Utopia Talk / Politics / DoD to deploy 5,000 Soldiers to Border

Aeros Member	Mon Oct 29 12:26:42 Ordered to stop the caravan. Welp, next month is going to be fun. This is also probably not legal under posse comitatus, but our fearless Congress will just be pleased as hell the President is doing their job for them. http://www...avan-troops-border/1805864002/ Pentagon to deploy 5,000 active-duty troops to southern border to halt migrant caravan The Pentagon will deploy up to 5,000 active-duty troops to the U.S.-Mexico border in an effort to prevent members of a migrant caravan from illegally entering the country, a U.S. official said Monday. About 2,100 National Guard troops are already fanned out across the border under an order from President Donald Trump earlier this year. In recent weeks, the president has been warning repeatedly about the dangers posed by a caravan of mostly Central American migrants, which has swelled to an estimated 7,000 people and is continuing its slow trek north through Mexico. Administration officials said last week that they were considering a plan to send up to 1,000 active duty troops to the border, but that deployment has increased to 5,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to publicly discuss the plans before a formal announcement Monday afternoon. The troops are not expected to conduct law enforcement activities, but instead provide backup support to Border Patrol agents manning the border. Typically, migrant caravans travel in numbers to seek safety and avoid risks such as kidnap, rape and extortion. When the last migrant caravan reached the U.S. border in April, a majority of people presented themselves at ports of entry to request asylum, a legal way to enter the United States. The Homeland Security official also said the president is expected to deliver a speech on Tuesday to outline further actions to halt the migrant caravan, which could include limiting, or halting, the ability of migrants to request asylum. That move would be predicated on national security arguments similar to those used to enact Trump's travel ban last year, and would definitely meet the same legal challenges by immigration advocacy and civil rights organizations. Trump on Monday again characterized, without evidence, that the migrant caravan may have "many gang members" and "some very bad people." "Please go back, you will not be admitted into the United States unless you go through the legal process," he tweeted. "This is an invasion of our Country and our Military is waiting for you." The administration's latest moves are the latest in a series of efforts carried out to show a robust response to the migrant caravan as the midterm elections draw closer. Department of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen on Friday showed off a recently-completed section of border fence in Calexico, Calif., that including a plaque proclaiming the "completion of the first section of President Trump’s border wall." That section had been deemed a priority and funded during the Obama administration. On the same day, Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Kevin McAleenan toured ports of entry south of San Diego and explained how additional troops would help secure the border from any attempted rush by the migrants to rush the border. But McAleenan, who described the oncoming caravan as a "law enforcement situation," conceded that despite the added manpower, his agency has no way to speed up the process by which migrants can legally request asylum.
murder Member	Mon Oct 29 12:47:54 What could possibly go wrong?
murder Member	Mon Oct 29 12:49:21 btw, shouldn't Trump's wall be enough to stop the invasion? I'm starting to think that we got sold a bill of goods.
hood Member	Mon Oct 29 12:49:33 Impeachment.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Oct 29 12:50:35 Trump midterm stunts: - fake 10% tax cut - fake claim that R's support covering pre-existing coverage & D's do not - fake claim of 2nd amendment under threat - fake claim of middle easterners in caravan - stunt deployment of military (310,531 people were stopped last year, this caravan is not particularly threatening even though will be Fox News top story every day til election) i'm missing several... can't recall full list, too much flow of BS
Sam Adams Member	Mon Oct 29 13:15:58 "This is also probably not legal under posse comitatus" I dunno, defending the border is not "within" the US
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Oct 29 13:59:33 the speculation is the 'invasion' term is to get around posse comitatus ...random fact: that jew killer was also happy about calling them invaders rather than illegals
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Oct 29 17:19:52 Shep Smith cutting through the BS again... i'm guessing he sits alone in the lunch room http://twitter.com/passantino/status/1057013271859994624
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Oct 29 17:20:53 listen to the audio not just the quote... noting how the caravan is a long ways away, no reason except the midterms to be calling up military now
patom Member	Mon Oct 29 19:07:58 OMG, I'm really really scared now. They are going to invade Maine.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Oct 29 21:02:07 The article doesn't say anything about the Tanks. Where are the Tanks?
hood Member	Mon Oct 29 21:23:56 Coward rod is so afraid he needs tanks to protect from homeless refugees.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Mon Oct 29 21:40:36 Have you seen those "homeless refugees?" They are mostly mid-20s to early 30's and fighting ready. They should stay home and fight for democracy.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Oct 29 21:43:03 apparently there are too many anti-tank rockets being carried by the army of criminals & terrorists with the unknown diseases
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 30 04:47:32 Then bring in the fighter-bombers.
jergul large member	Tue Oct 30 05:21:18 I don't think that will work. I have it on reliable authority that Russia has supplied the invaders with several regiments of long distance SAMs
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 30 06:37:39 So instead of building a wall, Trump will build tent cities to host thousands of asylum seekers. lol owned Trump says U.S. will build "tent cities" to host asylum seekers President Trump, during an interview with Fox News' Laura Ingraham on Monday, said that his administration plans to build "tent cities" to hold immigrants who have entered the U.S., applied for asylum and are awaiting trial. "If they apply for asylum, we are going to hold them ... We are going to build tent cities. We're going to put tents up all over the place. http://www...29-4d6a-b947-94d8356cbeaa.html
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 30 06:45:01 "We're not going to build structures (a wall) and ... spend all of these of hundreds of millions of dollars. We are going to have tents, they are going to be very nice" - Trump Tents are better than walls.
murder Member	Tue Oct 30 07:23:42 Trump already backed down like a bitch. He's sending the army ... not to stop the caravan, but to house the immigrants. Trump supporters never get tired of getting skunked by this fraud.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 30 09:06:48 Paramount - So instead of building a wall, Trump will build tent cities to host thousands of asylum seekers. lol owned That is exactly what I have been thinking we should do. Most of those seeking asylum will be denied and returned to their home country. Those who **might** qualify, instead of catch and release, will reside in a tent in the desert until they can go before the court. I do not know what the tents will look like but a WWII squad tent was pretty big and a family of four should be comfortable in one. They will probably have to share a latrine and mess hall with others.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 30 09:17:11 Oops, sorry.
patom Member	Tue Oct 30 09:18:19 Damn, If he wants a temporary city built by the military. Shouldn't he be calling for the Seabees?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 30 09:21:54 The army has some pretty good engineers too. I used to be one. The 110 Engineer Combat Battalion, 35th Division.
hood Member	Tue Oct 30 09:36:44 Gotta love the cowardice. Wall? No? Well that's ok, it isn't like it was the main rallying cry of his entire campaign that he's now giving up on. For tent cities. That's some third world shit.
McKobb Member	Tue Oct 30 11:16:33 So we got thousands of unemployed peoples that want in without a job. Maybe they can help build a wall for quick assylum.
Paramount Member	Tue Oct 30 11:27:25 Where are all those tents made? In China?
patom Member	Tue Oct 30 13:41:59 If they buy them at Walmart they are made in China.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Tue Oct 30 16:05:30 I doubt they pay retail.
jergul large member	Wed Oct 31 09:42:44 Its the DoD. It pays far, far, more than retail.
Aeros Member	Wed Oct 31 10:08:31 They will probably be surplus army shit from the Iraq War, unless we left all that shit overseas. The modular CHU were actually pretty comfy.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 31 10:44:49 hood - Gotta love the cowardice. Wall? No? Well that's ok, it isn't like it was the main rallying cry of his entire campaign that he's now giving up on. For tent cities. He has not given up on the wall. It will get built and Mexico will pay for it. The tent cities will be for those who are requesting asylum. What was done before was they were given a court date, about three years in the future I believe and then they were released. (Catch and Release). What will happen in the future is they will be escorted to a tent city where they will be taken care of until their court date. Trump is doing everything he can to speed up access to the courts but they will be stuck in the desert until it is their turn to be heard in court. No matter how long that takes.
Delude Member	Wed Oct 31 11:03:04 Is it a pride thing for being this dumb? It must be a pride thing.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 31 12:03:41 Deluded, what is dumb. That is how things work. Do you have proof to the contrary?
Paramount Member	Wed Oct 31 12:03:41 ”That is exactly what I have been thinking we should do.” - Hot Rod Okay, but weren’t you talking about the wall earlier and how Trump should build the wall? So while you were talking about the wall you were actually thinking about how Trump should build tent cities instead?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 31 12:09:32 Not instead. In addition to. They are two different problems
Paramount Member	Wed Oct 31 12:20:14 So why didn’t Trump talk about tent citites earlier, like during his campaign for an example?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 31 12:23:35 He never thought of it until recently I would guess.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 31 12:23:59 here's Trump still hyping the situation today: " The Caravans are made up of some very tough fighters and people. Fought back hard and viciously against Mexico at Northern Border before breaking through. Mexican soldiers hurt, were unable, or unwilling to stop Caravan. Should stop them before they reach our Border, but won’t! Our military is being mobilized at the Southern Border. Many more troops coming. We will NOT let these Caravans, which are also made up of some very bad thugs and gang members, into the U.S. Our Border is sacred, must come in legally. TURN AROUND! "
Hot Rod Revved Up	Wed Oct 31 15:30:35 He is talking about up to 15,000 troops, plus border patrol, and ICE will be manning the border. I wonder what kinds of weapons we will use? Rubber bullets and bean bags or just the standard tear gas. Or nothing. Also, I wonder if Mexico gave us a no mans land so we can have a little room to work with. It is said that if they get just one foot in our country we have to let them in.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Oct 31 15:35:27 "I wonder what kinds of weapons " NONE, as they are not allowed to actually intercept anyone it will be engineers fixing vehicles & building tents... PURE STUNT
Paramount Member	Wed Oct 31 15:40:10 Why not deploy Fox News reporters at the border. They could kick at the refugees so that they trip. With a little luck they might break a bone and be unable to move forward.
patom Member	Thu Nov 01 08:45:17 The Twitterman now wants 15,000 troops on the border. I wonder if they will qualify for hazardous duty pay?
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 10:52:30 SecDef Jim Mattis says the DoD does not do stunts. I believe him. He was a tough no-nonsense Marine Corp. General. I doubt he has changed. The 15,000 are in addition to the Engineers and Doctors and other support personnel. He is pulling frontline troops from all around the country including Airborne from Ft. Bragg.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 11:03:19 is anyone acknowledging they can't touch the caravan people? who will probably just file in peacefully as asylum seekers which is legal stunt all the 'active duty' talk will dissipate after midterms
Delude Member	Thu Nov 01 11:12:51 Hilarious that all the trumptards think this caravan is like the first of it's kind.
Dukhat Member	Thu Nov 01 12:03:13 Trump going all in with his lies. Blatant attempt to rev up his idiot base.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 12:25:05 it got him elected, why stop defiling the office isn't a concern of his
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 15:51:35 Trump says everyone will be held in tent cities until court dates, and throwing rocks will be considered the same as a firearm... so... we get to start shooting them Israel-style
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Nov 01 16:05:25 ^ anti-semite
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 16:52:15 tw - who will probably just file in peacefully as asylum seekers which is legal It may be legal but the custom is to go to the next country and stop there. tw - Hilarious that all the trumptards think this caravan is like the first of it's kind. No, but obviously it won't be the last. Two more caravans are forming right now. I just hope they don't try the same things with our troops that they did with the Mexicans. It won't work. tw, we get to start shooting them Israel-style We? I thought you were on the other side.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 17:23:32 This will be a good exercise in case Canada ever decides to invade us.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 17:56:03 you really expect them to storm the border don't you? Trump acted like they had defeated Mexico's military in his White House/rally speech today
delude Member	Thu Nov 01 18:02:52 Previous caravans that have done this simply dwindled, or made it to the border and then legally applied for asylum where most didn't get it. And you have hot rods, trumptards, and trump himself placating this as an invasion. what a bunch of fucking twits you all are. More troops have been sent to babysit the "invaders" than were sent to fight ISIS. lol
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 19:18:17 tw, they overpowered the troops that Mexico sent to stop them. If you call that defeating them then I guess they did. Deluded, AFAIK there was only one caravan before and I have no idea how Obama handled them. However, if they show up at the border and then they obey the orders given them, such as go to a proper entry point and apply properly then the troops will have served their purpose. There certainly will ***NOT*** be a Catch and Release.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Nov 01 19:30:40 "There certainly will ***NOT*** be a Catch and Release." and if there is a Catch and Release,it's cause something obama did,some kenyan voodoo or something.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 19:35:20 No, it will be because a few thousand unarmed stragglers overpowered well trained and, conceivably, well armed seasoned troops.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Nov 01 19:36:10 like I said,kenyan voodoo .
Pillz Member	Thu Nov 01 19:47:25 Not voodoo. They most likely entered the service under Obama. Plants.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 19:55:48 No, not voodoo. Not going to happen.
I will lie lie lie Member	Thu Nov 01 20:01:03 ^
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 20:39:28 Are you going to take that back when the truth kicks you in the balls? Thought not.
I will lie lie lie Member	Thu Nov 01 20:58:22 ^
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 21:21:34 Trump claimed only 3% of asylum seekers show up for court... actual number ~75%, and much higher with cheap ankle monitoring, but Trump ended that How much will it cost to house, feed, and keep guns aimed at these people, I wonder. That's if this tent thing even happening, some General in charge said on Tuesday he had only been given orders for tents to house themselves and border agents.
patom Member	Thu Nov 01 21:58:03 The Twitterman has now stated that if the immigrants throw rocks our troops are to shoot them across the border. What a brave and heroic POTUS we have.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 22:24:12 that's an order from the commander-in-chief, so they better do it too bad the caravan is still so far away, some atrocities before the midterms would be helpful... or maybe he'd just get another mulligan from team Jesus
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 22:53:54 tw, they are building housing for the troops. The tents are for asylum seekers and you should know better than to listen to your fake news. 75% - LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 22:58:31 patom, I have not heard that. Only part of the troops will be armed. My guess is only the better-disciplined troops will be armed such as Green Berets and Military Police And perhaps Airborne.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:07:28 paton, here. Knock yourself out. http://www...AhVd7I-KhaNUnC7eHrMkYKfXQSB5us
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:08:57 Sorry, patom
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 23:12:46 “With respect to Operation Faithful Patriot as it sits right now, the request that we have from Department of Homeland Security and [Customs and Border Protection] is to build tents to support CBP personnel and our military personnel.” ~U.S. Northern Commander Gen. Terrence O'Shaughnessy (important sounding guy) ------------ "When they throw rocks like what they did to the Mexican military and police I say consider it a rifle." ~Trump today ...but likely none will be armed as this is a stunt... the military is not allowed to participate in immigration issues ----------- Total immigration cases 2017: 169,150 (w/ 40,579 'in absentia') so 24% didn't show http://cis...tion-Court-Statistics-Released cite a source for 3%... other than Trump's ass
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:18:29 My last was for you too.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 23:20:08 "beaten to death with a rock" not exactly equivalent
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 23:22:18 "but I will tell you this—anybody throwing rocks...we will consider that a firearm, because there's not much difference when you get hit in the face with a rock” ~Trump (today) i'm guessing not a lot of research done into that claim
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:29:58 "The vast majority of Central American applicants are denied asylum protections in the end, but once they are living and working in the United States they often disregard court orders to leave the country and remain illegally. That is the “loophole” the Trump administration says it is seeking to close by tightening asylum rules." http://www...rect=on&utm_term=.bbb6933aed0b Best I could do for now, I'm off to bed.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:35:24 tw, close enough. Have you ever heard of stoning? Get enough people throwing enough rocks and you are going to die. Ever heard of David? It only took him one rock and a sling.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Thu Nov 01 23:35:56 G'Night chaps.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 23:37:56 i don't see 3% or 97% anywhere... blast from the past, about the caravan in April, Trump made up this claim based on nothing: "women are raped at levels that nobody has ever seen before"
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Nov 01 23:41:23 i'm not suggesting there aren't occasions rock throwers could be dangerous "anybody throwing rocks...we will consider that a firearm" that's blanket policy... that commanders will likely ignore, as they always do w/ Trump ideas
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 02 02:46:23 Trump delegated operation decisions t the commanders on the ground. Both times it was an outstanding success.
American Democrat Member	Fri Nov 02 05:26:00 "Trump delegated operation decisions t the commanders on the ground." Except he didn't during the speech and the Q&A he gave. He expressed that he had said they had better treat it as a rifle. Is Trump not the current commander in chief? Regardless level-headed individuals who happened to be former Sec. of Defense or former generals expressed this is a violation of law in rule and engagements. As for your link; and I am sure you didn't read it because you based it on the headline only. They are still uncertain of what caused the injuries or death of the BPA. But if you want to go that route of painting how terribly violent these people are. Then let's review the anecdotal of instances where they have caught border patrol agents who have violated their oath to their country and job. 1) agent caught as a serial killer 2) caught as a serial rapist 3) caught as a drug smuggler 4) caught as a weapons and arms dealer 5) caught part of human trafficking. Approximately 210 cases of corruption by border patrol agents. Does this mean that the walking caravan from thousands of miles away as their numbers decrease have more to worry from BPA than the US from the migrants. OR should the US be more concerned about the corruption that appears to be plaguing the border with the current officers? It seems you have more criminal activities from BPA than versus the statistics used in the country showing that those who are immigrants or illegal immigrants in the country. Trump is using this as a political platform and those who are too lazy to dig further information, or rather take snippets that promote their distorted perception use it. This is not exclusive to the Republicans. But it is echoed more by them and Trump's base eats it up because facts and truth do no matter to them. His rhetoric permeates their brains. It is sad when the President who accuses others of lying is the sole liar in chief to use the White House as the stage to continue the perpetuation lies and misleads. It is no wonder why those who are of Hot Rod's mentality are so easily swayed. But then again, with recent conversations, it seems Hot Rod has been that way for most of his life. I am attempting not make him the focus point, but he is a good example of a person who does neglect factual information out there, has a lack of knowledge, or simply enjoys being played.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 05:32:50 "Ever heard of David? It only took him one rock and a sling." Did you really just try to use a myth to justify military use of force? You stupid, stupid person.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 02 06:43:37 LOL. Were you there?
patom Member	Fri Nov 02 07:23:37 Hot Rod, From the Twittermans lips to your ears http://www...nts-throw-rocks-003953495.html
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 07:32:45 "LOL. Were you there?" So dumb that you actually think this is an argument.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 02 07:40:17 And yours was an infantile rejoinder.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 07:45:21 And you still remain a dumbass.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 07:46:41 Notice how your avoiding the discussion again. What a pathetic person you are to use a myth as an argument, Mr. Atheist
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 02 08:07:53 Are you saying that a young man with a sling and the right sized rock could not bring down a full grown man? There is one thing you should know about the bible. While much of the New Testament is based on myth, there really was a teacher from Nazareth named Jesus. He was not the Son of God, he was a teacher much like Muhammad, his teachings were much more palatable than the gobbledegook that Muhammad spewed all over the desert. Just as there was a young boy named David in the Old Testament who later became The King of Israel. And, there was a man named Jesus in the New Testament. I fully agree that both books of the Bible are filled with Myth, However, much of it is good, solid, sound, History. If you cannot agree to that then you are a fool.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 08:31:56 "Are you saying that a young man with a sling and the right sized rock could not bring down a full grown man?" Never stated nor inferred that. But comparisons to a caravan with no or little documentation of violence versus active duty train soldiers where it it is indicated that it would be a violation of rules of engagement to fire upon those who happen to throw rocks is taken into consideration versus bible story. This makes you stupid.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Fri Nov 02 09:08:08 What rules of engagement? You are the only one that has mentioned them. FYI, the ROE is what President determines what they will be. He could order the illegals to be shot if they step on the grass. And you call me stupid.
Cold Rod Member	Fri Nov 02 09:22:26 "What rules of engagement? You are the only one that has mentioned them." Incorrect. American Democrat did. Look once again another example of you being dismissive. "FYI, the ROE is what President determines what they will be. He could order the illegals to be shot if they step on the grass. And you call me stupid." Yes I called you stupid. Ample of examples as to why.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Nov 02 11:43:48 "We had rocks thrown at us all the time in Afghanistan. Responding with lethal force is a fucking war crime." ~ some guy
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Nov 02 13:58:33 Trump has backpedaled quickly: "I didn't say shoot... they will be arrested" how could anyone have gotten the idea he meant shoot i wonder...
TJ Member	Fri Nov 02 14:19:00 If I was unfortunate enough that I found myself in the existing caravan I'd be flying an American flag rather than the Country flag I was fleeing. Carrying a foreign flag creates additional doubt in a lot of Americans when they are seeking entry into the States.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Nov 03 04:35:47 I don't read half of what AD posts. He is almost as stupid as you are.
American Democrat Member	Sat Nov 03 05:42:57 Well thanks Hot Rod, is it because what I say is accurate information based upon facts? I know you have a hard time with facts, but that is okay. I mean, this was rather absolute when you wanted to debate about the Constitutional Law and you couldn't even grasp simple understanding of words and wanted to do your best manipulate the meanings. Anytime you want to go over that topic again, I'm all about it. But I will give you this opportunity, what did I say in this thread was inaccurate that you avoided it? It is because I did address some of what you said was wrong?
Memory Lane Member	Sat Nov 03 06:09:17 I remember hot rod is a kind hearted person when it came to immigrants and their children. "Hot Rod Jul 9th, 2008 6:38 AM Babies should be confiscated and burned like any other narcotic." I drink and remember things.
patom Member	Sat Nov 03 08:58:46 Hot Rod, FYI, the ROE is what President determines what they will be. He could order the illegals to be shot if they step on the grass. Ah what a great leader we have in the Twitterman. Demonstrating his manliness for all the world to gape in amazement at his unmatched bravery and courage. Why he is even willing to let some troops take the heat if a few unarmed civilians are shot. What a man. Dilly Dilly!
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Nov 03 12:45:18 Silly, he is not going to do that. The RoE may be to return fire if fired upon and the MP's may be the only ones with authority to return fire. Or he may do as the Isralies do, use snipers and tear gas if it comes to that. In the pictures and film of the troops I've seen arriving I don't see any weapons. It appears they were left behind.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Nov 03 12:55:45 -30-
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