Utopia Talk / Politics / Boycotting democracy in Venezuela

Paramount Member	Tue Jan 29 04:15:15 It is evident that the opposition in Venezuela and those who supports Guaido does not want to participate in a democratic process. They just want to boycott democracy and grab the power. The contempt for democracy is strong among the rightists. http://www.../venezuela-coup-guaido-maduro/ Venezuela: Call It What It Is—a Coup The power grab of the right’s Juan Guaidó is brazenly unconstitutional. No matter how you slice it, an attempted coup is underway in Venezuela. Here are the basics: On Wednesday, Juan Guaidó, a relatively unknown second-string politician from the right-wing Popular Will party, simply declared himself acting president. Guaidó was not elected president—Nicolás Maduro was, in May of last year in a vote that the opposition might have won had they not boycotted it. Guaidó was elected to the opposition-controlled National Assembly, recently assuming the Assembly presidency through an informal power-sharing agreement among the opposition’s political parties. One poll even suggests that as recently as a week ago, more than 80 percent of Venezuelans had no idea who Guaidó even was. So call it what you want: attempted regime change, a putsch, a “soft” coup—the military hasn’t supported it—just don’t call it constitutional. The opposition strategy is based on Article 233 of the Constitution, which grants the National Assembly the power to declare a president’s “abandonment” of the office. Of course, the kicker is that Maduro hasn’t done anything of the sort, and only the Supreme Court can disqualify sitting presidents. Despite cries of dictatorship, the opposition did win the last election they contested—taking over the Assembly in late 2015 and using their platform to try to overthrow Maduro. When the Assembly insisted on seating legislators charged with election fraud, the Supreme Court declared the legislature in contempt, and we have since seen a tit-for-tat standoff between the legislature and judiciary. To break the deadlock, Maduro called elections to a National Constituent Assembly, as Article 348 of the Constitution empowers him to do. The opposition boycotted those elections, citing unfair electoral conditions, and handed victory to Chavismo. When Maduro was up for reelection last year, most again refused to participate. Despite Guaidó’s brazenly unconstitutional power grab, right-wing governments across Latin America and beyond have recognized him as the legitimate leader of Venezuela. In a video released last week, US Vice President Mike Pence, in terrible Spanish, preemptively expressed the Trump regime’s support for Venezuela’s opposition forces, effectively urging them to act. This is no surprise; Trump has made no secret of his hostility toward Maduro, and his meetings with disloyal Venezuelan military officers have been well-documented. If this all sounds familiar, it’s because we’ve seen it before: The Venezuelan opposition is no stranger to coups, like the brief, US-backed ouster of Hugo Chávez in 2002, or the political violence it has unleashed in the streets continuously since 2013. And it didn’t start with Trump, either: As secretary of state, Hillary Clinton supported a 2009 coup in Honduras that unleashed terror and helped spark a migrant exodus. The United States has since overseen a rightward shift across the hemisphere, whether through elections in Argentina, Guatemala, and Chile, or so-called “soft” coups in Paraguay and Brazil. The latter paved the way for the recent election of Jair Bolsonaro, an open admirer of Brazil’s bloody military dictatorship who celebrated Guaidó’s attempted coup in the name of democracy. It’s clear that Trump cares about as much about everyday Venezuelans as he cares about the migrant families at the border—his sanction regime has thrown the Venezuelan economy into a tailspin and heaped suffering upon the poorest. But while establishment Democrats hyperventilate over Russian meddling in US elections, it is doubtful that many will say a word about this far more direct and dangerous attempt at regime change. In the coming days, the diplomatic standoff will prove decisive. In response to Trump and Pence’s overt meddling, Maduro broke off relations with the United States and has expelled American diplomats. Trump, however, has refused to recognize Maduro’s authority to do so, and while it would be understandable for Venezuela to detain the diplomatic staff in response, this would give Trump the pretext he needs for a “military option,” which he has threatened in the past. Among Venezuelans, Trump’s endorsement will likely do Guaidó more harm than good, making it perfectly clear that he is the candidate of empire. For the time being, as this standoff deepens, things will only get worse for those who always bear the brunt: the poorest Venezuelans; those who, while deeply frustrated with their government, aren’t likely to trade their hard-won democracy for an unconstitutional coup.
yankeessuck123 Member	Tue Jan 29 06:52:25 Maduro is an enemy of democracy, and has made every effort to prove it in the preceding years.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 07:02:02 YS So you are on record supporting regime change? ========== Best case scenario is that the opposition wants a do-over to address the election boycott blunder. Which is fair enough. Snap elections within a reasonable window. How fast can that be? I dunno really. How much time do western democracies need between calling snap elections and having them? About 50 days.
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 07:11:18 This is a pretty terrible article in that it downplays (actually fails to mention altogether) Maduro's numerous acts of undermining democracy. You can argue that anti-Maduro coverage is similarly biased and that the situation is not black and white, but pro-Maduro propaganda like this cant be expected to be taken seriously.
Paramount Member	Tue Jan 29 07:12:52 "Maduro's numerous acts of undermining democracy" *Waiting for a long list of undermining acts.*
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 08:08:03 Aj4a, Do you not read the news, nigga? From 2017: Venezuela Muzzles Legislature, Moving Closer to One-Man Rule By Nicholas Casey and Patricia Torres March 30, 2017 IQUITOS, Peru — Venezuela took its strongest step yet toward one-man rule under the leftist President Nicolás Maduro as his loyalists on the Supreme Court seized power from the National Assembly in a ruling late Wednesday night. The ruling effectively dissolved the elected legislature, which is led by Mr. Maduro’s opponents, and allows the court to write laws itself, experts said. The move caps a year in which the last vestiges of Venezuela’s democracy have been torn down, critics and regional leaders say, leaving what many now describe as not just an authoritarian regime, but an outright dictatorship. “What we have warned of has finally come to pass,” said Luis Almagro, the head of the Organization of American States, a regional diplomacy group that includes Venezuela and is investigating the country for violating the bloc’s Democratic Charter. Mr. Almagro called the move a “self-inflicted coup,” a term used in Latin America to denote takeovers typical of the 1990s in Guatemala and Peru — but virtually unheard-of in the region today. Recent months have seen a swift consolidation of power by Mr. Maduro as scores of political prisoners have been detained without trial, protesters violently repressed and local elections postponed. In taking power from the National Assembly, the ruling removed what most consider to be the only remaining counterbalance to the president’s growing power in the country. The court said that lawmakers were “in a situation of contempt,” and that while that lasted, the justices themselves would step in to “ensure that parliamentary powers were exercised directly by this chamber, or by the body that the chamber chooses.” It did not say whether it might hand power back. Members of the National Assembly denounced the ruling on Thursday. “They have kidnapped the Constitution, they have kidnapped our rights, they have kidnapped our liberty,” said Julio Borges, the opposition lawmaker who heads the body, holding a crumpled copy of the ruling before reporters on Thursday. Oneida Guaipe, an opposition lawmaker from the country’s central coast, said the body would continue to do its work, even if its laws would now be ignored when it produced legislation. “This is demonstrating before the world the authoritarianism here,” she said. “The people chose us through a popular vote.” The ruling was also a challenge to Venezuela’s neighbors, which met in Washington this week to put pressure on the country to hold elections, and to discuss a possible expulsion of Venezuela from the O.A.S. on the grounds that the country is not democratic. Last week, the United States, Canada and a dozen of Latin America’s largest nations called for Mr. Maduro to recognize the National Assembly’s powers, a rare joint statement that reflected deep impatience with his government. “We consider it a serious setback for democracy in Venezuela,” the United States State Department said on Thursday of the court decision. Peru withdrew its ambassador in protest. David Smilde, an analyst from the Washington Office on Latin America, a human rights advocacy group, said it might now be up to Venezuela’s neighbors to encourage the country to hold elections again, given resistance from within the government. “The Maduro government seems to have no intention of respecting the basic elements of electoral democracy,” he said. Critics say a long litany of other moves by the government are taking a toll on Venezuela’s democracy. Perhaps most visible to Venezuelans was an effort last year to hold a recall referendum against the president, whose popularity is sinking along with the country’s collapsing economy. While such a referendum was permitted by the country’s Constitution, and highly favored in polls, Mr. Maduro alternatively called the effort illegal or a coup staged by his opponents. In October, a lower court suspended the process on the grounds that there had been irregularities in the gathering of signatures. Meanwhile, political prisoners continued to be arrested. In January, Mr. Maduro established a new “anti-coup commando” to round up political dissidents accused of treason. The group has taken aim at members of the opposition, arresting many, including a city councilman from central Venezuela and a deputy lawmaker in the National Assembly. In February, after CNN en Español, the network’s Spanish language channel, broadcast an investigation that linked Venezuela’s vice president to a passport fraud scheme in the Middle East, Mr. Maduro ordered the channel off the air. The government has blocked the Caracas bureau chief of The New York Times from entering the country since October. But to many, the gradual assault against the National Assembly, more than a year in the making, was the most telling sign of democratic erosion in Venezuela. “It has come in fragments,” Carlos Ayala Corao, a Venezuelan lawyer and legal analyst, said of the court’s actions against the legislature. “They have been slicing it in pieces.” The conflicts began in December 2015, when rising grievances about the country’s faltering economy propelled Mr. Maduro’s opposition to win control of the legislature. It was the first time in years that the chamber was not dominated by the movement founded by the former leftist President Hugo Chávez. Mr. Maduro initially said he accepted the vote. He even appeared before opposition lawmakers to give his annual address on the state of the government in January of last year. But the Supreme Court, packed with loyalists to Mr. Maduro shortly before the National Assembly took power, was chipping away at the chamber’s powers. It refused to let it seat four lawmakers on the grounds that there had been voting irregularities. That denied the opposition of a supermajority, which would have given it expanded powers over Mr. Maduro. The National Assembly went back and forth on the ruling, but eventually complied. As the National Assembly began to get to work, it continued to clash with the court. By last spring, the legislature had written laws delivering on campaign promises like one measure to invigorate the economy and another to free more than 100 political prisoners, only to see the court overturn them as unconstitutional. When Mr. Maduro tried to increase his own powers under a state of emergency that he declared, the legislature rejected the effort. But the court sided with the president. In October, the court stripped the National Assembly of its power to review the annual budget, leaving Mr. Maduro in charge of the country’s purse strings. More recently, legislators tried to block the president from pursuing oil ventures without their approval. In Wednesday’s ruling stripping the National Assembly of its lawmaking powers, the court said the president had the right to make these oil deals. It said its ruling was justified by the Assembly’s choice to keep the lawmakers onboard whose elections had been questioned earlier. This act, it said, rendered the Assembly itself invalid. With few protesters in the streets of Caracas on Thursday, it was unclear what popular support the opposition might get from the public. Analysts say many Venezuelans feel as dispirited by the opposition as by leftist leaders, given the opposition’s continued defeat by the government. Opposition leaders called for protests on Saturday and in the coming week but have been unable to draw large crowds since last fall. John Magdaleno, a political consultant, said he expected a wider crackdown against the opposition from Mr. Maduro in coming weeks, and possibly more arrests. “In my opinion, from now on, there will be growing pressures against lawmakers,” he said, “and it’s probable there will be much greater persecution of political leaders.” http://www...J7R6Pxf0n&ust=1548856859804636
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 29 08:58:52 This is really off-message for Rugian and it only makes sense if you remember he is a retard with his nose buried up Trump's ass. Maduro's a stupid asshole but this other guy would be barely an upgrade if that. We'd replace a leftist dictator with a rightist dictator and it doesn't matter anymore anyways because Venezuela has basically collapsed making whoever rules it king of a molehill. Unless we have a durable, strategic plan to educate Venezuelans not to elect extremists; then it's pointless. And lol at Trump going after Maduro but ignoring Bolsonero. Wannabe dictators all love jerking each other off.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jan 29 09:59:04 "rightist dictator" Can you tell us in what ways Guaidó is a "rightist", Cuckhat?
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 10:14:10 1. The Chavez/Maduro debacle has literally been going on since the early Bush years. Dukhat's attempt to reduce this to partisan "but Trump!" hackery is downright pathetic. 2. Despite the place regularly being in the news for over half of our lifetimes, I'd place good money on Dukhat not knowing a single thing about Venezuela. 3. Seriously, you're such a Trump-obsessed hack. Do this country a favor and eat a bullet, retard.
yankeessuck123 Member	Tue Jan 29 10:59:37 The idea is that Guaidó would be an interim president, with all efforts being made to hold credible elections as soon as possible. "So you are on record supporting regime change?" I mean, I"m 100% on board with Maduro being made to stand down. The "how" is the question. A coalition of democracies offering to support the restoration of democracy, as orchestrated by Venezuelans in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution, seems like a good start.
obaminated Member	Tue Jan 29 11:19:51 yeah i dont think any of us want to send US troops to Venezuela for regime change, that was an odd curve ball for jergul and cuckhat to throw out in their desperate attempts to spin this into an anti-trump thing. We all agree Maduro is a wannabe dictator who wants to be a full blown dictator, but I don't think the situation on the ground will allow that. but, apparently russia is sending in mercs to prop him up, so who knows? Maybe putin will piss away resources to keep up a puppet state in south america.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 11:34:49 Obam I'll bite. What anti-trump content did you find in my post? YS "A coalition of democracies offering to support the restoration of democracy, as orchestrated by Venezuelans in accordance with the Venezuelan constitution, seems like a good start." That is fine. Diplomatic pressure can bring about snap elections. Maduro is however the constitutionally elected president of Venezuela.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 11:38:23 The problem at the core is the same as in Syria. A democratic solution with new elections will not give a desired regime change outcome.
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 11:48:08 Yeah why is that exactly? Oh right, because there's no chance of a free and fair election that will be recognized by the government. Maduro's popularity has been polling in the low twenties and the economy has been in a state of complete collapse for years now. If the opposition thought that they could participate in a legitimate electoral process, they would have done so.
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 11:51:30 That having been said, I dont think anyone here is a fan of using US military force to topple Maduro's government. On the other hand, if Russia starts pulling shit and sends mercs/disguised troops to Venezuela, that should be considered a blatant violation of the Monroe Doctrine and responded to accordingly. His shenanigans in Syria and Ukraine absolutely cannot be tolerated in the Western Hempishere.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 11:59:41 Ruggy Its because they would win free and fair elections. Brand name recognition and high low income voter mobilization. Venezuela is under US embargo. Of course its economy sucks. Which gives a schadenfreude element amongst US voters you are very familiar with (fuck trump sucks....but I can subsist off liberal tears in lieu of meaningful political commitment. In venezuela it is subsisting off Yankee and upper class tears). The Monroe doctrine died when Nato expanded into Eastern Europe. You may want to note that down for future reference.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 12:00:20 Which gives a schadenfreude element amongst Venezuelan voters*
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Jan 29 12:07:48 http://gra...reated-venezuelas-coup-leader/
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 12:15:47 Jergul, "Venezuela is under US embargo." Why do you always insist on being so intellectually dishonest? Sanctions have had an aggravating effect; they are not the cause of Venezuela's economic implosion. We can gladly compare timelines if you want, but I'm not accepting the utterance of this argument again. "Its because they would win free and fair elections. Brand name recognition and high low income voter mobilization." Low income voter mobilization which is widely reported to be prompted with state bribery. Claiming Maduro is a defender of democracy is an absolute joke.
Rugian Member	Tue Jan 29 12:17:13 I swear, comments in threads like this one have me convinced that no one has any memory of any political event beyond what has been spun in the news in the last 48 hours.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Jan 29 12:27:44 "Can you tell us in what ways Guaidó is a "rightist", " elliott and benjamin endorse him.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 13:17:45 Ruggy "Claiming Maduro is a defender of democracy is an absolute joke" I never said you claimed that. Venezuela's recession began the same year sanctions began, though you can trace the underlying weakness to the 2008 global recession caused by the United States. Let Venezuela do its politics according to its own constitutional rules. Try to be a bit better at understanding the importance of integrity. Be it of State or of the individual. It might help you avoid becoming a big government hack.
jergul large member	Tue Jan 29 13:25:04 Anyway, Here are some of the lobbyists who somehow got Trump's attention: http://www...efugees-bonds-maduro-1.4807633 While we wait with baited breath for the US to appoint an interim president in Saudi Arabia.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Jan 29 14:08:21 "So you are on record supporting regime change? " Yup. Maduro has reached the point on the stupidity chart where killing him is the best choice.
obaminated Member	Tue Jan 29 16:18:59 a war to do that will probably cost a few hundred lives in americans, lets say a thousand suffer injuries, can't really estimate the financial cost of it but let's say 10 billion. Is that really worth helping out people who have no connection to us and have no relation to us? I can see logic for that if it was Britain, France, or Canada in that situation. Not sure why our neighbors should be put into risk to protect Venezuelans.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jan 29 16:33:20 Unit cost for AGM Hellfire is just over $100k. But open that door and the Clinton-wing of the Ds will be droning Assad and every other secular leader in the ME the second they take office.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Jan 29 16:50:51 John Bolton‏Verified account @AmbJohnBolton Follow Follow @AmbJohnBolton  More We denounce the illegitimate former Venezuelan Attorney General's threats against President Juan Guaido. Let me reiterate - there will be serious consequences for those who attempt to subvert democracy and harm Guaido. 10:59 AM - 29 Jan 2019
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 29 17:00:48 Rugian's a fucking idiot as always. Nothing he said has any bearing on what I said. No democrat has ever even remotely considered regime-change in Venezuela. Hillary talked tough but she never would've done anything. Now we have this washed up Bush lackey Bolton in charge and he's stationed thousands of Americans nearby and is threatening war? And now Rugian and the other cuckservatives fall in line? Dafuq? We don't even need Venezuelan oil. Let the shitbag country implode.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jan 29 17:01:59 Which is to say you fucking idiots have no coherent ideology at all. You just follow in lockstep with what Fox News and their ilk tell you.
Rugian Member	Wed Jan 30 09:20:29 Dukhat Member Tue Jan 29 17:00:48 "Rugian's a fucking idiot as always. Nothing he said has any bearing on what I said. ... Now we have this washed up Bush lackey Bolton in charge and he's stationed thousands of Americans nearby and is threatening war? And now Rugian and the other cuckservatives fall in line?" Rugian Member Tue Jan 29 11:51:30 "That having been said, I dont think anyone here is a fan of using US military force to topple Maduro's government." Dunning-Kruger effect on full display.
Hrothgar Member	Wed Jan 30 09:48:12 imo it's more evidence that democracy can't function within an entirely socialist structure. To many of the educated/competent/expecting a stable financial life types bail as they see their hard work stripped away. We're not talking about elites here, but what would be called "middle class". Social structures can exist very well in a democracy. But Democracy doesn't work under a heavily socialist government.
Dukhat Member	Wed Jan 30 10:47:58 "His shenanigans in Syria and Ukraine absolutely cannot be tolerated in the Western Hempishere." Syria and Ukraine are far more proximate to our interests than fucking Venezuela. Middle East oil is way more important than Venezuelan oil. Europe is way more important than South America. Somehow the brown people in Venezuela suddenly merit your attention when you have a history of hating anything to do with them elsewhere. The right-wing media complex is real. They are pushing the idea of intervention and you guys swallow it whole.
obaminated Member	Wed Jan 30 11:07:01 Who do you mean by "you guys" ? The only person on this board who has stated they want military action is SA. And jergul, but that is because he is a paid propagandist for Russia and will ignore the fact that Russia has already sent mercs to put down resistance to Maduro becoming a dictator. Not because he is falling into the "right wing media complex"
jergul large member	Wed Jan 30 12:28:09 Obam You are such a hack. Of course this is a great chance for Russia to expand its influence in a cost effective manner. Venezuela has all the markers of civil war except mass destruction of infrastructure (with crime taking the role of political violence). I am not sure Russia will opt for it. Libya is another possible country for that kind of gambit. "Regime change" does need to mean overt military action. See early US regime change policies in Syria as an example.
Forwyn Member	Wed Jan 30 13:53:01 "Syria [is] far more proximate to our interests than fucking Venezuela. Middle East oil is way more important than Venezuelan oil." Not that I care for intervention, but this is retarded. It would be true if we were having this discussion from the EU, but Syrian oil is utterly irrelevant to the US, like Iranian oil. You ever filled up at Citgo?
Dukhat Member	Wed Jan 30 16:43:16 Syria is right next to all the important oil. That's why we keep getting fucking involved in the middle east. I'd rather us never get involved again but Rugian playing the, "Oh it fits our interest because Monroe Doctrine" card is bullshit. South And Middle America do no matter. We shouldn't ever intervene again (though we should actually act like we will because that's what having a big army/navy is all about).
Dukhat Member	Wed Jan 30 19:00:34 do not* matter
Y2A Member	Wed Jan 30 23:14:36 Maduro created the first parallel institution by striping the National Assembly of its power and creating his own "Constituent Assembly". What goes around comes around.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 31 01:59:43 Y2A What part of that are you thinking is unconstitutional? Knowing as we know that the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbitrator of constitutionality. I would have agreed with you if the Supreme Court had continued to take it upon itself the wield the power of the National Assembly. But it reversed that ruling quickly.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jan 31 10:31:48 Has there ever been a dictator that jergul hasnt defended blindly?
obaminated Member	Thu Jan 31 11:00:47 It is pretty amazing to watch. As I said, he is likely paid by Russia to expose talking points or a complete troll. No one who has lived in the west would be so blindly pro-dictatorship. Which jergul has been for at least the past decade.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 31 11:30:22 Obam I pity the poverty you must live in to think posting on the internet is a worthwhile job. Sammy I think Venezuela should play by its constitutional rules and hold a snap election as soon as possible (within a couple months). I have nothing against Palestinian style civil disobedience to reach that goal. The only thing heavy-handed US involvement might secure is Russia turning Venezuela into yet another frozen conflict.
obaminated Member	Thu Jan 31 12:23:03 What an odd way to do a non denial. Do the Russians not pay you well?
Dukhat Member	Thu Jan 31 15:07:34 I was wondering why the hell cuckservatives all of a sudden care about Venezuela and the politico article made sense of it. It’s just shameless demagougery for the latino vote in Florida. Right-wing media latched onto it and our new Fox News regurgitator Rugian took over for Hot Rod.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 31 15:16:50 Obam What would a denial be worth? My thesis is the same as 20 years ago. A country's affairs are its own affair. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Also, do you think I meant this "Russia turning Venezuela into yet another frozen conflict" as a compliment?
LazyCommunist Member	Thu Jan 31 15:35:08 You won't see this on Fox News http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU_xg68iSFU Appeal of Nicholas Maduro to the people of the USA (subtitled)
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Feb 01 08:58:58 CatoTheYounger‏ @catoletters Follow Follow @catoletters  More Wonder if Nuland has already hired her rooftop snipers for VZ. It worked in Ukraine. Or maybe Guaido's daughter can testify about babies being tossed from incubators? Powell guest appearance with Yellow Cake? White Helmets with Chem Weapons bleach "samples" and film 6:45 AM - 1 Feb 2019
Sam Adams Member	Fri Feb 01 12:11:06 Hey, at least the socialists in venezuala have engineered a solution to their formet stray pet problem.
jergul large member	Fri Feb 01 12:47:17 Sammy lol. The final solution to the kitten question.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Feb 01 15:52:39 Twitter Bans 2,000 Pro-Maduro Accounts As Demands For Regime Change Escalate http://www...demands-regime-change-escalate
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Feb 07 13:35:34 Trish Regan ✔ @trish_regan .@SecPompeo confirms to me exclusively that #Hezbollah is active in #venezuela - WATCH: 4,046 8:32 PM - Feb 6, 2019
Pillz Member	Thu Feb 07 19:16:29 Lol
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