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Utopia Talk / Politics / Michael Not Cooperating
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Dec 07 16:03:15

Substantial jail time and a $500,000.00 fine.

And a very deep fraud over a length of time.


Average Ameriacn
Member
Fri Dec 07 16:07:54
No problem, Trump will pardon Michael.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:08:36
Trump will be happy... i guess

Southern District of New York claims Cohen was not actually that cooperative w/ all the crimes he's committed (& likely Trump too) (the non-Russia investigation crimes)

Mueller is supposed to release some kind of different report about how much Cohen helping w/ the Russia investigation.


the good news is maybe SDNY has other info on those crimes thus how they know he's not cooperating
Rugian
Member
Fri Dec 07 16:09:07
H E R O
E
R
O

And tumbleweeds weekend is now ruined. Lol
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:12:22
not actually... i hated Cohen :p ('Trump's goon' was how i referred to him)

it's a 40 page doc, sounds like lots of juicy details... also may lead to problems for Trump Org

some snippets showing up on Twitter... the fake invoices Trump Org set up to repay him for the mistress payoffs appear to be in it
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:15:53
Trump is "Individual 1" again :p

the unindicted co-conspirator
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Dec 07 16:24:29

Trump did not have anything good to say about Cohen today.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:26:38
Mueller's doc seems to be more appreciative of Cohen, that he provided 'relevant and useful information'

there will be much paperwork to read... and for someone to fill Trump in on as he won't read it
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:28:55
here's the Mueller sentencing doc... (not as long as the SDNY one, don't have a link for that yet)

http://www...3418-Mueller-Cohen-filing.html
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Dec 07 16:35:14

Well, let's see how it unfolds.

It's early yet.


Personally, I think he is a known liar and is likely lying about dealings with Russia. He doesn't give much info on Russia so it may be a weak case he is giving them.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:37:05
^ the Mueller one seems mostly about his lying about the Moscow Tower... but the last paragraph of p5 gets to some indication of how he's helping Mueller

also of note is he was apparently an "Executive Vice President" at Trump Org... so not just Trump's lawyer... & not exactly the meaningless guy Trump portrayed
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:40:08
"lying about dealings with Russia"

Trump said he was lying but didn't say what about... Trump didn't deny the deal continued til June or July or whatever... he denied nothing specific, mostly Trump argued he was allowed to do whatever as he was a businessman (meaning he knew what Cohen saying was true).

Also that filing says what Cohen eventually admitted to is corroborated by other evidence.

There is no doubt Trump is the liar when smearing Cohen, and Mueller, and Tillerson, and every other person who can expose him.
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Dec 07 16:44:51

Trump has not committed a crime according to liberal Alan Dershowitz.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:45:22
Dershowitz has been defending Trump all along as i'm sure you know
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Fri Dec 07 16:51:22

Yes, because he knows the law and has been saying all along that there is no such crime as collusion.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 16:53:53
everyone has been saying there's no crime called collusion
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 17:26:11
in retrospect not that odd that the SDNY said Cohen didn't cooperate much, as they had to give Pecker at the Enquirer immunity (plus i think a high up guy at Trump Org) to expose Cohen's mistress payoff schemes

plus they raided his office getting plenty of evidence for the other crimes (plus had evidence before that in order to get permission to raid)

it wasn't til after he pleaded guilty to all the crimes that he said he wanted to be helpful, and that was about Mueller's investigation
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 17:34:22
this is the document detailing Manafort's lies to Mueller... (the 3rd of the big docs today... 2 for Cohen plus this one)
http://www...s/5453474-Manafort-filing.html

a lot of black ink, but clearly some lies are about his talks w/ a Russian (Kilimnik)... so that could be interesting...
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 17:36:36
and for anyone interested, here's the longest one... the Southern District of New York (SDNY) one on Cohen sentencing (40 pages)

http://www...DNY-Cohen-sentencing-memo.html

... i haven't read
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 07 19:48:18
I read it. Doesn't take to long as a lot of it explains why he is being denied more leniency in his sentencing and kind of repeats information listed earlier in the report.

His schemes for cheating on paying taxes are really interesting. When his loans came crashing down he would have been headed to jail anyway even without the election fuck-ups.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 07 21:55:06
David French's assessment

he's a Never Trump republican (as all respectable republicans should be) but not a raging or unreasonable one

http://www...ng-brief-trump-legal-problems/

basically saying Trump directing Cohen in committing those 2 campaign finance felonies is bad, but also there should be concern about his role in getting people to lie

& i have no doubt he tries to do that as he has no moral fiber, not sure he even knows what 'lying' means (plus we already heard he tried to get McGahn to lie awhile ago)
obaminated
Member
Sat Dec 08 02:26:54
another nothing burger for the left to whine about
kargen
Member
Sat Dec 08 03:47:15
Wishful thinking on David French's part. President Trump obviously knew about the payments. Less likely that he knew about the two dummy corporations and false invoices. Reading the document that part of the whole thing was on Cohen and an officer in the Trump organization. If all Mueller has is what is in this document (we all suspect he has more) then President Trump is on solid ground. This won't even be a blip in the upcoming 2020 election.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Dec 08 11:17:30
French was noting the lying about the tower in Moscow... Cohen admits talking to people (redacted) & seems likely they would want their stories straight. I would not find it hard to believe at all that Trump told Cohen what to say. (Trump told McGahn to lie about what he told McGahn, plus Trump tells everyone to lie... see Sarah Sanders / Sean Spicer)


"another nothing burger"

yeah, just the President's campaign manager, and 12-year employee/VP/lawyer/goon going to prison... as well as implicating Trump in at least two of the felonies... happens all the time

plus more links to Russia revealed, like some Russian approaching Cohen offering 'synergy on a government level' w/ the Trump campaign... wanting to set up meetings between Trump & Putin... and how it would be helpful to Trump politically as well as w/ the Tower project.
(supposedly not followed up on, but Jesus... that's the whole collusion angle... & that's not the only Russian tentacle into the campaign... Manafort happened to have another, w/ lots of redaction there)

Plus more evidence Trump lying about everything... as they aren't taking Cohen's or Manafort's words, they have corroboration.
kargen
Member
Sun Dec 09 00:42:58
Thing is there was nothing illegal talking about a tower. The illegal part way lying about talking about a tower while under oath. Guess who that is on...

President Trump hasn't been implicated in anything illegal to this point and time. You need to remember the collusion thing was collusion to influence the election. So far all that is shown is a possibility of favorable decisions towards Russia after the election and what we have seen now points to that not involving President Trump in the talks.

All you got is President Trump maybe being an asshole and maybe lying. Neither is illegal unless he lied under oath like Cohen did.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 01:41:51
from article:

the Nixon articles of impeachment accused the president of:

"
approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employees of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.
"

The Clinton articles of impeachment repeatedly allege that the president “corruptly encouraged” witnesses to make false statements in a federal civil action and that he “made false and misleading statements to potential witnesses in a Federal grand jury proceeding in order to corruptly influence the testimony of those witnesses.”

------

Trump doing all of ^that is very believable, surprising if he didn't really... even in public tweeting he acts corruptly, just imagine in private

------

also everything that is redacted (which was a lot across Flynn, Cohen, & Manafort is evidence yet to be disclosed to the public, almost certainly for more indictments)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 01:44:57
also the Mueller probe is not about only nailing Trump... even though Trump's sole concern is his own jeopardy, Mueller has uncovered reams of info on what the Russians did & the many contacts into Trump campaign, w/ more to come

Trump & Trump shills on Fox continuing to say 'meh, nothing found, time to shut down' is disgusting
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Dec 09 04:46:56

"as well as implicating Trump in at least two of the felonies..."

What two felonies and why are the felonies?



"also the Mueller probe is not about only nailing Trump... even though Trump's sole concern is his own jeopardy, Mueller has uncovered reams of info on what the Russians did & the many contacts into Trump campaign, w/ more to come"

And your proof is... Or are you lying now?



tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 11:26:17
the mistress payoffs were 2 felonies (they have been pleaded guilty to & are being sentenced for, lets stop pretending they weren't crimes*)

this isn't completely new info as Cohen said Trump directed him back at his plea deal

but in the sentencing document the prosecutors again claim Trump directed it (& not just based on Cohen's word)... and for that matter the illegal reimbursement of Cohen was some 'executive' at Trump Org's idea (probably not Trump, but still another crime that hopefully isn't completely immunized).


*... that's not to say Trump couldn't be found 'not guilty' at trial, he could lie that the payoffs were just to keep it from Melania or something (as if he has a problem embarrassing her daily) but Cohen said it was for the campaign (& the prosecutors could easily have additional evidence on motive, just like they do for Trump being involved... probably from Pecker and/or the executive at Trump Org)... plus Trump's on tape talking about it...


as to Mueller, if you are unaware that he has uncovered detailed info on what Russians were doing (which a REAL president would actually care about, instead of not even acknowledging), plus numerous Russian contacts w/ various Trump campaign members, then start watching other news outlets

as to 'more to come'... the redactions strongly suggest more to come... it wouldn't be info already revealed in the finished trials

we know Roger Stone & his criminal associate hasn't been resolved... the Trump Tower meeting hasn't been addressed... and likely some surprises to come, as many of Muellers indictments already have been
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 11:43:54
from doc:
"In particular, and as Cohen himself has now admitted, with respect to both payments, he acted in coordination with and at the direction of Individual-1"

'Individual 1 = Trump' (established w/ 100% clarity elsewhere in doc)

it's not merely 'Cohen claims it', instead 'it is established, & Cohen admits it'

plus numerous times it notes the purpose was to influence election, again not w/ just 'cohen claiming' so
kargen
Member
Sun Dec 09 19:03:05
"the mistress payoffs were 2 felonies (they have been pleaded guilty to & are being sentenced for, lets stop pretending they weren't crimes*)"

Yes but not for President Trump. They were illegal campaign contributions. A candidate can use any amount of his own money he wants on his own campaign so this doesn't bite him in the ass legally.

Cohen says he did it because he didn't want the stories to have a negative impact on the election. The report also says Cohen expected to get a cabinet appointment and profited from President Trump being elected. Easy to make the claim he had his own self interests in mind. President Trump has said he didn't want his family to find out. He might be lying but unless someone has a recording of his saying this could cost me the fucking election, pay them the courts will have to treat it like he didn't want his family to know.

There might be something in the redacted portions that nails him but for now nothing proves President Trump did anything illegal. So far the only repercussions for President Trump might be that this somehow hurts him in 2020.
Pillz
Member
Sun Dec 09 20:15:24
The only thing that could hurt Trump is proof of his secret gay romance with Kim Jong Un
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Dec 09 20:56:07

How can the 'mistress payoffs' be felonies if the only reason Trump had to cover them up was to keep his family from finding out?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 21:42:08
"A candidate can use any amount of his own money he wants on his own campaign so this doesn't bite him in the ass legally."

PLEASE STOP making this argument, Trump didn't make the payments so this is not relevant... AT ALL


and preventing his family from knowing is not the only possible motive... both payoffs were right before election... and Cohen says it was for the election, and the campaign-long agreement with David Pecker was to protect Trump for the election... so that's 2 people who would confirm it minimally, perhaps the Trump org exec who setup the illegal repayments to Cohen also confirmed

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Dec 09 21:48:45

What other motives can be proved?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 21:48:50
it's the prosecutors claiming Trump directed it and it was for the campaign... that's how prosecutions work, they analyze the evidence and make the charges... maybe Trump would beat the charges at trial by lying as always, or maybe he wouldn't

he won't be prosecuted as he's president at the moment
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Sun Dec 09 21:50:34

One thing confuses me.

He put in at least $1,000,000 of his own money into the campaign.

Is he allowed to take it back?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 09 21:57:29
as far as I know he only ever loaned money, so knowing him he probably has taken it back and with interest

I know he has kept his campaign offices open his entire presidency, so is soaking up hefty rent out of campaign contributions for the shittiest office space in Trump Tower
(Idiots even gave him credit for using shitty office space... even though that was only a benefit to him to rent crap to himself that no one else would pay as much for)
kargen
Member
Mon Dec 10 16:03:55
"PLEASE STOP making this argument, Trump didn't make the payments so this is not relevant... AT ALL"

And there you have it. No crime by President Trump related to paying the ladies. You do know what a campaign contribution is?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Dec 10 16:25:34
so you are saying mob bosses should never be prosecuted as long as their minions carry out all the crimes?

and one of Cohen's felonies is getting AMI to pay off McDougal... if Cohen is guilty for getting AMI to pay, Trump is guilty for getting Cohen to pay
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Dec 10 16:31:36
also if Trump HAD been the one dipping into his pockets to donate to his own campaign, i'm pretty sure he still would have had to declare it... no ones talking about those requirements as that's not how their scheme went down
kargen
Member
Mon Dec 10 16:33:58
Not saying that at all and you know that is not what I am saying.

We all know (those who read the report) that most if not all of Cohen's actions were because of his greed. Report says that many times. Cohen wanted President Trump to win because Cohen thought he would benefit from a Trump win. His motivation in making the payments were to help President Trump win. We also know (from reading the report) that Cohen has blamed others through the entire process. He tried to blame his accountant for not reporting income when Cohen didn't give his accountant the info needed to report income. Falls right into his wheelhouse to say hey Trump made me do it. President Trump has stated he wanted the gals silenced so his family wouldn't find out. That is a reasonable reaction. So again unless someone has President Trump recorded and flat out admitting the payments were to influence the election then there is nothing.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Dec 10 16:48:51
there is no way in hell Cohen's motive was merely to help Trump out of self-interest and without Trump being involved

A) Cohen got repaid... w/ a HUGE bonus
B) Trump is ON TAPE discussing one of the deals

we don't know what evidence they have... we do know Cohen pleaded guilty to it, he didn't have to... we know they gave immunity to Pecker at AMI & an exec at Trump Org just to uncover the whole scheme (& the document above does NOT say their conclusions are based solely on Cohen's claims, in fact it clearly notes it's not the case)

also, Cohen got NO reduced time for implicating Trump (there was nothing in the original plea deal or sentencing doc about that)
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Wed Dec 12 11:23:15
Michael Cohen Sentenced To 36 Months In Prison

http://www...enced-right-now-new-york-court
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Dec 12 11:29:37
Trump's henchman for 12 years

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Wed Dec 12 12:08:42

Plus just over $2 Million in fines and restitution.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Dec 12 12:11:11
if Trump pardons him we'll know he's covering for heaps of crimes
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Dec 12 13:18:43
and now it's official:

AMI (National Enquirer) in it's deal w/ prosecutors is indeed admitting the payment was to protect the Trump campaign

so... Trump's a criminal
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Dec 12 13:19:02
*its
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Dec 12 14:33:07
Trump:
"Number one, it wasn't a campaign contribution. If it were, it's only civil, and even if it's only civil, there was no violation based on what we did. OK?"

facts:
-it WAS a campaign contribution (per Cohen & AMI under oath, + other evidence perhaps)
-it was NOT a civil case (Cohen convicted criminally)
-there WAS a violation (Cohen convicted criminally)

...and he says "we"!

if you had no involvement you wouldn't say "we"
Average Ameriacn
Member
Wed Dec 12 15:01:19
I just made the National Enquirer the new start page in my browser replacing AOL. You guys can ask me for help if you want to do it, too, it's quite complicated.
so what
Member
Thu Dec 13 13:45:53
So… there is still no proof of Russian collusion. And the establishment wants to impeach Trump because he paid off two women he slept with? That would be so silly.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 18:53:51
no, Republicans keep saying Dems are going to impeach him over the women... it's not going to happen, no one plans to over that

luckily Trump is a corrupt piece of garbage, so lots more will be coming down the pipe
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 19:32:25
also... by dismissing these crimes, are we saying any rich people should be able to spend any amount of money to squash any stories during elections?

I'm fine with this being illegal

Also of note, Trump is claiming these aren't crimes and were just put in there to embarrass him... so apparently our justice system is horribly corrupt and no one is doing anything about it... including Trump (merely stating lies to his idiot fans is not productive). Are people in congress horrified and rushing to act? Nope... why not...

Hot Rod
Revved Up
Thu Dec 13 19:49:26

tw - so apparently our justice system is horribly corrupt and no one is doing anything about it...


Not sure if it was DA of NYC or the AG of New York but one of them stated the other day that she was going to investigate every aspect of President
Trump's. Including all of his business' and his tax return.

What is wrong with that idea?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 20:13:29
it's about time

here's an article on it
http://www...g-investigations-trump-n946706

and there's already reason to suspect criminal activity in all of it so completely appropriate

there were lengthy investigations by news outlets exposing his tax fraud and business fraud, we've heard plenty about inappropriate use of his charity money, we know Trump Org paid off Cohen with fraud invoices, etc
Forwyn
Member
Thu Dec 13 20:15:47
"are we saying any rich people should be able to spend any amount of money to squash any stories during elections?"

Should? Probably not, but John Edwards got away with it.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 21:06:09
John Edwards got charged... and it was a hung jury on most charges, not acquittals... and the circumstances completely different.

And even though kargen thinks Trump has claimed it was to hide it from his family, he's only remembering every Trump shill suggesting Trump say it, as that's what Edwards went with. But even if he did say it, he's lying, as always.

Pecker (of AMI) agreed to catch and kill stories for Trump to specifically protect the campaign (and reportedly that meeting attended by Trump himself). Plus Cohen saying its purpose was for campaign. And that's just the evidence we know about.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 21:19:45
also, Trump has changed his story yet again:

'I had no idea about the payments'
to:
'I didn't tell him to make the payments'
now:
'I didn't direct him to do anything illegal'
Hot Rod
Revved Up
Thu Dec 13 21:24:46

Sigh.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Dec 13 22:00:53
does it bother you the President is claiming prosecutors are convicting his associates of fake crimes and that Mueller is forcing people to lie and nobody in power cares... nobody is taking the word of the President seriously as they all know he's lying garbage..

how can he be allowed to keep the position?
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 14 00:16:46
Okay right off the top President Trump lying about it really isn't relevant to whether his actions were legal or not. He wasn't under oath so nothing there.

If he were trying to keep his family from knowing does it not make sense that he would deny things?

We also get to throw this into the mix. If an expense is not exclusive to the campaign then it isn't considered campaign related. I'm explaining that poorly but what it means is if the expense is something the candidate could expect to pay were he not running then it isn't a campaign expense. As President trump often paid lawyers fees this falls under private payment and not campaign related. Cohen can say what he wants but it doesn't change the campaign finance laws.

Now we get to play the he did it to game. Let's say the payments were campaign related and fall into the illegal contribution/payment category. President Obama had a much bigger discrepancy and all that was required of him was a small fine. So worst case scenario legally for President Trump in the Cohen mess is his campaign pays a small fine. That's it.

Politically it could cause him harm and should cause him harm. His lying while not illegal should not be condoned.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 00:41:26
Obama's situation was not remotely similar... i have no idea how you can compare them

they were not illegal donations, just not reported on time... and no suggestion it was an attempt to deliberately mislead or deceive (unlike the shell company usage of criminals Cohen & Trump)... & there'd be no reason to implicate Obama personally or anyone else in a criminal offense

whereas, Cohen/Trump situation IS criminal... illegal donations way in excess & purposely hidden... Cohen has been convicted of them... and he did not benefit from pleading guilty to them

hopefully the last time i'm going to fight this IDIOTIC notion that it wasn't criminal when Cohen's conviction is completed, accepted, & sentenced
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 00:46:50
and John Edwards is proof it IS a crime rather than a reason to say it's NOT a crime

one person escaping conviction doesn't mean the crime is no longer a crime
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 14 01:18:32
Cohen criminal because he submitted false information on invoices among other things.

President Trump not illegal because his business was paying a lawyer.

And you keep forgetting President Trump was running for office and Cohen was not meaning different laws apply.

Hopefully this is the last time I have to point out that Cohen and President Trump are not the same person. Cohen's guilt in no way proves President Trump's guilt. Our court system doesn't work that way.
www.yeswecansong.com
Member
Fri Dec 14 03:25:24
So AMI media corporation helps Trump to win the election.

And Trump repays by attacking the competition of AMI and calling them fake.

Corruption.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 11:22:44
Cohen's crime was not related to the false invoices

He was guilty of his own excess campaign contribution to Stormy (which he was fully repaid w/ huge bonus by Trump Org, strongly suggesting Trump fully aware)

and Cohen was guilty for his role in getting AMI to pay the money (a corporate excess campaign contribution).

do you think AMI/Pecker paid the money because Cohen was asking or because Trump was asking?

AMI was never repaid so yet more reason your 'Trump can use his own money' defense doesn't work not that it was ever claimed that he DID use his own money.

Apparently AMI realized what they were doing was illegal & asked Cohen to rip up their agreement, however he didn't, & feds found it when raiding his place, thus connecting the dots. And the crime already completed by AMI making the payment to the woman to protect Trump's campaign (the whole agreement was about protecting the campaign)

So, of the people involved, minimally 2, under oath, saying the payments were for the campaign (& quite possibly a 3rd person, Alan Weasel-berg at Trump Org).

NO ONE is saying otherwise, not even Trump (if you have evidence Trump ever said it was to hide from family or other reasons, please present). And there could be other documentary or recording evidence... they haven't had to reveal all their cards.
Rugian
Member
Fri Dec 14 11:58:20
Very well, the Trump campaign should be found guilty of a civil offense and pay a hefty fine as punishment. Does that satisfy you?
hood
Member
Fri Dec 14 12:00:28
?

Bitches be getting jail time. What you mean civil?
Rugian
Member
Fri Dec 14 12:01:19
As for Cohen, he may as well be dead to the world as no one will ever trust him again. Even Judas didn't lie to frame Jesus when he betrayed him.


(Then again, Judas wasn't dealing with an FBI that was openly threatening him and his family if he didn't cooperate, so theres that)
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 14 12:27:07
May 4, 2018:

In a statement, Giuliani sought to clarify his previous remarks, saying the payments were unrelated to Trump’s candidacy:

"There is no campaign violation. The payment was made to resolve a personal and false allegation in order to protect the President's family," Giuliani said. "It would have been done in any event, whether he was a candidate or not."

President Trump had been saying that for quite a while before May 2018. In fact he started giving that narrative very shortly after admitting he knew about the payments.

You are correct that we don't know everything yet. That is why I based what I said on what we have seen so far. You on the other hand are adamantly claiming he is guilty only because you want him to be guilty. Guilt by association doesn't really fly in court.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 12:36:02
Giuliani saying something is not Trump saying it... and even Giuliani isn't claiming that is Trump's position, i really doubt you will find Trump ever said it

and Giuliani has not exactly been a trustworthy source of info
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 14 13:59:19
President Trump said it way before Giuliani did. Not that it matters because they have been saying it since at least May as the quote above shows.

And you are still calling him guilty only because you want him to be guilty.

You have decided Cohen must be telling the truth but two months ago you were convinced Cohen couldn't open his mouth without lying.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 17:02:27
Trump has NOT said it, you haven't demonstrated that yet (nor even Giuliani claiming Trump said it)... plus Trump has no problem saying what Giuliani said is wrong, it's already happened

(+ that Giuliani quote you posted could be him just claiming Cohen's motives)


also I've noted repeatedly these claims are not based on Cohen's word alone

Pecker also stated it

and the prosecutors are stating it... we don't know all their reasons but it was clearly not Cohen's word alone or they wouldn't have stated it as fact, and only noted Cohen had also admitted to it

also the story makes complete sense...
a) Trump's going to repay 6 figures to a guy who spent the money w/ no knowledge? Cohen didn't confirm Stormy actually rode the toad?
b) why in the hell would AMI do it w/o Trump's knowledge
c) TRUMP IS ON TAPE DISCUSSING IT
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 17:05:16
& it happened right after the pussy-grabbing tape

obviously it would've been damaging
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 17:40:42
at least 2 people involved under oath have claimed one thing & it makes complete sense

literally no one involved has claimed otherwise

i'll go w/ fact pattern 'A' over the made-up fact pattern that happens to be best for Trump
kargen
Member
Fri Dec 14 18:15:43
The thing is they also claimed something else while under oath.

Cohen may well have done it thinking about the election. Fits his own selfish persona to do something like that.

President Trump may have wanted to keep the family from finding out or being embarrassed. THe embarrassment part fits his persona.

You can't assume Cohen and Trump were motivated by the same thing. You are still clinging to that guilt by association thing and just will not let go.
So where is the evidence President Trump said pay them so they don't fuck up my campaign? Is there a tape you have heard I have not? Are you privy to some inside information the rest of us do not have access to?
Or is your whole entire argument based on the opinions of people that obviously had motives of their own and were/are willing to lie to farther their own cause?

Where is your proof? Yes we all know it was discussed on tape. You bring that up often but all that proves is that President Trump knew about the payment. It offers not one clue as to his thinking or motive for making the payment and that motive is what we are arguing.

He might well be lying when he says (and he has said it) I didn't want my family to know but so far we have seen nothing at all that proves he is lying.
hood
Member
Fri Dec 14 18:53:20
"The thing is they also claimed something else while under oath."

Yes, before threat of extensive jail time. Are you going to risk that a prosecutor ready to bring charges against you DOESN'T have corroborating evidence to nail you on every lie you tell?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Dec 14 18:58:38
so even though Trump is NOT claiming he did it to keep from family, you will ascribe that to him & assume it is accurate based on nothing as it would provide cover

i'll choose to believe the obvious truth
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun Dec 16 21:34:58
"Up until November 2016, they could have had a conversation about Trump Tower Moscow, and it went nowhere," Giuliani told CNN.
http://www...iuliani-trump-tower/index.html

hey look, when Trump said Cohen was lying about the Moscow Tower timeline it was Trump who was lying... shocker

how anyone believes a single word out of his mouth is beyond me
Forwyn
Member
Fri Jan 04 02:14:47
Silly Rod heard Fox bleating and hoped that Trump associates would be spared the axe. RIP bud
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