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Utopia Talk / Politics / Jergul: apology accepted
Daemon
Member
Thu Oct 18 06:02:48
http://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=658368278

Norway Apologizes To Women Who Faced Reprisals For Wartime Relations With Nazis

By Emily Sullivan

NPR.org, October 18, 2018 · Norway issued an apology on Wednesday to women who faced retaliation and public disgrace for having relationships with occupying German forces during World War II.

Up to 50,000 Norwegian women are thought to have had intimate relationships with German soldiers, the BBC reports. Many of them faced government retaliation after the war's end, including illegal arrests, job firings and being stripped of their nationality.

Norway's Prime Minister Erna Solberg issued a formal apology to these "German girls" at an event to mark the 70th anniversary of the United Nation's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

"For many, this was just a teenage love, for some, the love of their lives with an enemy soldier or an innocent flirt that left its mark for the rest of their lives," Solberg said. "Today, in the name of the government, I want to offer my apologies."

Many German men occupying Nordic countries were encouraged by their leaders to have children with local women. Lebensborn — which translates to "spring of life" — was the infamous Nazi leader Heinrich Himmler's effort to engineer an Aryan super-race by commandeering the offspring of blond, blue-eyed Germans and similar counterparts in Nazi-occupied countries.

Norway's Scandinavian gene pool made it a special target of this racist effort. The country was invaded by Nazi forces in 1940.

The New York Times reports the German SS set up clinics throughout occupied territories to ensure healthy births of children born to SS soldiers.

"We cannot say women who had personal relations with German soldiers were helping the German war effort," Guri Hjeltnes, historian and director of the Center for Holocaust and Minorities Studies, told The Guardian. "Their crime was breaking unwritten rules and moral standards. They were punished even more harshly than the war profiteers."

Women In The World reports the nearly 30 Norwegian men who married German women during occupation did not face government reprisals.

The children of these unions were subject to alienation and identity confusion after the war. ABBA singer Anni-Frid Lyngstad, born to a Norwegian mother and German sergeant father, is one of them, The Guardian reports.

Lyngstad's mother and grandmother were ostracized after she was born, and immigrated to Sweden soon after. Those who stayed in Norway were subject to social discrimination, had difficulty finding work and reportedly were classified as 'rats' by government officials.

These "children of shame" received an apology from the government in 2000.
Paramount
Member
Thu Oct 18 06:25:52
"Up to 50,000 Norwegian women are thought to have had intimate relationships with German soldiers,"



Wow, that many? In 1940 Norway had about 2.9 million people. Say half of them was women. That is 1.45 million women. Say 1 million of them women were 18 years or older.

That means every 20th norweigan girl had an intimate relationship with a German soldier?
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 07:30:46
Long overdue. That stuff was taking "vindictive shrews" to an entirely new level.

Para
500k Germans/Austrians at the most in Norway. Many billeted in regular households.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 07:33:23
I rented a room from one of the children in the 1980s. She used her father's surname and was quite upfront about her mother's past (her mother was in turn very open about it. A early variant of saying fu to the slutshamers).
Pillz
Member
Thu Oct 18 09:32:36
Traitors and whore.

Like jergul's mother, no doubt
Pillzlovesthecock
Member
Thu Oct 18 09:39:26
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 18 09:54:44
"Long overdue."

rofl, cuck

Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is okay as long as you have a vagina
Rugian
Member
Thu Oct 18 10:09:59
Meanwhile, millions of men were facing the choice of marching directly into machine gun fire or being executed for desertion.

But sure, the real crime of WWII was that Norwegian women who opened their legs for the invader weren't treated nice.
Rugian
Member
Thu Oct 18 10:13:04
Maybe the US can follow up by apologizing to every woman who was looked down upon for writing a Dear John letter and banging the mailman while her boyfriend was freezing in the Belgian winter.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 10:26:33
You fellows really need to learn that civic society is supposed to function in times of war. People interact. They also interact with occupiers.

That total war BS is just the kind of approach that will give us world war III.

Your type of vindictive shrews are what will bring it down.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 18 10:35:25
"civic society is supposed to function in times of war."

A functioning society does not necessitate welfare homes for Norwegian broodmothers to churn out children to be shipped to the Nazi state for rearing, and enablers do not need to be apologized to along gender lines.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 18 10:37:24
You also seem to be ignorant of genetic displacement as a tool of war. Society should be vigilant against it.

But then, you welcome invaders who openly state that their birthrate is an effective weapon, so it should come as no surprise that you're an apologist.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 12:14:07
Forwyn
Those kind of projects are of course frowned on.

However, we are speaking here of relationships established though personal proximity.

If you wish to condemn Germans (in many cases Austrians technically) for some kind of genetic masterplan, then fair enough. But that would simply redefine the women as victims of evildoing instead of young people doing what young people do.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 12:15:42
Funny you should mention islamists. They also enjoy stoning people for having the wrong partners.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 18 13:01:11
Funny you should compare stoning to social ostracism and head shaving. Also funny you should compare skydaddy cult beliefs to armed invasions in which everyone but Quislings and broodmothers are killed by the trainload.

Give it a couple generations, those rules will be hitting Norwegian streets.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 13:23:20
Here are the Norwegians that died during wwii. There is a picture of pretty much everyone.

http://www.vg.no/spesial/2015/vaare_falne/

Mortality dropped as deaths to war were more than balanced by decreases cardio-vascular diseases due to improvements in diet from rationing.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Oct 18 13:41:21
That leaves a whole lot of Quislings, then.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 15:21:14
It leaves a whole lot of people getting on with their lives. You should know, its not as if your country is unfamiliar with invading and occupying places.
Rugian
Member
Thu Oct 18 15:41:47
Getting on with their lives...by sleeping with invading Nazis?


I realize that the uniforms were handsome and all, but come on.
jergul
large member
Thu Oct 18 17:56:34
Ruggy
Relationships. In 1945 every 7th marriage in Norway was to a German or Austrian national.

The reason for the reaction was only partially nationalism anyway. Fraternizing with allied troops would also give internment (legally in all cases based on disease control).

The most famous example is Coco Chanel incidentally.

Jealously + moralism in the cloakings of patriotism is a dangerous mix.

The whole affair is stunningly Statist with ample use of retroactive legislation.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Oct 20 15:25:28
>>But that would simply redefine the women as victims of evildoing instead of young people doing what young people do.<<

Young people do stupid things that get themselves and others in trouble. We have punishments as deterrence and to reduce recidivism. We should issue apologies to all the males in jails for rape, boys will be boys *shrugs* :) It's what they do, it's in their nature!
jergul
large member
Sat Oct 20 16:58:27
Nimi
You may have a point, its hard to tell. But it reads like you equate the women to convicted rapists.

The appologies were for State and vigilante overreach. Very appropriate and very overdue.

Nationalism truly is the last refuge of scoundrels.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Oct 20 17:20:00
No actually I think treason is much worse than rape. Regardless of the gender or age of the traitor.

Why would you apologize for what vigilantes do? They are vigilantes, it's what they do *shrug* :)
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 04:16:47
Nimi
yah, total war fanatics defining the oddest things as treason to justify anything they like. Its the mentality that will end humanity.

You would be much nearer the mark if you had aimed it at war profiteers (which was incidentally pretty much everyone. Wartime inflation eliminated private debt).

Norway surrendered and civic society continued.
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 04:17:46
You do get that you are comparing relationships with heinous crimes, right?

Things going ok in the Nimi household? I feel I have to ask.
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 04:20:39
Did you not marry a Kurd? Would not some view that as treason?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Oct 21 05:01:23
Yes yes Jergul, you can afford to be all woke in 2018 above the arctic circle. This isn't 1940. Until nationalism and all these boogie man isms all disappear, it would be like giving up all your guns when everyone else is packing.

>>Its the mentality that will end humanity.<<

No it won't. It is defense mechanism the same way your body produces anti bodies. Re read first paragraph. The tribes and nations who lacked this, they are gone.

>>You do get that you are comparing relationships with heinous crimes, right?<<

Treason is a heinous crime. Are you pretending that Norwegian society condoned this back then? That these women didn't know how the others viewed them? They knew perfectly well they just thought they were on the winning side of this. Doing what many women do, searching for men with relative power and status who could get the stuff and provide security. Some of them were Nazis themselves.

>>Would not some view that as treason?<<

Not really no. Very poor passive aggressive attempt of getting personal. DENIED.
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 05:12:07
Nimi
Civic society functioned during the occupation. In fact, it did so after the occupation (a signficiant number of the girls were interned for fratenization after the Germans surrendered under the cloakings of "disease control"

A certain degree of patriotism is fine. Its only when you start thinking of doing horrible things to other people under that banner that you are in trouble.

It was not treason you git. Not a single woman faced that charge due to their relationships.

And yes, marrying even outside your family could be viewed as treason in the culture you come from.

Given your loose use of the term.

You attempt to villify these women. DENIED.
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 05:13:27
lol@nimi thinking he is Swedish.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Oct 21 08:02:20
>>Civic society functioned during the occupation.<<

It can function perfectly well without treason.

>>A certain degree of patriotism is fine.<<

Several degrees actually, it depends on the circumstances and the degree of stress on the nation.

>>It was not treason you git.<<

We disagree you twat.

>>And yes, marrying even outside your family could be viewed as treason in the culture you come from.<<

That may very well be the case in some cases, but outside the scope of this thread.

>>Given your loose use of the term.<<

I am actually be very strict. Aiding and giving comfort to the enemy is treason. I mean maybe what this girls did was not legally "treason" but within the social and cultural context absolutely. The pussy pass is very real, I am sure the manly man that you are, you would have opted for the firing squad. I wouldn't.

>>You attempt to villify these women.<<

Completely wrong. I think that while they got off easy, the punishment they received back then was enough, I mean they are women after all, you expect some of them to behave like treasonous whores when things get tough. I objected to the apology. You should really pay attention to what is being said and ask questions before your brain starts tilting.

>>lol@nimi thinking he is Swedish<<

It has nothing to do with what you think I think I am, but the fact that we met in a third country after being "carried over the border" and have gave up all allegiance to that mother tribe and nation is one of the reasons why your example was brain dead. But I think you have had enough for today. Remember to take your meds today.
Rugian
Member
Sun Oct 21 08:06:18
TIL in this thread: if you refuse to open your legs to a uniformed foreigner who invaded your country, killed your countrymen, stole your national resources, and who represents one of the single most evil causes in all of human history, you are a "scoundrel" and hold a "mentality that will end humanity."

jergul, this is not a sustainable argument.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Oct 21 08:19:13
But not very surprising coming from comrade Jergul, you have to agree :)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Oct 21 12:25:30
Several people here would pick Jergul as one of the first to bettay Norway had the Soviet invaded. Naturally he would be forgiving to other traitors.

I have brought up the MEK and their betrayal in other conversations. I have spoken to many of their sympathizers, they explain coherently. Well from France we couldn’t do anything, so we decided to go to Iraq and join up with Saddam, aid his attempt to invade Iran, so that we can liberate Iran from the Mullahs and Saddam should it be required. Some people are conviced by this. Obviously they were much more active in their treason, the firing squad for them, shaved heads and walk of shame for the girls, eye for an eye.

This 2018 revision of ”total war is bullshit”, yes yes it is a henious thing we should never repeat, but from what I can tell from the history books, it wasn’t a choice.
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 12:59:30
Ruggy
Why thank goodness that was not the argument I was making then.

The Trump sure lives strong in you these days.

Nimi
It was not treason, dimrod. Which was an actual crime that people could and were charged with.

What happened was gross State overreach and petty vigilantism.

Now, don't you have a cousin to marry or something?
jergul
large member
Sun Oct 21 13:06:35
The vigilantes were of course almost exclusively men from the lower social classes aged between 19 and 35. They may have numbered in the 1000nds in total.

About as representative of Norwegian society as the Basij are representative of Iranians.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Oct 22 11:45:31
Jerky
I have already explained it once. It should be enough, it is for me.
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