Utopia Talk / Politics / The resistance

Hot Crack Member	Wed Sep 05 15:42:01 I Am Part of the Resistance Inside the Trump Administration I work for the president but like-minded colleagues and I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations. Sept. 5, 2018 The Times today is taking the rare step of publishing an anonymous Op-Ed essay. We have done so at the request of the author, a senior official in the Trump administration whose identity is known to us and whose job would be jeopardized by its disclosure. We believe publishing this essay anonymously is the only way to deliver an important perspective to our readers. We invite you to submit a question about the essay or our vetting process here. President Trump is facing a test to his presidency unlike any faced by a modern American leader. It’s not just that the special counsel looms large. Or that the country is bitterly divided over Mr. Trump’s leadership. Or even that his party might well lose the House to an opposition hellbent on his downfall. The dilemma — which he does not fully grasp — is that many of the senior officials in his own administration are working diligently from within to frustrate parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations. I would know. I am one of them. To be clear, ours is not the popular “resistance” of the left. We want the administration to succeed and think that many of its policies have already made America safer and more prosperous. But we believe our first duty is to this country, and the president continues to act in a manner that is detrimental to the health of our republic. That is why many Trump appointees have vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump’s more misguided impulses until he is out of office. The root of the problem is the president’s amorality. Anyone who works with him knows he is not moored to any discernible first principles that guide his decision making. Although he was elected as a Republican, the president shows little affinity for ideals long espoused by conservatives: free minds, free markets and free people. At best, he has invoked these ideals in scripted settings. At worst, he has attacked them outright. In addition to his mass-marketing of the notion that the press is the “enemy of the people,” President Trump’s impulses are generally anti-trade and anti-democratic. Don’t get me wrong. There are bright spots that the near-ceaseless negative coverage of the administration fails to capture: effective deregulation, historic tax reform, a more robust military and more. But these successes have come despite — not because of — the president’s leadership style, which is impetuous, adversarial, petty and ineffective. From the White House to executive branch departments and agencies, senior officials will privately admit their daily disbelief at the commander in chief’s comments and actions. Most are working to insulate their operations from his whims. Meetings with him veer off topic and off the rails, he engages in repetitive rants, and his impulsiveness results in half-baked, ill-informed and occasionally reckless decisions that have to be walked back. “There is literally no telling whether he might change his mind from one minute to the next,” a top official complained to me recently, exasperated by an Oval Office meeting at which the president flip-flopped on a major policy decision he’d made only a week earlier. The erratic behavior would be more concerning if it weren’t for unsung heroes in and around the White House. Some of his aides have been cast as villains by the media. But in private, they have gone to great lengths to keep bad decisions contained to the West Wing, though they are clearly not always successful. It may be cold comfort in this chaotic era, but Americans should know that there are adults in the room. We fully recognize what is happening. And we are trying to do what’s right even when Donald Trump won’t. The result is a two-track presidency. Take foreign policy: In public and in private, President Trump shows a preference for autocrats and dictators, such as President Vladimir Putin of Russia and North Korea’s leader, Kim Jong-un, and displays little genuine appreciation for the ties that bind us to allied, like-minded nations. Astute observers have noted, though, that the rest of the administration is operating on another track, one where countries like Russia are called out for meddling and punished accordingly, and where allies around the world are engaged as peers rather than ridiculed as rivals. On Russia, for instance, the president was reluctant to expel so many of Mr. Putin’s spies as punishment for the poisoning of a former Russian spy in Britain. He complained for weeks about senior staff members letting him get boxed into further confrontation with Russia, and he expressed frustration that the United States continued to impose sanctions on the country for its malign behavior. But his national security team knew better — such actions had to be taken, to hold Moscow accountable. This isn’t the work of the so-called deep state. It’s the work of the steady state. Given the instability many witnessed, there were early whispers within the cabinet of invoking the 25th Amendment, which would start a complex process for removing the president. But no one wanted to precipitate a constitutional crisis. So we will do what we can to steer the administration in the right direction until — one way or another — it’s over. The bigger concern is not what Mr. Trump has done to the presidency but rather what we as a nation have allowed him to do to us. We have sunk low with him and allowed our discourse to be stripped of civility. Senator John McCain put it best in his farewell letter. All Americans should heed his words and break free of the tribalism trap, with the high aim of uniting through our shared values and love of this great nation. We may no longer have Senator McCain. But we will always have his example — a lodestar for restoring honor to public life and our national dialogue. Mr. Trump may fear such honorable men, but we should revere them. There is a quiet resistance within the administration of people choosing to put country first. But the real difference will be made by everyday citizens rising above politics, reaching across the aisle and resolving to shed the labels in favor of a single one: Americans. The writer is a senior official in the Trump administration. http://www...ouse-anonymous-resistance.html
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 16:00:56 And Republicans will go bonkers over the actions of Republicans. Trump's people.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 16:26:34 Yeah, Trump doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning in 2020. Hell man, he has done absolutely nothing to help the country or the people. It is deplorable how he laughs at his followers while he goes off to play another round of golf with his Hollywood buddies.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 16:34:01 "The root of the problem is the president’s amorality." that's a bingo "Meetings with him veer off topic and off the rails, he engages in repetitive rants" hmm... exactly like EVERY time he speaks... how remarkably believable
Rugian Member	Wed Sep 05 17:38:29 "Guided democracy, also called managed democracy,[1] is a formally democratic government that functions as a de facto autocracy. Such governments are legitimized by elections that are free and fair but do not change the state's policies, motives, and goals.[2] In other words, the government controls elections so that the people can exercise all their rights without truly changing public policy. While they follow basic democratic principles, there can be major deviations towards authoritarianism. Under managed democracy, the state's continuous use of propaganda techniques prevents the electorate from having a significant impact on policy.[3] " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guided_democracy
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 17:45:36 what's the name for a government led by an incompetent delusional moron child who was incapable of stating a fact?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 17:50:42 "A dear friend of mine who works for President Trump tells me he loves the guy, but that they all spend an inordinate amount of time stopping his worst impulses. He says he feels deeply betrayed by this op-ed because it will hurt all of their efforts to help the President do right" ~Eric Erickson (conservative radio host) so that's the whole Woodward book, this op-ed, & Eric's friend (+ plenty of prior reporting)... pretty solid confirmation this presidency is a disaster, adults babysitting a child
werewolf dictator Member	Wed Sep 05 18:08:17 consistent with what i think of pompeo [arrogant and huge ego.. conservative ideologue.. undermining trump] sample of pompeo writing shows similar fondness in using dashes http://www.lawfareblog.com/letter-michael-pompeo so that's my guess
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 18:14:23 would be fine by me, the more respected & known the better
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 19:00:27 moron dictator child Trump is rattled... tweet #1 "TREASON?" tweet #2 "Does the so-called “Senior Administration Official” really exist, or is it just the Failing New York Times with another phony source? If the GUTLESS anonymous person does indeed exist, the Times must, for National Security purposes, turn him/her over to government at once!" no they mustn't...
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 19:01:26 "Or even that his party might well lose the House to an opposition hellbent on his downfall." If that happens this country will get exactly what it deserves.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 19:03:32 "what's the name for a government led by an incompetent delusional moron child who was incapable of stating a fact?" Obama's version of Communism.
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 19:05:14 Rod, please die already.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 19:11:43 ^^^^^ = Guilty conscious.
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 19:40:58 I don't know what that means.
Dukhat Member	Wed Sep 05 20:34:06 So the "resistance" is actually neo-con retarded Bush Republicans who have no problems with Trump's kleptocrat policy except for the protectionism. Fucking retards all around.
Forwyn Member	Wed Sep 05 21:21:09 http://imgur.com/gallery/dgmAjxN
Rugian Member	Wed Sep 05 21:39:17 ^Exactly.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 21:50:55 This guy's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about on forums, you want him in that administration. You need him in that administration.
McKobb Member	Wed Sep 05 21:57:07 Can we get rid of this embarrassment already?
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 05 22:06:03 "This guy's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives." no, he isn't saving lives, like literally, this guy has admitted to the deep state. that shit we all thought was a joke a couple years ago, thought wasn;t real a year ago, but now, yes, it is confirmed, it exists, it is happening, we are not living in a democratic country. right or left you should be pretty nervous that some unnamed government bureaucrat is running things, and not your elected official. and to use that quote in a positive angle shows how little you understand how reprehensible that character was supposed to be.
McKobb Member	Wed Sep 05 22:07:53 I'm down for Pence to take over.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 22:08:19 do you believe these 'deep stater's are stopping Trump from doing things you'd actually approve of or batshit crazy things from the total idiot child dictator? because it's the latter, i guarantee you
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 22:09:57 "half-baked, ill-informed and occasionally reckless decisions" that would be all we got from Trump without the adults around
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 05 22:17:32 "do you believe these 'deep stater's are stopping Trump from doing things you'd actually approve of or batshit crazy things from the total idiot child dictator? " so you want to be governered by unelected people. dude, how fucking desperate are you?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 22:18:01 also it actually IS possible it has saved lives... we might've attacked NK by now, tried to assassinate some leader (or media personality for that matter if it was a bunch of Trumps running things)... or carpet bombed villages... “You should be killing guys. You don’t need a strategy to kill people.” ~Trump (allegedly), about war in Afghanistan Trump advocated for multiple war crimes during the campaign when has he shown any moral compass?
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 05 22:19:41 You are literally insane. You want to be ruled by unelected people. You embrace it. You are happy about it. There is really no reason to talk to someone who wants to be a subject.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Sep 05 22:24:06 no, i am not happy about it... perhaps you have noticed me complaining about Trump being wholly unfit for office Trump needs to go... Trump is the problem... & i have little faith that his cabinet of sycophants will do what needs done our system failed in letting him take the office & in not being able to get him out (also as to you considering Col. Jessup to be reprehensible... whose side do you think your idiot hero would've been on in that movie?)
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 05 22:25:39 Yes, the democratic system failed because the person you don't like got elected. So instead you embrace unknowned people to run the country. Dude, you are legit deranged.
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 22:30:42 Somehow this is Obama's fault. lol :o) These are Trump appointees. If they suck, his choices suck. If his choices suck, his judgement sucks. This is Trump's fault. Obama doesn't have a thing to do with it. This is what happens when an unqualified dumbass gets elected. He ran his empire into the ground, and now he's doing the same with the White House. These people are attempting to keep him from doing it to the whole nation. Don't sweat it. This is how the Reagan White House ran once he started losing his marbles.
obaminated Member	Wed Sep 05 22:32:59 hey murder, correct me if im wrong, but has anyone blamed obama for this?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 22:36:08 hood - I don't know what that means. It means that you feel guilty for having voted for a Communist that came very close to ruining this country.
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 22:36:35 "no, he isn't saving lives, like literally, this guy has admitted to the deep state." No. The deep state was about some entrenched cabal of people, all over the government, running things. Not just this administration, but all administrations. It was a pervasive, swampy entity. What this guy has admitted to is a small group of Trump officials deciding to mitigate Trump. It is not pervasive, it didn't exist before Trump was in office, it isn't entrenched or broad. You can call it a deep state if you want, but it isn't the deep state y'all been bitching about for 2 years. "we are not living in a democratic country." Drama queen. Not only is the executive branch comprised of more than just the president (and entails only 1-2 [if you count the vice] people), we have the entirety of congress all still elected. This, of course, ignores that these officials would have influence on policy no matter who was occupying the desk. "right or left you should be pretty nervous that some unnamed government bureaucrat is running things" Indeed, the left has been nervous since the fucking beginning, when it was Bannon running things or when Trump was offering the VP to that Ohio clown with an understanding Trump would just be a show-pony. We've been nervous when Trump was in charge, because the guy is an unhinged loon. And it is extremely unnerving to learn that our doubts were valid; Trump is entirely fucking unfit to hold the office he has. ----- Let me ask you this, mt: do you want congress to use the 25th? Do you want them to declare Trump unfit? Do you recognize the political suicide that would be? Declaring Trump unfit would be an admission that y'all fucked up. Hard. It would be an admission that the entire republican party was unfit, as they were supportive of the unfit president throughout the process of the election and for much of his current term. Is this the outcome you want? Or rather, do you think that is an outcome that would ever happen? Republicans have been pretty straightforward about putting party before country. There's no way they'd sign their own death warrant by declaring their leader unfit for duty. So, yes. This is indeed concerning. That republicans are so spineless and weaselly, that they'd put their party before the country, that Trump's own appointees would conspire behind his back because they see it as the only viable option, is really fucking concerning. Get your fucking shit together. If it's gotten this bad, nut the fuck up, buttercup, and admit that y'all were wrong and declare Trump unfit to hold office. At this point, defending Trump is defending willful ignorance.
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 22:37:25 "It means that you feel guilty for having voted for a Communist that came very close to ruining this country." No, that isn't a remotely valid interpretation of what you said.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 22:39:14 What interpretation do you think I meant?
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 22:40:28 I have no idea, but "Guilty conscious" has nothing to do this communist stuff. (tip: I was mocking your ignorance and your inability to choose the correct word)
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 22:41:47 Forwyn: Impeachment is the House. The trial is the Senate. "no, he isn't saving lives, like literally, this guy has admitted to the deep state." obaminated: That's not possible. I've been assured by the President that anonymous sources are fake, so no one admitted to anything. Also fake is anything printed in the New York Times. So sleep well, because absolutely nothing is going on.
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 22:48:33 "hey murder, correct me if im wrong, but has anyone blamed obama for this?" Here? Possibly. I don't want to point a finger and start a debate that leads nowhere. But yeah, Trump crazies all over are blaming Obama and Obama "holdovers" ... despite this obviously being Trumps own stupid appointments. They have to blame Obama. The only alternative is to admit that their Dear Leader isn't quite as competent as they need to believe he is.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Sep 05 22:48:37 hood, "adjective aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc. fully aware of or sensitive to something (often followed by of): conscious of one's own faults; He wasn't conscious of the gossip about his past. having the mental faculties fully active: He was conscious during the operation." It means that you have guilt for having knowingly and willfully supported Obama because you know as well as I do that Obama's communist leanings make him the worst president ever. That is a helluva lot of guilt. G'Night Comrade, pleasant dreams.
Wrath of Orion Member	Wed Sep 05 22:51:50 Goddamn, Retard Rod is such a delusional idiot.
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 22:52:38 Rod, http://www.dictionary.com/browse/conscience noun -the inner sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct or motives, impelling one toward right action -the complex of ethical and moral principles that controls or inhibits the actions or thoughts of an individual. ------------------- This is the word you were looking for, tard. I do hope you never wake up.
murder Member	Wed Sep 05 22:52:49 "right or left you should be pretty nervous that some unnamed government bureaucrat is running things, and not your elected official." obaminated: Right or left, you should be nervous that it's happening, and your elected official is oblivious to it. They are ignoring his orders ... and he doesn't realize it? Papers are disappearing from his desk, and he's not missing them? Shouldn't he be firing the people responsible for incompetence or worse? What does it tell you that he just found out about it?
hood Member	Wed Sep 05 22:54:07 I must offer a correction: "Drama queen. Not only is the executive branch comprised of more than just the president (and entails only 1-2 [if you count the vice] people)" ***** elected people. Else the sentence makes no sense.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Sep 06 00:22:20 "the person you don't like got elected" no... i did not like Ted Cruz i did not like Marco Rubio i did not like Hillary Clinton Trump is mentally unfit for office, & it's not even close... allowing him to make any decision is absurd
American Democrat Member	Thu Sep 06 02:25:00 "It means that you have guilt for having knowingly and willfully supported Obama because you know as well as I do that Obama's communist leanings make him the worst president ever." Trump is better classified as "communist leaning" due to various admissions and thought processes in regards how the state should run the internet, the press, and the removal of checks and balances. Things that Obama never advocated. But it is expected for those who have been brainwashed by Trumpism.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 05:39:53 This isn't the deep state. The deep state is normally used to refer to unelected and unappointed (non political) figures pulling strings and shaping policy to the extent that the democratically elected political executive is essentially a veneer. What this is the Presidents *own appointees* refusing to carry out his agenda because his policies, management and processes are utterly shambolic. The difference is that, like all WH staff, this supposed deep state will disappear with the present incumbent. That said, it's outrageous subverting of due process. As civil servants, even appointed ones, they should either use A25 or offer resignation. The reason they do not is because they are not loyal to the state at all, but to the party. This is also why all the checks and balances specifically designed to stop someone like trump getting to the WH have failed. At each stage loyalty to the party was placed above propriety to the state. He should not have been nominated. He should not have passed the electoral college. He should have been removed from office under a25, and congress should have impeached him for a number of things. We shall see what happens when Muller publishes. But this is precisely wCoe dhy I don't like written constitutions. There are things we don't include and can't foresee, and they are legitimized by the absence of explicit prohibition. The US should also think about whether more WH staff positions should be impartial civil servant appointees.
Paramount Member	Thu Sep 06 05:49:33 ”This isn't the deep state. The deep state is normally used to refer to unelected and unappointed (non political) figures pulling strings and shaping policy to the extent that the democratically elected political executive is essentially a veneer. ” Correct. Does AIPAC qualify as the deep state?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Sep 06 06:58:35 hood - This is the word you were looking for, tard. Yes, and since you supported Obama, which was such an egregious error, enter your sense of guilt.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 07:06:17 Paramount: No. It's not part of the executive.
Cold Rod Member	Thu Sep 06 07:09:21 Hot rod is so salty and jealous of Obama's success. 8 years. And trump will only get 4 or not even make it. So salty.
hood Member	Thu Sep 06 07:28:09 Rod, fun fact: I never voted for Obama. Perhaps you should stop trying to project your guilt onto others?
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 07:29:23 The more I think of this op ed, the more whacko it is. Ultimately the whole thing speaks to how poor Trump's judgement is. As Murder correctly states, the entire WH is appointment and serve at the presidents pleasure. The dysfunction and Trump's inability to get ahead of it are purely down to him. The buck stops in the oval office as Truman reminded everyone with his sign. But resistance without attribution, and subverting the correct process for removing an incapable leader is terrible. It means that there is no accountability for policies. And to anonymously publish the account of this tireless "service" to the country undermines both that intent and further feeds the political dynamics that threw someone as a manifestly unfit to govern into the white house in the first place. If there are grownups in the wh, this author was not one of them. A grown up would not do this.
Paramount Member	Thu Sep 06 08:04:44 So maybe the author is Hillary then? Or Iran?
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 08:06:31 No, probably still a trump staffer.
smart dude Member	Thu Sep 06 08:14:12 Seb confirms he would not kill baby Hitler.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 08:28:57 Seb: There is really no alternative to this. The Vice President will not invoke the 25th Amendment, and Congress will not remove him. Speaking publicly will only get this individual and the others replaced by even less qualified people who are more loyal to Trump.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 08:29:17 Smart Dude: As a civil servant, if I think that I am being asked to do something unwise, I advise against it, and then either chose to resign or to carry out my duty of serving the government of the day. If I think I am being asked to do something illegal, I should openly blow the whistle using the processes for doing so. The last thing you want is civil servants substituting their own personal agenda for that of the accountable public offices. Because that creates a situation where the executive is quite literally unaccountable. But this coward is clearly of the view that the 25th ammendment is unacceptable to them for the reasons hood set out earlier. So what we have here is an official who is derelict in his duty to the country twice over - imposing an agenda for which he has no mandate while also failing in his duty to remove an incapable leaders - in order to preserve the party; and doing so behind a veil of anonymity. This figure and those like him are not Nobel, they are merely different tumours in the cancer that is the Republican parties march away from the principles of democracy.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 08:30:39 murder: So be it. Do you really want to live in a country where officials feel free to make up their own policy on a whim? Might as well forget about elections altogether then.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 08:34:30 "Do you really want to live in a country where officials feel free to make up their own policy on a whim?" As opposed to what? This is what we're stuck with. And like I said, we went through this with Reagan. Presidents don't run a whole hell of a lot anyway. They just set policy directions, and then the heads of the various departments carry those instructions out as they see fit.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 08:45:42 Think about it this way ... would you have preferred if Mattis had carried out an order to assassinate Assad? At some point the rule of law needs to give way to common sense. At some point competency trumps legitimacy.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 08:53:03 Murder: I would prefer Mattis (as a cabinet member he can I think) to refuse the order as illegal, table a motion to the rest of the cabinet to invoke the 25th amendment, then failing that resign and clearly articulate why and that he had tabled a motion and Pence had refused. Because I'm not convinced everyone will ignore his orders. The problem you have here is trump is obviously a loon. But if it's ok for CS on their own initiative to decides what is too crazy to implement, you end up with a permanently ungovernable country.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 09:03:59 "But if it's ok for CS on their own initiative to decides what is too crazy to implement, you end up with a permanently ungovernable country." So you'd prefer a governable one that follows through and kills Assad? I prefer that someone who understands the ramifications be willing to short circuit that process and get fired ... if the President ever figures out that Assad hasn't been assassinated. "The problem you have here is trump is obviously a loon." No, the real problem is that ~ 50% of the electorate thought this was a good idea, and the rest of us aren't willing to purge them.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 09:08:35 murder, The US assassinated terrorist leaders all the time, I'm not sure why you think proposing to kill a guy who has repeatedly used WMDs is so far detached from reality that it justifies disobeying the president.
CrownRoyal Member	Thu Sep 06 09:16:41 This oped reads like cover-your-ass type of action by some Donald's deepshit WH appointee. Nothing is new in it, every batshit insane move has been brought up before, in reports, books or by trump himself.
CrownRoyal Member	Thu Sep 06 09:17:53 Deep state supposedly saving Bashar Assad is funny, maybe he is the author of the oped?
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 09:33:00 murder: No, as I think I pointed out, Mattis could have refused such an order, tabled article 25, and publicly resigned. In any case, what he actually did wasn't particularly out there - he interpreted it not as an order, but a request to develop options, and then convinced Trump to pick one of the options. Which is exactly what I have done on a smaller scale when asked to do things that are not sensible. If however Trump had insisted it was an order and for Mattis to kill Assad immediately, then what he should have done is as I described. Assad wouldn't have been bombed, and the issue of public accountability would remain intact.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 09:35:46 "The US assassinated terrorist leaders all the time, I'm not sure why you think proposing to kill a guy who has repeatedly used WMDs is so far detached from reality that it justifies disobeying the president." And that's why your appointees don't follow your orders. ;o) Assassinating a foreign leader is a different animal than knocking off a terrorist. There are ramifications to legitimizing the assassination of foreign leaders that you don't like. It could become a trend.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 09:37:43 "Deep state supposedly saving Bashar Assad is funny, maybe he is the author of the oped?" Unless Trump has appointed Bashar al-Assad to some job in his administration ... which I suppose is possible since he's insane ... it can't be him.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 09:44:46 Murder: Pretty much every US war starts with a decapitation strike. GW1, Iraq, Afghanistan. What Mattis could do (if Trump insists) is say "Sir, we can make limited strikes to degrade Syrian capability under US law. I can certainly develop options to target Assad specifically, but that would require formal authorisation from congress under US law. If you order me to do this without that authorisation I will be forced to resign."
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 09:45:13 "Assad wouldn't have been bombed" Assad would have been bombed by Mattis's replacement ... or his replacement ... or his replacement.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 09:47:58 "Pretty much every US war starts with a decapitation strike. GW1, Iraq, Afghanistan." And how many foreign leaders have actually been killed in those strikes?
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 09:56:40 murder, The official US position for the last six years is that Assad has lost legitimacy as the rule of Syria. And besides...ask the current leader of the Taliban about how much the US was concerned about setting a precedent when it came to his predecessors.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Sep 06 09:59:17 "The official US position.." lol
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 10:00:07 I'm not sure what's so lol about that, it is the position.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 10:06:51 "And besides...ask the current leader of the Taliban about how much the US was concerned about setting a precedent when it came to his predecessors." Mullah Mohammad Omar died of TB. We didn't kill him.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 10:08:16 And Akhtar Mansour (whose name I most assuredly didn't need to google)?
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 10:14:47 What state was he the leader of?
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 10:37:52 Don't be cute you cocksucker.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 11:05:02 That's kind of the relevant point. Assassinating a terrorist leader or the leader of some stateless group is not the same as knocking off a foreign leader. We didn't kill Saddam. We didn't kill Mullah Omar. We didn't kill Gaddafi. We didn't kill Noriega. We didn't kill Milosevic. We didn't kill Castro. We didn't kill Ortega. We didn't kill Chavez. We haven't killed Maduro. It's just not done. And if you're going to do it, you need to understand that others may decide to do it too ... and maybe do it to you.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 11:07:23 Oh yeah ... we didn't kill Khomeini, and we haven't killed Khamenei.
Rugian Member	Thu Sep 06 11:26:50 Let me see if I have this straight...its. not okay to assassinate a sovereign head of state. but it is okay to assassinate him after you order a general invasion of his country, deprive him of most of his territory and kill thousands of lives... ...yeah, more nonsense. And that's not even getting into the fact that the Taliban is not actually a terrorist organization as you inaccurately claim. As for the CIA never trying to assassinate Castro...actual WTF.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 12:21:53 Murder: Once the US declares war, it does often try to knock off the leader. The US did try to kill milosovec they bombed one of his residences. They tried to kill Saddam. Even if you discount unrecognised leaders like tailiban, or black ops against Castro.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 12:22:59 America has never pursued a major war with Iran, only very limited aims and punishments.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Sep 06 12:29:12 >>We didn't kill Saddam. We didn't kill Mullah Omar. We didn't kill Gaddafi. We didn't kill Noriega. We didn't kill Milosevic.<< The line from US intervention and these people ending up dead is <3 degrees of separation. Talk about splitting the cunt hairs.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 12:45:38 "Let me see if I have this straight...its. not okay to assassinate a sovereign head of state. but it is okay to assassinate him after you order a general invasion of his country, deprive him of most of his territory and kill thousands of lives..." Are you being dense on purpose? We didn't kill any of those people. The guy you pointed to was never the leader of any nation. EVER. "As for the CIA never trying to assassinate Castro...actual WTF." Had they wanted him dead, he would've been dead.
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 12:46:53 "Once the US declares war, it does often try to knock off the leader." Apparently you think we're just that incompetent.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 12:57:28 Murder: It's not easy to bomb a specific person with state backing and global allies. I'm fairly sure the Russians provided tip offs. I'm pretty sure you didn't decide to let Osama bin Laden and mullah Omar live s long as they did.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 13:55:43 http://www.../amp?__twitter_impression=true ... It is generally true of all presidents that, up close, things are far worse than they appear in accounts written after the fact. But that’s a disquieting thought in the context of the Trump administration. The implication is that things at the White House are even more awful and chaotic than Wolff and now Woodward have portrayed them. It’s literally hard to imagine. One reason for that failure of imagination is our deeply rooted human desire to make sense of even the most insane situation. In this way, we are all complicit in normalizing Trump. In both the real reporting and in my novel, everyone around Trump is focused on cleaning up after him. No one is able to look past Trump and take in the unfolding situation directly. The effort to minimize the fallout from Trump’s tweets—as dangerous as they are—is just part of a larger, more elaborate ritual of trying to fake normalcy. Those around Trump present this as heroism—good people, patriots even, doing their best in a bad situation. Woodward seems to praise Mattis for hanging up after hearing the president muse about murdering Assad, then telling his staff that they will do nothing of the kind. And Woodward seems to praise Gary Cohn for stealing a draft out of Trump’s desk—a letter pulling out of a trade agreement with South Korea—to keep him from signing it. But this misses the fact that each is involved with sustaining this presidency, which means the same problems recur over and over again. And what happens in a crisis? In my novel, everyone is so busy managing Trump, no one has the time or energy to manage the crisis that spins out of control and plunges us into a nuclear war. I don’t think Kelly, Mattis, or Cohn are heroes. I think they are enabling Trump. They aren’t helping Trump to make good decisions, they are cloaking his abuses and tirades in the guise of normalcy. They are lulling us with the comforting thought that we can just wait out the next two years, although they hope it is six. They are holding out the false promise that we will necessarily muddle through, somehow, and that it won’t lead to catastrophe. They are telling us that we are all overreacting. That, after all, it’s just a tweet.
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Sep 06 15:55:07 in that book lewis keeps trying to peddle to potential resistance readers.. which is a more indispensible ingedient for usa getting nuked 1 trump tweeting 2 usa having troops in s korea and doing military drills [both of which trump dislikes to horror of all the "sane" establishment]
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 16:18:10 Point gone over your head.
Seb Member	Thu Sep 06 16:27:36 Also: "Donald J. Trump Donald J. Trump @realDonaldTrump · Aug 29 ...of money on joint U.S.-South Korea war games. Besides, the President can instantly start the joint exercises again with South Korea, and Japan, if he so chooses. If he does, they will be far bigger than ever before. As for the U.S.–China trade disputes, and other..."
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Sep 06 16:29:30 hood - Rod, fun fact: I never voted for Obama. Perhaps you should stop trying to project your guilt onto others? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks"
murder Member	Thu Sep 06 16:46:01 "I'm pretty sure you didn't decide to let Osama bin Laden and mullah Omar live s long as they did." Osama? No. Omar? Yes. Like I said before. You don't target foreign leaders. Or should I say that responsible people don't.
Y2A Member	Thu Sep 06 20:47:47 Coats is leading the pack in the markets at 12 cents. There is no heavy favorite yet though. http://www...anonymous-op-ed-author-in-2018
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Sep 06 21:38:23 hood - Rod, fun fact: I never voted for Obama. Perhaps you should stop trying to project your guilt onto others? You kissed his ass and ate his shit, same difference.
hood Member	Thu Sep 06 22:38:20 Why aren't you dead yet? The world would be a mite brighter.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Sep 07 01:32:02 Maybe if you were nice to others, others would be nice to you.
Seb Member	Fri Sep 07 07:22:23 murder: If the goal is full on total surrender of the regime, it is exactly what the US doctrine appears to be. Decapitation was a specific aim in GW-II
hood Member	Fri Sep 07 07:30:19 If you are ever deserving of kindness, you shall receive it, rod. But that day is unlikely to come before your frail husk finally turns to ash. This is because you are reprehensible, dishonest, and abject scum.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Sep 07 08:27:44 Suicide is an option Hot Rod
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