Utopia Talk - Politics - Chicago taxes fun

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Utopia Talk / Politics / Chicago taxes fun

Sam Adams
rank Sat Nov 10 09:29:41 2018
http://www...ue/tax_list/amusement_tax.html

Hot Rod
rank Sat Nov 10 09:45:43 2018

Are they sure 9% is enough?

Perhaps they should double or triple that amount.

How about a 100% tax. That should do it.

Paramount
rank Sun Nov 11 01:37:42 2018
Sweden had an amusement/entertainment tax in 1919. We abolished it in 1963.

Dukhat
rank Sun Nov 11 05:09:57 2018
The price you pay to live in a big city that has some culture (relative to shitty rural areas). That and the horrible houing prices.

But if you live in a cheap metro like Houston, there's almost no culture. It's just bbq and strip malls.

Hot Rod
rank Sun Nov 11 07:49:03 2018

And movies and sports events and concerts.

There used to be a federal excise tax on movies to help finance WWII. Not sure if it is still in effect or not.

Paramount
rank Sun Nov 11 11:14:50 2018
So what is Chicago collecting money for? Or are they doing this because they want less people to have fun? Maybe people has had way too much fun lately, and now the city feels that people needs to calm down a bit, so the introduce this tax.

Daemon
rank Sun Nov 11 13:10:07 2018
Another fun tax, article from 2011:

http://www...bonn-prostitutes-a-783438.html

Sex Tax Machine Introduced for Bonn Prostitutes

Prostitution is a legal and taxable trade in Germany, but enforcing taxes among sex workers on the street can be problematic. The city of Bonn has come up with a new solution, though. Prostitutes must now pay a nightly tax to automated ticket machines.

Hot Rod
rank Sun Nov 11 14:51:02 2018

Paramount, Chicago is one of the worst run cities in the country. It has been the victim of machine politics for decades.

I'm not sure, but Daly politics may still rule.

They are liberal of course.

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 15:23:20 2018
"Chicago has the third-largest gross metropolitan product in the United States—about $670.5 billion according to September 2017 estimates.[166] The city has also been rated as having the most balanced economy in the United States, due to its high level of diversification"

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 15:30:43 2018
Yes, I suppose drug dealing, corruption, and murder for hire is a very diverse economic mix.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 15:47:30 2018
1950 3,620,962 6.6%
1960 3,550,404 −1.9%
1970 3,366,957 −5.2%
1980 3,005,072 −10.7%
1990 2,783,726 −7.4%
2000 2,896,016 4.0%
2010 2,695,598 −6.9%
Est. 2017 2,716,450 [5]0.8%

That looks healthy.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 15:54:10 2018
Meanwhile, the MSA has gone from 5,495,364 to 9,461,105 in that same period. Which indicates that despite having a solid economic base, Chicago proper is suffering either from housing or quality of life issues.

Well managed city indeed.

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 16:34:30 2018
"Population estimates in 2008 put the number of people in the city proper at 2,853,114, while suburban populations continue to grow, with estimates at 9,785,747 for the combined city and suburbs"

Chicago proper is still one of the most densly populated cities in the US.

Let go of the hatred, son.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 17:02:12 2018
jergul, look at it this way.

Chicago entered the mid-20th century as an absolutely massive economic powerhouse (2nd largest city in the country, with 2.4% of the entire national population). It predictably spent the next decades getting screwed over by suburbanization and white flight. Unlike Detroit or Buffalo, its economic base was gigantic and diverse enough to not completely implode from deindustrialization, and once suburbanization ended it was able to stage the beginnings of a modest recovery in the '90s.

And since then...? Anemic to negative growth. Why is this?

-We know it's not because of any sort of overall national decline - US population is up 16% since 2000.

-We know it's not because this is an inevitability with older metros; cities like NYC (and Boston!) have had healthy and stable growth rates since the '90s.

-We know it's not because Chicago's economy is in decline - the MSA growing as it has indicates to the contrary.

Bottom line, Chicago has been able to exploit what was already a humongous economy and keep it growing, which is good. At the same time, it's failed to expand or even maintain its tax base in the post-suburbanization era. That's not good. Clearly something is wrong with this picture.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 17:06:45 2018
Actually, perhaps I've given Chicago too much credit on the economic front (from 2017):

"Chicago area loses population for 3rd straight year

----

While the declines weren’t enough to knock the Chicago metropolitan area out of its spot as the third-most-populous metropolitan area, it was the only one in the country’s top 10 that saw a decrease rather than an increase in population, according to the Census Bureau."

http://www...population-20180320-story.html

Not good, jergul.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 17:11:06 2018
Best case scenario: Chicago is good at retaining and growing its economic power, but at the same time it has either priced out or scared off the population growth that should have come with that economic clout.

Worst case scenario, the Chicago area is in overall decline, due to disease at the center.

Either way, not good.

TJ
rank Sun Nov 11 18:15:16 2018
Because of the diminishing growth in Illinois it has lost at least one electoral vote after each of the last four Censuses. It is currently on track to lose two more after the 2020 presidential election.

Illinois, because of Chicago, has voted Democratic in the last seven general elections. It isn't the only Midwest State that is diminishing in growth and losing electoral power. Ohio is another, which is the next highest electorate in the Midwest.

Maybe it's fake news. Maybe the best question is: Where is their flight taking them?

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 20:08:23 2018
Ruggy
The number for the Chicago metropolitan area look fine. I tend to mean that when speaking of "Chicago" in the same way I would think of London to encompass more than the 9 000 people that live in the City of London proper.

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 20:16:26 2018
TJ
Illinois has a post-industrial grown pattern. Or slightly less than what the US would have without imigration (your overall population is still growing naturally thanks only to hispanic birthrates - that is responsible for half of US natural growth despite being only 17% of the population).

From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 20:27:22 2018
Jergul,

The problem with that comparison is that Greater London is an actual administrative unit, with a full-scale municipal government in place. The Chicago MSA is not and does not.

Also, Hot Rod specifically mentioned that he was talking about the city.

TJ
rank Sun Nov 11 20:52:11 2018
Today's Chicago Tribune article.
Editorial: Genesis of the Illinois exodus

http://www...is-chicago-20180426-story.html

For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine.

But in Illinois the census data suggested a stable outlook: Over the past 25 years about 65,000 more people voluntarily left the state each year than arrived. That is, net state-to-state migration was chipping away at Illinois at a steady pace. Yet this state’s total population continued to grow. One major reason: immigration from other countries.

That overall trend stopped several years ago, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures. The net domestic migration shortfall in Illinois grew from 68,204 in 2013 to 93,704 in 2014. That’s a lot more people leaving the state than coming. The negative number grew again in 2015 (106,544) and 2016 (109,941). In 2017 the situation turned even uglier: The number of people moving from Illinois to another state outstripped arrivals by 114,779.

As I have said: It could be fake news :)

"From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere."

Possible that they don't like the winter weather or maybe it is a matter of economics.

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 20:58:10 2018
NYC and Boston both have huge Hispanic populations. Weather isn't the problem.

TJ
rank Sun Nov 11 20:59:19 2018
Economics it is then. :)

Rugian
rank Sun Nov 11 21:05:17 2018
The problem here is not "why is the Chicago area declining," because it's not. The Chicago MSA has a healthy growth rate, whereas other Rust Belt cities that have *truly* imploded, like Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo, have had virtually no MSA growth in decades. Unlike those cities, Chicago had been able to enter the age of de-industrialization with other existing industries in place, so it was better able to reposition itself once the manufacturing jobs went away.

What's at issue here is why City of Chicago can't seem to grow in population in an age where living in cities is fashionable again. The area is growing, but people prefer to remain outside of the city.

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 21:28:50 2018
Ruggy
It could be their websites. I tried opening a zoning map over Chicago. Life is too short.

You are right. It would be interesting to know why the population in Chicago is not growing. Doing that is starting to look like work.

Not that population growth is a goal in itself.

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 22:08:21 2018
http://www...ago-Area-Is-Losing-Population/

jergul
rank Sun Nov 11 22:11:38 2018
http://www...go-segregation-poverty/556649/

TJ
rank Sun Nov 11 23:23:23 2018
I read those links several hours ago. I also viewed the following. It was giving my system some trouble though.

http://www...on/chicagos-wealth-divide.html

Hot Rod
rank Mon Nov 12 04:57:55 2018

TJ - For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine.

Not sure if the magnitude is the same, but California is basically doing the same thing.

Californians are moving to Texas in large numbers and, unfortunately, it is ruining the voter spread. That is probably why Cruz almost lost the election this year I believe.

Dukhat
rank Mon Nov 12 11:34:50 2018
Long-winded bullshit fron Rugiab again. Why shouls raw population the end-all metric?

That's because it isn't dumbass. Why not study being an electrician or something and stop embarassikg yourself.

show deleted posts

Sam Adams rank	Sat Nov 10 09:29:41 2018 http://www...ue/tax_list/amusement_tax.html
Hot Rod rank	Sat Nov 10 09:45:43 2018 Are they sure 9% is enough? Perhaps they should double or triple that amount. How about a 100% tax. That should do it.
Paramount rank	Sun Nov 11 01:37:42 2018 Sweden had an amusement/entertainment tax in 1919. We abolished it in 1963.
Dukhat rank	Sun Nov 11 05:09:57 2018 The price you pay to live in a big city that has some culture (relative to shitty rural areas). That and the horrible houing prices. But if you live in a cheap metro like Houston, there's almost no culture. It's just bbq and strip malls.
Hot Rod rank	Sun Nov 11 07:49:03 2018 And movies and sports events and concerts. There used to be a federal excise tax on movies to help finance WWII. Not sure if it is still in effect or not.
Paramount rank	Sun Nov 11 11:14:50 2018 So what is Chicago collecting money for? Or are they doing this because they want less people to have fun? Maybe people has had way too much fun lately, and now the city feels that people needs to calm down a bit, so the introduce this tax.
Daemon rank	Sun Nov 11 13:10:07 2018 Another fun tax, article from 2011: http://www...bonn-prostitutes-a-783438.html Sex Tax Machine Introduced for Bonn Prostitutes Prostitution is a legal and taxable trade in Germany, but enforcing taxes among sex workers on the street can be problematic. The city of Bonn has come up with a new solution, though. Prostitutes must now pay a nightly tax to automated ticket machines.
Hot Rod rank	Sun Nov 11 14:51:02 2018 Paramount, Chicago is one of the worst run cities in the country. It has been the victim of machine politics for decades. I'm not sure, but Daly politics may still rule. They are liberal of course.
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 15:23:20 2018 "Chicago has the third-largest gross metropolitan product in the United States—about $670.5 billion according to September 2017 estimates.[166] The city has also been rated as having the most balanced economy in the United States, due to its high level of diversification"
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 15:30:43 2018 Yes, I suppose drug dealing, corruption, and murder for hire is a very diverse economic mix.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 15:47:30 2018 1950 3,620,962 6.6% 1960 3,550,404 −1.9% 1970 3,366,957 −5.2% 1980 3,005,072 −10.7% 1990 2,783,726 −7.4% 2000 2,896,016 4.0% 2010 2,695,598 −6.9% Est. 2017 2,716,450 [5]0.8% That looks healthy.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 15:54:10 2018 Meanwhile, the MSA has gone from 5,495,364 to 9,461,105 in that same period. Which indicates that despite having a solid economic base, Chicago proper is suffering either from housing or quality of life issues. Well managed city indeed.
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 16:34:30 2018 "Population estimates in 2008 put the number of people in the city proper at 2,853,114, while suburban populations continue to grow, with estimates at 9,785,747 for the combined city and suburbs" Chicago proper is still one of the most densly populated cities in the US. Let go of the hatred, son.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 17:02:12 2018 jergul, look at it this way. Chicago entered the mid-20th century as an absolutely massive economic powerhouse (2nd largest city in the country, with 2.4% of the entire national population). It predictably spent the next decades getting screwed over by suburbanization and white flight. Unlike Detroit or Buffalo, its economic base was gigantic and diverse enough to not completely implode from deindustrialization, and once suburbanization ended it was able to stage the beginnings of a modest recovery in the '90s. And since then...? Anemic to negative growth. Why is this? -We know it's not because of any sort of overall national decline - US population is up 16% since 2000. -We know it's not because this is an inevitability with older metros; cities like NYC (and Boston!) have had healthy and stable growth rates since the '90s. -We know it's not because Chicago's economy is in decline - the MSA growing as it has indicates to the contrary. Bottom line, Chicago has been able to exploit what was already a humongous economy and keep it growing, which is good. At the same time, it's failed to expand or even maintain its tax base in the post-suburbanization era. That's not good. Clearly something is wrong with this picture.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 17:06:45 2018 Actually, perhaps I've given Chicago too much credit on the economic front (from 2017): "Chicago area loses population for 3rd straight year ---- While the declines weren’t enough to knock the Chicago metropolitan area out of its spot as the third-most-populous metropolitan area, it was the only one in the country’s top 10 that saw a decrease rather than an increase in population, according to the Census Bureau." http://www...population-20180320-story.html Not good, jergul.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 17:11:06 2018 Best case scenario: Chicago is good at retaining and growing its economic power, but at the same time it has either priced out or scared off the population growth that should have come with that economic clout. Worst case scenario, the Chicago area is in overall decline, due to disease at the center. Either way, not good.
TJ rank	Sun Nov 11 18:15:16 2018 Because of the diminishing growth in Illinois it has lost at least one electoral vote after each of the last four Censuses. It is currently on track to lose two more after the 2020 presidential election. Illinois, because of Chicago, has voted Democratic in the last seven general elections. It isn't the only Midwest State that is diminishing in growth and losing electoral power. Ohio is another, which is the next highest electorate in the Midwest. Maybe it's fake news. Maybe the best question is: Where is their flight taking them?
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 20:08:23 2018 Ruggy The number for the Chicago metropolitan area look fine. I tend to mean that when speaking of "Chicago" in the same way I would think of London to encompass more than the 9 000 people that live in the City of London proper.
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 20:16:26 2018 TJ Illinois has a post-industrial grown pattern. Or slightly less than what the US would have without imigration (your overall population is still growing naturally thanks only to hispanic birthrates - that is responsible for half of US natural growth despite being only 17% of the population). From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 20:27:22 2018 Jergul, The problem with that comparison is that Greater London is an actual administrative unit, with a full-scale municipal government in place. The Chicago MSA is not and does not. Also, Hot Rod specifically mentioned that he was talking about the city.
TJ rank	Sun Nov 11 20:52:11 2018 Today's Chicago Tribune article. Editorial: Genesis of the Illinois exodus http://www...is-chicago-20180426-story.html For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine. But in Illinois the census data suggested a stable outlook: Over the past 25 years about 65,000 more people voluntarily left the state each year than arrived. That is, net state-to-state migration was chipping away at Illinois at a steady pace. Yet this state’s total population continued to grow. One major reason: immigration from other countries. That overall trend stopped several years ago, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures. The net domestic migration shortfall in Illinois grew from 68,204 in 2013 to 93,704 in 2014. That’s a lot more people leaving the state than coming. The negative number grew again in 2015 (106,544) and 2016 (109,941). In 2017 the situation turned even uglier: The number of people moving from Illinois to another state outstripped arrivals by 114,779. As I have said: It could be fake news :) "From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere." Possible that they don't like the winter weather or maybe it is a matter of economics.
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 20:58:10 2018 NYC and Boston both have huge Hispanic populations. Weather isn't the problem.
TJ rank	Sun Nov 11 20:59:19 2018 Economics it is then. :)
Rugian rank	Sun Nov 11 21:05:17 2018 The problem here is not "why is the Chicago area declining," because it's not. The Chicago MSA has a healthy growth rate, whereas other Rust Belt cities that have truly imploded, like Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo, have had virtually no MSA growth in decades. Unlike those cities, Chicago had been able to enter the age of de-industrialization with other existing industries in place, so it was better able to reposition itself once the manufacturing jobs went away. What's at issue here is why City of Chicago can't seem to grow in population in an age where living in cities is fashionable again. The area is growing, but people prefer to remain outside of the city.
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 21:28:50 2018 Ruggy It could be their websites. I tried opening a zoning map over Chicago. Life is too short. You are right. It would be interesting to know why the population in Chicago is not growing. Doing that is starting to look like work. Not that population growth is a goal in itself.
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 22:08:21 2018 http://www...ago-Area-Is-Losing-Population/
jergul rank	Sun Nov 11 22:11:38 2018 http://www...go-segregation-poverty/556649/
TJ rank	Sun Nov 11 23:23:23 2018 I read those links several hours ago. I also viewed the following. It was giving my system some trouble though. http://www...on/chicagos-wealth-divide.html
Hot Rod rank	Mon Nov 12 04:57:55 2018 TJ - For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine. Not sure if the magnitude is the same, but California is basically doing the same thing. Californians are moving to Texas in large numbers and, unfortunately, it is ruining the voter spread. That is probably why Cruz almost lost the election this year I believe.
Dukhat rank	Mon Nov 12 11:34:50 2018 Long-winded bullshit fron Rugiab again. Why shouls raw population the end-all metric? That's because it isn't dumbass. Why not study being an electrician or something and stop embarassikg yourself.
	show deleted posts

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