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Utopia Talk / Politics / Do men really have it easier?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Feb 04 12:47:41
In the 1990s, the late Stanford neuroscientist Ben Barres transitioned from female to male. He was in his 40s, mid-career, and afterward he marveled at the stark changes in his professional life. Now that society saw him as male, his ideas were taken more seriously. He was able to complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man. A colleague who didn’t know he was transgender even praised his work as “much better than his sister’s.”

Clinics have reported an increase in people seeking medical gender transitions in recent years, and research suggests the number of people identifying as transgender has risen in the past decade. Touchstones such as Caitlyn Jenner’s transition, the bathroom controversy, and the Amazon series “Transparent” have also made the topic a bigger part of the political and cultural conversation.

But it is not always evident when someone has undergone a transition — especially if they have gone from female to male.

“The transgender guys have a relatively straightforward process — we just simply add testosterone and watch their bodies shift,” said Joshua Safer, executive director at the Center for Transgender Medicine and Surgery at Mount Sinai Health System and Icahn School of Medicine in New York. “Within six months to a year they start to virilize — getting facial hair, a ruddier complexion, a change in body odor and a deepening of the voice.”

Transgender women have more difficulty “passing”; they tend to be bigger-boned and more masculine-looking, and these things are hard to reverse with hormone treatments, Safer said. “But the transgender men will go get jobs and the new boss doesn’t even know they’re trans.”

We spoke with four men who transitioned as adults to the bodies in which they feel more comfortable. Their experiences reveal that the gulf between how society treats women and men is in many ways as wide now as it was when Barres transitioned. But their diverse backgrounds provide further insight into how race and ethnicity inform the gender divide in subtle and sometimes surprising ways.

(Their words have been lightly edited for space and clarity.)

‘I’ll never call the police again’
Trystan Cotten, 50, Berkeley, Calif.

Professor of gender studies at California State University Stanislaus and editor of Transgress Press, which publishes books related to the transgender experience. Transitioned in 2008.

Life doesn’t get easier as an African American male. The way that police officers deal with me, the way that racism undermines my ability to feel safe in the world, affects my mobility, affects where I go. Other African American and Latino Americans grew up as boys and were taught to deal with that at an earlier age. I had to learn from my black and brown brothers about how to stay alive in my new body and retain some dignity while being demeaned by the cops.

One night somebody crashed a car into my neighbor’s house, and I called 911. I walk out to talk to the police officer, and he pulls a gun on me and says, “Stop! Stop! Get on the ground!” I turn around to see if there’s someone behind me, and he goes, “You! You! Get on the ground!” I’m in pajamas and barefoot. I get on the ground and he checks me, and afterward I said, “What was that all about?” He said, “You were moving kind of funny.” Later, people told me, “Man, you’re crazy. You never call the police.”

I get pulled over a lot more now. I got pulled over more in the first two years after my transition than I did the entire 20 years I was driving before that. Before, when I’d been stopped, even for real violations like driving 100 miles an hour, I got off. In fact, when it happened in Atlanta the officer and I got into a great conversation about the Braves. Now the first two questions they ask are: Do I have any weapons in the car, and am I on parole or probation?

Race influences how people choose to transition. I did an ethnographic study of trans men and found that 96 percent of African American and Latino men want to have surgery, while only 45 percent of white respondents do. That’s because a trans history can exacerbate racial profiling. When they pat you down, if you don’t have a penis it’s going to be obvious (or if you’re a trans woman and you have a penis, that becomes obvious). If they picked you up for popping a wheelie or smoking weed, if they find out you’re trans it can be worse for you.

There are also ways in which men deal with sexism and gender oppression that I was not aware of when I was walking around in a female body. A couple of years after my transition, I had a grad student I’d been mentoring. She started coming on to me, stalking me, sending me emails and texts. My adviser and the dean — both women — laughed it off. It went on for the better part of a year, and that was the year that I was going up for tenure. It was a very scary time. I felt very worried that if the student felt I was not returning her attentions she would claim that I had assaulted her. I felt like as a guy, I was not taken seriously. I had experienced harassment as a female person at another university and they had reacted immediately, sending a police escort with me to and from campus. I felt like if I had still been in my old body I would have gotten a lot more support.

Being a black man has changed the way I move in the world. I used to walk quickly or run to catch a bus. Now I walk at a slower pace, and if I’m late I don’t dare rush. I am hyper-aware of making sudden or abrupt movements, especially in airports, train stations and other public places. I avoid engaging with unfamiliar white folks, especially white women. If they catch my eye, white women usually clutch their purses and cross the street. While I love urban aesthetics, I stopped wearing hoodies and traded my baggy jeans, oversized jerseys and colorful skullcaps for closefitting jeans, khakis and sweaters. These changes blunt assumptions that I’m going to snatch purses or merchandise, or jump the subway turnstile. The less visible I am, the better my chances of surviving.

But it’s not foolproof. I’m an academic sitting at a desk so I exercise where I can. I walked to the post office to mail some books and I put on this 40-pound weight vest that I walk around in. It was about 3 or 4 in the afternoon and I’m walking back and all of a sudden police officers drove up, got out of their car, and stopped. I had my earphones on so I didn’t know they were talking to me. I looked up and there’s a helicopter above. And now I can kind of see why people run, because you might live if you run, even if you haven’t done anything. This was in Emeryville, one of the wealthiest enclaves in Northern California, where there’s security galore. Someone had seen me walking to the post office and called in and said they saw a Muslim with an explosives vest. One cop, a white guy, picked it up and laughed and said, “Oh, I think I know what this is. This is a weight belt.”

It’s not only humiliating, but it creates anxiety on a daily basis. Before, I used to feel safe going up to a police officer if I was lost or needed directions. But I don’t do that anymore. I hike a lot, and if I’m out hiking and I see a dead body, I’ll keep on walking. I’ll never call the police again.

‘It now feels as though I am on my own’
Zander Keig, 52, San Diego

Coast Guard veteran. Works at Naval Medical Center San Diego as a clinical social work case manager. Editor of anthologies about transgender men. Started transition in 2005.

Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.” Never mind that I am a first-generation Mexican American, a transsexual man, and married to the same woman I was with prior to my transition.

I find the assertion that I am now unable to speak out on issues I find important offensive and I refuse to allow anyone to silence me. My ability to empathize has grown exponentially, because I now factor men into my thinking and feeling about situations. Prior to my transition, I rarely considered how men experienced life or what they thought, wanted or liked about their lives. I have learned so much about the lives of men through my friendships with men, reading books and articles by and for men and through the men I serve as a licensed clinical social worker.

Social work is generally considered to be “female dominated,” with women making up about 80 percent of the profession in the United States. Currently I work exclusively with clinical nurse case managers, but in my previous position, as a medical social worker working with chronically homeless military veterans — mostly male — who were grappling with substance use disorder and severe mental illness, I was one of a few men among dozens of women.

Plenty of research shows that life events, medical conditions and family circumstances impact men and women differently. But when I would suggest that patient behavioral issues like anger or violence may be a symptom of trauma or depression, it would often get dismissed or outright challenged. The overarching theme was “men are violent” and there was “no excuse” for their actions.

I do notice that some women do expect me to acquiesce or concede to them more now: Let them speak first, let them board the bus first, let them sit down first, and so on. I also notice that in public spaces men are more collegial with me, which they express through verbal and nonverbal messages: head lifting when passing me on the sidewalk and using terms like “brother” and “boss man” to acknowledge me. As a former lesbian feminist, I was put off by the way that some women want to be treated by me, now that I am a man, because it violates a foundational belief I carry, which is that women are fully capable human beings who do not need men to acquiesce or concede to them.

What continues to strike me is the significant reduction in friendliness and kindness now extended to me in public spaces. It now feels as though I am on my own: No one, outside of family and close friends, is paying any attention to my well-being.

I can recall a moment where this difference hit home. A couple of years into my medical gender transition, I was traveling on a public bus early one weekend morning. There were six people on the bus, including me. One was a woman. She was talking on a mobile phone very loudly and remarked that “men are such a–holes.” I immediately looked up at her and then around at the other men. Not one had lifted his head to look at the woman or anyone else. The woman saw me look at her and then commented to the person she was speaking with about “some a–hole on the bus right now looking at me.” I was stunned, because I recall being in similar situations, but in the reverse, many times: A man would say or do something deemed obnoxious or offensive, and I would find solidarity with the women around me as we made eye contact, rolled our eyes and maybe even commented out loud on the situation. I’m not sure I understand why the men did not respond, but it made a lasting impression on me.

‘I took control of my career’
Chris Edwards, 49, Boston

Advertising creative director, public speaker and author of the memoir “Balls: It Takes Some to Get Some.” Transitioned in his mid-20s.

When I began my transition at age 26, a lot of my socialization came from the guys at work. For example, as a woman, I’d walk down the hall and bump into some of my female co-workers, and they’d say, “Hey, what’s up?” and I’d say, “Oh, I just got out of this client meeting. They killed all my scripts and now I have to go back and rewrite everything, blah blah blah. What’s up with you?” and then they’d tell me their stories. As a guy, I bump into a guy in the hall and he says, “What’s up?” and I launch into a story about my day and he’s already down the hall. And I’m thinking, well, that’s rude. So, I think, okay, well, I guess guys don’t really share, so next time I’ll keep it brief. By the third time, I realized you just nod.

The creative department is largely male, and the guys accepted me into the club. I learned by example and modeled my professional behavior accordingly. For example, I kept noticing that if guys wanted an assignment they’d just ask for it. If they wanted a raise or a promotion they’d ask for it. This was a foreign concept to me. As a woman, I never felt that it was polite to do that or that I had the power to do that. But after seeing it happen all around me I decided that if I felt I deserved something I was going to ask for it too. By doing that, I took control of my career. It was very empowering.

Apparently, people were only holding the door for me because I was a woman rather than out of common courtesy as I had assumed. Not just men, women too. I learned this the first time I left the house presenting as male, when a woman entered a department store in front of me and just let the door swing shut behind her. I was so caught off guard I walked into it face first.

When you’re socially transitioning, you want to blend in, not stand out, so it’s uncomfortable when little reminders pop up that you’re not like everybody else. I’m expected to know everything about sports. I like sports but I’m not in deep like a lot of guys. For example, I love watching football, but I never played the sport (wasn’t an option for girls back in my day) so there is a lot I don’t know. I remember the first time I was in a wedding as a groomsman. I was maybe three years into my transition and I was lined up for photos with all the other guys. And one of them shouted, “High school football pose!” and on cue everybody dropped down and squatted like the offensive line, and I was like, what the hell is going on? It was not instinctive to me since I never played. I tried to mirror what everyone was doing, but when you see the picture I’m kind of “offsides,” so to speak.

The hormones made me more impatient. I had lots of female friends and one of the qualities they loved about me was that I was a great listener. After being on testosterone, they informed me that my listening skills weren’t what they used to be. Here’s an example: I’m driving with one of my best friends, Beth, and I ask her “Is your sister meeting us for dinner?” Ten minutes later she’s still talking and I still have no idea if her sister is coming. So finally, I couldn’t take it anymore, and I snapped and said, “IS SHE COMING OR NOT?” And Beth was like, “You know, you used to like hearing all the backstory and how I’d get around to the answer. A lot of us have noticed you’ve become very impatient lately and we think it’s that damn testosterone!” It’s definitely true that some male behavior is governed by hormones. Instead of listening to a woman’s problem and being empathetic and nodding along, I would do the stereotypical guy thing — interrupt and provide a solution to cut the conversation short and move on. I’m trying to be better about this.

People ask if being a man made me more successful in my career. My answer is yes — but not for the reason you might think. As a man, I was finally comfortable in my own skin and that made me more confident. At work I noticed I was more direct: getting to the point, not apologizing before I said anything or tiptoeing around and trying to be delicate like I used to do. In meetings, I was more outspoken. I stopped posing my thoughts as questions. I’d say what I meant and what I wanted to happen instead of dropping hints and hoping people would read between the lines and pick up on what I really wanted. I was no longer shy about stating my opinions or defending my work. When I gave presentations I was brighter, funnier, more engaging. Not because I was a man. Because I was happy.

‘People assume I know the answer’
Alex Poon, 26, Boston

Project manager for Wayfair, an online home goods company. Alex is in the process of his physical transition; he did the chest surgery after college and started taking testosterone this spring.

Traditional Chinese culture is about conforming to your elders’ wishes and staying within gender boundaries. However, I grew up in the U.S., where I could explore my individuality and my own gender identity. When I was 15 I was attending an all-girls high school where we had to wear skirts, but I felt different from my peers. Around that point we began living with my Chinese grandfather towards the end of his life. He was so traditional and deeply set in his ways. I felt like I couldn’t cut my hair or dress how I wanted because I was afraid to upset him and have our last memories of each other be ruined.

Genetics are not in my favor for growing a lumberjack-style beard. Sometimes, Chinese faces are seen as “soft” with less defined jaw lines and a lack of facial fair. I worry that some of my feminine features like my “soft face” will make it hard to present as a masculine man, which is how I see myself. Instead, when people meet me for the first time, I’m often read as an effeminate man.

My voice has started cracking and becoming lower. Recently, I’ve been noticing the difference between being perceived as a woman versus being perceived as a man. I’ve been wondering how I can strike the right balance between remembering how it feels to be silenced and talked over with the privileges that come along with being perceived as a man. Now, when I lead meetings, I purposefully create pauses and moments where I try to draw others into the conversation and make space for everyone to contribute and ask questions.

People now assume I have logic, advice and seniority. They look at me and assume I know the answer, even when I don’t. I’ve been in meetings where everyone else in the room was a woman and more senior, yet I still got asked, “Alex, what do you think? We thought you would know.” I was at an all-team meeting with 40 people, and I was recognized by name for my team’s accomplishments. Whereas next to me, there was another successful team led by a woman, but she was never mentioned by name. I went up to her afterward and said, “Wow, that was not cool; your team actually did more than my team.” The stark difference made me feel uncomfortable and brought back feelings of when I had been in the same boat and not been given credit for my work.

When people thought I was a woman, they often gave me vague or roundabout answers when I asked a question. I’ve even had someone tell me, “If you just Googled it, you would know.” But now that I’m read as a man, I’ve found people give me direct and clear answers, even if it means they have to do some research on their own before getting back to me.

A part of me regrets not sharing with my grandfather who I truly am before he passed away. I wonder how our relationship might have been different if he had known this one piece about me and had still accepted me as his grandson. Traditionally, Chinese culture sees men as more valuable than women. Before, I was the youngest granddaughter, so the least important. Now, I’m the oldest grandson. I think about how he might have had different expectations or tried to instill certain traditional Chinese principles upon me more deeply, such as caring more about my grades or taking care of my siblings and elders. Though he never viewed me as a man, I ended up doing these things anyway.

Zander Keig contributed to this article in his personal capacity. The opinions expressed in this are the author’s own and do not reflect the view of the Department of Defense.

http://www...rect=on&utm_term=.f241718bab12
Nekran
Member
Mon Feb 04 22:08:43
"Do men really have it easier?"

Generally, yes? That's what I got from this piece, anyways. Unless you think random small talk with strangers and having doors held open for you are more important than being taken seriously.

Only the racism that is alive and well apparently affects black men in some ways that it does not affect black women. I guess random physical violence by strangers might affect men more than women in general.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Feb 04 23:56:08
No shit sherlock. Though the richness of human experience nowadays is often about much more than just your gender anyways ... at least if you mainly interact with educated people.
hood
Member
Tue Feb 05 00:45:44
""Do men really have it easier?"

Generally, yes? That's what I got from this piece, anyways."

Depends on how easy you find being extremely marginalized and alone to be. Not everything in life is better jobs and more money.
Nekran
Member
Tue Feb 05 07:54:22
You think men are extremely marginalized?

I definitely don't experience this. And I didn't read it in this piece either.

What I read was mostly that there are less random positive interactions with strangers. I don't value those as much as being taken seriously by the people I do interact with, no.

The only story that felt like their life was properly worse as a man than as a woman, was the first one.
hood
Member
Tue Feb 05 08:33:11
"You think men are extremely marginalized?"

Did we read different articles?

First account:
"A couple of years after my transition, I had a grad student I’d been mentoring. She started coming on to me, stalking me, sending me emails and texts. My adviser and the dean — both women — laughed it off."

Second account:
"Prior to my transition, I was an outspoken radical feminist. I spoke up often, loudly and with confidence. I was encouraged to speak up. I was given awards for my efforts, literally — it was like, “Oh, yeah, speak up, speak out.” When I speak up now, I am often given the direct or indirect message that I am “mansplaining,” “taking up too much space” or “asserting my white male heterosexual privilege.”"

More from second account:
"when I would suggest that patient behavioral issues like anger or violence may be a symptom of trauma or depression, it would often get dismissed or outright challenged. The overarching theme was “men are violent” and there was “no excuse” for their actions."

Third account:
"And Beth was like, “You know, you used to like hearing all the backstory and how I’d get around to the answer. A lot of us have noticed you’ve become very impatient lately and we think it’s that damn testosterone!”"
(This is a slight stretch, but completely ignoring another person's feelings/thoughts I'd still marginalization)


Perhaps you don't understand the definition of marginalization, should I mansplain it for ya?


Also:
"The only story that felt like their life was properly worse as a man than as a woman, was the first one."

Indeed, completely marginalizing many of the side effects these people saw after their transition. You make my point well. Men are often marginalized. Their problems are seen as minimal or easily overcome. The only issue worth your notice was that black guys are viewed as criminals. Marginalization.
Nekran
Member
Tue Feb 05 08:49:49
It was mostly the fearing the police thing, yes. That really upsets your worldview, when they used to be there to protect you.


The stalking story is very undetailed... either that dean and adviser suck ass, either the stalking is exaggerated. Stalking by e-mails and texts also seems so easy to prove.

The second account... they do not let themselves be silenced and they speak out for their beliefs.

That they know people with contrary beliefs who also speak out for them, does not equate to marginalization to me, no.

The third one is just people being people, imo.


I'll admit, I've probably considered things purely from my own pov too much, though. The police one was the only thing that seemed shocking to me personally. I can see how other people could look at these things very differently. "Extremely marginalized" still sounds like a very heavy conclusion to me though.
Nekran
Member
Tue Feb 05 08:56:34
"You make my point well. Men are often marginalized. Their problems are seen as minimal or easily overcome."

I'd argue that that is the case for all people. Other people's problems usually seem so much easier to overcome than your own.

I'll be the first to admit that this is complete bullshit of which I am also guilty, no doubt. Probably right here once more... Probably these negative effects they experience in their lives as men compared to their lives as women are indeed more relevant than they seem to me.

We all get formed by our own experiences.

Out of genuine interest, do you read this article and feel like their lives were generally better as females than as males?
hood
Member
Tue Feb 05 09:09:27
"The police one was the only thing that seemed shocking to me personally"

Definitely. To be afraid to call the police is absolutely horrible, unacceptable.


"The stalking story is very undetailed... either that dean and adviser suck ass, either the stalking is exaggerated. Stalking by e-mails and texts also seems so easy to prove."

But see, here you are marginalizing it again. You are deeming it not that big a deal, even though this person felt it a big enough deal to actually discuss. It bothered them to the point that they went to an authority for assistance. And both their and your response is "meh..." That is marginalization.


"they do not let themselves be silenced and they speak out for their beliefs."

Which is certainly good. But people speaking out for themselves isn't at issue. The reaction to their speech is where they might be marginalized. And as we see, the reactions were that they "mamsplained" or asserting privilege or just plain in the way. That's very marginalizing. It's that brand of "you're literally worthless, why bother?" that drives weaker egos to the misogyny side of things.


"The third one is just people being people, imo."

To an extent, yeah. That's why I said it was a stretch. But at the same time, this Beth friend is completely ignoring the person Chris had become. She's not bothering to consider the new perspective and instead focusing on herself. "You've become less attractive to me" (for definitions of attractive that aren't related to physical appearance). Or, "you've become less useful to me."


""Extremely marginalized" still sounds like a very heavy conclusion to me though."

Do we not all exaggerate a tad from time to time? The overarching point is that there were entire aspects of existence that became devalued, worth less, to these people. And if you've never had to deal with being taken seriously when a woman is sexually harassing you as a guy, it is pretty fucking frustrating. Having your opinion completely discounted because of your gender is frustrating. Being considered a criminal (both the black guy and the "men are just violent" story) because of your gender is frustrating.

None of this is to take away from anything women deal with. Both can exist. Both do exist.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Feb 05 09:39:58
http://dai...KEDh6dWhP6tcEpkDdBhWIfQGAFwVdI

Deondre Francois’ Ex-GF Says She Faked Domestic Violence Video Because She Wanted Attention
TJ
Member
Tue Feb 05 09:44:43
Scrambled eggs...
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Feb 05 09:48:59
Woman ‘with psychiatric problems set fire to Paris apartment block, killing ten people, after arguing with fireman about her playing loud music’
Seb
Member
Tue Feb 05 09:49:39
In which Nim discovers intersectionality.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 10:04:16
>>I definitely don't experience this. And I didn't read it in this piece either.<<

And we all know that we personally do not notice things then they don’t exist. But more importantly, having lived only as one sex, what do you have to compare with?

So these stories and experiences that people who transition and can go unnoticed (all the people in the article look like ordinary men and can’t be identified as anything else on the surface) are important to provide nuance. I have been listening to them for years, starting with their reports on how their mood and behavior changed after taking testosterone.

It is interesting then that what I tool away from the srticle was, ”it isn’t that simple”, and yours was, nope. I don’t participate in your gender war, life is neither better or worse as either sex, it is just different.
Nekran
Member
Tue Feb 05 10:20:06
"I don’t participate in your gender war, life is neither better or worse as either sex, it is just different."

Yeah, I'm really not invested in any sort of "war".

Your stance is definitely defensible in the rich parts of the world nowadays. Only since very recently though.

I do think men generally still have it noticably better than women. But it's balancing out and I do agree that apart from encouraing this balancing, we should beware not to do it by tipping things into the other direction.

I really dislike the laws that state at least 50% of women have to be up for election for every party or board sin large companies having to exist of a certain percnetage of women (not a thing here, but I think this law does exist in Sweden or Norway... I dunno and I'm not googling it atm).

Though I do understand the problem with people being kept out of positions by the powers that be. I just refuse to accept "counter-discrimination" as a valid way to solve the problem.

I really don't consider myself a soldier in any gender war, in any case.

I just do feel, when reading these stories, but also in general in my own experience, that the pros of manhood still tend to outweigh the cons.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 11:40:10
The article is in the rich parts of the world, and ”feminism” the type that we often debate here and many of us detest is exclusive to the rich parts of the world. But even in the shitty parts of the world life is generally shitty, with men doing all the dangerous jobs, dying early, being more prone to die violent deaths, a slew of cognitive disease etc. With women in general being held back, but also protected from danger. Basically treated like children. Is that better or worse? Well it depends doesn’t it? I believe giving equal opportunity is better for _everyone_ and for society as a whole, but some men and women (important) prefer the former. And they both partake in maintaining those types of cultures. How much better off is an male Afghan farmer than his wife? Insignificantly.

I mean we can talk about risks, outcomes and the reasons behind them, but taken as a whole my conclusions is that life isn’t easier or great just because you have a penis and a beard. There are benefits and drawbacks for both men and women. I don’t have any idea how easy or tough my life is relative to people with comparable ability and opportunity, my conclusion is based on data and studies. I try not to make general statements based on my own experience.

Fair enough, I shouldn’t seb you :-)

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 11:49:17
Why I said the ”gender war” thing, because last time I was talking about this subject with jergul or seb I said something like,

”Here are things men excel at, rape, physics, murdering, engineering, suicide... ” etc

You responded with ”what a crappy sales pitch”.

Indeed, it wasn’t a sales pitch, it was the highs and lows of males, men are not ”better”. It was aimed at jergul at the time (but also seb believes this), who thinks the shitty things are inherent to males, but that ”good stuff” is undeserved. Cookie cutter feminist POV. So I may have mistaken you for that.
TJ
Member
Tue Feb 05 11:53:37
Social stratification can be both a beast and a blessing of nature and it's propagation is a formidable and indefatigable adversary. We are one human race speeding toward self destruction, which is a far worse outcome than our differences. I'd prefer going peacefully.

Collectively ignorance is well distributed throughout the populations at all levels of intelligence. One could even say evenly, but differently. Propagation isn't bound to the reproduction of the species, it is also in all forms of expression.

Everyone will be gasping for that last breath of life when the final time arrives.
Nekran
Member
Tue Feb 05 11:55:53
In your defense, I don't post here that often anymore, but when I do I often just make a small comment on some line that caught my eye and made me want to response.

I don't remember that exchange, but it does sound like me. I can see how you'd mistake me for being part of the war.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 14:53:15
>>Seb
Member Tue Feb 05 09:49:39
In which Nim discovers intersectionality.<<

I think you need to realize, at some point, a critical thing about grievance studies conspiracy theories in general. A good conspiracy theory besides evoking strong negative emotions, has a kernel of truth in it. You know, Jews ARE overrepresented in media and finance, the USA HAS conducted false flag operations to start wars. Minorities DO suffer racism. All of these things are true, but it doesn't follow that Jews control the world, that 9/11 was an false flag to attack Iraq, or that the intersectionality is a meaningful explanatory theory for anything.
Seb
Member
Tue Feb 05 16:17:31
Correction: in which Nim discovers intersectionality, but does not recognise it because he has built up a straw man of what he thinks it is. Hilarity ensures as our hero continues to tilt at windmills.
Seb
Member
Tue Feb 05 16:20:37
"This thing I have now documented and invite you all to consider, should not be cited as an example of a phenomenology because I don't like it, instead it should be considered a mere kernel of truth in a conspiracy theory."
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 16:44:23
I invited you to read personal experiences to provide nuance, not weave conspiracy theories. That is the difference between reading subjective experiences from a unique perspective for what it is and fabricating conspiracy theories about oppression and go full SJW. Swoosh! Had I been you I would be half way into the oppression Olympics based on these stories.

At some point seb, but not today.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Feb 05 16:45:30
On or off. Black or white. 1 or 0. All muslims all the time.

Good old seb.
Seb
Member
Tue Feb 05 17:12:18
Nim, you posted a number of case studies that exactly describe how mixes of privelege, prejudices and discrimination interact to very different experiences.

This is what is known as intersectionality, something you describe as "victim studies", have dismissed as nonsense.

What, exactly, is the conspiracy theory you think I'm pedaling?

Because it seems to me you are engaging in a straw man argument again.

"On or off. Black or white. 1 or 0."
The very opposite off what I'm arguing. And hilarious given the implication you appear to be making is that these anecdotes demonstrate that because individual experiences may vary (particularly when multiple characteristics are in play) this demonstrates in some way that feminist discourse (for example) is oversimplified when you have previously dismissed their discussions of this very complexity.

The simple fact is you've discovered a line of thinking that is pretty mature area of gender studies, but don't recognise it as such because it doesn't conform to *your* simplified view of the field.

So yay: you've discovered intersectionality. You just haven't realised it.

jergul
large member
Tue Feb 05 18:51:37
Hood
Not that you should or would care what I think. But nice posts on male marginalization.

It offered me some food for thought.
hood
Member
Tue Feb 05 20:56:32
Thank you, jergul.

Once or twice a year I make a point beyond "y'all suck." But now I'm drained.

Y'all suck.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Feb 06 00:54:13
Seb
There is a reason why ”sebbing” is a phrase on UP, because you don’t pay attention to what people say. The months pass and your sebbed understanding remains and in your head, you are right all along.

My take on the article is contained in my exchange with Nekran. It is the complete opposite of the feminist narrative or anything out of a greivence study. There is no matrix of oppression and subjective experiences is one stream of knowledge.
Seb
Member
Wed Feb 06 01:26:59
Nim:

Yes. I read your exchange with nekran.
No, it doesn't alter anything I've said.

You've discovered intersectionality.

But you don't recognise the resonances with gender studies because you've got cartoonishly simplistic view of what thats all about, informed entirely from rhetoric by those politically opposed to it.

It's like someone who got their entire understanding of climate sciences from the perspective of the heartlands institute
discovered a particularly accessible bit of climate research and then thought it must be different from climate science because they clearly weren't Chinese socialists hell bent on deindustrializing the West.





Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Feb 06 01:30:39
Jergul
Thank you btw, I am noting what you say in this thread down together with what you said about large numbers. For some people data and stats are not convincing, they need analysis of personal stories.

Here is a conversation I had on larger numbers recently with a female collegue. She was talking about the 17 women getting killed by their men every year. SEVENTEEN! She said. (Out of the 120 murdered people each year, and 24 women in total). I uped her with an unfathomable number. 50 (out 55) men die on their work place each year. FIFTY! I said. We had an interesting conversation about numbers.

Those men die pretty much unnoticed by the rest of society. There are no fundraisers or awareness days, no celebrities in ads talking about the ”noble and selfless sacrifice” of men to provide for their children and wives, preforming dangerous and risky jobs.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Feb 06 01:40:34
Seb
I would pretty much describe your understanding of the subject the same way. We won’t get any further because pne of us can only hold one thought in his head at a time. I have tried to explain this to you several times, that I concentrate on problems because that is who I am, I want to make things better. To the extent that the concepts in feminist theory are valid they are completely undermined by a total lack of view point diversity and quantitative data. In general most of the studies from these fields can be described as:
1. Pose a hypothesis
2. Treat it like a conclusion
3. Publish paper

Together with an almost complete insularity from data put out from other fields, it is these fatal flaws that makes hoax papers possible.

I promise you, I have read more such studies and field analysis than you have read the titles of in gizmodo articles :)
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