Utopia Talk / Politics / enough Kav, back to criminal Trump

tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 14:27:15 President Trump participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents, an investigation by The New York Times has found. Mr. Trump won the presidency proclaiming himself a self-made billionaire, and he has long insisted that his father, the legendary New York City builder Fred C. Trump, provided almost no financial help. But The Times’s investigation, based on a vast trove of confidential tax returns and financial records, reveals that Mr. Trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father’s real estate empire, starting when he was a toddler and continuing to this day. Much of this money came to Mr. Trump because he helped his parents dodge taxes. He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents, records and interviews show. Records indicate that Mr. Trump helped his father take improper tax deductions worth millions more. He also helped formulate a strategy to undervalue his parents’ real estate holdings by hundreds of millions of dollars on tax returns, sharply reducing the tax bill when those properties were transferred to him and his siblings. These maneuvers met with little resistance from the Internal Revenue Service, The Times found. The president’s parents, Fred and Mary Trump, transferred well over $1 billion in wealth to their children, which could have produced a tax bill of at least $550 million under the 55 percent tax rate then imposed on gifts and inheritances. The Trumps paid a total of $52.2 million, or about 5 percent, tax records show. ... By age 3, Mr. Trump was earning $200,000 a year in today’s dollars from his father’s empire. He was a millionaire by age 8. By the time he was 17, his father had given him part ownership of a 52-unit apartment building. Soon after Mr. Trump graduated from college, he was receiving the equivalent of $1 million a year from his father. The money increased with the years, to more than $5 million annually in his 40s and 50s. Fred Trump was relentless and creative in finding ways to channel this wealth to his children. He made Donald not just his salaried employee but also his property manager, landlord, banker and consultant. He gave him loan after loan, many never repaid. He provided money for his car, money for his employees, money to buy stocks, money for his first Manhattan offices and money to renovate those offices. He gave him three trust funds. He gave him shares in multiple partnerships. He gave him $10,000 Christmas checks. He gave him laundry revenue from his buildings. Much of his giving was structured to sidestep gift and inheritance taxes using methods tax experts described to The Times as improper or possibly illegal. Although Fred Trump became wealthy with help from federal housing subsidies, he insisted that it was manifestly unfair for the government to tax his fortune as it passed to his children. When he was in his 80s and beginning to slide into dementia, evading gift and estate taxes became a family affair, with Donald Trump playing a crucial role, interviews and newly obtained documents show. <cont'd> [super long ass article] http://www...mp-tax-schemes-fred-trump.html i didn't read 90% of it, possibly better nuggets in there... recall Trump: "all i got was a 'small' $1 million loan"
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 14:34:26 actually this is a good nugget soon after the above... " The manipulation of values to evade taxes was central to one of the most important financial events in Donald Trump’s life. In an episode never before revealed, Mr. Trump and his siblings gained ownership of most of their father’s empire on Nov. 22, 1997, a year and a half before Fred Trump’s death. Critical to the complex transaction was the value put on the real estate. The lower its value, the lower the gift taxes. The Trumps dodged hundreds of millions in gift taxes by submitting tax returns that grossly undervalued the properties, claiming they were worth just $41.4 million. The same set of buildings would be sold off over the next decade for more than 16 times that amount. The most overt fraud was All County Building Supply & Maintenance, a company formed by the Trump family in 1992. All County’s ostensible purpose was to be the purchasing agent for Fred Trump’s buildings, buying everything from boilers to cleaning supplies. It did no such thing, records and interviews show. Instead All County siphoned millions of dollars from Fred Trump’s empire by simply marking up purchases already made by his employees. Those millions, effectively untaxed gifts, then flowed to All County’s owners — Donald Trump, his siblings and a cousin. Fred Trump then used the padded All County receipts to justify bigger rent increases for thousands of tenants. All told, The Times documented 295 streams of revenue that Fred Trump created over five decades to enrich his son. In most cases his four other children benefited equally. But over time, as Donald Trump careened from one financial disaster to the next, his father found ways to give him substantially more money, records show. Even so, in 1990, according to previously secret depositions, Mr. Trump tried to have his father’s will rewritten in a way that Fred Trump, alarmed and angered, feared could result in his empire’s being used to bail out his son’s failing businesses. " lock him up! lock him up!
Pillz Member	Tue Oct 02 15:06:04 If he's such an idiot how'd he play a crucial role in such a massive fraud scheme?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 02 15:49:31 The fraud is being created by the ny times. They spent the last two years forging those documents.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 16:21:45 when i say he's an idiot, i mean he has no knowledge on any topic he ever talks about (prove that wrong... without a teleprompter reading) that doesn't mean he couldn't learn how to commit tax fraud (but perhaps more likely just sought out criminal tax accountants & lawyers, as we know he loves criminal lawyers) we know he fiddles with the value of his properties even now... they are worthless when paying property taxes, but worth billions when estimating his wealth... and then the other shit he pulls like the goats on his golf course to get farmland tax breaks
Cold Rod Member	Tue Oct 02 17:07:05 Hot rod is dumb, so so dumb. Explains why he never wanted to release his taxes.
Average Ameriacn Member	Tue Oct 02 17:40:06 Being envy on successful people is unamerican.
kargen Member	Tue Oct 02 17:50:41 A lot of this sounds like they set up trust funds to help transfer assets so that estate taxes would not apply. You will find most multi millionaires set these types of trusts up all the time. Part of their having all that money is the ability to know how to keep it.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 17:54:18 how about just accepting he's a fraud who commits fraud how would that be shocking to anyone
patom Member	Tue Oct 02 18:10:33 It is and has been common practice to set up trust funds by the wealthy to keep their money in the family. A book called 'Dark Money' explains pretty well how that is done.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 18:11:53 let's not take kargen's description as fact read "The most overt fraud" paragraph above... this isn't about trusts
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 18:12:39 also i want to re-iterate i didn't read most of the article... there's probably tons more damning stuff :p it's the longest news article i've ever encountered
Dukhat Member	Tue Oct 02 18:19:04 Dems will be able to get his taxes when they retake the house. And all of Trump's many crimes will be revealed.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 18:22:25 plus it's not just about his fraud... also that he was a total liar about his fortune (granted, most people probably realized he was a total liar, just like he is in all things) but HR... his target voter... bought, and likely still buys, the 'small' $1 million loan story, where he built his fortune off only his amazing brilliance
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 02 18:45:23 Is this where they stumbled across a hundred thousand pages of his family history? or was that a different story? Aren't you guys even the least bit suspicious that all of this crap is miraculously showing up at the last minute where it absolutely the last possible chance of stopping Trump? If Trump people win their elections the Democrats will be royally screwed very likely for decades. They may even totally disappear like the Whigs. It is fine to call Trump names if you like, but you should try to use a little common sense. This stuff that is coming out at the last minute may very well be faked someway or another.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 18:53:30 how is it last minute? and the investigation was over a year long... the article is hyuge, packed w/ information that goes on and on... just deciding it's fake based on nothing, as you do with every negative Trump story, is nuts
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 02 18:55:48 I'm just saying it is possible. Time will tell.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 02 19:32:13 tw, and you believe every single thing that is anti-Trump. No matter how sensational.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 20:31:28 what has been false? his whole life is one long con job lie... he is completely amoral, has no connection to truth, is a complete child, and has only ever cared about accumulating money, being praised, and grabbing pussy
Forwyn Member	Tue Oct 02 20:31:36 "Dems will be able to get his taxes when they retake the house. And all of Trump's many crimes will be revealed." rofl. Cuckhat still thinks there will be a Blue Wave.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 02 21:07:51 Who told you that?
Pillz Member	Tue Oct 02 21:32:36 "rofl. Cuckhat still thinks there will be a Blue Wave." Came to post this.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Oct 02 23:55:22 i see so far 1 tweet by Fox News of the President being a life-long criminal & fraud with dozens of pro-Kavanaugh tweets & other random news
Dukhat Member	Wed Oct 03 00:02:17 That's right. #redwave, #walkaway guys. No need to vote. Repubs will maintain control.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 00:30:11 another of the many scams in the report is Donald owing $11 million in loans to his father... if the loans were simply forgiven there'd be tax on that value as a gift i guess, so Fred took shares in Donald's property as payment, then later sold the $15 million in shares back to Donald for $10,000... w/ no gift tax paid Fred Trump should be posthumously convicted & have his corpse dug up & put in prison
kargen Member	Wed Oct 03 00:32:15 I have no doubt he has done everything he can to pay as little taxes as possible. I'm thinking if he did something illegal though the IRS would have nailed his ass by now.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 01:01:43 i have no confidence in that whatsoever note how Manafort skated for a decade or more w/ tax crimes that would've continued w/o the spotlight of Mueller same for Cohen
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 01:10:12 this seems like simple factual information: " The Trumps dodged hundreds of millions in gift taxes by submitting tax returns that grossly undervalued the properties, claiming they were worth just $41.4 million. The same set of buildings would be sold off over the next decade for more than 16 times that amount. "
Y2A Member	Wed Oct 03 01:10:22 I have no doubt that he is some rich kids son, used to getting a pass on everything who is now in over his head.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 03 05:24:11 tw - i see so far 1 tweet by Fox News of the President being a life-long criminal & fraud That's probably because they think it is nonsense.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 11:00:48 "The findings are based on interviews with Fred Trump’s former employees and advisers and more than 100,000 pages of documents describing the inner workings and immense profitability of his empire. They include documents culled from public sources — mortgages and deeds, probate records, financial disclosure reports, regulatory records and civil court files. The investigation also draws on tens of thousands of pages of confidential records — bank statements, financial audits, accounting ledgers, cash disbursement reports, invoices and canceled checks. Most notably, the documents include more than 200 tax returns from Fred Trump, his companies and various Trump partnerships and trusts. While the records do not include the president’s personal tax returns and reveal little about his recent business dealings at home and abroad, dozens of corporate, partnership and trust tax returns offer the first public accounting of the income he received for decades from various family enterprises."
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 11:15:12 "The Failing New York Times did something I have never seen done before. They used the concept of “time value of money” in doing a very old, boring and often told hit piece on me. Added up, this means that 97% of their stories on me are bad. Never recovered from bad election call!" ~criminal idiot he's never heard of adjusting dollar figures to today's value... for the record $1 mil in 1980 is about $3 mil today... not $400 million
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 03 13:28:06 I heard this morning that the IRS signed off on all of that.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 03 13:29:47 from Fox & Friends? shirtless guy shouting in the street? (would be same credibility)
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 03 13:32:58 If that were true I would hate to see those that are feeding you the crap you call news.
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 04 00:17:56 trump critics kept saying there was need to look into trump financials to see all the hidden money the russians gave him.. nyt looks through all these documents and all they can find to accuse is that president got money from his dad.. so trump looks absolved.. and his critics discredited..
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 04 00:29:13 "Mr. Trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father’s real estate empire.. He and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts..Fred and Mary Trump, transferred well over $1 billion in wealth to their children" well over a billion dollars to all siblings [possibly in past prices].. reasonable to interpret that as $1.3 billion plus.. subtract $413 billion for donald in current prices.. then other three siblings would get nearly as much each [at minimum] so why don't other three siblings combined seem to have small fraction of donald's net worth
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 04 00:33:34 "These maneuvers met with little resistance from the Internal Revenue Service" if army of expert scientists say earth is billions of years old.. and three baptist ministers say they are dummies and earth was created under 10 thousand years ago.. i'm going to tend to believe expert scientists similarly.. if army of income tax experts at irs say trump family taxes are fine.. and then three journalists say experts are dummies and trump is crook.. then i'm going to tend to take side of income tax experts at irs
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 04 00:37:11 "subtract $413 billion for donald in current prices" obviously meant $413 million
werewolf dictator Member	Thu Oct 04 01:35:46 also.. i should have said something like at "real 2018 dollars" [or not so].. rather than "past/current prices"
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Oct 04 04:39:58 So why don't you get pissed at everyone in The Congress? They all go in as poor as a church mouse and come out multi-millionaires. "In 2014, CRP reported Pelosi's average net worth in 2014 was $101,273,023 having ranked 8th out of 25 wealthiest members of Congress." WIKI And she has a "WALL."
American Democrat Member	Thu Oct 04 06:43:34 "trump critics kept saying there was need to look into trump financials to see all the hidden money the russians gave him.. nyt looks through all these documents and all they can find to accuse is that president got money from his dad.. so trump looks absolved.. and his critics discredited.. " This is untrue as the scope of their investigative reporting covered between the 1950s up to 2000. It would be recent tax returns that would be highlighted that may depict his interactions with various other parties that may also include the Russians. You're providing an unrelated and false conclusion. And in no way shows that they were discredited. "I'm thinking if he did something illegal though the IRS would have nailed his ass by now" He has been caught and had to pay penalties. But the circumvention that some go through to defraud the government can go unlooked or never revealed. So to settle that if this was so bad he would have been caught by now is a logical fallacy and used to being dismissive of how serious this actually is in regards to his 'brand' of sorts. This isn't a huge surprise in regards to that because it was always highly suspect. Especially in regards to him not ever wanting to release his tax returns as it would hurt his image and reveal how dis-ingenuine he is.
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