this very claim over a year ago;

"I am not going to research every OP, to learn every esoteric detail about the subject, before posting." -Hot Rod

I drink and remember things.
Memory Lane
Member
Sun Aug 19 09:39:29
**Over a decade ago.

I drink and make typos, but remember things.
delude
Member
Sun Aug 19 09:40:26
"'m not going to waste my time checking out every article.

It takes a fool to do so. "

As been said by many posters over many years. You hate facts.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 19 10:11:53
Well Hot Rod quote is reasonable, it is unreasonble to research every detail of something before one has an opinion about it on UP. Though, this is usually not the magnitude of research people demand of Hot Rod or other posters. It is ok the be wrong about things.
Delude
Member
Sun Aug 19 11:04:04
It isn't an opinion when declaring with absolutes with evidence of the contrary and still denying it when revealed.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 19 11:27:49
Well no, that would be Hot Roding. But without context.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Aug 19 11:32:41

Sun Aug 19 08:41:22

Cold Rod
Member
Sun Aug 19 12:44:07
Lol timeline of Hot Rod's denial of facts.

Hot Rod's claim without reading OP, the article included.

FACTS are introduced.

Hot Rod attempts to manipulate details. Get's called out for it.

Hot Rod makes a taunt.

FACTS represented again.

Hot Rod makes false claim that FACTS are not FACTS and they are wrong.

More FACTS, cannot be denied FACTS. Hot Rod crumbles and uses retarded defense that he isn't going to look into details of matter, even though all information is in OP.

Hot Rod again shown how wrong he is.

Suicide is an option, Hot Rod.

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Aug 19 12:48:42

"Hot Rod attempts to manipulate details. Get's called out for it."


Here is what I supposedly manipulated.

"A police department in Georgia is defending its decision to tase a 87-year-old grandmother who was cutting dandelion greens outside her house."

Cold Rod
Member
Sun Aug 19 14:23:22
And you were corrected about the details that you wanted to still deny with facts still within the OP.

Yes, you continued to manipulate to fit your own version of events. You do this all the time. Just like the other thread "duh where was I wrong?"

Suicide is an option, hot rod.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Aug 19 17:21:28

"I was laughing at myself fool.

And no, I do not check out every post that is posted here. I take it at face value.

If you or others want to do that it is fine with me. I'm not going to waste my time checking out every article.

It takes a fool to do so."

You are wasting my time Rover.


-30-


Cold Rod
Member
Sun Aug 19 17:28:17
Suicide is an option, Hot Rod.
Paramount
Member
Mon Aug 20 07:09:36
I think in old people in general should get tased once in a while. All who are 50+
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