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Utopia Talk / Politics / Big news on the battery front
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 19 23:55:50
NANJING, Nov. 20 (Xinhua) -- China's first solid-state battery production line has become operational in the city of Kunshan, east China's Jiangsu Province.

The solid-state battery technology is a next-generation, high-capacity energy storage solution eyed by global high-tech firms to improve on today's lithium-ion batteries, replacing the liquid or gel-form electrolyte with a solid and conductive material.

Chinese start-up Qing Tao (Kunshan) Energy Development Co. Ltd, led by Nan Cewen, a member of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, has invested 1 billion yuan (144 million U.S. dollars) on the solid-state battery project.

The production line is capable of producing 0.1 GWh solid-state batteries per year, which have an energy density of over 400 Wh/kg.

Nan announced the line's operation on Monday, saying the batteries would first be utilized on special equipment and high-end digital products.

He said the company has engaged with a number of large automobile manufacturers to produce batteries for electric vehicles by 2020, when the company's annual production capacity is expected to reach 0.7 GWh.

Nan founded the company with several Ph.D graduates from Tsinghua University in 2014 with an insight on the market prospect for solid-state battery technology.

  He said world renowned companies like Volkswagen, Toyota and Dyson were marching towards using solid-state batteries for automotive applications.

 "Getting rid of liquid electrolytes can ensure the battery is not flammable or combustible and can even be produced in flexible packs," Nan said.

xinhuan
==============
The big deal is not the capacity (400 is more than tesla's 250), but solid state means non-explosive and of course, the production line is actually open (though small scale by chinese standards).
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 20 00:48:08
is it made out of endangered animals?
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 20 01:42:36
Hopefully it’s made from the noses of white tigers, and they don’t use any other part of the animal but the nose after killing it.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 02:01:42
Whataboutism. Kewl.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 20 11:49:58
what whataboutism?

if China came up with it there must be something horrible happening
TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 12:45:15
Solid-state batteries are still unproven technology.

On the other hand - materials such as glass, ceramics, or polymers certainly have advantages over flammable and explosive liquid electrolytes.

I suppose we'll see if the result is as purported to be without mention of any disadvantages in design such as lifespan, recharge time, and replacement cost.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Nov 20 12:46:00
400 wh per kg is ok... what is the price?
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Nov 20 12:48:01
Also what is expected degradation per charge cycle.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Tue Nov 20 13:09:56
And what does it take to manufacture them in terms of environmental impact compared to standard Li-ion batteries.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 20 13:10:00
“what whataboutism?”

Some of Jergul’s kewl kid cynicism — just ignore. Chinese production methods were definitely a topic in a thread about Chinese production of SS batteries, and the Chinese tend to bulldoze animals and the environment for the bottom line, so no whataboutism is afoot. With that said, I can’t wait for the Japanese to develop this tech so that it won’t have Chinese spyware embedded into the tiger noses.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Tue Nov 20 13:21:10
"and the Chinese tend to bulldoze animals and the environment for the bottom line"

capitalism rocks!
Forwyn
Member
Tue Nov 20 13:23:54
People were mobilized to eradicate the birds. They used beating drums to scare the birds from landing, forcing them to fly until they died of exhaustion. People tore down sparrow nests and shot sparrows down from the sky. The result of the campaign was to push the birds close to extinction in China.

http://www...vironmental-disasters-history/
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 15:10:26
TW
That whataboutism.

CC
What have I told you about engaging in threads? You lack the mental fortitude to deal with the fall-out.

TJ
I was suggesting that the technology is no longer experimental. Hence my weighting an actual production line as important.

We live in a globalized world. It will take about 3 minutes for South Korea to duplicate and another 5 for Chinese interests to source components from Vietnam.

Forwyn
Whataboutism.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 15:14:06
Sammy
I don't know the unit price, but given it is going to sensitive equipment that would pay a premium, I think too high for general use until production capacity expands and drives down unit prices.

That is just my jergulmath opinion however.
hood
Member
Tue Nov 20 15:26:31
Jergul is amusingly stupid.
TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 15:30:36
Solid-State battery technology has been in a constant experimental stage for sometime and I suspect continued development. It'll be interesting to see what actually develops from the Chinese plant investment. Bravo if they have developed an outstanding product above what has been possible for some time now.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 15:37:59
TJ
A production line has not been possible before now.

Hood
Thanks for your opinion, bro. You emotions mean a lot to me.
TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 15:44:16
"TJ
A production line has not been possible before now."

Being the first doesn't mean that it hasn't been possible. Profitability and performance being paramount.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 20 15:54:11
perhaps the endangered animals are incorporated into the production line

at the very least they could use the tigers to 'motivate' the workers... before cutting off the noses
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:05:33
TJ
I can think of more reasons than those two for why production lines have not been possible before. Scalability would rank high on that list.

TW
That kind of senimentality is tiresome. Waah. Pity the tigers. Shall we whataboutist pity the pig?

China breeds maybe 6000 tigers for slaughter and while I will not say it uses more of the animal, each part is individually sold as "tooth" or "penis" and not sold as generic "pork"

Lets instead feel sorry for the pig in its countless billions killed every year!

TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 16:12:18
jergul:

Sure, I can think of several too. I simply listed the top two in overcoming what remained.
CHINA RULZ USA SUCKS
Member
Tue Nov 20 16:13:09
JPN OWNED ONDE OND OWEND ODNW

http://www...tteries-are-still-10-years-off

Nov 15, 2018

Panasonic says solid-state batteries are still 10 years off
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:20:09
TJ
I am not really sure I would list "profit" as one of the limitationd. Niche use (say for example in satellites or in military hardware) would suggest high elastisity.

But frankly, what country where you thinking might open the first production line?

jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:22:32
I checked. The random non-Chinese Asian country with particular battery competence turned out to be Signapore. There is always some random non-chinese Asian country with some specialist competence.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:24:37
China
10 years sounds about right before solid state becomes industrial standard.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 20 16:26:16
they are killing off plenty of species that they aren't breeding, plus breeding isn't necessarily helping anything, could be harming:


But “China’s farming of wild animals such as tigers, bears, and, more recently, rhinos, has not provided any conservation benefit to these species,” said Allan Thornton, president of the nonprofit Environmental Investigative Agency (EIA). Wild products are regarded as superior to farm-raised, and the legal market simply makes it easier to launder poached animal products.

"China is the largest market for illegal wildlife products – and the market continues to grow. “Wildlife species that are bred in captivity for commercial purposes make some products widely available, which drives up consumer demand and increases poaching in the wild,” said Sharon Guynup, an environmental journalist and Wilson Center public policy fellow."

http://www...ts-role-illicit-wildlife-trade
hood
Member
Tue Nov 20 16:30:29
"Hood
Thanks for your opinion, bro. You emotions mean a lot to me."

Hey, if you want to be a slave to my amusement, I won't object.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:33:31
So you mean "Waah the Halocene"? Yah, we are in the midst of mass extinction event. The main cause of course is deforestation to make room for production related to meat consumption.

Want to save the planet? Eat a lot less meat.

One conservation benefit I can think of stemming from farming is a genetic bank. If at some point restocking wildlife becomes an idea.

You are in other words screwing up in the orders of magnitude.

But I will happily agree that China should intensify its custom inspection regime to cut back on illegal products.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:34:34
Hood
I am here for you, bro. Whatever you need to get up every morning.
TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 16:46:22
jergul:

An experiment may produce good results, but that doesn't mean it can be transformed into a commercially-viable technology.

Isn't commercially-viable technology the premium goal? When it comes to niches the profitability rests in different valued advantages.



hood
Member
Tue Nov 20 16:59:36
You're really, really bad at the sardonic retorts, brah.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 16:59:54
TJ
Hence my thinking an actual production line is hugely significant. Solid state is not longer experimental. It is now in production for the commercial market.

It will take a while for solid state to become industrial standard. I don't see the timeline Panasonic suggested changing, but rather if that time line were to hold, then it was timely that a production line opened about now.

Expect more and more of this. China is burying us in terms of raw engineering production. Those engineers will do stuff.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 17:00:48
Hood
Thank you for sharing!
TJ
Member
Tue Nov 20 17:09:58
Carbon fiber body electric cars might be a step up in the future. You;ll be able to ride inside an electrical storage unit some day. :)
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Nov 20 17:42:31
At 1.3 mj per kg, and even accounting for the superior efficiency of electical to mechanical conversion vs thermal to mechanical... this battery is still 10 times as heavy as the equivalent fossil fuel engine.

Sad.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Nov 20 17:42:55
For a given range.
Pillz
Member
Tue Nov 20 17:45:27
What happened to make jergul go off he edge and go full retard like this?
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 20 18:36:57
[Jergul]: "What have I told you about engaging in threads? You lack the mental fortitude to deal with the fall-out."

True :( ... I wish I could withstand your kewl kid cynicism and your trolling might, but most of your words have too many syllables for me to grasp... I am but a charred asteroid circling the brilliance of your supernova intellect :'(

But to the tigers: Only 6000? China needs to pump up those numbers — those are rookie numbers! If we're going to break the 10-year barrier on SS-batteries, we're going to need at least 10 times more white tiger nose. Might even have to branch out and harvest some snow leopard knees so our new cell phones can bend. Get to work, suicidal slaves! :D
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 18:59:41
CC
I was speaking of your emotional fragility. Carefully not to cut yourself too deep, mkay.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 19:00:47
Pillz
Lay off the kewl aid, bro.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 19:04:17
Sammy
You would want to compare energy densities. Not energy densities to engine weight (though I would rather wager an electric engine does weigh about 10% of a combustion engine per kw effect. If we wanted to compare that).
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 20 19:05:34
That last one to CC was prolly a bit mean. I did not intend to cut too close to actual real life issues of the past.

Sorry about that.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Nov 20 19:37:49
[jergul]: "Carefully not to cut yourself too deep, mkay."

I can't believe you would say something like that to me. You know very well that 2000's "Secret Cutting" is like, my favorite movie, and that I'm listening to a lot of NIИ right now.. and the fact that you would just go and *weaponize* that... oh my gods... I literally can't even right now. White tiger noses and snow leopard knees might be getting harvested by the Chinese for battery parts right now, but instead of being outraged at that I'm having teenage flashbacks of the Tamagotchi that I put on sleep mode for a year and when I woke it the battery was still alive and its stats were maxed out and it was 99 years old and healthy because sleep mode apparently bypasses all care-giving imperatives. But I won't let you win! I'm in charge of my own pain, jergul! I'll learn to cry so that I don't have to cut! ;D

Sea otter cheeks would also be a good one, since those make them cute.
hood
Member
Wed Nov 21 00:26:12
"That last one to CC was prolly a bit mean."

So not only does jergul blow goats, bulls, and effeminate chinese men at insulting, he's also a fucking pussy who backtracks on his insults?

I'm starting to think all of this macho tree logging and fisherman bravado was a facade.
Pillz
Member
Wed Nov 21 01:01:41
Tag probably rotated between several Russian social media consultants over the years.

jergul
large member
Wed Nov 21 01:06:44
CC
How could you not have been a cutter in your hormon filled teenage years? Just look at you.

Hood
Why thank you for thinking that was a backtrack. You humanity is touching.

What logging?

Pillz
You are just soo kewl. And detached. And cycincal. And young (in mind if not body).

You a cutter too?
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 21 13:54:55
Returning to batteries:

The more research I do on batteries, I'm convinced that they are a product in flux indefinitely, with mega coin investments at continual risk. The research has only strengthened my original perception.

Triboelectric nanogenerators I found to be particularly interesting.

I think we will experience different methods to continue having specific application advantages.

Surging technology will only decrease the already shortness in time of the progress I've experienced over a lifetime. We are nearing where the spectacular will be taking a backseat to phenomenal.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 21 14:18:40
TJ
I am always a bit underwhelmed. Its not like the technological advances are going to compete with the energy density of a log any time soon.

Generators are always fun, but everything pales against the backdrop of hydro-electric generation. If you wanted to speak of phenomenal :-).

Its sort of the same problem we run into with gasoline. Such a superb way to store transportable energy. Most everything else is pretty meh by comparison.

In many ways, we are just tweaking on the shoulders of giants and vest "new" perhaps a too highly.

jergul
large member
Wed Nov 21 14:19:32
a bit too highly*
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 21 14:20:43
Perhaps...
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 21 15:32:47
In addition to perhaps:

I was specific about method application advantages. :;)

My captured interest was more about small use storage-charging/discharging, heating/cooling capabilities against cost, and applicability, not massive generation of power.

What I found interesting was capturing small naturally created,dispensed, and wasted energy. The applications are worth speculation. One example being medical implants.

Phenomenal, of course, is subjective experience and time spans conflict.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 21 17:25:52
TJ
Yah, bio-electric integration is interesting.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Nov 22 12:37:35
>>technological advances are going to compete with the energy density of a log any time soon.<<

It doesn't have to compete with the energy density if you factor in loss to heat instead of actual work. There is still however the issue that batteries are not renewable! They turn to shit after a couple thousand charge cycles and those minerals, they have to be dug up somewhere, like somewhere in Africa usually, by children preferably.
jergul
large member
Thu Nov 22 13:04:47
Nimi
"I am always a bit underwhelmed. Its not like the technological advances are going to compete with the energy density of a log any time soon"

Perhaps you are more easily awed. Good for you.
Seb
Member
Thu Nov 22 17:38:12
Nim:

Even accounting for conversion inefficiencies - looking at "work density" - say - batteries are still a long way away from fossil fuels.

Which is not a problem for some applications but is for others.
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 00:35:15
Large battery packs do have a place in a rational world. For example to limit over investment in electrical grids (say low price contracts that charge cars not on demand, but when grid capacity permits. Ideally with reverse charging. Cars sell back electricity to the grid when needed and the owner pockets the price differential).

I also like the idea as supplemental power. Electric bikes or wind powered vessels. Batteries and electric engines adding additional umph when needed.

But cars is putting lipstick on a pig. Mass car ownership is simply not sustainable (peak car would trend towards 10 billion vehicles owned by households over the next 50 years).

jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 00:40:11
Point being: Large battery packs come into their own if storage is either meant as a supplement (to avoid over investment to cover peak usage) or is a supplemental power source (for example to mainly muscle powered bicycles).
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Nov 23 05:00:23
>>Which is not a problem for some applications but is for others.<<

The word on the street is that by 2050 we will have battery powered medium distance medium capacity flight. Skeptical hippo is skeptical.

There is a calculation out there, that a battery needs 1/5th (based on the power train of a car) of the energy density of gasoline to reach parity in terms of range. It isn’t applicable everywhere, but there was no defined scope for application in the thread. Point was that we don’t need parity in energy density to reach parity in work, which is often what we are after anyways.
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 05:06:31
Nimi
My point was that batteries as an energy storage source are underwhelming and will remain underwhelming for the foreseeable future. I illustrated that by comparing batteries disfavourably with a piece of wood.

Try not to be too autistic, mkay?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Nov 23 06:59:42
I neither care about what impresses you nor did I respond to you the second post. Your feelings about batteries were, ignored.
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 08:04:54
Nimi
I don't care that you don't care.

You latched on to something I said and I have dismissed your concerns by repeating twice that you were being autistic.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Nov 23 08:45:53
Latched on? lol. I commented that energy density isn’t the only thing one would care about in a battery. I moved on (from you), but apparently this fact was too much for your fragile go to take. I latched on? ROFL!

Don’t worry jergul, you are quite smert for an arctic goat herder.
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 09:26:28
You seem upset. Perhaps you should rest a bit in a darkened room.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Nov 23 09:36:56
One comment, is ”latching on like an autist”.

God dam it Lulzgul you are fragile little man.
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 09:41:19
You seem extremely out of balance. Wow. Its like I broke you.
TJ
Member
Fri Nov 23 11:29:18
China-China-chuckle

Nio inaugurates battery swap expressway in China

http://www...sway-in-china.html#prettyPhoto
jergul
large member
Fri Nov 23 11:52:05
Swapping is incredibly sensible. Nice find TJ.
The Children
Member
Fri Nov 23 23:16:18
another glorious day for the motherland.

this is great news indeed as it proves just how far ahead china really is.

a great day indeed
Cherub Cow
Member
Sat Nov 24 06:31:40
[Jergul]: “I don't care that you don't care”

Wow, maximum kewl kid cynicism right there. Probably written while listening to Adam’s Song on repeat.

Anyways, they can improve energy density if they harvest more blue whale tail flukes.
jergul
large member
Sat Nov 24 07:22:45
CC
For kewl kid cynicism, look into the mirror and reflect on how you deal with reality.

Mind keeping your lower arms covered. Thanksgiving season must be rought enough for you emotionally without being reminded of your teenage years.

That they even let young women buy patented razor blades and select art supplies is beyond me.


jergul
large member
Sat Nov 24 18:35:00
MOSCOW, November 24. /TASS/. Rare Atlantic walruses have been spotted in the White Sea again after several hundreds of years of not appearing in the area after unlimited exploitation, research fellow at the Shirshov Institute of Oceanology Alexander Agafonov told TASS on the eve of the Walrus Day.

Read also
Russia’s top prosecutor shuts down 1,000 websites that trade in endangered animals

"Atlantic walruses are still considered endangered species. Their population decreased initially because of intensive exploitation. For instance, they have not appeared in the White Sea since the 18th century. However, our records indicate that walruses returned to the White Sea, which most likely signals a positive dynamic," Agafonov said.

It is currently prohibited to hunt Atlantic walruses. When it comes to Pacific walruses whose population is currently estimated at 200,000 animals, only indigenous peoples are allowed to hunt them in limited quantities, Agafonov noted.

Ocean pollution does not directly affect populations of walruses but can lead to decrease in fish supplies for the rare animals, especially in case of technogenic disasters like large-scale oil spills, the expert said.

Senior research fellow at the Shirshov Institute of Oceanology Vasily Spiridonov noted that there is no worrisome information yet about populations of Atlantic walruses but it is important to watch them closely as no concrete data on their numbers is available. There is another problem that concerns mostly Pacific walruses - global warming forces them to migrate north as ice pads in the Bering Sea gradually melt. Thus, competition for ice pads in the north of the Pacific Ocean grows rather quickly, the expert explained.


More:
http://tass.com/science/1032349

============

Pretty disgusting animals. I was within a hundred yards of a few score of them before 9/11. Wallowing in the sun and their own poop. Big. I can see why ivory was hard to come by until the invention of gunpowder and steel. They could give two shits about humans nearby. And they had shit to spare.

See, now is a chance for some kewl kid detached cynicism and some flippant comment on how flippers can be used for China to cool down motherboards or something. The white sea a mere train ticket away from Shanghai.

I wait with baited breath.

Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Nov 26 17:27:31
Sometimes, when I forget how stupidly affected by the Dunning–Kruger effect that Seb and Jergul can be, I check one of these threads, and here they are.. still lashing out at anyone who will give them two minutes of dialogue. You'd think that after so many people calling them idiots that they'd stop thinking that everyone *else* is an idiot and maybe think, "Maybe *I'm* the idiot?" ... but it won't happen. So this was a good refresher on why I more often than not avoid reading their perpetual bile.
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 26 17:54:08
CC
What a cutting comeback. You seem very practiced at ahem cutting.

You should avoid engaging. I have no use for you. As I have tried to make adamantly clear.
Pillz
Member
Mon Nov 26 17:55:27
I followed the first half of this thread and while I realize that ecological costs of enegery was discussed, jergul's post reads as spam
jergul
large member
Mon Nov 26 18:01:10
Humanist Pillz
Perhaps a thought you should keep in mind when you engage with HR.
Rugian
Member
Mon Nov 26 18:08:47
jergul
large member Tue Nov 20 15:10:26
TW
That whataboutism.

CC
What have I told you about engaging in threads? You lack the mental fortitude to deal with the fall-out.

Forwyn
Whataboutism."

Jesus. And I thought my posts come off as cranky.
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