Utopia Talk / Politics / Refugee pact signed in Morocco!

Asgard Member	Tue Dec 18 20:52:43 "The Intergovernmental Conference to Adopt the Global Compact for Safe, Orderly and Regular Migration, will be held in Marrakech. This Intergovernmental Conference is convened under the auspices of the General Assembly of the United Nations and held pursuant to the “New York Declaration for Refugees and Migrants” (19 September 2016) which decided to launch a process of intergovernmental negotiations leading to the adoption of a global compact for safe, orderly and regular migration." --see UN website In response, a Danish and a Norwegian student travelers were raped had their throats cut near Marrakech: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/dec/17/bodies-of-two-female-tourists-found-in-moroccos-high-atlas Because Sebism is great. Gotta love Sebism.
Seb Member	Tue Dec 18 22:35:31 Asgard: Sounds like asgardism to me.
so what Member	Wed Dec 19 14:02:28 Why do you support this migration pact, seb?
Paramount Member	Wed Dec 19 14:06:25 The agreement is about sending immigrants back to Morocco and to halt people from migrating to Europe.
Paramount Member	Wed Dec 19 14:09:28 ”back to Morocco” * back to Africa
Dukhat Member	Wed Dec 19 14:21:14 So Asgard buys into cheap demagoguery too. Sad how most guys online are so impulsive and steeped in Toxic Masculinity.
Seb Member	Wed Dec 19 16:22:21 So what: No idea, haven't read the details. Bit busy digesting the complete constitutional meltdown of my county.
The Children Member	Fri Dec 21 01:00:12 why were they in morroco, out in the wilds, 2 lone females...
Paramount Member	Fri Dec 21 01:35:16 Good question. Why are scandinavians travelling to an area where there are IS-fighters? I thought it was forbidden to do these terror-trips.
Asgard Member	Fri Dec 21 03:23:35 Morocco is not an ISIS hub, it’s just an Arab country, good at exporting zealots and has some nice culture and architecture and scenery. Most of the terrorists in France to date are Morrocan or Algerian, which is the same culture basically.
Seb Member	Fri Dec 21 22:49:22 Gosh. Why could that be? Asgard?
Asgard Member	Sun Dec 23 14:44:05 Probably due to Arab mentality. Same reason by the way, that under-privileged and disenfranchised youth of minority background do not go blowing up concerts with guns and bombs and knives and grenades killing 200 people, in places like Southern Mexico or Texas.
Asgard Member	Sun Dec 23 14:44:43 Oh, sorry, you must have meant that Arab youths should be forgiven for everything they do exactly because they are Arab youths.
Seb Member	Sun Dec 23 17:35:17 Asgard: Algeria is far from the biggest Arab country. Hint, Google "Algeria France History".
Asgard Member	Fri Dec 28 07:42:21 I fail to see where I stated that it is
Seb Member	Fri Dec 28 10:38:21 I'm not going to spell it out for you.
Asgard Member	Fri Dec 28 12:50:06 I do not want to discuss why most Arabs in France are from this country or that country. The discussion is you forgiving them for whatever they're doing because of who and what they are.
Seb Member	Fri Dec 28 21:11:24 Given that's not my position, now or ever, that's not really a discussion worth having is it?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Dec 30 05:49:46 Asgard You are not denying, that a grievance narrative exists or that one can plausibly be made? I don’t think you are. From my POV it just is not a valid excuse and more or less serves as a ”whatabout” segway to put the responsibility and ownership of the actual problems on people who can’t solve it for you (colonial powers). There are deep sociocultural problems in the Islamic world that will not get solved because rich white people throw money and guilt at it.
Seb Member	Sun Dec 30 11:33:10 Nim: "Most of the terrorists in France to date are Morrocan or Algerian, which is the same culture basically" The thing is, Algerian diaspora in France manifestly *isn't* the same culture as Morroco. Firstly the history: France brought a huge number of Algerians into France to provide the workforce for post war reconstruction. It fought a particularly bloody colonial war to try and retain Algeria as part of France in the 1960s, on which terrorism in France played a role, resulting in bloody crackdowns on Algerian migrants in France, without a huge amount of discrimination. This exposed Frances "we are all French" attitude as hypocrisy. While post conflict Algeria moves on, that's still very much a defining feature of Algerians in France. In rural France (i.e. outside Paris), the Algerian conflict replete with various atrocities by the French is still celebrated annually by veterans and often the wider village. While, as in all conflicts, there were atrocities on both sides, the French still don't really acknowledge those perpetrated by the French. In the meantime, while officially France had insisted as a matter of policy on being race blind, in practice their North African migrants have been kept confined to inner city areas originally built to house the workers. Generally, these are characterised by poor quality high rise housing, crap public service provision, crap public transport. They actually (if you happen into them) feel like the road layout is designed to make them difficulty t to get into and out of: intentionally isolated. Then there's the discrimination. Even compared to other countries with a similar historical pattern (the UK with Caribbean immigrants for the same reason at the same time), France has terrible levels of integration. For decades hiding behind officially colour blind policies, they accepted huge levels of discrimination of various types: from afformentioned effective ghettoisation through to soft discrimination (e.g. even as late as a decade ago, academics were doing studies where they sent the same CV with a traditionally garlic name and a French Algerian name to multiple employers showing huge bias in calls to interview). Looking at representation in all the top levels of society and in media, the French-Algerians are hugely under-represented. And all of this the state not only refused to acknowledge, they actually made illegal to even study the issue at a national level by deeming even collecting official stats by ethnicity to be racists, allowing a public narrative of "they refuse to be French" to be the dominant narrative. Compare this stats policy to, e.g. republicans blocking any official national statistics on gun fatalities. So it's simply bogus to say there is the same culture. You are looking at the most superficial level. French Algerians are probably poor, urban, ghettoised (with all the common issues that effects that: political and social marginalisation, poverty traps, poor education services, high unemployment); in a society that has huge levels of discrimination against them, which in living memory was subjected to harsh state intervention as almost an enemy demographic, and where brutal atrocities against their ethic group in a colonial war are still celebrated *with pride* in large chunks of the country. This isn't made up, or imagined. That's France, for anyone who knows it well.
Asgard Member	Mon Dec 31 04:24:11 basically what you're saying is that you're forgiving anything they're doing based on how bad they were treated as a colony.
jergul large member	Mon Dec 31 06:09:18 What part of resistance from European ghettos do you find distasteful Asgard? A reminder of how some Hungarian Jews were complicit in the mass extermination (what some people did to secure exit visas to Turkey for themselves and their loved ones boggles the mind)?
Seb Member	Mon Dec 31 09:58:18 Asgard: Can you point to the bit where I say the terrorists should be forgiven?
Seb Member	Mon Dec 31 10:57:12 To Summarise: Asgard thinks French nationals of Algerian descent are culturally Morrocan and refugees, which is why most of the terrorists in France are French Algerian.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jan 01 07:40:32 http://en....rorist_incidents_inside_France A quick glance shows that over the last 15 years Algerian has no correlation with terror attacks in France. I am not even sure they are overrepresented. Moroccon seems just as common, the common denominator is Islam. At any rate, nothing I said is contingent on the veracity of said "grievance narrative". It could be that the specific Algerian narrative is a little true or mostly true. My point is that there are a set of problems that other may have inflicted on you, but that they can not solve for you. Imagine you get hit by a car and paralyzed, the drunk driver goes to jail, but you will never ever walk again without your own effort and pain going through rehabilitation. We can all agree that the drunk driver was solely responsible for the entire thing, does not change the reality you find yourself in. Whatever real or imagined grievance former European colonies have is irrelevant and furthermore there is zero correlation between being a former European colony and exhibiting animosity over this historical fact towards said nation. The common denominator is again Islam, which you can see as French forces have no issues operating (invited) in Africa fighting The Islamic State in their former colonies. You only need to show me one example of a former French colony that isn't Islamic and is conducting terror attacks against France. Just one. Where are the Vietnamese terror waves against France and the USA? You know how ruthlessly Vietnam was raped by these two colonial powers? Whatever France did in Algeria pales in comparison. I could probably write an essay eon how Buddhism and it's way if internally dealing with suffering vs Islam and the underdog story of the warlord Muhammed provides a substrate for different narratives in dealing with conflict and suffering. The existance of a real grievance narrative (even one based on colonialism) is neither an excuse a prerequist nor preordained to end up like Algeria vis a vi France. The layer(s) of culture/religion and ideology matters in they take shape. It is a mistake as you are doing to try to understand other cultures and people through Eurocentric eyes.
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