Utopia Talk / Politics / Awesome Japan!

Average Ameriacn Member	Mon Feb 11 16:05:58 Cut off their balls! http://www...rilization-requirement-n962721 Japan's Supreme Court upholds transgender sterilization requirement Those who wish to change their gender on official documents must have their original reproductive organs removed, according to the 2004 law. Japan’s Supreme Court has upheld a law that effectively requires transgender people to be sterilized before they can have their gender changed on official documents. The court said the law is constitutional because it was meant to reduce confusion in families and society. But it acknowledged that it restricts freedom and could become out of step with changing social values. The 2004 law states that people wishing to register a gender change must have their original reproductive organs, including testes or ovaries, removed and have a body that “appears to have parts that resemble the genital organs” of the gender they want to register. The unanimous decision by a four-judge panel, published Thursday, rejected an appeal by Takakito Usui, a transgender man who said forced sterilization violates the right to self-determination and is unconstitutional. Usui, 45, had appealed to the top court after he unsuccessfully requested lower courts to grant him legal recognition as male without having his female reproductive glands surgically removed. Despite the unanimous decision, presiding justice Mamoru Miura joined another justice in saying that while the law may not violate the constitution, “doubts are undeniably emerging,” according to Usui’s lawyer, Tomoyasu Oyama. The two judges proposed regular reviews of the law and appropriate measures “from the viewpoint of respect for personality and individuality,” according to Japanese media reports. The Supreme Court decision ended Usui’s legal battle, but he and his lawyer said the opinions in the ruling left them with hope. “I think the ruling could lead to a next step,” Usui told a news conference. “I hope to find what constitutes a family of my own that does not fit the traditional mold.” Human Rights Watch said the Supreme Court ruling was “incompatible with international human rights standards, goes against the times and deviates far from best global practices.” The New York-based group said the ruling tolerates grave human rights violations against transgender people. There is a growing awareness of sexual diversity in Japan, but it is often superficial and generally limited to the entertainment industry. In a country where pressure for conformity is strong, many LGBTQ people hide their sexuality even from their families because of a fear of prejudice at home, school or work.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Feb 11 16:35:00 Its a good idea. Criminals and welfare leaches should also be sterilized in addition to the mentally ill. Smart people should be encouraged to have more kids.
Forwyn Member	Mon Feb 11 16:44:50 Can you imagine the screeching if the child tax credit were doubled for those with a household income of say, 3x the poverty rate or more?
smart dude Member	Mon Feb 11 23:55:00 Everyone will call this transphobic, but is it really? I read this and think, "Yeah, want to change your gender? Fine, do it. And we'll even acknowledge it."
Seb Member	Tue Feb 12 02:40:43 Not clear to me why the removal of ovaries/testes should be a requirement of the law to recognise change here. How are natural hermaphrodites legally considered in Japan?
Seb Member	Tue Feb 12 02:46:18 Is not transphobic so much as weirdly and creepily authoritarian for the state to insist on specific and invasive changes beyond what is needed to recognise what is a matter of identity. Sam: Ya! Zero sterilization ov ze untermensch is ze final solution to ze problem of poverty!
smart dude Member	Tue Feb 12 03:56:52 "Poverty is good." -Seb, 2019
smart dude Member	Tue Feb 12 03:59:48 Nobody's forcing anyone to get their balls chopped off. And as far as identity goes. Well, if I'm a missing person and my official documents say "female" and I get lost in the woods and they find my mangled corpse and can't identify my face anymore and they see I've got manparts, well, the authorities will keep looking for me because this dead body they just found obviously isn't a woman.
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 08:39:39 Japan being Japan. Stupidity. ""Poverty is good." -Seb, 2019" Poverty might not but poor people are good for the economy.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Feb 12 08:42:40 "Not clear to me why the removal of ovaries/testes should be a requirement of the law to recognise change here. " To reduce the mentally ill breeding, retard.
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 08:51:08 Like you`?
Forwyn Member	Tue Feb 12 12:49:31 Some people look at headlines like, "Man gives birth" and applaud.
Pillz Member	Tue Feb 12 13:19:07 How far along is your boyfriend in his transition neverwoods?
hood Member	Tue Feb 12 13:24:24 I really can't find myself caring either way about this. Japan made a ruling and right within that ruling said that it was holding up cultural norms. It then admitted that those norms might be shifting (tacitly admitting that the ruling/law might need to change). Ok, fine. Whatever.
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 13:24:31 Good questions. Do you still suck dick for a living?
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 13:34:05 People can be whatever they want to be, it does not bother me. If they want to be called he, she or apache, It's none of my business. This is the same argument as with gay marriage or being gay. it's none of anyone's business.
McKobb Member	Tue Feb 12 14:41:51 It doesn't matter what they want to be called as long as I don't have to call them what they are not.
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 14:46:41 https://gmoawareness.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/glyphosate_roundup_wheat_gluten_celiac_samsel-seneff.pdf Glyphosate is used to spray non-organic crops so they don't dry up. It has been linked to Celiac, gluten sensitivity, and irritable bowel syndrome
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 14:47:02 wrong tread...
NeverWoods Member	Tue Feb 12 14:50:27 McKobb: I am sure they give a fuck about you too.
McKobb Member	Tue Feb 12 14:59:24 I identify as right.
hood Member	Tue Feb 12 15:18:38 Sadly the ladies don't agree.
McKobb Member	Tue Feb 12 15:30:21 That's Mister to them :P
Sam Adams Member	Tue Feb 12 17:46:33 "it's none of anyone's business." Now do the same thing with guns and money.
jergul large member	Wed Feb 13 00:31:32 Seb Ze final solution to ze poverty question. Its an important paraphrase to get right. Never has the banality of state sanction evil been characterized to concisely.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 05:26:59 "Now do the same thing with guns and money." Ok, make a good reason for it and I will agree.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 13 06:22:01 Sam: Guns are a threat to others. Describing yourself and living as a woman when you have testes isn't. As for money, sure. I've think you should pay zero tax, provided you don't use any public property, benefit from public goods, or have recourse to public services (including police and courts).
Seb Member	Wed Feb 13 06:22:40 Which should also the monetary system itself.
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 09:06:32 Karen White/Stephen Wood was a threat (#metoo) in and out of prison. A worm in the apple can poison the potential for the entire fruit. Potential threats lurk unrealized. Just ask Julia Beck who is a lesbian. Maybe Japan has it right. We live on a sphere with millions of worms.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 13 13:17:37 TJ: I'm not sure that's anything but a non sequitur. Was he/she a threat because she was a transexual? And if not a transexual, would that make him not a threat? And if we look at all the cis male rapists in jail that continue to assault people in jail, would that prove men are threatening and need to have their penises and testes regulated by the state?
Sam Adams Member	Wed Feb 13 13:53:35 "Guns are a threat to others" Mentally ill welfare leaches are a threat to others
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 13:53:52 Seb: It was suggested to be an awareness that all humans are potentially under threat from other humans. No more and no less than unsavory humans exist in every identity and situation that create problems. That isn't a maybe and I didn't provide either position any advantage in the discussion. Non sequitur it is if the threat wasn't in line with the following comment. Humans disagree within all groupings. "Guns are a threat to others. Describing yourself and living as a woman when you have testes isn't." Degrees of threats are certainly debatable if that had been the language. Don't mind me being unnecessarily picky.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 14:00:23 "It was suggested to be an awareness that all humans are potentially under threat from other humans." What is this reasoning? I really don't understand this kind of circular reasoning you have. If you find humans as a potential threat then why do you want to arm said threat with weapons?
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 14:02:32 But it's interesting that someone sexual identity is a threat to you. Can you explain what how is a man identifying as a woman a threat, to you or anyone else?
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 14:09:31 NW: Comprehension of language can be faulty at times. I don't arm anyone and I certainly don't want a dangerous person to be armed. Wouldn't it be wonderful if every dangerous person had it tattooed across their forehead. All problems solved. You missed the point entirely.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 14:19:09 I Don't get your point. "all humans are potentially under threat from other humans." Explain that, in the context of gender roles, so I can understand what you are talking about.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 14:23:23 When you talk you like to use a lot of normative claims and not fallow it with any descriptive claims.
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 14:37:14 I provided an example of a lesbian(Julia Beck)who think they are a threat to women. Do what you wish with that little tidbit. Not once have I said they are a threat to me. Not once have I said that anyone is a threat to me. People aren't always what they claim to be is the potential I speak of and you are changing the context of my posts.
NeverWoods Member	Wed Feb 13 14:45:48 I don't know who Julia Beck is or why she thinks she is a threat to women or how she can be a threat. mind giving up some context for someone that is not in the loop?
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 15:54:37 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbzPthhj6vI You might not like the link, but it is straight from her mouth and not an others perception. A potential danger to the alphabet of preference differences. BTW, she doesn't believe she is a danger to women. She believes there is danger with the ease of claiming a transgender identity. No need for me to say anything additional.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 13 18:13:01 TJ: I don't think it's a good analogy. A hand gun is a device designed to kill VC and injure people. Meanwhile, it's not the act of identifying or describing yourself as a gender that differs from your biological sex that posses a threat to above elses body. The fact that someone who chooses to identify or describe themselves *may also* pose a threat to others for entirely different reasons (but to no more a degree than a person who does not so identify or describe themselves so) seems rather unconnected.
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 18:31:11 Seb: You grouped them as one being a threat and the other not a threat. I've already admitted the degree is obviously debatable. Threat covers a lot of ground. There are a myriad of threats and all have a statistical value. Both defensively and aggressively. I also said not to pay any mind to me being picky in the discussion. Personally, I have no qualms about how someone chooses to identify themselves.
Seb Member	Wed Feb 13 18:59:00 TJ: I'm sorry, I can't follow your kind of argument. I cannot see at all the threat to body that describing yourself as a gender opposite to your biological sex could pose. I don't see this as a question of degree, and the only argument you've made so far seems to hinge on the threat an individual might pose for entirely unrelated reasons. Julia Becks line is similarly flawed. Being transexual doesn't make people sexual predators. A man pretending to be gay to lul a woman into a false sense of security wouldn't lead us to call for reintroducing laws criminalising homosexuality. So I'm really not following your point at all.
TJ Member	Wed Feb 13 19:51:37 Seb: My contribution in this thread had nothing to do with any similarity of any kind of an analogy between guns and gender identity. Nothing anywhere near equal was presented by me. It is time for us to agree to disagree. What little interest I had in this thread has been totally depleted. I have more interest in other things than repeating myself. What I find most disturbing is that you and I have very little difference in our view of this subject. "I cannot see at all the threat to body that describing yourself as a gender opposite to your biological sex could pose." It is clear you can not see any threat to body or bodies.
jergul large member	Wed Feb 13 23:47:17 Seb Japanese law currently requires skin in the game so to speak, so would lessen the ease at which predatory gender identification would take place. But you could make the same argument about being nice. Women are often fooled by that. I wonder how many predators emulate niceness to achieve their goals. We should obviously sterilize nice people. Thankfully, it will impact on no one in this forum.
TJ Member	Thu Feb 14 02:19:13 jergul: "Women are often fooled by that." Men, women, and children of all ages and identities can be fooled by niceties when not actually genuine. People are fooled everyday by acts of kindness from deviants and psychopaths, not just women. No threats to the body or bodies, eh? The lead topic in this thread is a major threat to transgenders in Japan. How about forced surgery when they aren't certain, ready or can't afford? You think that is a threat to their body and mental stability? An impersonator is also a threat to them from a public perspective. Here is where Seb and I disagreed. "Describing yourself and living as a woman when you have testes isn't."(a threat was the context) There are threats to the transgender. When a lesbian, and there are plenty who seem to agree with her, is against a letter in the soup it places all of them in greater danger of being accepted outside of the bowl. Perception is reality. Out of sight out of mind. Ordinarily I wouldn't give a thread of this nature the time of day. I didn't read in the OP that Japan was covering the expense. Threats galore...
Seb Member	Thu Feb 14 04:01:16 TJ: When I say I don't follow your argument, I mean it literally. I do not understand what it is you are trying to say: it is formulated in a somewhat indirect manner that does not convey to me in an unambiguous way whatever it is you mean. Sam was making a clear analogy "if you think personal autonomy should be respected, apply it to guns and money". The point I made was guns pose a threat to others people, whereas how people identify do not. I am frankly lost as to your point about degrees of threat. As I read your post, it seemed to disagree with the idea that someone's personal identification posed some degree of threat, and you cited the case of the transexual woman who assaulted a woman in jail. Now if I've got the wrong end of the stick in terms of your point, I'm happy to be corrected. If on the other hand we disagree as to whether a transexual poses a specifically elevated threat by simple virtue of being transexual, then that's a fairly straightforward disagreement.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 14 04:05:35 Jergul: I'm not convinced predatory sexual identification exists (that people specifically change gender as a tactic to maximise their ability to predate). To the extent there are examples (in the single figures), there's no reason someone can't be both transexual *and* a rapist. But it feels somewhat like finding someone who is both homosexual and a paedophile to justify treating all gay men as posing an elevated threat and banning then from teaching. Which I'm sure you agree with, but might as well make the point given you've set me up for it.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 14 04:18:19 TJ: "How about forced surgery when they aren't certain, ready or can't afford?" But isn't this an argument that the law poses harm? If anything it makes it more important to justify in terms of the public good the law provides to offset the requirement to take irreversible steps. "An impersonator is also a threat to them from a public perspective" And again, how realistic is this? There are a handful of cases, and no reason to think said individuals were motivated in their attack by having undergone reassignment, had undergone reassignment in order to ease their attacks, and would not have attacked someone if they hadn't had the option of changing gender. There is certainly an argument about how one handles transexual un the context of activities that are usually sex segregated, and how one handles risk management policies where sex segregation has been a standard approach. But: a. this isn't unusual - if you have a particularly dangerous woman who has a history of sexual abuse of other women, prisons will adopt enhanced measures to manage the elevated risk she poses. b. Again, I think the Japanese law seems on balance to create more problems than it solves if it's motivated by if not outright mythical, then certainly vanishingly rare if not unique sexual predators using transexuality as a tactic.
NeverWoods Member	Thu Feb 14 05:44:48 TJ: I am sorry if you feel I mischaracterized your argument but it is hard to follow you at times as you tend to use normative claims. I saw the video but don't think it belongs in the argument. It's anecdotes of aggressive people that use abuse the system. It has nothing to do with gender roles. I agree with sebs argument on this. I won't repeat what he said.
TJ Member	Thu Feb 14 11:19:40 Seb: I have told you I was being picky multiple times in this thread. NW: Could you explain the definition you are applying toward my argumentative claims being normative? It seems I'm making abnormal claims and spending unnecessary energy simply to be normative, whatever that actually means from your perspective. My position has always been about threats and not similarities associating levels into some weirdly arranged analogy claiming to be equal. I firmly believe in freedom and have spent the better half of my time defending transgender in this thread. There has been no attempt from me trying to bust anyone's ego, mental stability OR testicles. Is that a normative claim? My box isn't that small, but the responses I've received from my posts seem absurd and irrational from my perspective. Obviously this thread has been a total waste of my time. Live and learn...
NeverWoods Member	Thu Feb 14 13:44:00 Yeah sure. At times I have to guess what you are trying to say, you rarely layout something that is more concrete and to the point but rather hint at it. This makes it difficult to pin your argument. This is how I feel and I could very well so be wrong, as I just got back to this place from a few years exodus. I should try to read what you are saying better.
TJ Member	Thu Feb 14 20:13:17 NW: Don't guess, it is better to ignore. If what I post doesn't click with you it wasn't meant to be. The only thing that is important is what you think, understand, and respond accordingly. I do want you to understand this though: I realize that life isn't all about me. Welcome back to UP.
PhunkyPhishStyle Member	Sat Feb 23 10:10:11 “The court said the law is constitutional because it was meant to reduce confusion in families and society. ” - Japan is not like the west. It’s not surprising to see family/society taking higher importance over the individual here, particularly in a society with pretty clearly defined and deeply rooted gender roles.
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