Utopia Talk / Politics / Depressing

Seb Member	Sat Oct 13 10:53:09 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797615612727 Large Cross-National Differences in Gene × Socioeconomic Status Interaction on Intelligence Elliot M. Tucker-Drob, Timothy C. Bates, First Published December 15, 2015 Research Article https://doi.org/10.1177/0956797615612727 Abstract A core hypothesis in developmental theory predicts that genetic influences on intelligence and academic achievement are suppressed under conditions of socioeconomic privation and more fully realized under conditions of socioeconomic advantage: a Gene × Childhood Socioeconomic Status (SES) interaction. Tests of this hypothesis have produced apparently inconsistent results. We performed a meta-analysis of tests of Gene × SES interaction on intelligence and academic-achievement test scores, allowing for stratification by nation (United States vs. non–United States), and we conducted rigorous tests for publication bias and between-studies heterogeneity. In U.S. studies, we found clear support for moderately sized Gene × SES effects. In studies from Western Europe and Australia, where social policies ensure more uniform access to high-quality education and health care, Gene × SES effects were zero or reversed.
Seb Member	Sat Oct 13 10:54:13 You're poor because you're stupid, because you're poor. Meritocracy!
Interesting Facts Member	Sat Oct 13 11:07:28 http://www...hood-of-violence-in-later-life Parents' social mobility cuts likelihood of children turning to violent crime
Paramount Member	Sat Oct 13 11:35:11 Maybe I'm poor because I'm lazy, or because I was not lucky enough to be born into a wealthy family. Most of us are rich though, if we compare our lives with the lives in a third world country. So, wealth is relative.
patom Member	Sat Oct 13 11:51:35 IMO, the parents are the key. What they demand of their children and how much they can influence them in their learning process.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Oct 13 11:51:52 This is in line with what we understand about heritability. "On the other hand, heritability might also increase if the environmental variation decreases, causing individuals to show less phenotypic variation, like showing more similar levels of intelligence. Heritability increases when genetics are contributing more variation or because non-genetic factors are contributing less variation; what matters is the relative contribution. Heritability is specific to a particular population in a particular environment." wiki In other words if you reduce SES variation (environment) the genes will become more "important". However Sweden still has poor and stupid people, because they are >>genetically stupid<<. Basically, what the Social Justice cause of equality will do, is stratify people not according to socio economic status, but genotypic status :) Intended?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Oct 13 11:55:57 To sum the significance of the study. Genes are equally important for success in the USA and in Sweden, but socio economic status is less important in Sweden, small effect size.
Seb Member	Sat Oct 13 12:04:42 Nim: Sweden's ability to correct for SES is only relatively better than the US, not absolute. The degree to which SES matters in Sweden isn't known. The key here is that Sam's arguments are largely bogus: socio economic effects suppress genetic factors, whereas he frequently argues that socio-economic effects are a consequence of genes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Oct 13 12:46:50 They are a consequence of genes and the environment. You can give everyone the same deck and high IQ people will still come out on top. By providing certain basic necessities lets say, you can reduce the amount of people who would have failed due to environmental factors. The central point is valid, we should aim to reduce those factors, at the end of the day, there is people are born to fail in the environment we constructed and they will not be helped by socioeconomy, they have to be helped by other yet to be invented means. I hear you about Sweden in the study, though I feel safe going out on a limb on this, SES matters less for educational attainment in Sweden than in the USA. In principle we are saying if you have the ability, lacking the means shouldn’t be the reason you fail. Who thinks this is bad?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Oct 13 13:46:21 A boy needs a strong father figure. My dad died when I was about four.
smart dude Member	Sat Oct 13 13:49:11 which explains why you grew up to be a moron
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Oct 13 14:32:06 LOL Fido, you are so predictable. I was thinking of you when I made that post. I just knew you would come along and stick your nose up my ass. Your favorite pastime.
Cold Rod Member	Sat Oct 13 14:57:42 Lil Davey had Hot Rod as his father figure, we know how that turned out.
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Oct 13 20:19:20 Socioeconomic status and genetic influences on cognitive development David N. Figlio, Jeremy Freese, Krzysztof Karbownik, and Jeffrey Roth PNAS December 19, 2017 114 (51) 13441-13446; published ahead of print November 13, 2017 https://doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1708491114 Edited by James J. Heckman, The University of Chicago, Chicago, IL, and approved October 18, 2017 (received for review May 26, 2017) http://www.pnas.org/content/114/51/13441 Significance A prominent hypothesis in the study of intelligence is that genetic influences on cognitive abilities are larger for children raised in more advantaged environments. Evidence to date has been mixed, with some indication that the hypothesized pattern may hold in the United States but not elsewhere. We conducted the largest study to date using matched birth and school administrative records from the socioeconomically diverse state of Florida, and we did not find evidence for the hypothesis. Abstract Accurate understanding of environmental moderation of genetic influences is vital to advancing the science of cognitive development as well as for designing interventions. One widely reported idea is increasing genetic influence on cognition for children raised in higher socioeconomic status (SES) families, including recent proposals that the pattern is a particularly US phenomenon. We used matched birth and school records from Florida siblings and twins born in 1994–2002 to provide the largest, most population-diverse consideration of this hypothesis to date. We found no evidence of SES moderation of genetic influence on test scores, suggesting that articulating gene-environment interactions for cognition is more complex and elusive than previously supposed.
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Oct 13 20:22:32 this should be full paper seb linked but without paywall http://www...us_Interaction_on_Intelligence
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Oct 13 20:52:23 don't really believe usa has terrible education.. if usa was just whites and/or asians.. it would have elite pisa test results at age 15 in reading and science.. math would be more mediocre but still above sweden and uk http://nce...2015/pisa2015highlights_3f.asp [use left sidebar and hit average scores for all countries]
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Oct 13 20:55:27 if people aren't reaching their genetic potential relative to other advanced nations.. it's among blacks and hispanics.. but public schools are spending most on blacks.. and asians a little less than whites and near hispanics.. http://www...es-public-school-funding#_ftn3 and don't see why greater healthcare would be increasing test scores
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Oct 13 21:06:32 "african americans" especially with the poor academic achievement.. at least in grades etc caribbean blacks supposedly do better.. and recent immigrants from africa much better
Pillz Member	Sat Oct 13 22:45:02 Autism folks Maybe the result of a Russian experiment? Who knows
Seb Member	Sun Oct 14 09:52:12 If the UK and Sweden could similarly remove their low socio economic status children, what would that do to their statistics? Werewolf once again demonstraits why he's not really worth talking to having failed to understand the thread at all.
Seb Member	Sun Oct 14 09:55:13 "this Heritage Foundation paper" Right, so a paper by a rightwing think tank that campaigns amongst other things, for creationism to be taught in science class, and that climate change is a hoax. Hmm, I hate to pkay the ad homme but I'm really not going to waste my time on anything from that particular outfit.
hood Member	Sun Oct 14 10:29:34 Not wasting time with putin's fluffer is the appropriate call.
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Oct 14 17:14:14 if britain didn't count academically unmotivated travellers and gypsies subcultures it wouldn't be that many people.. and so little effect on statistics.. ..... is brookings unacceptable too.. because their findings don't seem much different http://www...on-poor-and-minority-students/ "We find that, on average, poor and minority students receive between 1-2 percent more resources than non-poor or white students in their districts, equivalent to about $65 per pupil.. Yet, we were surprised to see that average levels and variation in spending inequality between districts is nearly identical to the within-district inequalities. Thus, within-district distributions appear to be far more important than previously thought. we hypothesized that wealthier districts would under-allocate resources to poor and minority students. We reasoned that parents with greater resources could more effectively navigate the local political system.. In many cases, however, we find just the opposite: *In richer districts, poor and Hispanic students receive more school resources, relative to their non-poor and white peers in the same districts. *Districts with more school segregation—whether socioeconomic or racial—tend to spend more on poor and minority students relative to non-poor and white students. *Black and Hispanic students receive relatively fewer resources in districts where black or Hispanic family income is more equal to (or even higher than) white family income."
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Oct 14 18:07:07 seb totally ignores recent study of florida in direct conflict with idea there is difference between europe/australia and usa.. with "an order of magnitude larger than prior studies (24,640 twins with matched birth-school records and test score information)"
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Oct 14 18:20:12 as well as being unusual in being a random sample without disproportionately few low ses participants
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Oct 14 19:12:43 "campaigns amongst other things, for creationism to be taught in science class, and that climate change is a hoax" i see an article from 1996 voicing approval that donated creationist books were put in a school library [saying nothing about them being taught].. googling doesn't show anything obvious about them talking about creationism or intelligent design beyond this.. not much of a "campaign" that i see on climate change [which they at least do actually talk about at least].. the first article i see is interview doubting it is causing hurricanes as media argues.. and claiming 1.5 to 4.5 degree celcius increase when doubling co2 is within range of non-fringe scientists.. is this supposed to be atypical.. or what you mean when saying they campaign that climate change is a hoax
werewolf dictator Member	Sun Oct 14 19:17:36 and by voicing approval in article about donated creationist books put in school library.. it was a couple lines in larger broader article
Sam Adams Member	Sun Oct 14 22:24:14 "socio economic effects suppress genetic factors, whereas he frequently argues that socio-economic effects are a consequence of genes." Both are true. Can you comprehend that 2 traits feed back on eachother seb?
Seb Member	Mon Oct 15 01:08:17 Sam: Yes. But you are the one that has consistently argued against that.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Oct 15 10:33:44 No dumbseb. I have never said that economics has no effect on intelligence. You on the other hand desperately cry that genes have no such effect. Clearly your genes are at fault for your lack of sense, since your economics are not.
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