Utopia Talk / Politics / Genes cannot be traced to groups - seb

Sam Adams Member	Mon Oct 15 10:38:43 http://www...e-firing-back-at-trump-attacks The results, as shared with The Boston Globe, reportedly reveal “strong evidence” the Massachusetts senator had a Native American ancestor dating back six to 10 generations. At the same time, the report could embolden critics by showing only trace amounts of that heritage -- which Republicans have charged she used to advance her career at Harvard. Explain these results please.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Oct 15 10:39:47 How did they possibly identify a group based on genes seb? I thought group genes were fake? Uh oh.
Cherub Cow Member	Tue Oct 16 01:16:25 "Elizabeth Warren Disappointed After DNA Test Shows Zero Trace Of Presidential Material" [Onion: News in Photos] http://pol...dna-test-shows-zero-1829766407
Seb Member	Tue Oct 16 01:22:22 Sam has never heard of mitochondrial DNA.
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 16 01:45:16 http://mk0...GP6oKnCo_-cbQqPql9PupQwPs2IwNg "(2) The largest segment identified as having Native American ancestry is on chromosome 10. This segment is 13.4 centiMorgans in genetic length, and spans approximately 4,700,000 DNA bases. Based on a principal components analysis (Novembre et al., 2008), this segment is clearly distinct from segments of European ancestry (nominal p-value 7.4 x 10-7, corrected p-value of 2.6 x 10-4) and is strongly associated with Native American ancestry."
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 16 04:39:49 warren and every leftist in america is citing trump saying this is proof trump owes $1 million donation "But let's say I'm debating Pocahontas.. And we will very gently take that kit, and slowly toss it, hoping it doesn't injure her arm, and we will say: ‘I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian.’" when did left go from "race does not exist" to adopting "one drop role" why are cisgender women bigots when they reject idea transgender women are real women.. but ostracize rachel dolezal for not being real black person it's so confusing
werewolf dictator Member	Tue Oct 16 07:51:33 *"one drop rule"
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 10:20:38 "Sam has never heard of mitochondrial DNA." What the fuck are you trying to say with this babbling and incorrect statement? That some parts of human dna(the politically correct parts im sure) can actually be applied to groups. Its hilarious that in the modern world sjws are so fucking blinded by there own ethos that you have seb seriously trying to argue that dna doesnt work.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 10:20:38 "Sam has never heard of mitochondrial DNA." What the fuck are you trying to say with this babbling and incorrect statement? That some parts of human dna(the politically correct parts im sure) can actually be applied to groups. Its hilarious that in the modern world sjws are so fucking blinded by there own ethos that you have seb seriously trying to argue that dna doesnt work.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 10:30:44 All modern science shall be thrown out if it is politically incorrect.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 10:34:37 "warren and every leftist in america is citing trump saying this is proof trump owes $1 million donation " Trump should give her between 1/64th and 1/1024 of the sum. Lulz
Seb Member	Tue Oct 16 12:34:24 Sam: Then it's almost certainly bullshit. However, it's worth noting that being able to say "x Sequence is associated with a particular group" is not the same as saying you can identify groups of individuals from analysis of their genes in a way that corresponds to races. For example, how many native Americans have said sequence, even if we accept at face value the idea the sequence is unique to native Americans? That would mean someone with the sequence was likely of native American descent, but does not define being native American. I think there are in fact a few groupings of "shared genetic heritage" that correspond to racial groupings, but mostly we are talking about different things. Good summary here. https://twitter.com/ewanbirney/status/1050055807499476992?s=19
Seb Member	Tue Oct 16 13:37:06 A more accurate thread title would be "Groupings correspinding to races can't be identified by genetic analysis".
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 14:17:44 Yes seb, not all genes are correlated with races. But some are. This is basic. Glad you are starting to get it though.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 14:21:13 "Groupings correspinding to races can't be identified by genetic analysis" Yet some can. Hence the entire point of heritage based dna tests, which are now widespread and scientifically valid. This is common knowledge and not distiputed by anyone except religious whackos and sjws.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 16 16:13:24 Sam: It's amazing that you parrot back things I've said as though they are at odds with other things I've said when they aren't. It shows just how little you understand. "Yet some can." No. That's different. As I just pointed out. If a given sequence is only present in one racial group, that's might allow you to say with a high degree of accuracy that anyone possessing that sequence comes from that racial group. However. If that sequence is not posessed by most people in that group, then clearly that must mean there are people of that racial group who do not have that sequence. Essentially there are almost no overall clusters where a set of genetic features together specify a group which would correspond to a conventionally defined racial group. This really isn't a hard concept to understand and the fact you still don't get it and intuitively assume (incorrectly) that the ability to attribute race based on posession of a sequence naturally means you can create a complete genetic specification for racial groups is quite troubling. Heritage testing like 23andme has very shaky underpinnings in science, it is in fact widely disputed (see link above for an explanation by the senior scientist and director of a research group in statistical analysis of genomes). https://www.ebi.ac.uk/about/people/ewan-birney What's more, 23andme and others have little regulation. They can essentially say what they like and there is no calibration of transparency on how they established baselines. The essential model for such outfits is simply to *gather* a large baseline of genetic data they can match to other data sets (akin to social media companies). But that immediately casts doubt on the accuracy of their racial profiling (if they had the broad baseline data they'd not need to be collecting data at a loss under the flag of "tell you your genetic heritage"). Essentially, it's a genetic version of those apps that purport to tell you your personality type indicator if you enter a bunch of personal info. You shouldn't put a huge amount of confidence in the answer: the point was just to gather your info for other purposes, and there's no law, regulator of other mechanism to hold the tester accountable for the accuracy or lack of it (sucker). But sure, let's call it "scientific". https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-the-reasons-the-fda-thinks/
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 17:08:57 You literally said no gene could ever be associated with a group, and now you briefly admitted some could, before changing your mind again. You are quite confused, but then again, i wouldnt expect clear thought from the genetic equivalent of an antivaxxer.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Oct 16 17:22:17 You seem to think there is a magical sjw filter that prevents science from doing things you dont like. Basic Fact: populations separated by enough time and or space are genetically distinguished. Deal with it.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 16 23:40:08 Jesus christ... regardless of the quality of current methods to acertain heritage. WE KNOW that human populations have, apart from some well known migration episodes, lived in different geographic locations, with fairly limited cross breeding. Yes there is a genetic basis for ethnicity. We can’t say everything about every little ethnolinguistic group, yes some groups are indistinguishable from their neighbors despite different cultures/narrative and language. You see the gene pool holds enough surprises to disappoint everyone!
Seb Member	Wed Oct 17 01:20:47 Sam: No, I literally didn't, and I can't be responsible for your shitty comprehension skills.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 17 02:56:11 Sammy The problem with time/space is that it it measured in 10s of thousands generations. Or back to the origns of our species. So yah, populations can be distinguished. Neanderthal from human for example.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 17 03:35:18 Nim: You can literally find a director of a research group that focuses on statistical analysis explaining that the assumptions you are making here are wrong at the link above. https://twitter.com/ewanbirney/status/1050055807499476992?s=19 Your state of nature myth is just that: human populations have moved and mixed continuously. The phenotypical features of race are controlled by a relatively small segment of the genome so you can easily have genetic transfer between races while the "mixed race" offspring are confidently assigned to one of the races of one of the parents, while containing 50% of the genetic material of the other parent, which of course they will propagate to their children who would not necessarily be identified as mixed race. Because the phenotypical aspects of race are controlled by a few genes (many with dominance and recessive features) and also by cultural and social aspects, they will be quite stable even when there is significant mixing across racial lines. Archeologically, we are discovering ever more evidence of quite long distance migration in antiquity. So the assumption that most of the world's population comes from isolated but internally well mixed populations isn't really true. We are a migratory species and have been since we left Africa, using our adaptations for long distance movement to do exactly that. Further, when geneticists talk about genetic heritage they mean a group that is itself well mixed (which until very very recently, white Europeans, confidently identified as a race by American white supremacists such as Sam, were not). Your top down hand waiving assertions don't stand up to scientific scrutiny: they are naive and based on false assumptions. Indeed much of the criticism of Warren is that merely having a snippet of native American DNA doesn't give her a shared cultural heritage or experience. Few would recognise her as being native American (including native Americans) precisely because of that. Races are social constructs not reducible to simple genetics.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 17 09:44:10 "Races are social constructs not reducible to simple genetics. " Ahh yes, seb blatantly stating that genes dont matter. The state of the modern left: "science shall be ignored when politically convenient" Jergul, the neanderthal intelligence theory does seem to hold water. Neanderthals had larger brain capacity, and those races with some neanderthal genes(whites and even more in asians) also have more intelligence than races without neanderthal genes(africans). Coincidence? Probably not.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 17 10:09:45 Also human dna responds to natural selection in as little as about 15,000 years... something like 800 generations. Sherpas, who have been relatively isolated in the himalaya for about that long, have developed a superior cardiovascular system on a genetic level verse normal humans.
Seb Member	Wed Oct 17 17:44:10 Sam: Science tells us that races and genetic heritage are not the same thing. That doesn't mean they don't matter. It means they aren't the same thing. Why do you reject science for magical thinking?
Seb Member	Wed Oct 17 17:45:20 Have Europeans lived as a single will mixed group for 15,000 years?
Nekran Member	Wed Oct 17 17:57:05 "The state of the modern left: "science shall be ignored when politically convenient"" It really makes me laugh that you always make this claim, while it is you who keeps on wishing science to be racist with all his heart. I almost feel for you that it so annoyingly keeps on being not racist at all.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 17 18:11:47 Sammy The gene variation exists in the general population and likely predates the exodus from Africa. It is dominant in high altitude cultures in Ethiopia and the Himalayas to name two we know of. Strike 1.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Fri Oct 19 11:09:19 'warren and every leftist in america is citing trump saying this is proof trump owes $1 million donation "But let's say I'm debating Pocahontas.. And we will very gently take that kit, and slowly toss it, hoping it doesn't injure her arm, and we will say: ‘I will give you a million dollars to your favorite charity, paid for by Trump, if you take the test and it shows you're an Indian.’" ' How is proving that someone is of Native American descent the same as saying they are from India? Trump worded it just right that he owes nothing!
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Oct 19 18:11:04 vote for the real indian http://twitter.com/va_shiva/status/933567869933285376
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