Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Tue Mar 26 17:07:05 2019

Utopia Talk / Politics / Cohen testimony
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Feb 26 23:40:52
CNN has Cohen's opening statement, been going through some of it

“He is a racist. He is a conman. He is a cheat.”


some of the new revelations:

Trump had Cohen arrange for a bidder to bid on a Trump portrait at auction and make sure it sold for more money than any other portrait
(...EXTREME mental illness)

and this is the portrait for which Trump then used his charity money to improperly pay for


Cohen also has letters sent to schools/universities threatening to not show Trump's grades / SAT score :p so presumably not too good
(and recall Trump heavily criticized Obama for not sharing grades)


so he's a stupid mentally-ill child... as he demonstrates regularly


there's also more significant allegations... like Trump knowing Stone was talking to wikileaks (as is not surprising)... Don Jr telling Trump about the Tower meeting (as is obvious would happen, plus Trump announced a speech on new Hillary dirt just days before meeting)... a personal check from Trump for the mistress payoffs... meh, we'll see tomorrow what all comes out (if he has not been successfully intimidated or whacked by Trump's goon squad)
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Wed Feb 27 00:41:21
Getting the Popcorn ready.
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 01:36:20
There is no legal way for schools/universities to release his grades anyway so not sure why a letter needed to be sent.

And if it can't be collaborated I wouldn't put much stock in what Cohen has to say. After all Cohen is a known and convicted liar.

As always though we should wait and see.
Daemon
Member
Wed Feb 27 02:40:34
Would make things easy if If Cohen would be the only liar, but Trump is a known pathological liar, so we must hope that they have some documents to back up their claims.
McKobb
Member
Wed Feb 27 09:29:41
Trump hiding out with a pint sized dictator while he's getting red assed!

Oh my :P
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 11:18:49
nice to see kargen already assuming everything is a lie... after all, he's already going to prison in part for lying to Congress, but obviously lying again will reduce his sentence and not raise it right?

also he has the letters, it's not just 'he said'


I just started watching it... unfortunately Jordan and Meadows are on the panel, they along with Gaetz and Nunes, were the 4 people known to have collaborated to smear Mueller and defend Trump in that recent NY Times article (and if you think 'fake news', just review everything they've ever said)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 11:32:26
opening statement "<angry> fuck all of you, I like beer! ... <crying> I like beer...."
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 11:41:51
a pretty good opening, labels Trump racist, conman and cheat then goes over each with claims and documents

ha, there's even a tweet of Trump bragging that his portrait sold for the most money... get him into an asylum quick, name the asylum after him and he'll be fine with it
hood
Member
Wed Feb 27 12:03:23
To not casually throw the term and, Trump is a sociopath. Clinically diagnosable antisocial personality disorder. And not the fun kind.
hood
Member
Wed Feb 27 12:18:08
"throw the term and"

Around*
I hate phone autocorrect most of the time.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 12:25:17
check malignant narcissism too


Capo Jordan tried to declare Cohen was lying about everything because he's angry he didn't get a job in the White House, but Cohen seems to have backup suggesting he didn't want a job there (a convo with Reince and a memo)
hood
Member
Wed Feb 27 12:31:13
Narcissism is a component of sociopathy. A heavy component, actually. So heavy that if you take away the narcissistic aspects, sociopathy is difficult to distinguish from a generic pothead.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 12:58:04
and sociopathy is a component of 'malignant narcissism'

mere sociopathy and narcissism would be a component of many leaders... Trump takes it to the extreme
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 13:16:40
so far, I can only recommend watching Cohens opening statement (although it's lengthy)

from what I've seen so far, Dem questions haven't exposed much additional

and Rs are all just smearing him, even though all his claims sound like what Trump would do, there is document back-up for some of it, and it is now known fact Trump lied about business dealings in Russia and knowledge of the mistress payoffs
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 13:34:22
addition to recommendations:
- Jim Cooper (D) had a good exchange (at around 12:05pm EST)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 13:35:08
(all of Jim Cooper's 5 mins, not that specific point)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 14:02:09
Krishnamoorthi asked him if there were more crimes being investigated that were not public yet and Cohen said yes (he can't talk about them so we won't get details)

But Hooray! :p
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 16:33:26
I missed some in the middle but also can recommend Alexandria Ocasio Cortez near the end.... she did a good job for a newbie going into Trumps tax fraud (devaluing property)

I can recommend no Rs, who had no interest in learning anything, but if you want to hear how Trumps long time lawyer and associate is garbage, go ahead

as one D noted, in mob trials you still rely on testimony from garbage people, you don't just assume they are incapable of truth (and everyone who associates with Trump is garbage, that shouldn't innoculate him)
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 17:12:01
"going into Trumps tax fraud"

He was audited by the IRS and presumably he is okay to go?

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 17:41:33
yeah, audited... according to Trump... very good source

Cohen actually testified he doubted the audit existed as he requested paperwork to use to defend the claims to the press and was given none (same for the bone spurs)

plus an audit doesn't mean every bad act is uncovered
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 17:55:55
Better source than Cohen. Remember Cohen has been found guilty of lying. He is going to jail for it. Cohen is known for saying whatever the hell he wants to help himself out.

And not sure but wouldn't you think someone at the IRS would have denied the audit claim if it didn't happen?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 18:04:34
who would deny it? If Joe's not working on it, doesn't mean Mary isn't... and no one has confirmed it either

plus Cohen IS actually a better source as he was under oath and Trump can't speak without lying... Cohen lying now just adds more prison time with no gain, Trump lies daily with no consequence.

Cohen gets no reduced sentence unless he helps an investigation, a lie isn't going to help... whereas Fox News and the Rs will be working overtime trying to prove he lied to get him more prison time (And his capos doing it to intimidate other witnesses)

Also. if Cohen was there to lie he could've weaved a lot more damning tales.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 18:11:36
to correct my OP, apparently Trump improperly used his charity money to buy at least 2 portraits of himself so I don't think that mentally ill purchase (making sure it went for more money than other portraits) was the same one we already knew about
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 18:41:43
"plus Cohen IS actually a better source as he was under oath"

yeah that worked out so well in the past. Remind me again what he is going to jail for...oh yeah lying under oath is one of the convictions.

Cohen isn't being treated as a cooperating witness. His time to serve is pretty much set.

And if he could lie better he wouldn't be going to jail for it now.

Cohen is doing what he thinks best for himself. He always has. Toss in people supposedly involved in some of the actions he testified today have said he is still lying. Isn't he said he said but he said several said.

I'd bet money on him lying several times today. He might have snuck a bit of truth in there somewhere?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 18:47:29
yes I'm aware he lied to congress, I heard it from every R today and already knew it

but how well did that work out for him?


"Cohen is doing what he thinks best for himself."

Lying again would be what's best for him? How does that work?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 18:51:06
I did miss some, but of all the Rs I saw pointing out his crimes and lies to impeach his credibility, none felt necessary to claim he cheated on his wife, so here's hoping Rep Gaetz faces legal action for his clear threat/intimidation
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 19:40:18
Probably a little better than last time. He is already going to jail. Now he is just trying to blame someone else for his going to jail. Again.

and not much has changed in 35+ years.

http://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1982/11/28
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Wed Feb 27 23:08:18
Trump Org's Chief Operating Officer... (or mob enforcer)

video of incoherent goon:
http://twitter.com/jbillinson/status/1100900733958934528
kargen
Member
Wed Feb 27 23:54:11
Nice! A 15 year old 45 second clip of a guy getting nervous on a reality television show. Can't get more relevant than that.

You convinced me. Cohen has never told a lie in his life and is an Eagle Scout.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 00:20:55
that wasn't directed at you... or terribly related to Cohen, just found it amusing

your views are not normal nor reasonable & i don't expect to ever convince you of anything
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 00:59:54
"your views are not normal nor reasonable & i don't expect to ever convince you of anything"

You were looking in the mirror when you wrote that weren't you.
Hrothgar
Member
Thu Feb 28 01:49:46
Trumps term is going to be over before all this shit is half sorted out.
chuck
Member
Thu Feb 28 05:27:01
kargen with the classic "I don't like or defend Trump but literally every post I make will be trying to make some excuse for Trump."

The Republicans asking questions in that committee know exactly who they're dealing with in the White House. Almost no questions (Amash being the exception I remember), just hours of:

- "you're a convicted liar"
- "who is paying your attorney fees" conspiracy mongering
- "will you swear you'll never take money from a book deal? No? Ha, gotcha!" that they hoped would imply more than it did.


Raskin pretty well diagnosed the situation:

"Our colleagues aren't upset because you lied to Congress for the president. They're upset because you've stopped lying to Congress for the president."
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 11:02:04
Cohen also had a good moment, i think during the Jim Cooper questioning, of noting all the R's were doing just what Cohen used to do in defending the undeserving unfit mentally-ill criminal child
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 11:17:16
"kargen with the classic "I don't like or defend Trump but literally every post I make will be trying to make some excuse for Trump.""

Not defending President Trump the same way I wasn't defending President Obama when people tried to insist he wasn't a citizen so couldn't be president. Just pointing out the truth that to this point we have no proof he has done anything illegal or worthy of having him removed from office through impeachment.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 11:37:46
you always have the Trump/Fox News line, so yeah, you're always defending Trump

(Obama didn't require defending about being a citizen as there was never an indication he wasn't one)

and i have a lot of proof Trump's done illegal things & w/ heaps more things suggesting he needs removed from office

-open door obstruction of justice plus more behind closed doors

-tax fraud (lying to reduce property taxes, + his schemes w/ acquiring his father's fortune)
-business fraud (all the false claims the Trumps make to investors + how Cohen repaid w/ fake invoices)
-consumer fraud (Trump U)
-charity fraud (misuse of funds)

plus from Cohen, there's evidence/indication of
- bank fraud (including documents)
- insurance fraud (possibly/hopefully part of the many crimes for which Trump under investigation)

(and he's an unindicted co-conspirator in two of Cohen's felonies)

---------------

regarding Cohen, Trump raises a good point...

“He lied a lot, but it was very interesting, because he didn’t lie about one thing. He said no collusion with the Russian hoax. And I said, ‘I wonder why he didn’t just lie about that too, like he lied about everything else.’”


of course, Trump's lying (shock!) as Cohen did NOT testify there was no collusion, but he didn't claim there was
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 11:45:11
"(Obama didn't require defending about being a citizen as there was never an indication he wasn't one)"
Didn't stop people from making the claim. When they did I pointed out they were wrong. Just like I help you by pointing out when you are wrong thinking you have proof President Trump has done something warranting his removal from office.

Your list is a list of at this time unproven accusations mostly made by someone that has been found guilty of lying under oath.

"(and he's an unindicted co-conspirator in two of Cohen's felonies)"

You cling tight to that belief I know it is what helps keep you sane. Truth is different laws apply to the candidate and the courts recognized that. Do you have a therapist on call for when the Mueller report comes out? I fear you are going to need one.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 11:54:23
only the last two accusations involve Cohen... and he gave documents on one

and they aren't unproven
-the obstruction is obvious to those who aren't in the tank for Trump
-Trump U was shut down in disgrace & successfully sued
-Trump's charity has been shut down in disgrace as well
-& there is proof of the improper repayments to Cohen... he brought the checks... signed by Weisselberg, Don Jr & Trump himself... so all involved (& Giuliani admitted they did it)


SDNY is still investigating his crimes, i'm very confident we'll get more proof


i still have no idea what you're clinging to about the candidate being different... even if Trump paid with his personal funds (WHICH HE DID NOT) he still would have to declare it (WHICH HE DID NOT)

1 Cohen felony: Cohen getting Pecker to pay for one mistress w/ promise of repayment... who do you think Pecker was hanging his trust on? Pecker & Trump are known allies, w/ Pecker killing other stories as well

that same logic seems to easily apply to the other payment (Cohen paying w/ expectation of Trump repayment... & he -did- get repayment w/ bonus)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 11:57:39
...& there was a year long investigation by reporters about his fraud in acquiring Fred Trump's money

plus extensive reporting on some of his other fraud... you can claim not 'proof' but they haven't been discredited in any way either
(w/ some confirmed as in his charity's termination)
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Thu Feb 28 11:59:24
Breaking: Trump Had Prior Knowledge Of Wikileaks - Cohen Testifies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1itMF_BYeU
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 12:07:32
"and they aren't unproven"

So you can link an official ruling on obstruction. I anticipate reading that soon.

THe charity was a disgrace. It was shut down. Not a reason for removal from office through impeachment.
Law suits happen. Again no reason for removal of office from impeachment.
You are right there are improper payments to Cohen. The court ruled it was Cohen who misrepresented on invoices he submitted by putting false statements on the invoices. Part of the reason he is going to jail. He is trying to blame someone else for his fuck-up just like he tried to blame an accountant for his tax problems. THe court didn't buy his statement when he told them so not sure why congress should accept them now.

The payments come down to intent. Were the payments to keep from embarrassing the family or to help the campaign? Depends on who you are listening to and so far no court has ruled on that. If there were earlier payments to other women that would support President Trump's reasoning. I've not heard of any so like so many other things it is a wait and see situation.

You are assuming guilty with the burden being for President Trump to prove his innocence. That isn't how it works. Until proven guilty he is presumed innocent. That means as of now there is nothing legally that warrants President trump being removed from office through impeachment.

The reason I keep saying through impeachment is because in two years we get to decide if he has done something that should keep him from getting four more years.
hood
Member
Thu Feb 28 12:11:59
And there goes kargen "not a trump supporter -winkwink-" moving the goal posts.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 12:16:56
as the President can't be indicted, not sure how you expect there to ever be a ruling... who is doing this ruling?

Cohen faced no crime over those invoices that i'm aware of, not sure where you got that & it makes no sense at all that the Trump Org had no idea why Cohen submitted fake invoices... yet they paid them anyway...


"embarrassing the family or to help the campaign"

it was to help the campaign... Cohen wouldn't have been convicted, if not... Pecker & Weisselberg both got immunity solely to nail Cohen on these crimes... we don't know the evidence they had from those people to prove it was to help the campaign but it was more than Cohen admitting it
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 15:04:30
sounds like Weisselberg (CFO of Trump org) may get brought in

i wonder how they'll smear him... perhaps: 'this man has been working for Trumps since the 1970's, obviously he can't be trusted'
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 15:13:32
"Cohen faced no crime over those invoices that i'm aware of,"

was part of the evidence.

Trump Org isn't necessarily Trump as you well know.

"it was to help the campaign... Cohen wouldn't have been convicted, if not..."

according to Cohen that was the reason. He was convicted for how he handled it.

hood not moving the goal posts just clearing up why I kept adding remove through impeachment. Goal post is the same. If the Democrats want to impeach and remove President Trump they will have to find something so damning that the Republicans in the Senate decide well we can't have that shit happening.
Nothing changed there. Was just adding that in a couple of years we get to decide for ourselves if this was bad or not. I know I am wasting my time here responding to you because you can't comprehend for shit but what the hell I gave it a try.
hood
Member
Thu Feb 28 15:20:56
I'm not the one having difficulty comprehend tumble's arguments. You clearly don't get them, as you moved the goal posts from one of his arguments to the other.
hood
Member
Thu Feb 28 15:21:17
Comprehending*
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 15:24:49
"according to Cohen that was the reason"

nope, not just Cohen, but i tell you the same things repeatedly & you come back w/ the same things repeatedly so who cares

you won't believe Trump has done anything wrong until he signs a confession w/ his giant marker
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 16:02:05
meh, i'll lay it out again and in detail & you can ignore again & say it's only Cohen's word


Pecker & Weisselberg (both given immunity to get the details on these payoffs)

- we know Weisselberg is involved as Trump & Cohen mention his name when discussing how to do one payoff (ON TAPE... hopefully you're still not claiming Trump had no knowledge)... plus he's one signing checks to repay Cohen for that matter

- we know Pecker is involved as he -made- one of the illegal payments

let's focus just on Pecker as easier... one Cohen felony is for getting Pecker to pay the Playmate... that is ONLY a crime if it was -for the campaign-

that means Pecker MUST HAVE admitted that was the purpose, he was granted immunity solely to be questioned about it, he has to answer the questions honestly, if he said otherwise, that would be noted & it would not be a crime

we don't have their actual statements (afaik) or the contract to pay Pecker (that we know Feds got in the raid) or anything else concrete as Cohen pleaded guilty so no trial... but why did Cohen plead guilty?... because they had the solid evidence
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 16:07:01
whereas your argument appears to be Cohen lied about the reason for the payoffs & provided the only evidence the prosecution had, as Cohen wanted two more felonies on his record & additional punishment just to stick it to Trump... even though his fans don't care at all about it
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 16:29:13
new info:

Felix Sater (convicted Russian mobster & Trump adviser... w/ office on the same floor as Trump in Trump Tower) will have public testimony March 14

for the record, this is a different Russian mobster than the one who ran an illegal gambling ring out of Trump Tower

i'd hate to mix up all the Russian mobsters operating out of Trump Tower
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 17:14:16
"you won't believe Trump has done anything wrong until he signs a confession w/ his giant marker"

That isn't true at all. I am saying so far there is nothing solid and proven that shows he has done something illegal. I've admitted he has done quite a bit I would consider unethical but there is a difference in legal and ethical.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 18:40:32
so you believe he's frequently unethical and that he frequently lies and that he hires unethical liars, but it's no cause for concern nor reason to suspect he's committed crimes despite the heaps of evidence swirling around
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 19:53:13
Not what I said either. You are getting good at this. Maybe you should apply for the program Channel 4 News as an interviewer.
chuck
Member
Thu Feb 28 19:57:06
"Your list is a list of at this time unproven accusations mostly made by someone that has been found guilty of lying under oath."

The parable of kargen the detective:

"We can't book em, Dann-o. He's not been convicted. It's his constitutional right not to be suspected until he's been convicted."

Fin

---

"Just pointing out the truth that to this point we have no proof he has done anything illegal"

Yadda yadda yadda, persumption of innocence and all that, but "innocent until proven guilty" does not mean "do anything in your power to prevent investigations into him".

Reasonable suspicion warrants an investigation. You gather proof in an investigation. What reasonable sounding noise can you make to justify the Republicans whistling past the Trump graveyard for two years. Yesterday's Republican performances were a perfect example of political expediency uber alles.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 21:00:57
what part of my assessment is incorrect?

you just said he does a lot of unethical things

your defense of his constant lying wasn't that he isn't lying but that what he says and what he tweets doesn't matter

his hires/associates include Cohen, Omarosa, Roger Stone, Manafort, Don Jr. (all unethical liars)

yet you see no reason to question his fitness for office

and on crimes you always dismiss evidence
kargen
Member
Thu Feb 28 21:42:09
"Reasonable suspicion warrants an investigation."

And it is happening.

You probably missed it from the hundred other threads but tumble has already proclaimed him guilty and ready for removal from office.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 21:47:36
here's another reason for which on its own he should be removed:

his advisers: Hannity, Putin, MBS, Erdogan, Netanyahu... all ranking above our own intel community

Kim Jong Un probably ranks above too because of the love letters


people joked about how he was susceptible to flattery... but he is -really- fucking susceptible to flattery... to a dangerous degree
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Feb 28 22:03:02
"And it is happening."

so presumably you hate all the Rs who had no interest in oversight when in charge and no interest now with many trying to get any and all investigations shut down (especially capos Jordan, Meadows, Gaetz and Nunes, plus boss Trump himself)
show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message:
Bookmark and Share