Utopia Talk - Politics - Chicago taxes fun

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Utopia Talk / Politics / Chicago taxes fun

Sam Adams
Member Sat Nov 10 01:29:41
http://www...ue/tax_list/amusement_tax.html

Hot Rod
Revved Up Sat Nov 10 01:45:43

Are they sure 9% is enough?

Perhaps they should double or triple that amount.

How about a 100% tax. That should do it.

Paramount
Member Sat Nov 10 17:37:42
Sweden had an amusement/entertainment tax in 1919. We abolished it in 1963.

Dukhat
Member Sat Nov 10 21:09:57
The price you pay to live in a big city that has some culture (relative to shitty rural areas). That and the horrible houing prices.

But if you live in a cheap metro like Houston, there's almost no culture. It's just bbq and strip malls.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Sat Nov 10 23:49:03

And movies and sports events and concerts.

There used to be a federal excise tax on movies to help finance WWII. Not sure if it is still in effect or not.

Paramount
Member Sun Nov 11 03:14:50
So what is Chicago collecting money for? Or are they doing this because they want less people to have fun? Maybe people has had way too much fun lately, and now the city feels that people needs to calm down a bit, so the introduce this tax.

Daemon
Member Sun Nov 11 05:10:07
Another fun tax, article from 2011:

http://www...bonn-prostitutes-a-783438.html

Sex Tax Machine Introduced for Bonn Prostitutes

Prostitution is a legal and taxable trade in Germany, but enforcing taxes among sex workers on the street can be problematic. The city of Bonn has come up with a new solution, though. Prostitutes must now pay a nightly tax to automated ticket machines.

Hot Rod
Revved Up Sun Nov 11 06:51:02

Paramount, Chicago is one of the worst run cities in the country. It has been the victim of machine politics for decades.

I'm not sure, but Daly politics may still rule.

They are liberal of course.

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 07:23:20
"Chicago has the third-largest gross metropolitan product in the United States—about $670.5 billion according to September 2017 estimates.[166] The city has also been rated as having the most balanced economy in the United States, due to its high level of diversification"

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 07:30:43
Yes, I suppose drug dealing, corruption, and murder for hire is a very diverse economic mix.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 07:47:30
1950 3,620,962 6.6%
1960 3,550,404 −1.9%
1970 3,366,957 −5.2%
1980 3,005,072 −10.7%
1990 2,783,726 −7.4%
2000 2,896,016 4.0%
2010 2,695,598 −6.9%
Est. 2017 2,716,450 [5]0.8%

That looks healthy.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 07:54:10
Meanwhile, the MSA has gone from 5,495,364 to 9,461,105 in that same period. Which indicates that despite having a solid economic base, Chicago proper is suffering either from housing or quality of life issues.

Well managed city indeed.

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 08:34:30
"Population estimates in 2008 put the number of people in the city proper at 2,853,114, while suburban populations continue to grow, with estimates at 9,785,747 for the combined city and suburbs"

Chicago proper is still one of the most densly populated cities in the US.

Let go of the hatred, son.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 09:02:12
jergul, look at it this way.

Chicago entered the mid-20th century as an absolutely massive economic powerhouse (2nd largest city in the country, with 2.4% of the entire national population). It predictably spent the next decades getting screwed over by suburbanization and white flight. Unlike Detroit or Buffalo, its economic base was gigantic and diverse enough to not completely implode from deindustrialization, and once suburbanization ended it was able to stage the beginnings of a modest recovery in the '90s.

And since then...? Anemic to negative growth. Why is this?

-We know it's not because of any sort of overall national decline - US population is up 16% since 2000.

-We know it's not because this is an inevitability with older metros; cities like NYC (and Boston!) have had healthy and stable growth rates since the '90s.

-We know it's not because Chicago's economy is in decline - the MSA growing as it has indicates to the contrary.

Bottom line, Chicago has been able to exploit what was already a humongous economy and keep it growing, which is good. At the same time, it's failed to expand or even maintain its tax base in the post-suburbanization era. That's not good. Clearly something is wrong with this picture.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 09:06:45
Actually, perhaps I've given Chicago too much credit on the economic front (from 2017):

"Chicago area loses population for 3rd straight year

----

While the declines weren’t enough to knock the Chicago metropolitan area out of its spot as the third-most-populous metropolitan area, it was the only one in the country’s top 10 that saw a decrease rather than an increase in population, according to the Census Bureau."

http://www...population-20180320-story.html

Not good, jergul.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 09:11:06
Best case scenario: Chicago is good at retaining and growing its economic power, but at the same time it has either priced out or scared off the population growth that should have come with that economic clout.

Worst case scenario, the Chicago area is in overall decline, due to disease at the center.

Either way, not good.

TJ
Member Sun Nov 11 10:15:16
Because of the diminishing growth in Illinois it has lost at least one electoral vote after each of the last four Censuses. It is currently on track to lose two more after the 2020 presidential election.

Illinois, because of Chicago, has voted Democratic in the last seven general elections. It isn't the only Midwest State that is diminishing in growth and losing electoral power. Ohio is another, which is the next highest electorate in the Midwest.

Maybe it's fake news. Maybe the best question is: Where is their flight taking them?

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 12:08:23
Ruggy
The number for the Chicago metropolitan area look fine. I tend to mean that when speaking of "Chicago" in the same way I would think of London to encompass more than the 9 000 people that live in the City of London proper.

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 12:16:26
TJ
Illinois has a post-industrial grown pattern. Or slightly less than what the US would have without imigration (your overall population is still growing naturally thanks only to hispanic birthrates - that is responsible for half of US natural growth despite being only 17% of the population).

From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 12:27:22
Jergul,

The problem with that comparison is that Greater London is an actual administrative unit, with a full-scale municipal government in place. The Chicago MSA is not and does not.

Also, Hot Rod specifically mentioned that he was talking about the city.

TJ
Member Sun Nov 11 12:52:11
Today's Chicago Tribune article.
Editorial: Genesis of the Illinois exodus

http://www...is-chicago-20180426-story.html

For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine.

But in Illinois the census data suggested a stable outlook: Over the past 25 years about 65,000 more people voluntarily left the state each year than arrived. That is, net state-to-state migration was chipping away at Illinois at a steady pace. Yet this state’s total population continued to grow. One major reason: immigration from other countries.

That overall trend stopped several years ago, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures. The net domestic migration shortfall in Illinois grew from 68,204 in 2013 to 93,704 in 2014. That’s a lot more people leaving the state than coming. The negative number grew again in 2015 (106,544) and 2016 (109,941). In 2017 the situation turned even uglier: The number of people moving from Illinois to another state outstripped arrivals by 114,779.

As I have said: It could be fake news :)

"From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere."

Possible that they don't like the winter weather or maybe it is a matter of economics.

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 12:58:10
NYC and Boston both have huge Hispanic populations. Weather isn't the problem.

TJ
Member Sun Nov 11 12:59:19
Economics it is then. :)

Rugian
Member Sun Nov 11 13:05:17
The problem here is not "why is the Chicago area declining," because it's not. The Chicago MSA has a healthy growth rate, whereas other Rust Belt cities that have *truly* imploded, like Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo, have had virtually no MSA growth in decades. Unlike those cities, Chicago had been able to enter the age of de-industrialization with other existing industries in place, so it was better able to reposition itself once the manufacturing jobs went away.

What's at issue here is why City of Chicago can't seem to grow in population in an age where living in cities is fashionable again. The area is growing, but people prefer to remain outside of the city.

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 13:28:50
Ruggy
It could be their websites. I tried opening a zoning map over Chicago. Life is too short.

You are right. It would be interesting to know why the population in Chicago is not growing. Doing that is starting to look like work.

Not that population growth is a goal in itself.

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 14:08:21
http://www...ago-Area-Is-Losing-Population/

jergul
large member Sun Nov 11 14:11:38
http://www...go-segregation-poverty/556649/

TJ
Member Sun Nov 11 15:23:23
I read those links several hours ago. I also viewed the following. It was giving my system some trouble though.

http://www...on/chicagos-wealth-divide.html

Hot Rod
Revved Up Sun Nov 11 20:57:55

TJ - For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine.

Not sure if the magnitude is the same, but California is basically doing the same thing.

Californians are moving to Texas in large numbers and, unfortunately, it is ruining the voter spread. That is probably why Cruz almost lost the election this year I believe.

Dukhat
Member Mon Nov 12 03:34:50
Long-winded bullshit fron Rugiab again. Why shouls raw population the end-all metric?

That's because it isn't dumbass. Why not study being an electrician or something and stop embarassikg yourself.

show deleted posts

Sam Adams Member	Sat Nov 10 01:29:41 http://www...ue/tax_list/amusement_tax.html
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Nov 10 01:45:43 Are they sure 9% is enough? Perhaps they should double or triple that amount. How about a 100% tax. That should do it.
Paramount Member	Sat Nov 10 17:37:42 Sweden had an amusement/entertainment tax in 1919. We abolished it in 1963.
Dukhat Member	Sat Nov 10 21:09:57 The price you pay to live in a big city that has some culture (relative to shitty rural areas). That and the horrible houing prices. But if you live in a cheap metro like Houston, there's almost no culture. It's just bbq and strip malls.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sat Nov 10 23:49:03 And movies and sports events and concerts. There used to be a federal excise tax on movies to help finance WWII. Not sure if it is still in effect or not.
Paramount Member	Sun Nov 11 03:14:50 So what is Chicago collecting money for? Or are they doing this because they want less people to have fun? Maybe people has had way too much fun lately, and now the city feels that people needs to calm down a bit, so the introduce this tax.
Daemon Member	Sun Nov 11 05:10:07 Another fun tax, article from 2011: http://www...bonn-prostitutes-a-783438.html Sex Tax Machine Introduced for Bonn Prostitutes Prostitution is a legal and taxable trade in Germany, but enforcing taxes among sex workers on the street can be problematic. The city of Bonn has come up with a new solution, though. Prostitutes must now pay a nightly tax to automated ticket machines.
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Nov 11 06:51:02 Paramount, Chicago is one of the worst run cities in the country. It has been the victim of machine politics for decades. I'm not sure, but Daly politics may still rule. They are liberal of course.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 07:23:20 "Chicago has the third-largest gross metropolitan product in the United States—about $670.5 billion according to September 2017 estimates.[166] The city has also been rated as having the most balanced economy in the United States, due to its high level of diversification"
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 07:30:43 Yes, I suppose drug dealing, corruption, and murder for hire is a very diverse economic mix.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 07:47:30 1950 3,620,962 6.6% 1960 3,550,404 −1.9% 1970 3,366,957 −5.2% 1980 3,005,072 −10.7% 1990 2,783,726 −7.4% 2000 2,896,016 4.0% 2010 2,695,598 −6.9% Est. 2017 2,716,450 [5]0.8% That looks healthy.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 07:54:10 Meanwhile, the MSA has gone from 5,495,364 to 9,461,105 in that same period. Which indicates that despite having a solid economic base, Chicago proper is suffering either from housing or quality of life issues. Well managed city indeed.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 08:34:30 "Population estimates in 2008 put the number of people in the city proper at 2,853,114, while suburban populations continue to grow, with estimates at 9,785,747 for the combined city and suburbs" Chicago proper is still one of the most densly populated cities in the US. Let go of the hatred, son.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 09:02:12 jergul, look at it this way. Chicago entered the mid-20th century as an absolutely massive economic powerhouse (2nd largest city in the country, with 2.4% of the entire national population). It predictably spent the next decades getting screwed over by suburbanization and white flight. Unlike Detroit or Buffalo, its economic base was gigantic and diverse enough to not completely implode from deindustrialization, and once suburbanization ended it was able to stage the beginnings of a modest recovery in the '90s. And since then...? Anemic to negative growth. Why is this? -We know it's not because of any sort of overall national decline - US population is up 16% since 2000. -We know it's not because this is an inevitability with older metros; cities like NYC (and Boston!) have had healthy and stable growth rates since the '90s. -We know it's not because Chicago's economy is in decline - the MSA growing as it has indicates to the contrary. Bottom line, Chicago has been able to exploit what was already a humongous economy and keep it growing, which is good. At the same time, it's failed to expand or even maintain its tax base in the post-suburbanization era. That's not good. Clearly something is wrong with this picture.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 09:06:45 Actually, perhaps I've given Chicago too much credit on the economic front (from 2017): "Chicago area loses population for 3rd straight year ---- While the declines weren’t enough to knock the Chicago metropolitan area out of its spot as the third-most-populous metropolitan area, it was the only one in the country’s top 10 that saw a decrease rather than an increase in population, according to the Census Bureau." http://www...population-20180320-story.html Not good, jergul.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 09:11:06 Best case scenario: Chicago is good at retaining and growing its economic power, but at the same time it has either priced out or scared off the population growth that should have come with that economic clout. Worst case scenario, the Chicago area is in overall decline, due to disease at the center. Either way, not good.
TJ Member	Sun Nov 11 10:15:16 Because of the diminishing growth in Illinois it has lost at least one electoral vote after each of the last four Censuses. It is currently on track to lose two more after the 2020 presidential election. Illinois, because of Chicago, has voted Democratic in the last seven general elections. It isn't the only Midwest State that is diminishing in growth and losing electoral power. Ohio is another, which is the next highest electorate in the Midwest. Maybe it's fake news. Maybe the best question is: Where is their flight taking them?
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 12:08:23 Ruggy The number for the Chicago metropolitan area look fine. I tend to mean that when speaking of "Chicago" in the same way I would think of London to encompass more than the 9 000 people that live in the City of London proper.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 12:16:26 TJ Illinois has a post-industrial grown pattern. Or slightly less than what the US would have without imigration (your overall population is still growing naturally thanks only to hispanic birthrates - that is responsible for half of US natural growth despite being only 17% of the population). From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 12:27:22 Jergul, The problem with that comparison is that Greater London is an actual administrative unit, with a full-scale municipal government in place. The Chicago MSA is not and does not. Also, Hot Rod specifically mentioned that he was talking about the city.
TJ Member	Sun Nov 11 12:52:11 Today's Chicago Tribune article. Editorial: Genesis of the Illinois exodus http://www...is-chicago-20180426-story.html For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine. But in Illinois the census data suggested a stable outlook: Over the past 25 years about 65,000 more people voluntarily left the state each year than arrived. That is, net state-to-state migration was chipping away at Illinois at a steady pace. Yet this state’s total population continued to grow. One major reason: immigration from other countries. That overall trend stopped several years ago, according to U.S. Census Bureau figures. The net domestic migration shortfall in Illinois grew from 68,204 in 2013 to 93,704 in 2014. That’s a lot more people leaving the state than coming. The negative number grew again in 2015 (106,544) and 2016 (109,941). In 2017 the situation turned even uglier: The number of people moving from Illinois to another state outstripped arrivals by 114,779. As I have said: It could be fake news :) "From this it would follow that hispanics in Illinois are contributing less to natural growth than elsewhere." Possible that they don't like the winter weather or maybe it is a matter of economics.
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 12:58:10 NYC and Boston both have huge Hispanic populations. Weather isn't the problem.
TJ Member	Sun Nov 11 12:59:19 Economics it is then. :)
Rugian Member	Sun Nov 11 13:05:17 The problem here is not "why is the Chicago area declining," because it's not. The Chicago MSA has a healthy growth rate, whereas other Rust Belt cities that have truly imploded, like Detroit, Cleveland, or Buffalo, have had virtually no MSA growth in decades. Unlike those cities, Chicago had been able to enter the age of de-industrialization with other existing industries in place, so it was better able to reposition itself once the manufacturing jobs went away. What's at issue here is why City of Chicago can't seem to grow in population in an age where living in cities is fashionable again. The area is growing, but people prefer to remain outside of the city.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 13:28:50 Ruggy It could be their websites. I tried opening a zoning map over Chicago. Life is too short. You are right. It would be interesting to know why the population in Chicago is not growing. Doing that is starting to look like work. Not that population growth is a goal in itself.
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 14:08:21 http://www...ago-Area-Is-Losing-Population/
jergul large member	Sun Nov 11 14:11:38 http://www...go-segregation-poverty/556649/
TJ Member	Sun Nov 11 15:23:23 I read those links several hours ago. I also viewed the following. It was giving my system some trouble though. http://www...on/chicagos-wealth-divide.html
Hot Rod Revved Up	Sun Nov 11 20:57:55 TJ - For decades more Americans have been moving south and west in search of economic opportunity, less taxation, lower housing costs and sunshine. Not sure if the magnitude is the same, but California is basically doing the same thing. Californians are moving to Texas in large numbers and, unfortunately, it is ruining the voter spread. That is probably why Cruz almost lost the election this year I believe.
Dukhat Member	Mon Nov 12 03:34:50 Long-winded bullshit fron Rugiab again. Why shouls raw population the end-all metric? That's because it isn't dumbass. Why not study being an electrician or something and stop embarassikg yourself.
	show deleted posts

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