Utopia Talk / Politics / #MeToo is changing women's lives

Rugian Member	Tue Dec 04 17:51:07 Wall Street Rule for the #MeToo Era: Avoid Women at All Cost By Gillian Tan and Katia Porzecanski December 3, 2018, 5:00 AM EST Updated on December 3, 2018, 9:59 AM EST No more dinners with female colleagues. Don’t sit next to them on flights. Book hotel rooms on different floors. Avoid one-on-one meetings. In fact, as a wealth adviser put it, just hiring a woman these days is “an unknown risk.” What if she took something he said the wrong way? Across Wall Street, men are adopting controversial strategies for the #MeToo era and, in the process, making life even harder for women. Call it the Pence Effect, after U.S. Vice President Mike Pence, who has said he avoids dining alone with any woman other than his wife. In finance, the overarching impact can be, in essence, gender segregation. Interviews with more than 30 senior executives suggest many are spooked by #MeToo and struggling to cope. “It’s creating a sense of walking on eggshells,” said David Bahnsen, a former managing director at Morgan Stanley who’s now an independent adviser overseeing more than $1.5 billion. This is hardly a single-industry phenomenon, as men across the country check their behavior at work, to protect themselves in the face of what they consider unreasonable political correctness -- or to simply do the right thing. The upshot is forceful on Wall Street, where women are scarce in the upper ranks. The industry has also long nurtured a culture that keeps harassment complaints out of the courts and public eye, and has so far avoided a mega-scandal like the one that has engulfed Harvey Weinstein. ‘Real Loss’ Now, more than a year into the #MeToo movement -- with its devastating revelations of harassment and abuse in Hollywood, Silicon Valley and beyond -- Wall Street risks becoming more of a boy’s club, rather than less of one. “Women are grasping for ideas on how to deal with it, because it is affecting our careers,” said Karen Elinski, president of the Financial Women’s Association and a senior vice president at Wells Fargo & Co. “It’s a real loss.” There’s a danger, too, for companies that fail to squash the isolating backlash and don’t take steps to have top managers be open about the issue and make it safe for everyone to discuss it, said Stephen Zweig, an employment attorney with FordHarrison. “If men avoid working or traveling with women alone, or stop mentoring women for fear of being accused of sexual harassment,” he said, “those men are going to back out of a sexual harassment complaint and right into a sex discrimination complaint.” Channeling Pence While the new personal codes for dealing with #MeToo have only just begun to ripple, the shift is already palpable, according to the people interviewed, who declined to be named. They work for hedge funds, law firms, banks, private equity firms and investment-management firms. For obvious reasons, few will talk openly about the issue. Privately, though, many of the men interviewed acknowledged they’re channeling Pence, saying how uneasy they are about being alone with female colleagues, particularly youthful or attractive ones, fearful of the rumor mill or of, as one put it, the potential liability. A manager in infrastructure investing said he won’t meet with female employees in rooms without windows anymore; he also keeps his distance in elevators. A late-40-something in private equity said he has a new rule, established on the advice of his wife, an attorney: no business dinner with a woman 35 or younger. The changes can be subtle but insidious, with a woman, say, excluded from casual after-work drinks, leaving male colleagues to bond, or having what should be a private meeting with a boss with the door left wide open. ‘Not That Hard’ On Wall Street as elsewhere, reactions to #MeToo can smack of paranoia, particularly given the industry’s history of protecting its biggest revenue generators. “Some men have voiced concerns to me that a false accusation is what they fear,” said Zweig, the lawyer. “These men fear what they cannot control.” There are as many or more men who are responding in quite different ways. One, an investment adviser who manages about 100 employees, said he briefly reconsidered having one-on-one meetings with junior women. He thought about leaving his office door open, or inviting a third person into the room. Finally, he landed on the solution: “Just try not to be an asshole.” That’s pretty much the bottom line, said Ron Biscardi, chief executive officer of Context Capital Partners. “It’s really not that hard.” In January, as #MeToo was gathering momentum, Biscardi did away with the late-night, open-bar gathering he’d hosted for years in his penthouse suite during Context Capital’s annual conference at the Fontainebleau Miami Beach. “Given the fact that women are in the minority at our events, we want to make sure that the environment is always welcoming and comfortable. We felt that eliminating the after-party was necessary to remain consistent with that goal.” In this charged environment, the question is how the response to #MeToo might actually end up hurting women’s progress. Given the male dominance in Wall Street’s top jobs, one of the most pressing consequences for women is the loss of male mentors who can help them climb the ladder. “There aren’t enough women in senior positions to bring along the next generation all by themselves,” said Lisa Kaufman, chief executive officer of LaSalle Securities. “Advancement typically requires that someone at a senior level knows your work, gives you opportunities and is willing to champion you within the firm. It’s hard for a relationship like that to develop if the senior person is unwilling to spend one-on-one time with a more junior person.” Men have to step up, she said, and “not let fear be a barrier.” http://www...oo-era-avoid-women-at-all-cost
tumbleweed the wanderer	Tue Dec 04 18:05:52 could be a boon for ugly women, about time they got their turn
Cherub Cow Member	Tue Dec 04 22:24:58 Must be time for more slave morality responses about how it's "tough luck" that men "finally" had their comeuppance in the social arena and that they should just deal with it.. even though that logic fails to see that — as the article points out — men *have* been dealing with it, and the new borders aren't good for anyone.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Wed Dec 05 00:01:29 possible solutions: 1) burqas 2) everyone wears body cams 24/7 ...that's the only options i can think of
Paramount Member	Wed Dec 05 01:30:31 I don’t mind if you all avoid women. Only the bravest of men will dine with women and sit next to them on parties, and that means more women for me because I’m not afraid. Seriously, If you know how to behave it should be no problem for you to socialize with women.
pillz Member	Wed Dec 05 01:32:32 Both options 1 and 2 are necessary. But since our phones record everything anyways, why not let Google and Apple take over sexual assault cases entirely?
jergul large member	Wed Dec 05 02:02:17 “Just try not to be an asshole.” This. Also, don't be a pussy. The chances of facing me too related condemnation are minute if the quote is followed. The OP is simply backlash. To be expected and certainly harmful. But it is what it is. Because men in power are generally vindictive shrews.
Cherub Cow Member	Wed Dec 05 06:55:55 “If you know how to behave it should be no problem for you to socialize with women” and “Just try not to be an asshole” have that same slave morality logic: it identifies one party (men) as problematic and expects them to “deal with it.” The problem, of course, is that men aren’t leaving office doors open in otherwise private meetings because they don’t know how not to be assholes, they’re doing it because they don’t want some Aspergers coper (e.g., Ansari’s revenge porn person) to perceive them as such and otherwise make false accusations. If accountability is placed only on or mostly on one party, then that one party has to protect itself, which, again, causes the article problems. “If you’ve done nothing wrong, then you have nothing to fear” is simplistic and not helpful. It has to be a shared accountability.
jergul large member	Wed Dec 05 10:54:31 "Also, don't be a pussy. The chances of facing me too related condemnation are minute if the quote is followed." The ratio of men in power to those outed in metoo events, stupid.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 05 12:44:58 Being a slave, or as I like to call it, belonging to a religion brings the benefit of not thinking for yourself on emotionally and cognitively taxing issues. It is THE heuristically approach to life, death and a purposeful living. The best we can hope for is that these new religions will, be diminished to something like the Anglican or Swedish church. You don't want them to turn into cancer, but say Herpes, you can live with Herpes!
hood Member	Wed Dec 05 12:49:43 "You don't want them to turn into cancer, but say Herpes, you can live with Herpes!" The #metoo movement nobody wanted to see.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 05 13:12:22 Fucking awesome - You totally nailed it. :)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 05 13:18:00 Man, my balls been itching every since I fucked with Sheniqua. Metoo man, me too. #1205Internationalherpesday *picture of ball itching black guy.*
hood Member	Wed Dec 05 14:26:32 "I've been diagnosed with testicular cancer." "#metoo" Jared liked this.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Dec 05 14:30:59 Mmm, yea I frowned when I read that. Bad feelings. Nailed it >:(
hood Member	Wed Dec 05 14:33:19 Payback for the image of scratching balls.
obaminated Member	Wed Dec 05 14:58:03 " because I’m not afraid. " sir friendzone speaks.
Cthulhu Tentacle Rapist	Wed Dec 05 15:32:44 The problem here is universal suffrage obviously.
Pillz Member	Wed Dec 05 16:47:10 Only sharia can save men from the false accusations of whores
Rugian Member	Wed Dec 05 16:55:57 This entire time, the Muslims knew what they were doing.
hood Member	Wed Dec 05 17:25:26 ^ fucking blasphemers.
obaminated Member	Wed Dec 05 18:15:32 Don't let yourself git got cuz bitches be headhunting for easy niggahs in middle management.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Dec 06 05:26:04 I heard this comedian and will paraphrase. The timing on this whole we want equality, was perfect. 5000 years of hunting tigers and taming a dangerous world, not a fucking word, women were like: yea we will just stay at the village and maybe pick some berries, you guys are strong and awesome we are impressed! As soon as there was air conditioned offices. HEY WE WANT EQUALITY AND MONEY AND POWER! DOWN WITH THE PATRIARCHY! #metoo! Ungrateful cunts.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Dec 06 05:42:02 Rugian Well, the forced modesty laws of Islam and traitional gender segregation actually solved the problems that metoo exposed as ”unresolved” in the West. Something like the Burka and Hijab are not great solutions since when forced they cause many other problems, but they very effectively reduce sexual signaling to almost zero and it should be added, the modesty laws apply to men as well, just not as severe. What is funny is that gender segregation is now being proposed by the some feminists, such as segregated times at the swimming pools (we have this in Sweden) and man free music festivals. Even this article is describing a regression.
Paramount Member	Thu Dec 06 12:36:07 When I was in school, and this was before metoo, my class were often gender segregated. Particularly when we had sports. But also other times there was this ”the girls vs the boys” thing. Toilets and showers are still gender segregated in school and at workplaces etc. But at home, the wife and the husband, the sister and the brother can all share the same toilet and shower. But in the schools, boys are not allowed to be in the same toilet/shower as the girls are in.
obaminated Member	Thu Dec 06 12:40:45 Rofl. Parafag wants to play competitive sports with women.
obaminated Member	Thu Dec 06 12:40:45 Rofl. Parafag wants to play competitive sports with women.
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 13:04:48 You realise that before this, all women had to think about one on one situations with men right, lest it be misconstrued as displaying openness to a workplace fling? This isn't new. The difference is as a man it lets me know the grade A assholes amoung my fellow men.
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 13:09:57 "I will only meet with women if it's highly unlikely that a man* meeting a woman alone and assaulting her would face consequences." "*Of course, I would never do that. I'm a nice guy. It's just, I need to think of my own safety. Even if systemically my that puts women at risk."
so what Member	Thu Dec 06 13:11:36 nimatzo, yep, that is indeed interesting. Or blacks and other non-whites who demand segregation/safe spaces based on race in regards to holiday resorts, bars, and such. Not too long ago, non-whites fought for the right to be integrated into white society and now they are fighting for the right to be segregated. It is as if smart racists played the long game. They made doing racist things as identity politics, seem as if it's combatting racism. And made non-whites want it. And you can say the most racist things, if you are recognised as an anti-racist...
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 13:12:34 Can you imagine what would happen if women openly refused to meet men 1-2-1 for business purposes and business socials explicitly saying they feared being raped. The condemnation would be enormous.
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 13:14:21 So what: Um. Isn't this a case of men in finance insisting on segregation to protect themselves from the oh-so-very-real threat of falsely accused of sexual assault?
jergul large member	Thu Dec 06 13:20:34 Seb Its a bit "closing the stable door after the horse has bolted". Most metoo stuff is for past misdeeds. Its borderline shaming/blaming the victim and is certainly a vindictive shrew move. "Now look what you made us do" tripe.
so what Member	Thu Dec 06 13:20:42 Well, I don't have to imagine what would happen if women would openly refuse to meet men or just shake hands, saying it is due to religious reasons. Giving religeous reasons to condone misogyny, homophobia and other such things seems to be acceptable to religeous people and SJW, as long as the religion is not Christianity.
so what Member	Thu Dec 06 13:28:40 It is not unthinkable that if this continues, that women will reject/be denied promotion and such or be relegated to women only departments… in the name of feminism...
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 13:33:03 I seem to recall jergul, that nobody had an issue with, for example, investigating all of Jimmy Savilles acts of paedophilia even though there was equally little evidence - and in that case the perpetrator was dead! There's a culture of impunity, and a Whole set of structural norms that support it. Look at the cases where organisations have been complicit in covering up crimes by their execs, explaining to the victim that their career here is over, and will be everywhere if you drag our reputation through the mud (but here's a payoff try your luck elsewhere), pay off to the exec, and the whole thing repeats at the next workplace the exec goes to. I really don't think the horse has bolted. When men commit abuse as kids, we are asked "why ruin this bright future over a simple mistake". When they do it at the height of their career, it's "but he had such talent, why should it be lost over an act of madness/confusing", and when they are retired "why should their achievements be overshadowed". It's got to stop, and if Men won't police themselves, and insist on valuing men's reputation and careers over women's safety, well then I have no issue with women inventing new norms.
jergul large member	Thu Dec 06 14:00:19 Seb I meant that if the idea is self-protection, then the person is too late. The metoo related stuff will be from his past. So what Sure. That is all part and parcel to any backlash. The justification for the backlash is irrelevant. Though I do find financial folk's sudden paranoia to be particularly trite. I would worry more about women being channeled into the public sector, then see public oversight neutering private sector male initiative by way of women dominated beauracratic norms asserting themselves. There are backlashes to backlashes after all.
so what Member	Thu Dec 06 14:07:24 Sometimes this and other such recent things seems like a "planned" backlash.
Seb Member	Thu Dec 06 16:32:51 Jergul: Oooh. I thought that was a bit incongruous!
Pillz Member	Thu Dec 06 16:52:50 I hope putin nukes Europe just to rid us of Seb. The whole continent, just to be safe.
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